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Author Topic: [RtR] Epic Experiment - Soon restricted?  (Read 15346 times)
desolutionist
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« on: September 11, 2012, 11:40:29 pm »



....drooool

*edit* is this crazy or what?

I think we've now got a use for Ancestral Knowledge Wink
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 11:52:16 pm by desolutionist » Logged

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serracollector
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 12:23:03 am »

forget all the silly broken spells this can chain off, I just wanna hit 4 bolts and 4 chain lightnings in a row.

Also on top of AncK, this card also seems really silly with a well cast Mana Severance....
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 12:32:04 am by serracollector » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2012, 12:53:06 am »

I don't know, in a drain deck your going to want to spend at least 5 mana to cast (hopefully) three CMC 3 instants or sorceries. Even then, that won't win you the game usually. You also have very little control over what they are unless you cast a top deck tutor. It would be great for something like bomberman or legacy hightide but I don't see it working anywhere where you don't have nigh infinite mana.
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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2012, 02:25:18 am »

Don't know whether it will be competitive or not but it looks a blast to play! Perhaps the card that could bridge the gap between old-style big mana combo decks like Academy and modern storm decks. Guess you'd have to play black for discard over counters and otherwise modal stuff like the new Izzett Charm to get value when you flip them to this....

Really nice to see a powerful, splashy spell come out of the set rather than another 15/15 monster or whatever other creature. Nice work Wizards!
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Thegreatgonzo
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 02:47:17 am »

So it's some kind of Genesis Wave for non permanent spells. While it's probably awesome in EDH or modern, I don't think it will see play in vintage. I mean, it's strictly worse than Mind's Desire in "long" style decks, and belcher decks often have a hard time creating blue mana. Maybe in some kind of U/R ritual Empty the Warrens deck, but then again, it feels more like modern (or maybe legacy).
Nice card, and nice art, anyway.

My 2 cents
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StanleyAugust
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 02:55:07 am »

At first I was like " Surprised" but then I was like " Sad", realising that Mind's Desire is just strictly better. Wizards are certainly making a lot of interesting UR cards, though.
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xouman
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2012, 03:09:12 am »

Weird card indeed. It needs a deck filled with rituals to get as mana as possible, but as it is counterable it's too risky. Mind's desire feels way better and isn't played at all despite its power. Maybe being playable as a 4of allows a different construction, but I don't think this card is better than current options.
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2012, 03:42:28 am »

Weird card indeed. It needs a deck filled with rituals to get as mana as possible, but as it is counterable it's too risky. Mind's desire feels way better and isn't played at all despite its power. Maybe being playable as a 4of allows a different construction, but I don't think this card is better than current options.

Each extra copy makes the copy you cast worse as X will be 0 on the Experimented copies. You're essentially going to want to play it for x=10+ unless you can set up specifically to win on a lower count of X. Having Mind's Desire or grapeshot storming off your copies of brainstorm, ponder, lightning bolt, whatever may be interesting but you'd still have to resolve that huge Epic Experiment.

Legacy maybe, EDH yes, Vintage I doubt it.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2012, 04:23:19 am »

This is a pretty crazy card.

Quote
Each extra copy makes the copy you cast worse as X will be 0 on the Experimented copies.


Even if it is 0, it adds to your storm count, and why would you want to play four of them anyway?  There's enough tutoring and filtering out there that one or two would be plenty.
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2012, 04:25:21 am »

Recently many deck loses "outlet" of mana drain:Jace,Yawgmoth.perhaps Gush,FoF,Gift...that's it.Epic Experiment may resolve the problem.
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Darkenslight
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2012, 06:22:03 am »

This is quite hilarious with 0 CMC cards, such as Ancestral Vision and its like.  I think this is a massive enabler for a new combo deck with Recoup and Ritual effects, with Manamorphose and Petal/LED.  It's definitely worth testing,b ut I don't think it fits anywhere other than U/R Storm.
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quicksilvervii
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« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2012, 08:04:20 am »

This is quite hilarious with 0 CMC cards, such as Ancestral Vision and its like.  I think this is a massive enabler for a new combo deck with Recoup and Ritual effects, with Manamorphose and Petal/LED.  It's definitely worth testing,b ut I don't think it fits anywhere other than U/R Storm.

