Bomberman Redux

[Samoht]

Jace is hard to play under resists but you only have to pay the resistor tax once.   Snapcaster becomes really difficult to pay the resister tax since you have to pay it twice once for Snappy and again for the flashback card.

what's the difference between Jace and Snapcaster + Swrds to Plowshares?
with 1 Sphere/Golem: None
With 1 Thorn: Snapcaster +StP is cheaper

WIth 2+ Resistor: you might just can't play Jace, snapcaster would be a chump block (even though that should be irrelevant I guess)

We made 22 games yesterday against ichorid:
OTPlay I won 6-4, Rest in Peace would have been good I guess
OTD, tied 6-6, Rest in Peace would have been so bad! You really can't affort doing nothing on your first turn or you're going to die...
I was playing 2 surgical (2 snaps) and 2 cages, the non-synergic has been problematic... could not flashback surgical twice because of cage

RiP is quite fine against Dredge. In fact, if you're afraid of letting them have 1 turn in a diluted deck(post SB they bring in more protection), you're probably doing something wrong. Even then, you have 5 Mox's and a Mana Crypt to get it out there on t1 and FoW to prevent your death to Dread Return. Cutting Mana Crypt is a mistake.

Snapcaster has an irrelevant body and requires you to have already used StP to be good. That is a big problem. You also don't win the game if you resolve Snapcaster. Resolving Jace against Shops is generally game over, unless they have Revoker/Panther. One is fairly easy to deal with and the other has fallen out of favor. In either case, you have a better plan in that match up (Devout Witness).

[Kirika]

What are your opinions about Notion Thief and Council of the Absolute from Dragon's Maze? 

They probably both cost too much at 4 Mana which is Jace territory but are worth mentioning.

Notion Theif the Jace mugger sounds decent as a sideboard in the Jace mirror.  Castable off a Cavern of Souls on Humans you can flash it in in response to their Jace storm and you draw 3 they have to put back 2 and you have a 3 power creature to hit Jace with which likely will kill Jace if they didn't fate seal first.    4 mana is likely too much as it comes to late to hit Ancestral and Brainstorm unless they are top decked.   

Council of the Absolute is also castable off a Cavern of Souls on Human and you can name Jace with it making your opponent unable to cast Jace and your Jace costs UU.   As a 2/4 it blocks any Dark Confidants or Snapcasters they may have and doesn't die to a single Lightning Bolt.

@Cruel Ultimatum
Your right about Yawgmoth's Will coming down to playstyle.  I don't like taping out for Yawgmoth's Will either but as a long time Keeper player I always liked the broken Yawg Win and the ability to come back it gave.   Sure sometimes Snapcaster used your Ancestral Recall or Time Walk but sometimes Yawgmoth's Will gets you the discarded or destroyed Key or Time Vault and win.

@CwaM
Congratulations on your win.

I haven't found black mana to be too much of an issue except against Wasteland decks.  You can cast Dark Confidant off Cavern of Souls on Human and that leaves you with Demonic Tutor that you want to cast early.   Yawgmoth's Will is a mid to late game card usually.

Difference between Jace and Snapcaster is Jace wins the game by himself if left unchecked.   Snapcaster needs to recur something for advantage which is difficult under resistors and is unlikely to win the game as a 2/1 beater.

I board out my Snapcasters in the dredge match up.  I bring in the full 6 cards against dredge in addition to the Nihil Spellbomb main

+2 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Tormod's Crypt
-1 Yawgmoth's Will, -2 Mana Drain, -2 Snapcaster Mage, -1 Thirst for Knowledge

I don't like Surgical Extraction.  It takes 2 Surgicals to cripple dredge where 1 Rest in Peace just locks them out of the game unless they kill it and hopefully you have a counterspell for when they try and kill it.

@Samoht
Dredge and Workshops are the two match ups that I miss the Mana Crypt.   I've lost too many games to Mana Crypt damage to put it back in without Tinker being in the deck at this point.

Devout Witness is great vs shops as long as you can actually resolve it and your opponent and your opponent doesn't have a Revoker plus you have the mana to use it, hence needing a basic plains.

