Nether Void Aggro

[hippiechic]

I decided I wanted to run Nether Void mainly because it is the most detrimental sphere type effect I can think of. So, Shax and I sat down and played with some lists trying to figure out ways to abuse the card with newer cards that have been printed. Using some of the concepts from Guli's human deck on Cockatrice, we came up with this list:

Deck List:

4 Nether Void
1 Trinisphere

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Loxodon Smiter

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual

3 AEther Vial

1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
2 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tomb of Urami
1 Vault of Whispers


Deck design philosophy and selections explanation:

Basically the goal is to stick a sphere effect turn 1, much like shop decks do. The sphere effects we use are Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Nether Void, and Trinisphere though. Shop decks cheat their sphere effects with the Mishra's Workshop, but the mana for it cannot pay to play Nether Void or its sphere cost, so we had to take a different approach. Looking at the effect it produces, we noticed that anything that defeats the counter effect that people use Chalice of the Void for, also works against Nether Void. Guli had been playing around with a multi-coloured Human tribal deck running on Cavern of Souls. A modification of this shell has shown to be quite useful. Slotting in some AEther Vials and "can't be countered" effects as a backup to the Cavern, we created a fairly stable base for cheating the Void.

Both the Mayor and Smiter give the deck much needed reach since a 2/1 doesn't always cut it. The token generation from the flipped Mayor helps fight other aggro decks. Innately, the deck is resistant to counter based control decks and performs well versus many combo decks, especially storm based combo. Many shop decks also seem to be hit hard by the Void if they aren't running double tap lands. The deck performs poorly against other Cavern decks and heavy aggro.

Running the deck for about 6 hours on Cockatrice it beat a Menendian style Wish deck 2-1-0, 2x Shop decks 2-1-0 (with double tap lands) and 2-0-0 (without double tap lands), Mana Ichorid 2-1-0, Affinity 2-0-0, Mono-Black Affinity 2-1-0, Battle Cry Aggro 2-1-0, and Tidespout Oath 2-0-0. The deck did not lose a full match during this time but there is not enough data yet to determine proper ratios. From what I can tell, the deck should have lost to the Oath deck, and Mono-Black Affinity (he was cheating the Void with massive mana production like Lake of the Dead and Priest of Gix).

Some cards we have been playing around with are Abrupt Decay, Devout Chaplain, Rest in Peace, and Null Rod. The Chaplain seems to be too slow and require too many resources to get him online but the effect is what we are looking for. Something that cheats the Void and pops artifacts and enchantments. Abrupt Decay is a great removal card, I would like to have another option as well though. Rest in Peace is great and generally worth paying the 5/6 mana for when playing Dredge or grave based decks. Null Rod hurts the mana base we are running but the effects of turning off the opponent's jewelry is the desired result. We considered Chalice for this but the fact that if they can cheat the Void they can cheat the Chalice most likely and it turns off our moxen, makes it not favourable either.

With the Dark Ritual, Nether Void, and Thalia being dead cards in multiples or under Void effects, we added some Chrome Mox to help fix some of the mana problem and make those dead draws useful. I found that it is frequently worth paying 4 mana for a Chrome Mox, as mid to late game every mana counts and it helps the deck more consistently place a Void turn 1/2.

I would love to hear some ideas on more ways to cheat the void effect and/or pay into it better.

[John Jones]

So my understanding of this deck is this
1) run out fast mana and resolve nether void
2) cheat uncounterable guys into play
3) attack for the win

I see problems with the deck
1) having recovery - ie sans bob, if you lose the ca war you'll moat likely lose.
2) not being able to answer threats - ie BSC, Lodestone, etc

Questions
1) is vial necessary because cavern is not good enough on its own?
2) if you're running white why not run noble hirearch?
3) that is a lot of artifact mana, is it needed?//is a t1 nether void worth it. You actually have 30 total mana sources + 4 esg and 4 ritual

