Temporal Mastery

[MaximumCDawg]

@Wagner - Yes, it is both more work and negative card advantage.  Exactly the same way Vampiric Tutor is negative card advantage while Demonic is not.

This is misleading.  It simply is not less card advantage than Time Walk.  If by "more work" you mean Demonic Tutor won't cut it, then that's true.  On the other hand, though, this downside is somewhat canceled out by the fact that it can be played as an instant whereas Time Walk cannot.  As far as CA though, they are EXACTLY the same.  It is no different than Vamping for a Time Walk.

Oi, oi, oi.  If you put Time Walk on the top of your library and cast it once you draw it, then of course it's the same.  If Time Walk is in your hand, however, it generates CA.  You never want Temporal Mastery in your hand, and you have to use another card to put it on top of your library.  For all practical purposes YOU WILL NEVER CAST THIS UNLESS IT IS OFF THE TOP.  Thus you will always be replacing another draw with this card.

[Commandant]

Meh. Situational difficult to setup for marginal benefits. Meh.

[Wagner]

@Wagner - Yes, it is both more work and negative card advantage.  Exactly the same way Vampiric Tutor is negative card advantage while Demonic is not.

This is misleading.  It simply is not less card advantage than Time Walk.  If by "more work" you mean Demonic Tutor won't cut it, then that's true.  On the other hand, though, this downside is somewhat canceled out by the fact that it can be played as an instant whereas Time Walk cannot.  As far as CA though, they are EXACTLY the same.  It is no different than Vamping for a Time Walk.

Oi, oi, oi.  If you put Time Walk on the top of your library and cast it once you draw it, then of course it's the same.  If Time Walk is in your hand, however, it generates CA.  You never want Temporal Mastery in your hand, and you have to use another card to put it on top of your library.  For all practical purposes YOU WILL NEVER CAST THIS UNLESS IT IS OFF THE TOP.  Thus you will always be replacing another draw with this card.

Yes, most of these draws will be Brainstorm or Top draws, which do not create card disadvantage either. Also, if Time Walk is in your hand, it DOES NOT generate CA, I'm not sure how you're not getting this. It generates tempo, yes, but not CA.


Also... I just had a weird idea.

How about Portent? You know, that crappy Ponder that makes you draw at the opponent's turn... Of course I'm not saying all decks just start packing Portents, but a deck designed for this card could very well do.

[meadbert]

I do not see Noxious Revival, Mystical Tutor or Ancestral Knowledge making this card great because of the card disadvantage.
Mystical Tutor can at least find Brainstorm to shuffle away some of these, but there will still usually be better tutor targets.

Jace seems the best use, but you need to have ways to get it out of your hand.  Imagine having 2 of these in an opening hand.
Such a hand will be challenged to even resolve Jace in the first place.

[TheWhiteDragon]

How about Portent? You know, that crappy Ponder that makes you draw at the opponent's turn... Of course I'm not saying all decks just start packing Portents, but a deck designed for this card could very well do.

1) I think what Cdog is saying is that when walk is in your hand, you draw a new card, cast walk, then draw another new card.  When Miracle is in your hand it's dead, and if you cast it off the top, you are only drawing 1 new card (but then you have 1 extra card already in hand - and if you cast this on opponents turn, you still get 2 fresh draws)

2) I LOVE portent, and have for a very long time.  I used portents over ponders for quite a while in my oath deck before jace simply because I could A) shuffle my library, then use sensei top to set up my draw, then draw the card and B) screw my opponents next 2-3 draws.  Now that jace can fateseal and brainstorm though, it's less novel to have portents.  Portent was also nice when you had 8 cards and cast it and could start your next turn with 9 cards after draw for shenanigans.

[Diakonov]

1) I think what Cdog is saying is that when walk is in your hand, you draw a new card, cast walk, then draw another new card.  When Miracle is in your hand it's dead, and if you cast it off the top, you are only drawing 1 new card (but then you have 1 extra card already in hand - and if you cast this on opponents turn, you still get 2 fresh draws)

That is the key right there.

I do not see Noxious Revival, Mystical Tutor or Ancestral Knowledge making this card great because of the card disadvantage.
Mystical Tutor can at least find Brainstorm to shuffle away some of these, but there will still usually be better tutor targets.

