Blue Red Black Burning Tendrils

[desolutionist]

I'm very excited to play Vintage with 4 Burning Wishes and Mind's Desire.  And now with Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Manamorphose, Gitaxian Probe, and possibly Epic Experiment, blue red storm could have enough to support to go the distance.  The Pauper U/R Storm decks are winning on turn 2/3.  The Modern U/R Storm decks are winning on turn 2/3.  Certainly Vintage U/R Storm can also win on turn 2/3?

This thread is meant to start the discussion on this type of Storm deck.  I'm looking to collaborate with other TMDers in attempt to put out a (north east) tournament quality deck.  I've been playing U/R storm casually since Pyromancer's Ascension was printed and I think a lot of people would be surprised at how good it actually is.

Without Black Lotus and/or Lion's Eye Diamond and some combination of artifact mana and/or rituals, you only have a slim chance to Wish for Desire and cast it turn 1.  I believe the best route for setting up a Wish for Desire would aim for "mid-range".  This would give you a turn or two to set up your Rite of Flames via Intuition, thus giving you enough mana to Wish for Desire and cast it.  Intuition also has the added bonus of being able to put Past in Flames into the yard or tutor triple Burning Wish to get Grapeshot or Desire.  

Using this strategy, a bulk of the deck would be:

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flame
X Seething Song
X Intuition
4 Burning Wish
1 Past in Flames
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
X Preordain
4 Force of Will
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Tolarian Academy
X Volcanic Island

If you were to make it even slower, you could cut back on Seething Songs and play a set of Accumulated Knowledges.  That would require more moxen and probably splash black for Yawgmoth's Will.    Just one of many ways this deck can be built.

The sideboard will obviously contain Mind's Desire, some toolbox answers to hate (Pyroclasm, Shattering Spree), a draw spell (Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, Deep Analysis), and the win condition (Empty the Warrens, Grapeshot)

I've tested with Epic Experiment before I knew that Burning Wish would be unrestricted and while I wasn't very impressed (it was often inferior to Mind's Desire), I still think it can be played in this deck.  Being able to Intuition for 3 copies was quite good and it also pitches to Force of Will, something that this deck really needs.  You also definitely want one in the sideboard for when you're going off.  Sometimes after you've already spent your Mind's Desire, being able to Wish for "another" is pretty key.

*EDIT*

Modified the subject to better suit the decks strategy

[median]

You forgot sol ring. I played around casually with this type of deck in legacy and couldn't get it to work. I think you will need black, but I'm no expert on U/R storm.

How do you feel about past in flames in this kind of deck?

[Thegreatgonzo]

If you plan to kill with Empty the warrens, a singleton Goblin War Strike in the sideboard could be a nice wish target. Also, I'm pretty sure you want to play the black trinity  (demonic, vampiric, yawgmoth's win)
Just my 2 cents.

[vaughnbros]

You forgot sol ring. I played around casually with this type of deck in legacy and couldn't get it to work. I think you will need black, but I'm no expert on U/R storm.

How do you feel about past in flames in this kind of deck?

I won a couple mini 8 man tournaments with UR storm a few months ago but never played it in a bigger tournament.  I played intuition ak engine in it, with pretty much a whole storm package, and then burning wish for artifact hate (pulverize, shattering spree) or combo cards (grapeshot, past in flames). I only had 1 wish though.

I'd say black is definitely not needed, but past in flames is.  I probably wouldn't run more than 3 manamorphose and definitely wouldn't play LED or seething song.

[Shax]

Just use what desolutionist posted as a resource above for new cards to slot, and heres a link http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/5820_Burning_Through_Type_One_With_The_Fastest_Deck_In_Magic.html That Article is a Long resource to look through, but now with newer cards it would seem like a daunting task to put all of this together along with the rule changes on fetching from the Exile with Burning Wish. Because some of the viable options back then (Diminishing Returns, Demonic Consultation, Necropotence effects) all play a bit differently under Burning Wish now. Also the new cards have been so advantagous, you cannot depend on Yawgmoth's Will like you used too. Dryad Militant, Rest in Peace, and Grafdigger's Cage stop Yawgmoth's Will pretty much cold. And this is not even leaving G/W colors, this being said for all of that being taken into effect still makes Burning Wish possibly one of the best decks to play. Losing Brainstorm becomes even more apparent in Vintage.

[median]

LOL Shax, just noticed your sig, hehe, a bit out of date now.

[bluemage55]

Running as many draw 7s as possible greatly improves the deck's card drawing and give us the ability to overwhelm control decks instead of losing horribly after they sit back and counter one key spell.  The full suite of moxen should be included, since we have a bunch of spells that could use that extra colorless mana anyway.  Finally, if we're gonna run Tinker for Memory Jar, then we can have Blightsteel as a solid alternate win condition.  Here's how I'd do it:

Lands (11)
5 Fetchlands
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island

Mana Acceleration (19)
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song

Disruption (4)
4 Force of Will

Card Drawing/Filtering (12)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Manamorphose

Tutoring (8)
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Intuition
4 Burning Wish

Win (6)
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Blightsteel Colossus


Sideboard:
1 Timetwister
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
12 Other


I'm still not convinced that this would be viable, but the changes would help.  It might be necessary to splash black for the sheer power of Yawg and the tutors, but at that point, it's not particularly superior to a Ritual deck with Tendrils, which is fairly questionable already.  We really need 4x Brainstorms to smooth things out before any of these blue combo decks are truly top tier contenders again.