Comments
Nethervoid is a softlock at best with out additional mana denial
-null rod, stony silence, mox monkey, braids, port, smokestack etc
-have you considered mishras factory
- I think thoughtseize should be here somewhere
 
Idk ill post more I definitely think the deck has potential though

[hippiechic]

Yes, the goal of the deck is to stick a sphere effect turn 1, mainly Nether Void, then aggro them out with tech creatures. So far people have been dying to their own Bob because they can't cast the cards and eventually flip too much damage. There is a very good chance their Bob could out run mine depending on the rest of their build. I have an answer for him in the way of Abrupt Decay, though. I do not have an answer for Blightsteel or Lodestone. I haven't had someone get a Blightsteel out against me yet, but I would like to have a cheatable answer for handling the high cmc creatures like him, Emrakul, Tidespout, Griselbrand, etc. I don't know of a card that does this though.

The vial is not really required. It helps sometimes with playing a Spirit Guide or Sentinel because they aren't humans, but the Sentinel is uncounterable and you generally end up using the Spirit Guide as mana anyways. So that would free up 3 slots for me and maybe I could run Null Rod there then?? I really need the mox mana though for mid to late game. I chose against the Exalted creatures because I didn't want to focus on an 'all eggs in one basket' approach which seems to be a weakness of the exalted decks. Noble Hierarch also is bant colours, which I am not running. The black is required for the Nether Void. I would like a 1cmc Human though, I just hope Hierarch isn't the best fit. Though, she does directly assist with mid/late game mana problems so I could run Null Rod effects.

Is the turn 1 Nether Void worth it? Well if it sticks, they scoop. It's basically reads 'I win' versus most decks. It directly attacks the 3 most heavily relied upon mana bases used in Vintage currently. Null Rod effects provide a better hate towards the artifact mana base though. Especially if you are on the draw. With Wish on the rise, and all its ritual mana and desire to storm out, it is a direct counter to their goal. Shop crumbles if they rely on the Shop alone. So both of those decks turn into a coin flip match because its whether or not you stick a Thalia or Nether Void turn 1 or not. I have seen a Human deck running this same sort of shell that runs Ethersworn Cannonist as an alternative soft lock. It works well too, and is much easier to get out. It might be a better option, I have not tested it much yet.

We tried non-black mana and it made the opening hands very inconsistent. If you notice, the majority of the mana base produces 1 or more black as a minimum requirement. This is due to the cost of Nether Void and Dark Ritual. If Nether Void is swapped out for Cannonist, then I would not focus the mana base so heavily towards black. So Mishra's Factory would fit well in that probably. I do not count the Wastelands and Strip Mine towards the deck's mana base. I like the idea of black 1cmc discard. Possibly even Unmask since it turns a dead Nether Void or Dark Ritual into a live card mid to late game, I would have to play around with some hands to see if it disrupts the turn 1 Nether Void plays too much.

Ultimately this was a goal of making a deck around Nether Void and cheating the effect. I think the shell that's running it has even more potential just as a prison aggro deck in general. The human tribal has some very strong options and the 5 colours of the Cavern open up a lot of options most aggro decks don't get otherwise. I noticed Guli has a post on here about his human tribal deck and it's a great base for something more like a Cannonist approach. I took much of the idea of this deck from that base.

Edit: It may be worth looking at Braids, Cabal Minion to dump my own Bob when he becomes detrimental and set my opponent up for a hard lock.

[Lurker101]

I love Nether Void! I have a Void deck from a few years ago that used Vexing Shusher to cheat things through but I gave up on it being viable. I think the spirit guides are a great idea and I also think that Null Rod/Stony Silence should be included as well as some duress effects and maybe something like smallpox or diabolic edict in case an opposing threat gets through. I would also play Crucible for strip/waste lock. Maybe cut the vials and Smiters for Rod/Stony, crucible, and braids. Another card I ran was Necro, which might be worth testing. Lastly, why is Vault of Whispers in here? Cool list though, I would love for a Void deck to be viable.