[CwaM]

@Samoht: even though it seems that ichorid doesn't use dredge return anymore, you'll be dead on your 2nd turn becuase of cabal therapies
Concerning the mana crypt, I might be wrong by not playing it, but I'm playing the full moxen set also! Also, I took so many damages from dark confidant that I would not play the mana crypt (even more when not playing tinker)

@Kirika: Indeed, we have been disappointed seeing how surgical was against dredge. And even though ravenous trap is 4 manas (dark confidant!), we'll try it again!
We are also considering replacing the MD  Engineered Explosives by another spellbomb as the EE is not that needed anymore when comboing out (here comes Tvault Key)

More testing will come and I'll share those

[Watanabe]

Hi there !

I am the finalist of the tournament won by CwaM and was not exactly playing the same list. I kept the 3 MD Islands 'cause basics seem to be such a manadatory game plan against MUD.

As mentionned, we tested against Dredge and my opinion is that we have the right number of hate slot in the deck but they are not as efficient as needed. I share CwaM's feeling about RiP as 2-manas hates are just "bad" against dredge since you can't play it on turn 1.
However, since Dredge does not include Dread Return, I think we can test one or two RiP and prey with our 6 free counter (Misstep and FoW) that we will survive one turn to play it, hoping we won't have a zombie invasion during that time...

+1 on mana crypt ! Since I play the deck, I never missed it !

@Kirika:
I guess Council is just bad as it costs too much than his effect. I'd rather playing Jace than playing council to play Jace after that.
For Thief, I really like the idea since it is a human (cavern) and it will not be attended. The issue is : which card do you want to remove from the SB to add it ?


Concerning Devout Witness, I'm really surprized on how you can play a 3CCM card and pass the turn, hoping not to die before having an effect ? I played Energy Flux during the tournament and was "happy" about it with the addition of other hates to manage with creatures (StP and Disenchant).

[Samoht]

Let's assume we're on the play. We play land go. They play Bazaar go. We play land + RiP, seems fine.

Let's assume they're on the play. They play Bazaar go. We play Land + Mox/Crypt + RiP, seems fine.

Let's assume they're on the play. They play Bazaar go.  We play Land pass. They have to have 1-2 Dredgers, multiple Cabal Therapy and Bridges, and at least 1 Narcomeba(has to flip)/Bloodghast(w/ 2nd Land) all in say 15 cards (best case scenario for them) Even with all of that, we can still Misstep/Fow our way into a RiP. They might have 2-3 Zombies, but we have creatures too.

The fact that RiP is a Leyline+Tormod's Crypt at 2 is absurd. The fact that it "turns off" our combo is irrelevant because it destroys their plan. You make them a terrible Fish deck and you will win every time. Also, Trinket Mage -> Engineered Explosives is a great play for us.

[Watanabe]

We tested with the list that won LCV in march.

Let's assume we're on the play. We play land go. They play Bazaar go. We play land + RiP, seems fine.

They activate Bazar, play Unmask.

Let's assume they're on the play. They play Bazaar go. We play Land + Mox/Crypt + RiP, seems fine.

Same than #1

Let's assume they're on the play. They play Bazaar go.  We play Land pass. They have to have 1-2 Dredgers, multiple Cabal Therapy and Bridges, and at least 1 Narcomeba(has to flip)/Bloodghast(w/ 2nd Land) all in say 15 cards (best case scenario for them) Even with all of that, we can still Misstep/Fow our way into a RiP. They might have 2-3 Zombies, but we have creatures too.

Dredge, with only 1 BoB can dredge until 18 cards at his first turn. It is 30% of his deck to fine let's say 2 cabal (or 1 in yard another in hand) and 2 creatures. I guess there is a significant percentage that it can happen. That can work with a land+ Fatestitcher also.


I'm not saying that RiP is awful, is useless or whatever. I'm just saying that there are multiple (a lot of ?) situations where it is not as efficient as what you can imagine.
However I'll test it 'cause I think that it is one of the best hate after turn1. I mean, I'd rather having a tormod / nihil in my opening hand and let him manage with it the time I can draw my RiP few turns after, than having a RiP in my opening hand and draw Trmod / nihil after.

[Samoht]

We tested with the list that won LCV in march.

Let's assume we're on the play. We play land go. They play Bazaar go. We play land + RiP, seems fine.

They activate Bazar, play Unmask.

Let's assume they're on the play. They play Bazaar go. We play Land + Mox/Crypt + RiP, seems fine.