That means that you have to run cards like Ancestral Visions, which really aren't fast enough.

Blue decks are probably going to flip over some number of Force of Will, Flusterstorm, and Jaces.

In storm, I like desire better.
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« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2012, 08:33:40 am »

I don't see why this keeps getting compared to Mind's Desire. Desire is restricted, and were it unrestricted, we would be playing decks with the full set of it. Its restriction is what is preventing it from being an archetype on its own, since it would chain so well into itself. So, whether or not this card is worth than the restricted Mind's Desire is neither here nor there. There may or may not be a deck to be built around this card (likely not, but it does look cool so I hope there is). But whether there is such a deck is not a function of whether Mind's Desire is currently seeing play.
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Darkenslight
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« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2012, 09:37:31 am »

This is quite hilarious with 0 CMC cards, such as Ancestral Vision and its like.  I think this is a massive enabler for a new combo deck with Recoup and Ritual effects, with Manamorphose and Petal/LED.  It's definitely worth testing,b ut I don't think it fits anywhere other than U/R Storm.

That means that you have to run cards like Ancestral Visions, which really aren't fast enough.

Blue decks are probably going to flip over some number of Force of Will, Flusterstorm, and Jaces.

In storm, I like desire better.

Again, the key is that you're putting a ton of spells ont he stack at once in the order that you choose.  This isn't a card like Yawg's Win, where you can slot it into almost nay deck playing Black: this is a build-around-me card, like Belcher or Tendrils.  I think this would be a fantastic card in Legacy or Modern, but I'm not sure if it's good enough for Vintage.  It would very much be a metagame deck as it would probably autolose to Shop decks.  A Hypothetical list would be:

4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodtained Mire
4 City of Traitors
3 Chrome Mox
Lotus
Lotus Petal

ARecall
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Preordain
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual
2 Seething Song
3 Epic Experiment
2 Grapeshot
3 meta

Note this is a bog-standard list brwed up in about 30 seconds and would probably need a LOT fo work befroe it was even viable.

EDIT: put Ancestral instead of accumulated.  TOTALLY different deck then.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 11:02:17 am by Darkenslight » Logged
quicksilvervii
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« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2012, 10:04:30 am »

I'd be interested to see if this can be played in some form of vintage high tide or something.

In legacy, would it be worth playing a volcanic/2 to go bananas?
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desolutionist
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« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2012, 10:24:01 am »

I had a UR Pyromancer's Ascension deck that this would go great in because it played very few, if any, artifact mana.  If your deck is mostly instants and sorceries (rituals rather than artifact mana), this card *is* a Mind's Desire.  The Pyromancer deck is very fragile though; sort of like Belcher but it would sometimes win turn 1 and this would definitely improve the odds.  I mean Epic Experiment, Rite of Flame, Past in Flames, Intuition?  WotC is trying to give us something it seems...

quicksilver - Vintage High Tide would be awesome especially since we have 4 Frantic Searches
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 10:30:32 am by desolutionist » Logged

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gkraigher
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« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2012, 10:57:44 am »

Ugh, c'mon guys, this card is NOT PLAYABLE in vintage.  Its a bad mind's desire and last time I checked mind's desire wasn't played in anything. 
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« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2012, 11:00:15 am »

Ugh, c'mon guys, this card is NOT PLAYABLE in vintage.  Its a bad mind's desire and last time I checked mind's desire wasn't played in anything.
Mind's Desire would be the only blue deck in the format if it was unrestricted.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2012, 11:01:24 am »

Quote
Mind's Desire would be the only blue deck in the format if it was unrestricted.