Jace seems the best use, but you need to have ways to get it out of your hand.  Imagine having 2 of these in an opening hand.
Such a hand will be challenged to even resolve Jace in the first place.

I agree with you.  I strongly doubt that this will see any serious play in Vintage.  It's just too dependent on funky tricks, and the effect doesn't have enough of an impact to make it worth building around.

[MaximumCDawg]

TheWhiteDragon is right, but you're missing an important step: many of the applications we're talking about in this thread require that you spend another card in your hand to get the Temporal Mastery on top.  A topdeck tutor, for example.  That's where you end up down a card on the transaction.

To the extent you can get the Mastery on top without sacrificing a card in your hand, or by doing something you wanted to do anyway, you're way ahead.  That's why the Diving Top play makes so much sense to me; you're manipulating the library repeatedly with a low-investment card that you're getting tons of mileage out of ANYWAY.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

It seems like all you need to accommodate this thing are the few JMTSs you'd be playing anyways, and MAYBE an extra top.
It might be a good idea to play full preordain as well... cuz you know, that's not something we'd like to do anyways as well.

This thing will see play, although I wouldn't want more than three, in Jace decks, and I like the idea of giving big blue different things to do.

I'm expecting the price to drop though.

[Oath of Happy]

Ok, so if you resolve a Jace and survice to your next turn with 2 or 3 of these loaded then you've won.  But, shouldn't you be using cards to help you resolve Jace and survive passing the turn after tapping 2UU in your main phase?

[Grand Inquisitor]

I strongly doubt that this will see any serious play in Vintage.  It's just too dependent on funky tricks

all you need to accommodate this thing are the few JMTSs you'd be playing anyways, and MAYBE an extra top.
It might be a good idea to play full preordain as well... cuz you know, that's not something we'd like to do anyways

At this point I'm leaning towards the latter.  The worst feeling in Vintage if you're playing anything besides shops is having an opponent play Time Walk with any kind of board presence.

If you cram 4x Bob, 4x Preordain/SDT, 4x Jace, TMS, 4x THIS into a shell with free counters, you're going to get something degenerate.  It severely boosts the number of openings where if the opponent doesn't stop 1-2 of your threats early it's automatically game over.

[Bibendum]

@Wagner - Yes, it is both more work and negative card advantage.  Exactly the same way Vampiric Tutor is negative card advantage while Demonic is not.

This is misleading.  It simply is not less card advantage than Time Walk.  If by "more work" you mean Demonic Tutor won't cut it, then that's true.  On the other hand, though, this downside is somewhat canceled out by the fact that it can be played as an instant whereas Time Walk cannot.  As far as CA though, they are EXACTLY the same.  It is no different than Vamping for a Time Walk.

Demonic tutor replaces itself, VT causes you to loose your next draw to gain this card, how is that not card disadvantage?

[MaximumCDawg]

Ok, so if you resolve a Jace and survice to your next turn with 2 or 3 of these loaded then you've won.  But, shouldn't you be using cards to help you resolve Jace and survive passing the turn after tapping 2UU in your main phase?

What I kinda like about this card is that, not only is it the nuts with Jace, but it helps you resolve Jace.  First, if you are able to activate it Turn 2 or 3, you can essentially ramp into Jace mana.  Second, if you need to hold mana open to protect yourself, this gives you a free untap phase to get the shield back up after Jace comes down.

Even so, I really think Top is where it's at.  Top is the only card that both finds and activates Mastery.  And you play it anyway.  What's not to love?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Ok, so if you resolve a Jace and survice to your next turn with 2 or 3 of these loaded then you've won.  But, shouldn't you be using cards to help you resolve Jace and survive passing the turn after tapping 2UU in your main phase?

Ever use time walk or untap time vault to help you resolve sorcery speed spells? because I sure have, its pretty insane. I'd imagine preordains, brainstorm and a top or two would be be pretty great at this with temporal mastery. Time walk is also pretty good for "winging a spell out there" and then untap to keep drains and such up.
These are kinda' the best things to do with walk aside from immediately killing someone.

Once you get jace on line its obviously good to time walk for extra cards even if you've got not much else going on, so idk why we're bring that up.

Maximumcdawg pretty much gets exactly what i'm talking about.