Same than #1

Let's assume they're on the play. They play Bazaar go.  We play Land pass. They have to have 1-2 Dredgers, multiple Cabal Therapy and Bridges, and at least 1 Narcomeba(has to flip)/Bloodghast(w/ 2nd Land) all in say 15 cards (best case scenario for them) Even with all of that, we can still Misstep/Fow our way into a RiP. They might have 2-3 Zombies, but we have creatures too.

Dredge, with only 1 BoB can dredge until 18 cards at his first turn. It is 30% of his deck to fine let's say 2 cabal (or 1 in yard another in hand) and 2 creatures. I guess there is a significant percentage that it can happen. That can work with a land+ Fatestitcher also.


I'm not saying that RiP is awful, is useless or whatever. I'm just saying that there are multiple (a lot of ?) situations where it is not as efficient as what you can imagine.
However I'll test it 'cause I think that it is one of the best hate after turn1. I mean, I'd rather having a tormod / nihil in my opening hand and let him manage with it the time I can draw my RiP few turns after, than having a RiP in my opening hand and draw Trmod / nihil after.

Luckily we don't play FoW at all so Unmask always crushes us. We would never mulligan a hand that had no other protection and was dead to Unmask. Yup.

As far as a Dredge 18, we're talking 2 Trolls and them getting 2 Bazaar activations (1 to dump, 1 to Dredge). That's a bit excessive to go with a Bazaar and Unmask + Black Card. I can construct god hands for any deck that will be fast as hell. It's unrealistic for this to happen with any degree of regularity. I think a 15 card dredge is still respectable and even on the upper echelon of outcomes for them. If you are so concerned just play Leyline as you're in black anyway. I prefer the straight UW version and RiP has been so amazing for me I can't imagine playing anything else in its place.

[Watanabe]

Ok so your hand is Land mox RiP FoW Ucard and 2 other cards...

Maybe my english is bad (I'm French), but my opinion is not to say that RiP is the worst card ever against Dredge. It is just to say that there are plenty of situations where it is not as good as you estimate it.

When you say :

That's a bit excessive to go with a Bazaar and Unmask + Black Card. I can construct god hands for any deck that will be fast as hell. It's unrealistic for this to happen with any degree of regularity.

My only answer is :
Ok, but if you just want to test against Dredge with a mull3 every game, I'm not sure it is very relevant. When I test against dredge, I want to test against dredge "full weapon". For example, in our test with CwaM, I always keep a 6 cards hand in which I add a BoB. That way, we can really have a good opinion on the different cards we're testing.

And I'm not sure that hands with BoB + Unmask + Black card is  so hard to get. Even more when a BoB activation gives you 2 more cards.

[Kirika]

@CwaM
I haven't been impressed with Surgical Extraction period in Vintage or Legacy.   Ability of Rest in Peace to just turn off graveyard strategies is just game winning.   Dredge can come back from single use grave yard removal and it is possible for the dredge player to destroy Cage by using Thug's ability to recur an Ingot Chewer. Rest in Peace just locks them out.   They either have the Nature's Claim or likely lose if they didn't have a crazy first turn.

I don't really think removing the maindeck Explosives is such a good idea.  Its a catch all that removes anything that costs 5 or less and you can recur it with Salvagers.  It kills those 18 Goblins from Storm, opposing Dark Confidant or fish creatures.   Gets rid of moxes if your opponent has a bunch and you have none.  Its just so useful.

@Watanabe
Rest in Peace is good not because it locks out the Dredge player unless they have the Nature's Claim to destroy it.   With Moxes you can play it turn 1 sometimes.

Engineered Explosives is pretty good at taking care of the Zombie Invasion and is tutorable with Trinket Mage.

I think you need to test straight drawing naturally and not starting with 6+BoB all the time since with 4 BoB and 4 Serum Powder you have a 54% chance of having BoB in your oppening 7 and a 22% of having a BoB in an oppening 6 if you did not have it in your openning 7.  Don't remember the numbers for 5 cards and lower but mulls to 3 and not finding a BoB aren't all that common.  You also have to factor in that you want a Dredge card in your openning hand with the BoB which is hard to figure out the percentages for.   Disruption is tertiary after aggressively mulliganing for BoB + Dredge card.

I was more thinking of Council sideboard if you run into lots of Landstill or U/W bomberman.  They have 3-4 Jaces to your 2-3 (I run 3 was 4).  If you have a 2/4 that locks them out of Mishras beats.  Probably is bad as like you said you would want the 3rd and probably 4th Jace before the first Council.