[median]

Izzet charm will help with the filtering I think, although I have zero to back that up with.

[bluemage55]

Izzet charm will help with the filtering I think, although I have zero to back that up with.

The problem with Izzet Charm is that it's -1 CA when you use it to filter.  We're also not running a lot of conditional chaff, aside from BSC.

[That0neguy]

It seems to me like you bottleneck very easily at blue if you want to go off on turn 1/2, making it really only a consistent turn 3 deck.  The routes to UUR5 on turn 1 seem almost non existant, and on turn 2, very difficult.

You need need either an on color mox, Academy, lotus or LED to pull it off, and LED shoves you all in.  I almost question the inclusion of LED without some type of proactive disruption.

You also appear to rely heavily on both seething song and Manamorphose, if either spell is spell pierced/Flusterstorm/FoW that right there can end a storm run, and they are almost required targets.

Also, the deck seems a bit threat light post desire.  I think Reforge the Soul x3 should replace intuition.  Then you can reload off a Mystical/personal tutor as well.

If you are going to run counterspells as disruption, I think Flusterstorm is the way to go.  Mind's desire isn't really worried about force of will, but it is worried about Flusterstorm.  I almost think the only way you can safely pull this off though is through something like defense grid.  It seems like your route to victory will often involve at least 1-2 draw 7s, and that is very easy to disrupt.

Another thing to consider would be Chrome Mox to get the 2nd blue mana for desire earlier more consistently, potentially cutting off color moxen for them.

It looks crazy fun to play, I just have my doubts about the viability through all the cheap countermagic that has been printed since.

I almost wonder if a better use for burning with would just be to wish up Tinker, backed up by a bunch of countermagic.

[desolutionist]

I decided to try it in more of a Grim Long shell.  This seems a little more consistent, I bet Wish allows this deck to make a comeback

4 Burning Wish
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Gifts Ungiven
SB: 1 Mind's Desire
SB: 1 Yawgmoth's Will
SB: 2 Island
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Tinker
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Timetwister
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

[vaughnbros]

I don't think you should put all your win cards in your board.  I'd main deck either tendrils or desire.  I also don't know if playing id play tinker at all since it puts the dead draw of bsc in your deck maybe jar is a better tinker target?  Thoughtseize seems pretty much just better than duress.  You also need more artifact hate and land main and side.  Currently you are relying on only 1 hurkyls and 11 lands main deck and then 3 hurkyls and only 13 lands post board.

[desolutionist]

I don't think you should put all your win cards in your board.  I'd main deck either tendrils or desire.  I also don't know if playing id play tinker at all since it puts the dead draw of bsc in your deck maybe jar is a better tinker target?  Thoughtseize seems pretty much just better than duress.  You also need more artifact hate and land main and side.  Currently you are relying on only 1 hurkyls and 11 lands main deck and then 3 hurkyls and only 13 lands post board.

This is interesting because Long now has a turn 1 play: Burning Wish.  One of the problems with Grim Long, Pitch Long, and TPS is that it didn't have a turn 1 play.  Merchant Scroll became an effective solution before it was restricted but now we have Burning Wish, which is clearly better than Scroll, but only as good as what you have in the sideboard.  So what should be in the sideboard and what should be in the maindeck?

I'm definitely opposed to putting Tendrils of Agony into the maindeck and Mind's Desire, Tinker, and Yawgmoth's Will seem like the best cards to get with Burning Wish.  (It is nice to get Desire with Demonic or Vampiric though)  Why exactly would I want these cards in the maindeck?   Tendrils especially is often a dead card.  I could agree with cutting BSC but then again turn 1 Burning Wish, turn 2 Tinker seems like very consistent win condition.

[vaughnbros]

So what should be in the sideboard and what should be in the maindeck?

This is the big question of every deck.  Im going to assume that the plan of this deck is to win asap with as much consistency as possible via storm spells.  So you need a storm finisher (tendrils), a storm enabler (yawg will) and an answer to storms biggest weakness (some sort of artifact hate card I havent found the best one yet either, but probably shattering spree, pulverize, or shatterstorm).

(It is nice to get Desire with Demonic or Vampiric though)  Why exactly would I want these cards in the maindeck?   Tendrils especially is often a dead card. 

I think you answered your own question on why you would want those cards main deck and which one specifically.  You still want tutor targets for vamp and demonic that can win the game you dont want to have to tutor for wish and cast it to win and desire seems to be the one you like the most for main deck.