[TheWhiteDragon]

TheWhiteDragon is right, but you're missing an important step: many of the applications we're talking about in this thread require that you spend another card in your hand to get the Temporal Mastery on top.  A topdeck tutor, for example.  That's where you end up down a card on the transaction.

This is a bit misleading.  This is saying you are going to use a topdeck spell from hand to get Miracle on top...but then saying you won't need to do this to get timewalk?  Assuming the cards both take the same slot in your deck, you can't assume you'd need to tutor for this, but not tutor for walk because it will be in your hand.

The card advantage is equal except in the case where miracle ends up in your hand.  Then timewalk is more castable.  But when their casting costs are the same, they both take a turn and replace themself.  You can't assume you will use a topdeck tutor to get this, but not need the tutor to likewise get timewalk...that's apples and oranges.  If you noxious revival either one on top, the CA is the same...if you topdeck tutor for either one of these, the CA is the same.  If you have to topdeck tutor into this, but just happen to lucksack into timewalk without needing a topdeck tutor, then you're comparing two totally different things.

[nineisnoone]

I enjoy all the people downplaying the brokenness of Time Walk.

Yeah. I don't even really see that much of a need for set-ups really. It's not like cards like Top/Preordain/Ponder/etc were ever bad cards. Honestly, I think it sets it self up plenty fine on just natural draws. Just add a couple of things to deal with it if it doesn't get played (Jacing it back into a deck, pitching to Force, etc), and you have a LOT of reward for marginal risk.

[MaximumCDawg]

TheWhiteDragon is right, but you're missing an important step: many of the applications we're talking about in this thread require that you spend another card in your hand to get the Temporal Mastery on top.  A topdeck tutor, for example.  That's where you end up down a card on the transaction.

This is a bit misleading.  This is saying you are going to use a topdeck spell from hand to get Miracle on top...but then saying you won't need to do this to get timewalk?  

That's exactly what I'm saying.  You will never get Miracle with Demonic Tutor, only a topdeck tutor.  If you end up with Miracle in your hand somehow, you need to burn a card and mana to put it back on top of your library.  The "extra work" part of this card will translate into seeing one less card than you would with Time Walk much of the time.  There are cases where Time Walk is the same (you have Vamp in hand and need the extra turn immediately).  Again, YOU WILL NEVER CAST THIS FROM YOUR HAND; ONLY AS A REPLACEMENT TO A CARD YOU WOULD OTHERWISE DRAW.

[Oath of Happy]

If you want to take extra turns off Jace there's any easier way to do it without adding crap into your deck.  You just pay and extra mana and cast Tezzeret instead.

[DubDub]

Again, YOU WILL NEVER CAST THIS FROM YOUR HAND; ONLY AS A REPLACEMENT TO A CARD YOU WOULD OTHERWISE DRAW.

OK.

[The Atog Lord]

So, it turns out that any Magic card that you draw will be replacing some other Magic card that you could have been drawing.

And I do think that we will see some hardcast Miracle Timewalks in the future, just as we've seen hardcast Force of Wills and Commandeers.

[vaughnbros]

And I do think that we will see some hardcast Miracle Timewalks in the future, just as we've seen hardcast Force of Wills and Commandeers.

who plays commandeer?

[TheWhiteDragon]

TheWhiteDragon is right, but you're missing an important step: many of the applications we're talking about in this thread require that you spend another card in your hand to get the Temporal Mastery on top.  A topdeck tutor, for example.  That's where you end up down a card on the transaction.

This is a bit misleading.  This is saying you are going to use a topdeck spell from hand to get Miracle on top...but then saying you won't need to do this to get timewalk?  

That's exactly what I'm saying.  You will never get Miracle with Demonic Tutor, only a topdeck tutor.  If you end up with Miracle in your hand somehow, you need to burn a card and mana to put it back on top of your library.  The "extra work" part of this card will translate into seeing one less card than you would with Time Walk much of the time.  There are cases where Time Walk is the same (you have Vamp in hand and need the extra turn immediately).  Again, YOU WILL NEVER CAST THIS FROM YOUR HAND; ONLY AS A REPLACEMENT TO A CARD YOU WOULD OTHERWISE DRAW.

You will never cast this from your hand, but putting it back is not "burning" spells or mana either.  If you are attempting to put this on top from your hand, you are casting brainstorm or jace, which WANT fodder to put back on top, and which you would rightly cast even if this wasn't in hand.  I understand that this is extra work to set up as a timewalk engine, but it is never card disadvantage unless it is stuck in your hand (and even then it is the perfect candidate to pitch to FoW/MisD/thirst).