I'd consider playing Notion Theif main deck in the V. Clique slot if there wasn't so much Workshop in the North East US.  Might cut the 2nd Steel Sabotage since it only shines on the play versus Workshop.  I cut the first Steel Sabotage for Trinisphere because I have issues with Burning Oath and with Regrowth unrestricted we will likely see Regrowth Gush.

I prefer Devout Witness because it destroys stuff of your choosing and is easier to cast dodging Thorns as a creature.   If I untap with a Devout Witness and the basic plains + 2 + other mana I'm feeling pretty good about winning, barring a Revoker or Duplicant.  Energy Flux I find is pretty difficult to cast once resistors start coming down and with Ancient Tomb and Mishras they can just pay for their Lodestone Golem and bash you for 5.  Kataki is easier to cast and can actually swing for damage and block if you have to.

Your looking at the probability for BoB + Dredge card + Unmask + Black card.   4 cards is a harder to find then 3.  Math for that is too complicated for me with Serum powder + mulligans in the mix.

@Samoht
Totally agree with you about Rest in Peace being the blow out versus Dredge.  You can get hit by discard but thats what counterspells are for.

[CwaM]

We have been disappointed about the surgical extractions and we'll try some Rest In Peace/Tormod's crypt in those slots.
About the test with 6 cards+BoB we really liked this. I really prefer to get some nice stats against a full powered dredge (we are not doing the bazaR + land + claim + unmask + black cards + dredge though :p ) as I expect to win against dredge instead of dredge losing itself

Concerning the EE, I'll keep because it's versatile and it's like "never bad". (but i do think it's bad at killing zombies - just meaning it's not the type of hate you really want but it's still an emergency button)

We should also have some time to test against MUD (metalworker build, no stax build in our area), we'll try those devout witness if possible

Also, if playing the UW version, I would try those notion thief which should be really good (but would need the 5 moxen and mana crypt imho), I can't see myself playing this version, do you really beat fish and MUD with that build? It seems to me that they are too many overcosted card in the maindeck (2 auriok, 4 jaces, 4 trinket... so much!). The  esper version needs less mana and I'm pretty happy with it.

About the dredge 4 cards against 3 cards: It's really not the same, considering Dredge avec serum power, is running 4 BoB, 4 serum; 4 unmaks, many black cards whereas bomberman runs 2(3?) rest in peace

[Samoht]

We have been disappointed about the surgical extractions and we'll try some Rest In Peace/Tormod's crypt in those slots.
About the test with 6 cards+BoB we really liked this. I really prefer to get some nice stats against a full powered dredge (we are not doing the bazaR + land + claim + unmask + black cards + dredge though :p ) as I expect to win against dredge instead of dredge losing itself

Concerning the EE, I'll keep because it's versatile and it's like "never bad". (but i do think it's bad at killing zombies - just meaning it's not the type of hate you really want but it's still an emergency button)

We should also have some time to test against MUD (metalworker build, no stax build in our area), we'll try those devout witness if possible

Also, if playing the UW version, I would try those notion thief which should be really good (but would need the 5 moxen and mana crypt imho), I can't see myself playing this version, do you really beat fish and MUD with that build? It seems to me that they are too many overcosted card in the maindeck (2 auriok, 4 jaces, 4 trinket... so much!). The  esper version needs less mana and I'm pretty happy with it.

About the dredge 4 cards against 3 cards: It's really not the same, considering Dredge avec serum power, is running 4 BoB, 4 serum; 4 unmaks, many black cards whereas bomberman runs 2(3?) rest in peace

I think we're playing the deck very differently. Mana and it's acquisition is never a problem. Justin (Pokey) and I have had great success whenever we put the UW deck to work, with him in particular dominating for over a year now(while I putter around playing other lists). He's amicably known as "Turn 1 Jace" for his aptitude at putting that together with more regularity than most others. Mana has really never been a problem that we face. Have you played the list and had the issue, or was that based solely on theory?

I won't get into the specifics of lines and trees, but our Shop match up is much better as we only have to support 2 colors and thus have access to more basics/consistency. As such, we can easily acquire the mana that so concerns you, and play the cards that generate such advantages as Trinket Mage and Jace and Salvagers(which is by far the worst card in the deck and gets boarded out against Shops). Devout Witness is quite stellar as well. Fish is significantly more problematic, but it can be managed with proper sideboard preparation and main deck construction (cards like Swords to Plowshares in the Main) to give us an otherwise unexpected edge. Of course, EE on 2 is generally very potent against Merfolk. If you mean Noble Fish, it does quite fine as it sports a bevy of creatures that trade favorably.