I could agree with cutting BSC but then again turn 1 Burning Wish, turn 2 Tinker seems like very consistent win condition.

The question for this is losing a main deck slot and a sideboard slot worth having tinker bot as an option?  Currently this deck has no cards that care about creature removal or artifact hate except tinker, this could be played as a good and bad reason to play tinker.  On the one hand not playing tinker means game 1 your opponent has dead cards.  On the other hand playing tinker means your opponent cant board out tinker hate game 2 and 3.

[InfectedMushroom]

I decided to try it in more of a Grim Long shell.  This seems a little more consistent, I bet Wish allows this deck to make a comeback

4 Burning Wish
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Gifts Ungiven
SB: 1 Mind's Desire
SB: 1 Yawgmoth's Will
SB: 2 Island
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Tinker
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Timetwister
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

I like the idea, but the deck is very weak to Flusterstorm. 4 Duress isn't enough to go up against those decks, which also run 2-4 Mental Misstep.

Scalding Tarn can't fetch basic Swamp, so that would have to go in my opinion.

[bluemage55]

Merchant Scroll became an effective solution before it was restricted but now we have Burning Wish, which is clearly better than Scroll, but only as good as what you have in the sideboard.

BW is not clearly better than Scroll.  Scroll grabs Ancestral, any counterspell, and Mystical, and also benefits from being blue (both for being easier to cast and pitchable to Fow).

I'm definitely opposed to putting Tendrils of Agony into the maindeck and Mind's Desire, Tinker, and Yawgmoth's Will seem like the best cards to get with Burning Wish.

Then you're missing out on opportunities for quick wins where you do not want to spend 1R for BW.  There's a reason why the original Long.dec (which played 4x BW) still ran a maindeck Tendrils.

I like the idea, but the deck is very weak to Flusterstorm. 4 Duress isn't enough to go up against those decks, which also run 2-4 Mental Misstep.

Yeah, we need to get 4x FoW into the deck.

[desolutionist]

@Flusterstorm

This card will almost never counter a Tendrils of Agony because you should be Duressing your opponent before you cast it.  In my opinion Flusterstorm is no different from Stifle or Force of Will, and while it may be both, it isn't a huge deal.  Typically you want to bait these out with your bombs before you start using up your Rituals, but I know sometimes it is unavoidable.  The fact that it doesn't counter Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain, or Jace IS relevant.  And ideally you're just trading it 1-for-1 with one of your business spells (not Yawgmoth's Will or Tendrils of Agony)  So it doesn't necessarily follow that this deck is weak to Flusterstorm...  It's metagamed to beat Flusterstorm (hence the 6 Duress effects).  If anything this deck is weak to Lodestone Golem.

@Scalding Tarn

No it cannot fetch a basic swamp, but it can fetch Underground Sea, which is the best you can possibly get; there is no viable alternative to Polluted Delta.  Deck thinning is still good, fetches are good even if they can't get one of the basics in your deck.

@Burning Wish vs. Merchant Scroll

Burning Wish is a lot more versatile in what it can potentially get and the cards it gets are often more powerful than the cards Merchant Scroll can get.  Ancestral Recall is a powerful card but only as powerful as the cards it draws.  You could draw three cards but if you're not drawing Yawgmoth's Will or Tinker then Burning Wish seems a lot better than Merchant Scroll.  And no you can't pitch Burning Wish to Force of Will just like can't pitch Yawgmoth's Will or want to pitch Tinker.  I don't think a few extra non-Blue cards is going to break the deal, especially since you're replacing some of the other non-blue cards in the deck.  That's if Force of Will makes the deck.

@Force of Will

Interesting you guys seem to want to play Force of Will to beat Flusterstorm and Mental Misstep.  I'd play it to beat Lodestone Golem.  Currently I'm operating under the idea that you can fight Workshops without Force of Will, most of the time.  I haven't thought about the sideboard a whole lot yet but extra lands and Hurkyl's Recall is the default plan. 

[bluemage55]

Interesting you guys seem to want to play Force of Will to beat Flusterstorm and Mental Misstep.  I'd play it to beat Lodestone Golem.  Currently I'm operating under the idea that you can fight Workshops without Force of Will, most of the time.  I haven't thought about the sideboard a whole lot yet but extra lands and Hurkyl's Recall is the default plan.  

If we're going for a Grim Long type shell rather than all-out combo, we're going to want the extra disruption to hang with those control decks that play Flusterstorm and Misstep (although we're obviously not looking to trade FoW against those cards specifically).  Rather, we want the extra slots so we're not bringing only 4 Duress and 2 Cabal Therapys against a deck with potentially up to 4 FoW, 2 Mana Drain, 2 Duress, 2 Misstep, 2 Flusterstorm (not to mention better CA than us).  6 disruption slots won't cut it against 7-12 if we're running a Grim Long type shell.

Though it's not absolutely necessary, I'd say being able to Force a turn 1 Lodestone when on the draw makes a huge difference to the matchup.  Why give up one of the best blue cards ever printed if we're already capable of supporting it?