[hippiechic]

Thanks! I always loved Nether Void too. I used to watch people play decks with Hypnotic Spectre and Juzam Djinn as their win con for the deck. When I went to do research on it more recently, the newest information on a decent build was dated 2002. I'm running the Vault of Whispers because it helps the artifact count for Mox Opal.

[Shax]

Hiya everyone. This Nether Void deck is for real. Mishra's Workshop cannot pay 3 to cast spells through Nether Void like it can through Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance because of the way Nether Void is worded. Burning Wish loses to x5 Trinisphere.

hippiechic has already explained such but for clarification. Likewise watching the games played with this deck showed...
 (As shown in the past with decks like Control Slaver, and now with Aggro) Control Slaver way back when there were x4 Trinisphere to play with could play the land game that Shops plays, and come out on top with control instants, sorceries and artifacts. The Aggro theory is that I might not always be able to play the land game (due to relying on Cavern of Souls), but I only need to resolve MY Nether Void to lock the Shop player out without even going to my next point. Shop players will try to escape the Nether Void with Ancient Tomb since Mishra's Workshop is just bad in multiples against N.Void. Ancient Tomb's life requirement is more relevant here since we are beating face. Thalia  combined with a Trinisphere and N.Void on the table force all players to pay   mana for non-creature spells, something Shop cannot do when they are leaning on non-basic resources, or even basic resources (Mountain Shops). Sticking a creature with this deck has always in testing made it even more detrimental than Trinisphere being on the table if Nether Void is active.

Imagine a sample hand like...
Cavern of Souls, Mana Crypt, Thalia,  Lotus, Ritual, Ritual Nether Void. So your line of play would be a turn 1 uncounterable Thalia with Mana Crypt, play out the rest of your hand with a Nether Void getting slammed down onto the table to end your turn. Paying 4 for non-creature spells is not really a plan people are prepared for, and this opening hand (barring the mana crypt you played on your turn) is uncounterable.

Sometimes, the lands that are terrible on paper( Tomb of Urami, Vault of Whispers) can win just because of those needed scenarios. I have seen a Tomb of Urami personally smash matches by itself because Void/Creatures building up to Urami was far too much hate. I was going to suggest a 4th Cavern of Souls to hippiechic to test with again, since I think this deck really wants that as it's uncounterable method of cheating the Void. Aether Vial gets hit by Null Rod, Mental Misstep so it is a liability looking down at it. The Aether Vial strengths however far outweigh risk since it only cost 1, and plays out most of the deck. This is the equivilent of our Skullclamp here when combined with x5 TriniVoid.

I think the plan of using a Guli-like Shell is just marginal enough to be pulled off.

I also playtested NetherVoid Stax again since why not? x5 TriniVoid. But that is like hippie's testing results, not meaningless but very frustrating for opponents that wanted a real Magic game.

[rmn]

I honestly think that the strategy of getting Nether Void into play turn 1 is too costly in that you have to run far too many mana sources to be able to pull it off consistently.  Those are slots that could be used for more disruption.  And I think the green creatures you have are just too vanilla to be worth it (except maybe ESG).  My first shot at a deck like this would be:

4 Thoughtsieze
2 Duress
4 Nether Void

4 Thalia
4 Dark Confidant
3 True Believer
4 Tidehallow Sculler
3 Aether Vial

Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Consultation
(maybe fit in an Imperial Seal if you own one)
2 Rest In Peace
1 Disenchant
1 Swords to Plowshares

Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Sol Ring
Black Lotus
Mana Crypt
Strip Mine
1 Chrome Mox
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Plains

This list will still be soft to creatures and might not fare quite as well vs shops, but seems better vs oath, big blue, and dredge.  I don't understand why you're not running the full tutor package.  At the very least replace one of your Nether Voids with a tutor, since you never need more than 1 in play.

I would like to fit in another 2 Moxen/Rituals if possible, and I'm torn between Aether Vial and Null Rod since you can't really run both.  If I took out the Vials I'd probably ake out the Scullers for Mishra's Factories.  I'm also concerned that 15 creatures is not enough.  But that's what I'd start with.