You can't say, which you are anyway, that you will cast a topdeck tutor to get this, but won't cast a topdeck tutor to get timewalk.  people are saying that topdeck tutors are useful to get this trigger, but it is not the ideal move and if you tutored for the real timewalk, the CA is the same.

Timewalk and vault key are both better than this, but the CA reasoning isn't the angle to argue it, because it's just not true.  Think in ANY scenario where this is card disadvantage...

you have neither timewalk or miracle in hand...and a topdeck tutor, CA = equal
you have one of those in hand...and a brainstorm or jace, CA = equal
you have one of these in hand and want to cast a FoW/MisD, CA = equal
If you have neither FoW/thirst/MisD/brainstorm/jace...and one of these in hand, timewalk is the faster play and will give you one random card vs one dead card (until you draw jace/BS/FoW)

So in 99% of situations, the CA is the same.

But, yes, you will NEVER DT for this card whereas you might for timewalk.  Well done, sir!  But, you will also never cast timewalk on opponents turn...so there is that.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

And I do think that we will see some hardcast Miracle Timewalks in the future, just as we've seen hardcast Force of Wills and Commandeers.

who plays commandeer?

Once upon a time there was a beast of a deck called "Shaymora". Maybe you forget this deck or weren't playing at the time but I was. I have seen hard cast commandeer and I personally have hard cast commandeer.

This card is not in the realm of "will never be cast".

[madmanmike25]

Did anyone mention the potential for sleight of hand tricks with this whole miracle thing?  So now I'm going to have to watch exactly where my opponent places his card after he draws it?  Or will people have to set aside their hands and draw so there is no confusion.  This mechanic seems really horrible.... 

p.s. Did blue need more Time Walks?

[Wagner]

Did anyone mention the potential for sleight of hand tricks with this whole miracle thing?  So now I'm going to have to watch exactly where my opponent places his card after he draws it?  Or will people have to set aside their hands and draw so there is no confusion.  This mechanic seems really horrible.... 

p.s. Did blue need more Time Walks?

I think it's going to be more like "If the card you drew touched any of the cards in your hand, too late". Of course people are going to try to cheat, some always do, but I don't think it's going to be much of a problem.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

If you want to take extra turns off Jace there's any easier way to do it without adding crap into your deck.  You just pay and extra mana and cast Tezzeret instead.

You seem to have missed the point, and a large application of time walk. Time walk helps you RESOLVE JACE, on top of that, it’s GOOD WITH JACE in play.
Let me break this down for you:
1. Time walk helps you resolve spells, like jace or tinker.
2. time walk is good with any permanents that do things, like bob, jace, tarmogoyf, library, trygon, oath of druids, top, the list goes on to include just about everything not in a prison vintage deck.
3. Time walk can provide tempo.

Adding time walk is not "adding crap to your deck.” If you don't want to take my word for it, Steve had a few comments about it in the second episode of SMIP where he identifies time walk as the least unrestrictable card.
"Ancestral into ancestral is broken, but time walk into time walk is more broken"
"If you can string together two time walks, I don't see how your opponent can possibly come back"-Steve Menendian

Obviously, this thing isn't exactly time walk. But it’s pretty easy to set up with cards we're already running in multiples, together! Not to mention this thing is potentially better than time walk with the potential of being played at the end of your opponent's turn.

And I do think that we will see some hardcast Miracle Timewalks in the future, just as we've seen hardcast Force of Wills and Commandeers.

who plays commandeer?

Once upon a time there was a beast of a deck called "Shaymora". Maybe you forget this deck or weren't playing at the time but I was. I have seen hard cast commandeer and I personally have hard cast commandeer.

This card is not in the realm of "will never be cast".

I used to hard cast oath targets all the time, I agree that this thing will be hard cast more often than people think.

Did anyone mention the potential for sleight of hand tricks with this whole miracle thing?  So now I'm going to have to watch exactly where my opponent places his card after he draws it?  Or will people have to set aside their hands and draw so there is no confusion.  This mechanic seems really horrible.... 

p.s. Did blue need more Time Walks?

