Bomberman Redux

[A.-1.]

@kalisia: Yes, I realize you were talking about your own limited experience. That's why I asked what is your sample size. If you've never lost to MUD when you resolved Energy Flux five out of five times, it doesn't mean much. But if you've done it, let's say, 50 times, your argument for Energy Flux would carry much more weight.


Josh, you never said that, but I think it's pretty obvious where you hold the opinions of others. I'm sorry you've misconstrued my constructive criticism as 'not picking my way into the argument.' I'll "just drop it."

I hope you don't feel like I'm personally attacking you. I'm not. In fact, I am also of the opinion that UW is better overall. I just feel like you make a lot of absolute statements without any real reasoning behind them.

I apologize for trying to advance Bomberman toward an optimal list, whatever color(s) that may be.

[TheWhiteDragon]

...and let's have a haiatus from this slapfight to talk about the deck some more.

I know mystical has been cut from many decks of late due to card disadvatage, but wonder if tinker doesn't make it worth a look again.  If mystical comes in, or even merchant scroll, I think it may be worth looking into a main steel sabotage.  Beyond a cheap BSC answer, it's the best antimud counter available and can remove a resolved null rod or counter one on the stack.  You could really just ignore null rod, playing the lotus and spellbomb, then bounce rod when you get the auriok in play.  Many decks that run rod either run duresses to resolve it, but can't stop you from removing it, or they are counter light and can fight it into play, but not your removal with counter backup.  In those types of decks, once the rod is in play, they usually let trinket mage and any artifacts resolve to save their disruption for more immediate threats.  I think even 1 sabotage main with any tutor effect is fine.  It's also a boon g1 vs the worst shop matchup at any rate.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

@kalisia: Yes, I realize you were talking about your own limited experience. That's why I asked what is your sample size. If you've never lost to MUD when you resolved Energy Flux five out of five times, it doesn't mean much. But if you've done it, let's say, 50 times, your argument for Energy Flux would carry much more weight.


Josh, you never said that, but I think it's pretty obvious where you hold the opinions of others. I'm sorry you've misconstrued my constructive criticism as 'not picking my way into the argument.' I'll "just drop it."

I hope you don't feel like I'm personally attacking you. I'm not. In fact, I am also of the opinion that UW is better overall. I just feel like you make a lot of absolute statements without any real reasoning behind them.

I apologize for trying to advance Bomberman toward an optimal list, whatever color(s) that may be.

There's a big difference between constructive criticism and being a smart ass. Yeah it's best we move back onto the topic a hand...

[vaughnbros]

Some thoughts about this discussion after doing a little bit of testing with these lists...

Tinker -> BSC doesn't really seem worth it to me.  As stated earlier in this thread tinker isn't really all that powerful anymore.  There are far too many decks with answers to it, even Martello has effectively 8 answers to it.  The lack of tutors for tinker in the UW version make drawing BSC, or seeing it on top, just as likely as finding tinker.   The UWB version doesn't want to be flipping a BSC to bob.

Maybe someone can explain this to me, but I don't really understand why snapcaster mage would be in this at all.  It's a 3+ drop that gets hit by graveyard hate and is horrid against the decks worst match up, workshops.  Also it can usually only recur a counter spell.  I'm sorry, but I don't think a higher risk higher reward Mystic Snake is worth inclusion.  More Jaces, Cliques, or pretty much anything else on the top end of the blue curve seems like a superior option.

Tezzeret seems like a great idea.  However, not the seeker.  Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas seems like a legitimate reason to run black in this.  His +1 can generate some serious card advantage in this list with a top out, and even without it should almost always grab something with the high artifact count.  His -1 can make the deck race against workshops more consistently.  A 5/5 with haste every turn can be brutally powerful.  His ultimate is also only a -4 and can provide a great finisher against blue decks after your creatures have been beating on them.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Don't forget Lance you can cast BSC pretty easily with salvager and lotus. I do know what your saying though. I am glad to see you testing it and developing your ideas on these lists. I do like your idea of Tezz Bolas!

[Samoht]

1) BSC is terrible in this deck, either with or without B. You can do better things. You can do more consistent things. Additionally, the meta is defined in many ways by being able to deal with BSC. I don't suggest running it at all, and certainly don't like it in any Bomberman/Control deck. I've lost more games than I've won after resolving Tinker->BSC in the past 6 months.

2) TV+K is more than fine. In fact, while running 1-2 Top and Sol Ring, you get more value out of your Key than most realize. Most players do not understand the value of Time Vault externally of the combo, so they often play it sub-optimally and cost themselves games/matches. The card can be used offensively in control decks. I can't tell you how many times I've had the game locked with countermagic and untapped my TV, only to land a Jace and take an extra turn for supreme value. Krosan Grip would be the only reason this play would be risky, and it is non-existant in the meta-game.

3) I think 2UB Tezz is just worse than 2UU Jace. I don't think 4 2UU Jace is right, so I can't advocate 2UB Tezz. I actually push for 3UU Tezz, in conjunction with TV+K, as an alternate win condition. I like the first 3UU Tezz over the 4th 2UU Jace.

4) RE Josh + Rob: Josh, your reactions and responses to what has been said is precisely why I don't engage you in discourse on decks on TMD despite your resume. You speak in absolutes with disdain for others, and aren't responding to what people are saying other than to reaffirm what you already said. Rob has been trying nicely to point it out to you, but you keep disparaging him. I don't understand it, as in person you are much more approachable. Why do you insist on it here?

5) I personally think that the UWb list is stronger in a vacuum. It has much more aggressive plans, and has several ways of getting ahead of its opponent, where as the UW version really only has Jace. I wish that the UW list found a way to work in Wasteland and Strip Mine to attack the mana base of the Shop decks. That is where the most movement can be made I would say to shore up that MU. Much like the UR Standstill decks that Josh pioneered, getting card advantage against Shops coupled with attacking their mana base is the most effective way to defeat them.