See Flusterstorm and MUD. 
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gkraigher
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« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2012, 11:06:17 am »

I'd be interested to see if this can be played in some form of vintage high tide or something.

In legacy, would it be worth playing a volcanic/2 to go bananas?

No, it does the exact opposite of what you want to do in legacy timespiral--tap all your lands and pray that a turnabout and a high tide are both on top is not a strategy.  If you had already casted high tide and time spiral that turn, sure, it would assist you in going off.  But think of all the clunk going into that.  1) Wasteland on Volcanic Island--when you MUST have 3 islands in play, if not 4  2) YOU were already going off to begin with.  3) Make room for it in the current 60 card build, I dare you to to think you can cut preordain.  

The problem with Vintage Timespiral is that you NEED To have 3 Islands in play.  That is not easy to do against dredge, MUD, or even a blue based control deck where you will have to play around at least 1 counterspell if not 2.  Don't forget, High Tide helps your opponents islands too. 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 11:14:57 am by gkraigher » Logged
desolutionist
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« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2012, 12:04:15 pm »

gkraigher, you're completely wrong.  I've run storm decks into MUD and Flusterstorm all day without much of a problem.  (See Hurkyl's Recall and Thoughtseize Wink)  So then why isn't Mind's Desire played in anything "last you checked"?  I'd say the main reason is because you haven't been playing against me.

*EDIT*

Since Mind's Desire is an auto include in any blue based storm deck, what you're saying is: storm decks are Vintage unplayable.  You may have never seen a Storm deck in action, but they generally play Force of Will, Hurkyl's Recall, and some way to fight Flusterstorm (Duress or Flusterstorm itself).  The idea is that you're not going to win through attrition, but rather when your opponent has committed their resources to something that doesn't generally affect you (say tapping out on turn 1 for a Dark Confidant).  When this happens, and you're holding the win w/ protection, you win.  This is harder to sculpt without Brainstorm and I've been experimenting with different cards such as Lim-Dul's Vault, Lat-Nam's Legacy, and Jace; the point is that Storm (and Mind's Desire) is tier one and probably doesn't see the kind of play that you'd need to form your opinion on it because it's kind of difficult to play.

I'm pretty sure that if you flip over another Experiment w/ some Seething Songs, you'd be able to just pay the mana cost for Experiment? It says "may"
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 12:55:20 pm by desolutionist » Logged

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gkraigher
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« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2012, 01:40:39 pm »

Look that's all fine, but tapping out for 1 card is completely different that tapping out for mind's desire.  An all in bet on Epic Experiment is an awful strategy.  

Combo decks are out there.  They just don't use mind's desire, they use tendrils.  I think the deck is good, but this card does nothing to improve that deck.  Its so bad I don't think it will be played in any format whatsoever.  Including Standard, Modern, and Legacy.  Its godawful.  

And for the record, I don't think unbanning mind's desire would be detrimental to the format.  I think there are enough decks out there that I would be ok with that happening.  I certainly do not believe it would be the ONLY blue deck in the format.  Mind's desire has never been unrestricted in the format, I'm all for it.  Do it.  But don't tell me Epic Experiment is a good card, or a card you can build a deck around, because it's not.  

Here is a combo deck that doesn't run mind's desire that won a tournament.  Mind's Desire costs to much and has a variance issue with it, IMO.  And in the opinion of the guy who won the byes.
http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1633
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 01:53:31 pm by gkraigher » Logged
Darkenslight
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« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2012, 01:51:48 pm »

Look that's all fine, but tapping out for 1 card is completely different that tapping out for mind's desire.  An all in bet on Epic Experiment is an awful strategy.

So, remind me again what an all-in bet on Goblin Charbelcher is?

I think there is a place for this card in Vintage, but that it would be highly meta-dependent.  If you're in a Shop-heavy mets, you don't play this kind of deck, simple.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2012, 01:55:13 pm »

Quote
So, remind me again what an all-in bet on Goblin Charbelcher is?