UW Bomberman is generally on 4 RiP and 2 Grafdigger's Cage with splash hate cards like Pithing Needle and Engineered Explosives in the main(occasionally swapping 1 GDC for the Needle). I've recently added Ravenous Trap to my list to great success. It accomplishes what Surgical Extraction is trying to do, but significantly better. Justin recently cut 1 of the RiP's for a Tormod's Crypt(so he can Trinket for it and play it on only 3 mana). We have had little to no problem against dredge, and have won several G1's and most of our 2/3's. Main deck GDC is much stronger than the Spellbomb that Esper plays against them.

[CwaM]

I must admit that I didn't really played the deck, I goldfished it a little bit and was feeling that my hands were terrible.
I guess we'll give it a try in some playtesting this week. If your feedbacks about the dredge match up are that good, I have to see that!

About the mana, I'm more concerned about the tempo that it seems you are losing by playing those 2 Auriok, 4 Jaces, 4 trinkets, 2 clique instead of playing dark confidant than the mana itself.

Concerning fish, Merfolks doesn't see play in Europe, so we are more focused on Bant (stony silence being pretty hard) or BUG fish (decays are so good).

We made some more tests against ichorid (by using the same method : 6 cards + bazaar) as I promised  I made 6-2 on the play, but 4-8 on the draw... not really great (but yes, that is always playing against full powered ichorid, we want to have a deck that is prepared for the ichorid match up. As I said earlier, I want to win, not dredge losing by itself, evnen though I'll take it in tourney  )
Surgical was indeed bad. Rest in Peace lost me 2 games out of 8 where I could not cast it turn 1. But here again, I'm not playing the 5th moxen and the mana crypt. I do really like ravenous trap, really one of the best card you can have again st dredge.
I do agree about the spellbomb vs cage in the MD.

Hope I'll come back very soon with some new tests with the UW version so I can understand your statements


(about the mud MU, what does your siding plans look like? I really feelyou are very low on hate... You keep telling me about that devout witness while you are only running one!)

[Kirika]

@CwaM
Notion Theif has black in its costing cost so you can not run it in the UW version.   Will have to test Notion Theif in Esper Bomberman though sounds decent for Jace Mirrors but deck and board are so tight not sure what to cut for a Notion Theif.

Blue White Bomberman has better manabase and more counterspells while the Esper Bomberman version adds black for more draw power via Dark Confidant, Tutor(s) and brokenness via Yawgmoth's Will but mana is not as good and runs less counterspells.   Its really personal preference which version you like.  I like drawing cards and brokeness so I run the Esper version.

After board I have 2 Grafdigger's Cage,1 Nihil Spellbomb, 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Tormod's Crypt for grave yard hate vs dredge in addition to Pithing Nddle to shut down Bazaar and Engineered Explosives to kill Zombies if I need to.

Devout Witness is pretty much wins the game against Workshop if you can resolve it and can pay for its ability and they don't have the Revoker or Duplicant answer.  Lot of ifs but unanswered if your not facing lethal next turn it just wins.   Only 1 Devout Witness because you want to diversify your hate since Devout Witness does get shut down by Revoker. 

My board vs shops running Esper is
+1 Devout Witness, +2 Disenchant, +1 Kataki, +1 Serenity +1 Pithing Needle (Bazaar, Metal Worker, or Welder)  +1 Steel Sabotage, +2 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Auriok Salvagers, -1 Flusterstorm, -2 Mental Mistep -2 Snapcaster Mage, -1 Thirst for Knowledge -1 Yawgmoth's Will

If you want to beat Merfolk, Supreme Verdict does a good job of it but the match up isn't that common.

@Samoht
Justin played turn 1 Jace last time I played against him at Top Deck Games.  He made the argument for 4 Jace.  I tried 4 for a couple tournaments but trying Vendilion Clique in place of the 4th Jace right now.

I find the Shops match up for any Jace deck isn't particularly good unless your on the Baleful Strix, Dark Confidant, Goblin Welder version and even then going second is still not so good.

[Samoht]

@Samoht
Justin played turn 1 Jace last time I played against him at Top Deck Games.  He made the argument for 4 Jace.  I tried 4 for a couple tournaments but trying Vendilion Clique in place of the 4th Jace right now.