Good luck with the deck-- it would make my day to have someone post good results with Nether Void again

[Lurker101]

Thanks! I always loved Nether Void too. I used to watch people play decks with Hypnotic Spectre and Juzam Djinn as their win con for the deck. When I went to do research on it more recently, the newest information on a decent build was dated 2002. I'm running the Vault of Whispers because it helps the artifact count for Mox Opal.

If you want to see a version of my list it's in the Vintage Encyclopedia on this site under Nether Void decks. It was a good deck but it's pretty dated now. I agree that an early Void vs Shops is usually game, especially with strip/waste backup. Also, I think Devout Witness may be worth a shot. You can pitch extra voids/Thalias as well as anything else you don't need. You mentioned testing Devout Chaplin, but I think this may be better.

[hippiechic]

rmn, I chose against tutors because they cost +3/4 mana after a resolved Void and because most don't fetch me an opening hand Void. If I took the focus off sticking a sphere turn 1 then I would probably run less Voids and more control. I'm not really sure what you mean by 'too vanilla' though. Mayor provides the much needed reach the deck is lacking otherwise, and the Sentinel can be swapped out but he's a 3cmc 4/4 that no one can stop from coming into play, in a deck where the concept is to increase costs or counter them. He directly cheats the lock innately.

I would like to run Rod, this is a great option. I would have to drop AEther Vial though. As mentioned in Guli's thread, he has no answer for Moon effects, I do by way of AEther Vial. Is that even relevant though? I don't even know, because I haven't played against a Moon deck yet. At this point I see some suggestions for changes, most seem very valid for different reasons. The deck is proving itself as-is so far, so I am unlikely to change it much (if at all) until I see a problem I cannot handle at all or find a card that is an obvious 'why are you NOT running this?'

[Prkchpsndwiches]

What about Knight of the Reliquary over Smiter? Human, can get bigger than Smiter quickly, and can search a timely strip/waste or Urami. What does Vault do in this list. I honestly have no idea, lol.

Also fourth Caverns is a must. Putting all those resources into gettin a void out and then countered is a blowout. I feel like the deck needs another sphere effect to protect casting Nether, like Thorn.

Interesting idea overall.

[Lurker101]

I feel like the deck needs another sphere effect to protect casting Nether, like Thorn.
 

Glowrider would be better than thorn.

[hippiechic]

Knight is a pretty good suggestion. I did not realize he was a human. I will probably try him out. The 4th Cavern is sometimes detrimental to a turn 1 Void because it doesn't produce black for it. Also with Vials in the deck you don't need a 4th Cavern. If you drop the Vials then you would probably need a 4th Cavern though. I like the Sentinel mainly because even if I am playing against blue and cannot get any other effects into play, the Sentinel gives me a guaranteed creature. That ability alone cannot simply be discarded, but there are some alternate options definitely.

As stated twice earlier, the Vault of Whispers is 1.) it produces black mana for casting Void, and 2.) it adds to the artifact count of the deck to bring a Mox Opal online.

Glowrider is pretty good, the only thing I don't like is the 3cmc, but considering the effect it's worth it a lot of times.

[Prkchpsndwiches]

Played this on Cockatrice.  Very inconsistent.  Very rarely did I have a good opening hand.  Mana flooded frequently.

Fun idea, but I have to file it under "cute" in the Rolodex.  Cute decks are fun, but sexy wins.

[rmn]

Played this on Cockatrice.  Very inconsistent.  Very rarely did I have a good opening hand.  Mana flooded frequently.

Fun idea, but I have to file it under "cute" in the Rolodex.  Cute decks are fun, but sexy wins.

This is also my main concern; by focusing on a T1 void you have to put so much mana that you will get flooded regularly; and even the god hand of Caverns -> Thalia -> Void leaves you with little more than a 2/1 on the table, potentially giving your opponent a lot of time to find answers.