[desolutionist]

Interesting you guys seem to want to play Force of Will to beat Flusterstorm and Mental Misstep.  I'd play it to beat Lodestone Golem.  Currently I'm operating under the idea that you can fight Workshops without Force of Will, most of the time.  I haven't thought about the sideboard a whole lot yet but extra lands and Hurkyl's Recall is the default plan.  

FoW isn't to beat Flusterstorm and Mental Misstep on a card-for-card basis; e.g. we're not looking to counter either with FoW.  However, we need FoW to fight decks that have those, since they'll have FoW in addition to Flusterstorm and Mental Misstep, and merely being armed with 6 Duress effects means they'll probably out-disrupt us.

The strategy that I'm going for is to have more bombs than they have disruption.  Some card draw through either Dark Confidant, Accumulated Knowledge, or Cruel Bargain/Infernal Contract might be necessary to achieve this.  I'm trying to avoid bogging the deck down with disruption spells because when you Draw7 or Mind's Desire, you want to be able to win.  Now the list I posted is obviously not finely tuned and nor has it been thoroughly tested, so please play with Force of Will if you must; starting without it helps me to identify some other underlying issues with the deck.  Slightly off-topic: Dark Confidant (Bob Tendrils) could help the blue and brown matchups and flipping over Burning Wish happens to hurt a lot less than Mind's Desire.  Though he might be a little slow.

And yes, FoW helps with Lodestone.  Though it's not absolutely necessary, I'd say being able to Force a turn 1 Lodestone when on the draw makes a huge difference to the matchup.  Why give up one of the best blue cards ever printed if we're already capable of supporting it?

With Force of Will in the deck, you can count on explosiveness/speed to be less than if Force of Will was NOT in the deck.  There's noting better than, while on the play, winning turn 1.  I think once I smooth out the shell, I'll probably end up adding Force of Will though.

[bluemage55]

Did some playtesting with your list against control, Dredge, and Shops.  Thoughts:

1. How is your list superior to Grim Long in any way?  It appears that much of the time, you'd rather have Grim Tutors (especially with the ritual acceleration) and all of your bombs maindecked instead.  The versatility provided by BW seems wasted in a relatively linear deck that's not looking to play control.

2. Having to pay that 1 mana for Duress/Therapy actually gets in the way more than you'd think.  A singleton sideboard Duress for Wishing might be better.

3. Jace and Gifts are too slow for this deck.  We're not lacking powerful effects to burn mana on; if we're gonna drop any 4cc+ bombs they should really only be Tendrils, Bargain, or Desire.

4. Not enough filtering.  1 Ancestral, 1 BS, and 4 Gitaxian Probes don't really carry the weight of the missing Ponder/Preordains.

5. Land count is slightly short at 12.  We probably want 13 to reliably make our first two land drops.  Conversely, 3 Cabal Rituals is too many.  We're not as properly equipped to use them as well as a traditional Grim Long (which doesn't need  ).

6. Relying soley on Wishing for win conditions is awkward.  Tinker and 1 copy of Tendrils should be maindecked for the faster wins they provide.  With Mystical, Demonic, and Vampiric in the mix, it's nice to have some quick wins to tutor for, rather than be forced to tutor chain for BW.

7. Sideboard: I have no idea what the Chain of Vapors are for.  Only 4 slots vs. Dredge is essentially conceding the matchup, we need at least 7.

[Lemnear]

First of all: if you want to run a stack-based Combo in todays vintage you have to find a Solution for Shops first.

Having to wish for any gamebreaker like tinker seems counterintuitive in a World Of spheres and Taxing Counter (Mindbreak and misstep not to forget) which imo make a lot of cards like Jar/desire pretty unplayable. It makes more sense to use Wish for Silver bullets and Game enders than as engine. Y.will, Show&Tell, Bribery, EtW, Tendrils, meltdown, grapeshot, etc. are such cards but tinker isn't situational like these like Jar and Desire weren't back in the days of original burning-desire.dec

Taking Bob tendrils as a base is indeed a good idea.

4x Force of wIll
4x Dark Confidant
4x Duress/thoughtseize (cuz ist can get Lodestone on the play!)
4x Flusterstorm
4x Burning Wish
4x Preordain
+ several mass-artifact-bounce-spells

...seem a possible starting point.

[That0neguy]

I was reading this the other day, and was thinking about it for a while, when I decided that I thought it might just be better to burning wish for Tinker and take a control route.

But I did come up with a few thoughts on this deck that I realize might still help you guys out if you want to take this further.

Reforge the soul would be very strong off a mind's desire, and if you are running the red ritual version, is far from being uncastable.

I think if you were going to be trying to go off on turn 1-2 you are going to bottleneck at blue mana. Chrome Mox might be an option?  I think this is probably the biggest bottleneck is most storm based decks right now.