I find the Shops match up for any Jace deck isn't particularly good unless your on the Baleful Strix, Dark Confidant, Goblin Welder version and even then going second is still not so good.

He and I disagree about that. I'm in your camp, 3 is the right number. I also think that 2 Top is 1 too many, but Justin has held firm and his results do speak for themselves (though I fear the use of results oriented decisions). Unfortunately, while he remains in the 4x camp I have obligated myself to keeping serve, which might still be wrong. We have Clique in our list either way. Shops is just making sure that you counter the right spell. Understand that you can't win them all, and it is simply more obvious when you won't win the Shop game than in the Blue mirror.

[Pokey]

Not sure why everyone is so hung up on playing Bobs.  In the last seven PA/NJ tourneys, I've had six finals appearances and one top 4 playing U/W.  Played the exact same 75 every time.

If that's not a resume for the deck, then I don't know what is.

[vaughnbros]

Not sure why everyone is so hung up on playing Bobs.  In the last seven PA/NJ tourneys, I've had six finals appearances and one top 4 playing U/W.  Played the exact same 75 every time.

If that's not a resume for the deck, then I don't know what is.

It doesn't gold fish well though.

[psyburat]

Not sure why everyone is so hung up on playing Bobs.  In the last seven PA/NJ tourneys, I've had six finals appearances and one top 4 playing U/W.  Played the exact same 75 every time.

If that's not a resume for the deck, then I don't know what is.

Everyone wants to find the next best thing, while completely ignoring the current best thing.  More players are prone to writing about Vintage than actually playing it, and this thread confirms that.

[Pokey]

Not sure why everyone is so hung up on playing Bobs.  In the last seven PA/NJ tourneys, I've had six finals appearances and one top 4 playing U/W.  Played the exact same 75 every time.

If that's not a resume for the deck, then I don't know what is.

It doesn't gold fish well though.

Who cares what turn you win on, when your opponent is doing nothing?  I'll just assume that you are joking.

[cvarosky80]

Not sure why everyone is so hung up on playing Bobs.  In the last seven PA/NJ tourneys, I've had six finals appearances and one top 4 playing U/W.  Played the exact same 75 every time.

If that's not a resume for the deck, then I don't know what is.

Everyone wants to find the next best thing, while completely ignoring the current best thing.  More players are prone to writing about Vintage than actually playing it, and this thread confirms that.

These 2 speak the truth right here.

[vaughnbros]

Not sure why everyone is so hung up on playing Bobs.  In the last seven PA/NJ tourneys, I've had six finals appearances and one top 4 playing U/W.  Played the exact same 75 every time.

If that's not a resume for the deck, then I don't know what is.

It doesn't gold fish well though.

Who cares what turn you win on, when your opponent is doing nothing?  I'll just assume that you are joking.

It was intended as a joke there isn't really a way to type tone of voice.  From what I've read in this forum that seems like the only reasoning people are giving.  Poorly constructed reasoning, but reasoning nonetheless.

In the end does it really matter all that much if no one else is playing an optimal bomber man list?  It just means that you get to continue to crush them at all the tournaments.

[A.-1.]

Not sure why everyone is so hung up on playing Bobs.  In the last seven PA/NJ tourneys, I've had six finals appearances and one top 4 playing U/W.  Played the exact same 75 every time.

If that's not a resume for the deck, then I don't know what is.

QFT, man. You're the Rodney Dangerfield of Vintage. If results are all that matter -- and a lot of people seem to think this way, then there shouldn't be much room for debate anymore.

If you want to do well, play Bomberman. If you want to win, play UW Bomberman.

[Samoht]

Not sure why everyone is so hung up on playing Bobs.  In the last seven PA/NJ tourneys, I've had six finals appearances and one top 4 playing U/W.  Played the exact same 75 every time.

If that's not a resume for the deck, then I don't know what is.

QFT, man. You're the Rodney Dangerfield of Vintage. If results are all that matter -- and a lot of people seem to think this way, then there shouldn't be much room for debate anymore.

If you want to do well, play Bomberman. If you want to win, play UW Bomberman.

I know for a fact he gets a ton of respect from everyone in the room in the events he's at. In the community at large, most people don't understand the level of Vintage we play here in the NE because their local scene is generally so different. Watch him do well at GenCon this year and people will change their tune.