I think it's going to be more like "If the card you drew touched any of the cards in your hand, too late". Of course people are going to try to cheat, some always do, but I don't think it's going to be much of a problem.

It's a trigger that occurs "when you draw it", not after you draw it and have been sitting with it in your hand staring at it for a while. I'd assume its a "from the top of your library onto the stack type of thing or you missed the trigger and you're SOL." But yeah, it seems obnoxious to draw the line of opportunity with that trigger. I asuume WOTC will have to make it painfully obvious with some sort of statement.

[Oath of Happy]

If you want to take extra turns off Jace there's any easier way to do it without adding crap into your deck.  You just pay and extra mana and cast Tezzeret instead.

You seem to have missed the point, and a large application of time walk. Time walk helps you RESOLVE JACE, on top of that, it’s GOOD WITH JACE in play.
Let me break this down for you:
1. Time walk helps you resolve spells, like jace or tinker.
2. time walk is good with any permanents that do things, like bob, jace, tarmogoyf, library, trygon, oath of druids, top, the list goes on to include just about everything not in a prison vintage deck.
3. Time walk can provide tempo.

Adding time walk is not "adding crap to your deck.” If you don't want to take my word for it, Steve had a few comments about it in the second episode of SMIP where he identifies time walk as the least unrestrictable card.
"Ancestral into ancestral is broken, but time walk into time walk is more broken"
"If you can string together two time walks, I don't see how your opponent can possibly come back"-Steve Menendian

Obviously, this thing isn't exactly time walk. But it’s pretty easy to set up with cards we're already running in multiples, together! Not to mention this thing is potentially better than time walk with the potential of being played at the end of your opponent's turn.

And I do think that we will see some hardcast Miracle Timewalks in the future, just as we've seen hardcast Force of Wills and Commandeers.

who plays commandeer?

Once upon a time there was a beast of a deck called "Shaymora". Maybe you forget this deck or weren't playing at the time but I was. I have seen hard cast commandeer and I personally have hard cast commandeer.

This card is not in the realm of "will never be cast".

I used to hard cast oath targets all the time, I agree that this thing will be hard cast more often than people think.

Did anyone mention the potential for sleight of hand tricks with this whole miracle thing?  So now I'm going to have to watch exactly where my opponent places his card after he draws it?  Or will people have to set aside their hands and draw so there is no confusion.  This mechanic seems really horrible.... 

p.s. Did blue need more Time Walks?

I think it's going to be more like "If the card you drew touched any of the cards in your hand, too late". Of course people are going to try to cheat, some always do, but I don't think it's going to be much of a problem.

It's a trigger that occurs "when you draw it", not after you draw it and have been sitting with it in your hand staring at it for a while. I'd assume its a "from the top of your library onto the stack type of thing or you missed the trigger and you're SOL." But yeah, it seems obnoxious to draw the line of opportunity with that trigger. I asuume WOTC will have to make it painfully obvious with some sort of statement.

How the hell does this help you resolve Jace? by pitching to FOW? In that case I'm putting 4 Polar Krakens in my Jace deck

[TheWhiteDragon]

How the hell does this help you resolve Jace? by pitching to FOW? In that case I'm putting 4 Polar Krakens in my Jace deck

It helps you resolve jace by working your way up to 4 mana while maintaining hand size while your opponent has 1 mana and has taken a couple less turns...in which case you have a much greater chance of resolving threats and being able to answer an opponent's gameplan.

[brokenbacon]

How the hell does this help you resolve Jace? by pitching to FOW? In that case I'm putting 4 Polar Krakens in my Jace deck

4 Force of Will
4 Jace, TMS
4 Polar Kraken
4 Berserk Murlodont
44 Mana

[Oath of Happy]

How the hell does this help you resolve Jace? by pitching to FOW? In that case I'm putting 4 Polar Krakens in my Jace deck

4 Force of Will
4 Jace, TMS
4 Polar Kraken
4 Berserk Murlodont
44 Mana

Berserk Murlodont doesn't help you resolve Jace.  I'm thinking replace them with 4 Blinkmoth Infusions, go down to 40 mana to fit 4 Temporal Mastery and you've got a solid deck.

[LotusHead]

For the record, when I made my suggestion of Noxious Revival comboing with Miracle Walk, it was to combo with an Oathed up Miracle Walk (or Intuitioned Miracle Walk).