[Lemnear]

I doubt chrome mox is Good in vintage. Paired with the original artifact acceleration you can Play 2 Opal Moxen if you want more fastmana. Draw 7 are unplayable. You can't ramp to 5 mana and run into Mindbreak, spell pierce, flusterstorm or get a Ritual missteped for -1/-2 cards in disadvantage Open eyed as a strategy. If you invst 5+ mana and several Rituals you want ist to have some impact which wasn't auch a Problem back in the days there you only fought FoW and Drain. Creating a Storm Deck today without adressing Shops and those new, free/1cc counters as the First 2 steps imo leads to a dead end

[desolutionist]

Draw 7 are unplayable. You can't ramp to 5 mana and run into Mindbreak, spell pierce, flusterstorm or get a Ritual missteped for -1/-2 cards in disadvantage

You should look at Draw7s as draw engine spells.  If you're ahead on permanents, you could be looking at +2/+3 in advantage.  The best time to play a Draw7 is on turn 1 obviously and the Rituals help you get them out; you're not necessarily trying to go off with a Draw7, just looking to get ahead of your opponent.

I agree that you have to mind things like Spell Pierce when before you had to mind things like Isamaru, but with careful play you can make it happen.  If you play carefully, they're only trading with your spells 1-for-1 and at the end of the day, you're going to out-threat them.

Looking over some recent tournament results, this is what we have to contend with:

Alex Lin - 2nd Place - "Reel Fish" (Merfolk)   
   
Deck   
   
4   Æther Vial
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Black Lotus
4   Cavern of Souls
4   Cursecatcher
3   Daze
4   Force of Will
6   Island
4   Lord of Atlantis
4   Master of the Pearl Trident
3   Mental Misstep
3   Merrow Reejerey
1   Misty Rainforest
1   Mox Sapphire
3   Phantasmal Image
2   Scalding Tarn
4   Silvergill Adept
2   Spell Pierce
1   Strip Mine
1   Time Walk
4   Wasteland
   
Sideboard   
   
2   Dismember
3   Grafdigger's Cage
1   Island
1   Phantasmal Image
4   Steel Sabotage
4   Tormod's Crypt

This is basically BUG Fish from a couple years ago, which is definitely a tough matchup, but definitely not unwinnable pre-board.  You're able to just "out-broken" them (for lack of a better word).  An important missing component here is Null Rod, which is a huge plus for us.  Maybe some more lands in the maindeck would be good, and this would free up some sideboard space for things like Pyroblast

[Lemnear]

Draw 7 are unplayable. You can't ramp to 5 mana and run into Mindbreak, spell pierce, flusterstorm or get a Ritual missteped for -1/-2 cards in disadvantage

You should look at Draw7s as draw engine spells.  If you're ahead on permanents, you could be looking at +2/+3 in advantage.  The best time to play a Draw7 is on turn 1 obviously and the Rituals help you get them out; you're not necessarily trying to go off with a Draw7, just looking to get ahead of your opponent.

I agree that you have to mind things like Spell Pierce when before you had to mind things like Isamaru, but with careful play you can make it happen.  If you play carefully, they're only trading with your spells 1-for-1 and at the end of the day, you're going to out-threat them

Your examples all include the assumption that the draw7 a) resolve and b) don't help your opponent more than you. To go Ritual, Ritual, jar scoops to misstep, Mindbreak, Force, flusterstorm and pierce without previous disruption which is (likely) negated once the draw7 resolves.

[desolutionist]

I'm not a big fan of Jar for the reason you outline.  It doesn't help you, only hurts.  And just to clarify, my opponent has Force of Will, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, and Mindbreak Trap.  Does he also have a Blightsteel Colossus and/or a Jace, the Mind Sculptor?  What turn is this?  Have I been sculpting my hand as he has been sculpting his?  And my best play is Ritual, Ritual, Memory Jar?  That sounds unrealistic.  If I didn't know any better you must be playing dredge, or shops, or goblins because I don't think sort of yawgmoths will deck, that by some miracle (or bad piloting) has been grinded to a 3 card hand while the opponent still has half the counters in his deck all in his hand, is going to get through what you describe.

Personally I'm not having fun unless I'm playing through a Chalice, a Mindcensor, Force of Will, and a Mana Drain.  The solution for me is not to just play Tarmogoyf, it is just to do the math and figure out which plan gives you the best chance of winning and execute.

Anyway, who is their right mind is playing Flusterstorm and Mindbreak Trap in a sea of Workshops?  Definitely not the person at the top tables...

Here is an updated list:

1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual

4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm

4 Burning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll

1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

3 Fact or Fiction
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm

1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor

Sideboard
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind's Desire
1 Thoughtseize
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Island
1 Rushing River

I had a chance to play it against Show-And-Tell on Cockatrice and was happily impressed with how explosive this deck can be.  The next guy kicked me out of his game after I killed him on turn 1.  Fact or Fiction and Cruel Bargain are excellent.  I decided to cut BSC from the maindeck (And Tinker from the sideboard) to clear up the clutter and make Jace unncessary.  I've found that turn 1 Burning Wish, turn 2 Cruel Bargain is a fine play for setting up.  I'm thinking about adding a sorcery speed solution to BSC in the sideboard.  I think what makes Burning Wish especially good is that it is essentially 4 Tendrils of Agony in your deck.  Given some time with Grapeshot, I've learned how easy it is to get to storm 9.  With a Rebuild, a Dark Ritual, and a Burning Wish, its often the win.