[magic_gazz]

I was wondering if anyone could talk to me a little bit about this deck. It feels a little underpowered compared to what a lot of decks are running.

What are the advantages to running this over another control deck like Grixis?

I see this deck is putting up a lot of good results but it is mostly all one person. Is the deck that good or is it just down to an amazing pilot?

[Samoht]

I was wondering if anyone could talk to me a little bit about this deck. It feels a little underpowered compared to what a lot of decks are running.

What are the advantages to running this over another control deck like Grixis?

I see this deck is putting up a lot of good results but it is mostly all one person. Is the deck that good or is it just down to an amazing pilot?

Justin is no slouch. The following is not intended to take away from him at all as his success speaks for itself. Several other pilots have done well with the UW list, and a few other with the B splash. This deck is not flashy, it is consistent. It plays the key broken cards(FoW, Ancestral, Jace) while supporting itself on a bunch of toolbox creatures. Finally, it has an infinite combo that is essentially inevitable as the game continues. Cavern of Souls allowing for the Blue mirror to be dominated was the final piece the deck needed to take over. It is still defeatable, but most people approach the match wrong and thus are at a loss at the start. When played correctly, this deck has significant advantage to Grixis. Most overt is the opponent's unfamiliarity with the deck and its strategies. Furthermore, you gain access to powerful cards (Rest in Peace, Devout Witness, Swords to Plowshares, possibly Serenity, Balance) at the expense of giving up red (Ingot Chewer/Goblin Welder/REB/Bolt) or Black* (YW/DT/VT/Leyline/Jailer) for Trinket Mages and Salvagers. Sure, you could slap those bad boys into a URB control list, but a lot of their efficacy and value is diminished. In this deck, Trinket Mage is often your DT, as you either want Lotus, Spellbomb, or one of your toolbox targets to start taking the game over. The ability to land Trinket Mage and then drop Lotus to leave up Drain + Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce/Spell Snare is rather strong, especially when inaction means you have Jace + Drain on the next turn. The clock against a goldfish is roughly the same as it is against a player. That doesn't mean the deck is bad or weak, just methodical.

[magic_gazz]

Thanks for the response. I am very new to the format and have my first tournament tomorrow. Only 12 hours left to decide what to play.

Bomberman was the first deck I looked at and it seems like it is pretty solid. I have played some games with it but some times found that I had a bunch of Trinket Mages and nothing good to do with them. I could search for a bunch of mana and Top but it wasn't helping me to win. I often wished that some of them were other cards. I don't think I have seen any lists with less than 4 Trinket Mage so I assume it is a very important part of the deck.

After that I saw a Grixis deck that I liked the look of (Strix/Welder) and have been playing that since. I quite enjoy playing that deck but wonder if I am being distracted by the power of doing cool things rather than a deck that just wins.

I am guessing the tournament tomorrow will be mostly Control decks followed by Shops decks with little to no aggro at all. You mentioned the Cavern being important, does Bomberman have a good control match? It feels like it should. What about the Shops match?

It seems like the match up against Dredge would be ok but I am not expecting a lot of that to show up.

[TheProfessor]

I know that I may be resurrecting this thread, but is UW Bomberman still a viable deck?  I have seen a couple of Esper lists pop up here and there, but what happened to the awesome results that the UW lists were putting up?  Are there changes that need to be made in order for the UW version to shine again? Any thoughts?

[Samoht]

I know that I may be resurrecting this thread, but is UW Bomberman still a viable deck?  I have seen a couple of Esper lists pop up here and there, but what happened to the awesome results that the UW lists were putting up?  Are there changes that need to be made in order for the UW version to shine again? Any thoughts?

Formats changed. More creatures means you cant rely on the 2/2's to carry you home like in olden days. The BUG deck seems like a nightmare match for it.

[TheProfessor]

What is your opinion of the Blue Angels deck?

[Commandant]

I know that I may be resurrecting this thread, but is UW Bomberman still a viable deck?  I have seen a couple of Esper lists pop up here and there, but what happened to the awesome results that the UW lists were putting up?  Are there changes that need to be made in order for the UW version to shine again? Any thoughts?

You must be hiding under a rock.

http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1772&d=6

Edit: Fix'd

[TheProfessor]

What is your opinion of the Blue Angels deck?

You must be hiding under a rock.

http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1772&d=6

What is your point?