How often do you find yourself taking mulligans?

EDIT: How does the deck fare when you don't draw Void/Sphere?

[Guli]

I enjoy to see new attempts to supplement the Human Cavern Shell. That being said, my question or concern is if Void is worth all it. After MONTHS of design and testing I still have am not satisfied what the last 10-15 slots should be. I tried various things. I do know this:

- You want to run bombs aka must counters like thalia, bob and mayor. With bomb I mean in most match ups. So when you cast these cards, it will cause issues for the opponent over the long run.
- The more creatures the better. Especially with Thalia in the deck. But it is possible to run non creatures.
- Recently I started running Ancient Tomb to combat early golems and sphere effects AND to power out more expensive Humans or cards. (Nether Void could be interesting in this regard)

My issue is also running things like Dark Ritual and Mana Vault in a deck with Thalia. I think this deck would be better of trying to use Tangle Wires. When playing Human Cavern, I never really need my opponent to completely be locked out of the game. The deck does not need to go that extreme to win games.


my 2 cents,

Good luck and keep reporting your results here!

[hippiechic]

rmn, I do aggressive mulligan this deck a lot looking for turn 1 sphere effects. An opening of Thalia+Void does give you 5 turns before your opponent can do anything in most cases, that's at least 8-10 damage from just the Thalia, assuming you draw nothing else relevant. I try to combat this issue with Bob though.

Guli, no the human deck does not *need* to stick a Void to win. The deck's purpose is to play Void though. It may fit better in a stax shell though that does run Wires and the such. We have been trying to get it to work in that shell.

Prkchp, this isn't Wish and isn't going to open with a 7 card God hand most games, you have to treat it more like Dredge when looking at your opening hand. Ctrl+M is your friend.

[Blue Lotus]

If i was to play this deck it would look like this:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Nether Void

4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim lavamancer
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Yixlid Jailer

3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress

2 Dismember

1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 imperial seal (hate this card)

23 mana (you want to get to four consistently on the play)

8 solomoxcrypt

4 bloodstained mire
4 badlands
4 wasteland
1 stripmine
1 polluted delta
1 wooded foothills

So the main issue I see with this deck is that your main hate card, nether void, costs 4 mana. You have to add more mana to reliably get to four and therefore decrease your threat density.

[serracollector]

i like the concept and have tried several variants myself. no pt in givn my full lists but some suggestions.

lotus cobra ~ turn 1 is turn 2 void. can power 3 mana for 1 fetch to get round void. works well w kor making it a mana source sacclng lands for fetches and getting a lotus+ every turn.

contagion ~ chuck an extra void or bob to help those aggro matches.

great sable stag ~ kills jace and grixis sans their 1 bolt. possible sb card.

if you run 4 kor i suggest all 5 strips maybe even 1 ghost quarter in side and run 1-3 extirpate in your main/sb. exttirpating even 1 nonbasic under void is very detrimental.



vexing shusher obv reasons imo.

gl

[Bill Copes]

Here's what I'm goldfishing:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Heirarch
4 Quasali Pridemage
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Yixlid Jailer


4 Nether Void
3 Thought seize
2 Duress
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
5 moxen
4 Cavern of Souls
4 wasteland
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
1 stripmine

It's pretty linear.  Make mana dudes and drop bobs. Duress.  Drop void.  Win with exalted.  Deathrite Shaman and Pridemage add range to the disruption.  Aven Mindcensor aids in mana denial and is a beast with exalted triggers.  Since it's tight on space, I opted for a 5c mana base.  The crucible is there for random awesome and to facilitate Nether-lock.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I'd drop the 5c mana lands and add some duals + fetches.  Deathrite fixes mana, and fetches feed deathrite, which adds to your speed.

[Bill Copes]

I'd drop the 5c mana lands and add some duals + fetches.  Deathrite fixes mana, and fetches feed deathrite, which adds to your speed.

Please example me a mana base, if you have the chance.  6 Slots seems tough. Drop some caverns?