[That0neguy]

Like I said, I came to the conclusion that this probably just wasn't going to get there.  But if it is ever going to be good, it needs to get more blue mana on t1/2.

Also, every reason you listed for why draw 7s are unplayable apply to Mind's Desire as well.  But mind's desire costs 8 vs 5.  But Reforge the soul gives you a second shot if you do run a mind's desire into a mind break trap, et al.

Also, you need to have actual bombs availible to cast off mind's desire.  Mind's desire was starting to get cut from many storm lists that were slowing down for disruption like TPS.  If you mind's desire for 6 and flip a couple lands a ritual and a gitaxian probe your going to fizzle.

[Lemnear]

Like I said, I came to the conclusion that this probably just wasn't going to get there.  But if it is ever going to be good, it needs to get more blue mana on t1/2.

Also, every reason you listed for why draw 7s are unplayable apply to Mind's Desire as well.  But mind's desire costs 8 vs 5.  But Reforge the soul gives you a second shot if you do run a mind's desire into a mind break trap, et al.

Also, you need to have actual bombs availible to cast off mind's desire.  Mind's desire was starting to get cut from many storm lists that were slowing down for disruption like TPS.  If you mind's desire for 6 and flip a couple lands a ritual and a gitaxian probe your going to fizzle.

Yes, mind's Desire suffers from the same fragility as the draw7 why I would skip that too even it has 2 clear advantages in being One-sided and cheats mana cost of the revealed cards. (uncounterable isn't a Real Argument with flusterstorm, misstep Ritual or SB mindbreak obv.)

@desolutionist:

I have no clue why you advertise a List with 3 FoF explosive unless you want to Adress the insane amount of mana sources in that List that brick the Deck again and again as i tested it. Paying 1RBBB and 9-10 Life for 4 cards is a good setup 4 you Off Turn 2? Rather run Mind twist. No shattering Spree (random sorc Speed artifacts removal) or Empty the warrens in SB?

- 3 FoF
- 1 Gifts
- 3 Cabal Ritual
- 1 mana vault
- 1 Mountain
- 1 Wheel
- 1 twister (move to SB)
- 1 Lotus petal
- 1 Rebuild

+ 4 bob
+ 4 Preordain
+ 1 ponder
+ 1 hurkyls
+ 2 Thoughtseize
+ 1 flusterstorm

from your list

[Worldslayer]

Few thoughts on this thread and/or Burning Wish from a long time combo player:

1) Going straight UR offers almost no tangible benefit over URB in Vintage. The mana is too easy for up to 3 colors, and Wasteland is going to get you if it's going to get you. Demonic, Vampiric, Consult, and Yawgmoth's Will are too central to the storm mechanic to exclude - they're not combo training wheels, they're your primary tires. Use them accordingly.

2) Even with four Burning Wish in the maindeck, you main your primary win conditions. I get that Burning Wish is the Mystery Box. "Anything could be in the Mystery Box! It could even be a boat. You know how much we always wanted one of those!" The most correct solution in the majority of cases is to just take the damned boat. Burning Wish IS highly functional when it represents four copies of a powerful restricted spell, like Desire, which you noted in your original post. I believe the CHOICE of Mind's Desire is incorrect a majority of the time when compared to Yawgmoth's Will, but that's my two cents. Point is, construct your deck normally as if you did NOT have access to Burning Wish, then slot Wish and put the sorcery card you most want four copies of in your board. Long.dec did this with a Yawgmoth's Will and a single Tendrils of Agony on the board, and a more recent example of a prominent Wish deck (Know and Tell a.k.a. Omniscience Petals in Legacy) uses the same thought process - the only cards that deck ever finds with Burning Wish are Show and Tell (for the combo) or Petals/Grapeshot (for the kill). The rest of most succesful boards may have one or two other targets, but will fetch one of those cards the vast majority of the time. The most important part is to stay on task, and stay efficient. Forceless or low-interaction hyperaggressive ritual decks have usually two turns at most to execute their game plan or lose the game.  