A legacy deck.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2012, 01:59:34 pm »

Quote
I'm pretty sure that if you flip over another Experiment w/ some Seething Songs, you'd be able to just pay the mana cost for Experiment? It says "may"

It later reads that all cards not cast for free in exile are put into the graveyard, so no, you cannot.  

It gives you the choice of casting it without paying its mana costs (X=0) or putting it in your graveyard. 
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« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2012, 02:06:32 pm »

A legacy doomsday pile- this new card, careful study, unearth, git probe, maniac pretty much assures victory first turn after doomsday with a mana requirement of UR2 on victory turn.  Neat.
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desolutionist
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« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2012, 02:49:01 pm »

Look that's all fine, but tapping out for 1 card is completely different that tapping out for mind's desire.  An all in bet on Epic Experiment is an awful strategy.

Epic Experiment is an engine; a combo enabler.  You've got to look at it as not simply thrown into a regular Vintage storm deck.  Ok so you tap out for an Epic Experiment and flip over an Intuition, Seething Song, Manamorphose.  So then you play another and perhaps flip over a Wheel of Fortune or Mind's Desire, eventually hitting a Past in Flames.  The idea is that when it resolves, you will be winning the game that turn.  How is winning the game in one turn an awful strategy?

Are you denying that this card will resolve or that it will flip over cantripping Dark Rituals?

Quote
Combo decks are out there.  They just don't use mind's desire, they use tendrils.  I think the deck is good, but this card does nothing to improve that deck.  Its so bad I don't think it will be played in any format whatsoever.  Including Standard, Modern, and Legacy.  Its godawful.

It will definitely be used in modern, are you kidding?  The UR storm deck already plays everything to support it!  

Quote
And for the record, I don't think unbanning mind's desire would be detrimental to the format.  I think there are enough decks out there that I would be ok with that happening.  I certainly do not believe it would be the ONLY blue deck in the format.  Mind's desire has never been unrestricted in the format, I'm all for it.  Do it.  But don't tell me Epic Experiment is a good card, or a card you can build a deck around, because it's not.

You start by suggesting something ridiculous that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.  And then you say no one can build a deck around this card because you say so.  How do you expect people to find your opinions credible?

Quote
Here is a combo deck that doesn't run mind's desire that won a tournament.  Mind's Desire costs to much and has a variance issue with it, IMO.  And in the opinion of the guy who won the byes.
http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1633

That isn't a storm deck, its a Doomsday deck.  The Tendrils appears to be an alternate win condition.  I wouldn't play Mind's Desire here either.  (Just in the opinion of the guy who won the byes last year)  

« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 03:00:49 pm by desolutionist » Logged

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Sarah Angel
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« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2012, 02:55:23 pm »

If minds desire were unrestricted, it would be the only deck for a while until the format radically shifted to stop such a ridiculous interaction.  Desire steals games that you have no business winning, to begin with. 4x desire would just be ludicrous. Desire for 5+ is usually game. Desire into another desire is just unfair.  Yes, flusterstorm is a card, but so are duress, thoughtseize, defense grid, and xantid swarm.  Whenever people call for the unrestriction of desire it blows my mind.                                        back on topic, if past in flames couldnt generate a vintage deck, i doubt this can.  I bet someone makes a genesis wave style deck in modern with this card though.
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desolutionist
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« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2012, 03:37:28 pm »

So if I'm reading this right, you must cast the spell as it comes up? (i.e. I Experiment for 6: A land comes up, its discarded, then a Wheel of Fortune - cast it right away?)  Flip over a Mystical Tutor, cast it, flipping over whatever you get
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 03:46:36 pm by desolutionist » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2012, 03:47:02 pm »

So if I'm reading this right, you must cast the spell as it comes up? (i.e. I Experiment for 6: A land comes up, its discarded, then a Wheel of Fortune - cast it right away?)

If you experiment for 6 you exile the top 6 cards and play them in whatever order you like then the ones you dont play or cant play go to your graveyard.
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