3) I believe Burning Wish is better suited to a Big Blue deck (or something like Omniscience Petals, where your "combo" really only hinges on one or two cards which Wish can access), though you could make a case for Drain Tendrils utilizing it (though Drain Tendrils is closer to a Big Blue deck than a Ritual Deck anyway). The addition of Burning Wish actually does very little for Ritual based combo's position in the metagame. It was ridiculous on speed the first time because we had access to 4 LED and the opposing strategems weren't super prepared to fight us - they were basically banking on Force of Will and maybe winning the die roll and playing Duress before we murdered them. These days their access to turn 0 disruption has gone up with the addition of Mindbreak Trap and Mental Misstep, and their turn 1 counters of Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm are huge. When they shut us down the first time, we had several turns to rebuild - Tog and Dryad and the like were clocks, and robots happened, but in general they were less adept at putting US on notice. These days you're going to walk into a Mental Misstep or Force of Will or Flusterstorm, and try to rebuild, and in the meantime they're going to have Jace locking you out or just VaultKey GeeGee you. It's not that the storm card pool has gotten much weaker, as I believe even 4 LED Long would have trouble with modern blue decks, but rather than our opposition has gotten so much stronger - both against us specifically (flusterstorm and MM maindeck in Big Blue, looking at you here. And YES, these are commonly maindecked cards in American Vintage) and in general (Lodestone Golem). Burning Wish in a traditional Ritual Combo shell actually does nothing to improve our position - it's primary function is really to improve consistency, which is NOT what is holding down Ritual Combo currently. We're already very consistent. The problem is that so is everyone else, and in the case of the two Big Kids in the Sandbox (big blue and shops) their consistent gameplan trumps ours because they have far more interaction and disruption than us in a relatively similar time frame, and their clock is only about a turn behind us unmolested in Big Blue (which they typically are) and "essentially instagib" in Shops. The metrics change the slower, more interactive, permanent mana-heavy and more nonlinear you get - but by then you're basically playing Big Blue.

4) Draw 7s are almost always terrible - the amount of times their hand is better than yours is roughly equivalent to the amount of times you play against a base blue deck, which is probably "very often", and the amount of times your hand is better is only slightly more than the number of times their hand doesn't matter and you're just destroying them, which is probably "fish", er, "not very often". With the access to large engines like Necro, Bargain, Ad Nauseum and a whole squad of efficient tutors (Demonic, Vampiric, Mystical, Personal sometimes, Grim, Demonic Consultation) it is almost never correct to play a draw 7. Even High Tide in Legacy only played a D7 because it untapped their lands.


Tl,dr: You maindeck like a normal combo deck, pick one or two cards to Wish for (like Yawgmoth's Will + Tendrils, Show and Tell + Petals) and play it as a slightly more consistent version of whatever you're playing. The cardinal sin of every wishboard is getting cute with it. Don't. Just kill them. For what it's worth, I recommend Wish more in a slower, more interactive "combo" deck like Big Blue or Drain Tendrils if you want to see a real difference. Wish is playable in hyper-aggressive ritual combo, but doesn't change too much - our cards aren't really our problem, if you understand me. It'll function fine, function aggressively, and lose to pretty much the same cards, hands, and decks we always did.

[desolutionist]

2) Even with four Burning Wish in the maindeck, you main your primary win conditions. I get that Burning Wish is the Mystery Box. "Anything could be in the Mystery Box! It could even be a boat. You know how much we always wanted one of those!" The most correct solution in the majority of cases is to just take the damned boat. Burning Wish IS highly functional when it represents four copies of a powerful restricted spell, like Desire, which you noted in your original post. I believe the CHOICE of Mind's Desire is incorrect a majority of the time when compared to Yawgmoth's Will, but that's my two cents. Point is, construct your deck normally as if you did NOT have access to Burning Wish, then slot Wish and put the sorcery card you most want four copies of in your board. Long.dec did this with a Yawgmoth's Will and a single Tendrils of Agony on the board, and a more recent example of a prominent Wish deck (Know and Tell a.k.a. Omniscience Petals in Legacy) uses the same thought process - the only cards that deck ever finds with Burning Wish are Show and Tell (for the combo) or Petals/Grapeshot (for the kill). The rest of most succesful boards may have one or two other targets, but will fetch one of those cards the vast majority of the time. The most important part is to stay on task, and stay efficient. Forceless or low-interaction hyperaggressive ritual decks have usually two turns at most to execute their game plan or lose the game

You definitely want your Burning Wish to be dynamic in not only being able to grab Yawgmoth's Will (if you have a graveyard), but also Mind's Desire (If you only have mana accel), or a draw spell to help draw into something thats going to get you there (Cruel Bargain).  If you've played with Yawgmoth's Will then you'd know that it can be a dead card well into the mid-game, but of-course having the option to grab it on turn 1 if you have a Lotus, Demonic, and Ancestral is good too.  If you're only playing Burning Wish to grab Yawgmoth's Will then you're going to be a sitting duck when all you have is a bunch of Rituals; this would otherwise be a Mind's Desire win.  So why construct the deck normally as if I did not have Burning Wish?  One of the strengths of Wish is that it can get you whatever you need; And you're saying that in most cases "it is more correct" to grab a Yawgmoth's Will.  

The most correct solution in the majority of cases is to just take the damned boat. Burning Wish IS highly functional when it represents four copies of a powerful restricted spell, like Desire

But then what if I want to play with 2 Yawgmoth's Will, 4 Mind's Desires, and 2 Tendrils of Agony?  Certainly Burning Wish could cover all that, right?  Isn't the fact that it can grab any of those cards in any given situation the reason it's extremely good?

Forceless or low-interaction hyperaggressive ritual decks have usually two turns at most to execute their game plan or lose the game

I would agree with this statement for Legacy, Modern, or Pauper but definitely not Vintage.  Vintage decks are so cluttered with disruption that your opponent often isn't winning on turn 2 and instead is just trying to stay alive.  From a Vintage Ritual standpoint, you're trying to widdle away at your opponent's disruption until you get something through and this could be as late as turn 3-4, and sometimes turn 10.

3) I believe Burning Wish is better suited to a Big Blue deck (or something like Omniscience Petals, where your "combo" really only hinges on one or two cards which Wish can access), though you could make a case for Drain Tendrils utilizing it (though Drain Tendrils is closer to a Big Blue deck than a Ritual Deck anyway).

Why? Why is Wish better when it is only going for one card?

The addition of Burning Wish actually does very little for Ritual based combo's position in the metagame.

The cards are so powerful in Vintage; the metagame is decided by the pilots not the cardpool.  I'm 100% convinced that the majority of Vintage players don't play at an optimal level.  That's why you'll see people like Rich Shay win a tournament with Elves!  Good Vintage pilots can pretty much play anything close to viable and win the tournament; the next thing you know, you have a slew of netdeckers hoping on the bandwagon.  Look at Landstill, for example.  Or heck, go to any Vintage tournament after Vintage Worlds.  Ritual has been and always will be a Vintage pillar.  I've played Rituals in the current metagame without Burning Wish and won (more than once) and I'm sure others have too...  I'm excited about Burning Wish because I believe it makes the deck more consistent and more fun.

It was ridiculous on speed the first time because we had access to 4 LED and the opposing strategems weren't super prepared to fight us - they were basically banking on Force of Will and maybe winning the die roll and playing Duress before we murdered them. These days their access to turn 0 disruption has gone up with the addition of Mindbreak Trap and Mental Misstep, and their turn 1 counters of Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm are huge. When they shut us down the first time, we had several turns to rebuild - Tog and Dryad and the like were clocks, and robots happened, but in general they were less adept at putting US on notice. These days you're going to walk into a Mental Misstep or Force of Will or Flusterstorm, and try to rebuild, and in the meantime they're going to have Jace locking you out or just VaultKey GeeGee you. It's not that the storm card pool has gotten much weaker, as I believe even 4 LED Long would have trouble with modern blue decks, but rather than our opposition has gotten so much stronger - both against us specifically (flusterstorm and MM maindeck in Big Blue, looking at you here. And YES, these are commonly maindecked cards in
American Vintage) and in general (Lodestone Golem).

I agree 4 LED Long wouldn't cut it in today's metagame.  (Notice I'm not playing Lion's Eye Diamond)  Blue decks have gotten new counters but the strategy for beating them remains the same.
 

Burning Wish in a traditional Ritual Combo shell actually does nothing to improve our position - it's primary function is really to improve consistency, which is NOT what is holding down Ritual Combo currently. We're already very consistent.  The problem is that so is everyone else, and in the case of the two Big Kids in the Sandbox (big blue and shops) their consistent gameplan trumps ours because they have far more interaction and disruption than us in a relatively similar time frame, and their clock is only about a turn behind us unmolested in Big Blue (which they typically are) and "essentially instagib" in Shops. The metrics change the slower, more interactive, permanent mana-heavy and more nonlinear you get - but by then you're basically playing Big Blue.

You'd be surprised how much that turn or two really matters.  You're winning game 1s against dredge and beating Shops before they get a turn.  It DOES happen.  (And this is why we don't play cards like Preordain or Dark Confidant, Lemnear )

4) Draw 7s are almost always terrible - the amount of times their hand is better than yours is roughly equivalent to the amount of times you play against a base blue deck, which is probably "very often", and the amount of times your hand is better is only slightly more than the number of times their hand doesn't matter and you're just destroying them, which is probably "fish", er, "not very often". With the access to large engines like Necro, Bargain, Ad Nauseum and a whole squad of efficient tutors (Demonic, Vampiric, Mystical, Personal sometimes, Grim, Demonic Consultation) it is almost never correct to play a draw 7. Even High Tide in Legacy only played a D7 because it untapped their lands.

The difference between Legacy and Vintage is that we have artifact mana.  You cannot overlook the advantages gained from a turn 1 Draw7 that leaves out a couple pieces of jewelry.  Often THIS IS the turn 1 win against Shops.  Ask any competent Shops player how important the mulligan is.  If you're on the play and not going to win this turn, Land, Mox, Mox, Timetwister is one of the BEST plays you can make.

I might add some more later.  I just don't get why people are trash talking Burning Wish and Rituals.  I need to make it out to the next tournament so I can put Workshops in their place and show some people how it's done.