6) Energy Flux is an overrated card since the printing of LSG. Effectively, they can just take 2 to make you take 5. Or, they can use Factories to push the tempo. The new list Raf came up with is so heavy on man lands that cards like Kataki and Flux are just horrible. I prefer Kataki, as it dodges Thorn and is cheaper. Attacking their mana by increasing costs is all well and good, but unless you can keep them off Tomb/Man lands, it won't do it alone. You have to spend a lot of resources to get through their defenses in order to land it, not ending the game is simply not enough. Also, we run enough artifacts that Flux can easily be a liability for us in some regards as well. Serenity is obviously the same situation, just more extreme in its power level.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

4) RE Josh + Rob: Josh, your reactions and responses to what has been said is precisely why I don't engage you in discourse on decks on TMD despite your resume. You speak in absolutes with disdain for others, and aren't responding to what people are saying other than to reaffirm what you already said. Rob has been trying nicely to point it out to you, but you keep disparaging him. I don't understand it, as in person you are much more approachable. Why do you insist on it here?

It probably blew this whole thread out of hand when I said Bob in this deck is like using training wheels. I already apologized for this thread getting out of hand and offending people? Is this not enough? Then to add to it Rob decide to poke at me when I say when I am done with this thread. I was done with it because I was tired of using my smart phone. I then reply when I am on a computer, and Rob says how I think UBw is inferior which...yes I do? Is this a crime? To follow this up I make another comment about Bob not being all that great bc creature romval. And in response I get a smart ass response. So I respond to his post by rewording what I had previously said bc he was confused. A few posts later I apologize to everyone for offending everyone. Then another smart ass comment in "Yup, you got me, Josh. I don't know anything about anything." I then try to move on again and again he says this "I'm sorry you've misconstrued my constructive criticism as 'not picking my way into the argument." I wasnt doing that at all I had gotten fed up with him being a smart ass.

I am very easy to get along with and like I said I apologized for making the disparaging comments about Bob and the UBw versions and didnt mean to offend anyone...so what more should I do? Bite my tongue when someone is constantly having smart ass come backs? I don't think so. I can't do more then apologize...so it is what it is and lets get back on topic here.

[vaughnbros]

2) TV+K is more than fine. In fact, while running 1-2 Top and Sol Ring, you get more value out of your Key than most realize. Most players do not understand the value of Time Vault externally of the combo, so they often play it sub-optimally and cost themselves games/matches. The card can be used offensively in control decks. I can't tell you how many times I've had the game locked with countermagic and untapped my TV, only to land a Jace and take an extra turn for supreme value. Krosan Grip would be the only reason this play would be risky, and it is non-existant in the meta-game.

3) I think 2UB Tezz is just worse than 2UU Jace. I don't think 4 2UU Jace is right, so I can't advocate 2UB Tezz. I actually push for 3UU Tezz, in conjunction with TV+K, as an alternate win condition. I like the first 3UU Tezz over the 4th 2UU Jace.

Yeh with vault/key I agree the 3UU Tezz becomes a decent option.  It does open you up to being blown out even more so by stoney silence and null rod though.

I think you are seriously underrating 2UB Tezz though.  I don't really agree with comparing Jace and Tezz since you have ample space in a deck to run both.  Although I will enumerate the advantages that Tezz has over a 3rd or 4th Jace.

-Playing a Jace into an opposing Jace is a 1 for 1 trade.  Playing a Tezz into an opposing Jace is card advantage as you will still have your Tezz and your 5/5 out.
-Jace digs 1 card deeper with an active top.  Tezz lets you see a whole new 3 cards.  (If your digging for salvagers there is a chance you have to bottom him though)
-Tezz's -1 generally protects him much better than Jace's -1.
-I can play both Jace and Tezz out at the same time.
-Tezz is a much faster clock.

This deck meets the required number of artifacts to run him.  If your also in black I think hes a great option.

5) I personally think that the UWb list is stronger in a vacuum. It has much more aggressive plans, and has several ways of getting ahead of its opponent, where as the UW version really only has Jace. I wish that the UW list found a way to work in Wasteland and Strip Mine to attack the mana base of the Shop decks. That is where the most movement can be made I would say to shore up that MU. Much like the UR Standstill decks that Josh pioneered, getting card advantage against Shops coupled with attacking their mana base is the most effective way to defeat them.

A few months ago I played around with Justin's list , trying to squeeze in wastelands.  Starting from Justin's list:

-2 Some combination of Counterspells/Mindcensor/Clique
-3 Off-color moxen
+3 Wasteland
+1 Strip Mine
+1 Crucible of Worlds

It did improve the workshops match up, but at the cost of some tempo loss against blue decks.  From what I remember it played a lot like landstill, minus the standstills, but with a combo finish.

[Phele]

If People are advocating Serenity as the way to go, just make suer, that you have one in your hand pretty often and that you are not hindered too much by Spheres, when you want to play it.

Beside as many of Swords to Plowshares between maindeck and board as possible I would then recommend to try out a sideboard constellation like this:

4 Serenity
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Engineered Explosives.

The extra Explosives help you to fight Chalices and Spheres and so get your Swords online and clear the path for Serenity. And the Ancient Tomb gives you the extra, Spheres-unaffected manaboost to play through Spheres (beside speeding up your Trinkets, Aurioks, Jaces ...).

For Wasteland-effects: I don't see them as maindeck material. You play so many high costed spells, it would slow you down a lot. But maybe Wastelands could be an option for the sideboard as extra mana for the Shops-matchup or disrupting mana instead of off-color moxen in the control and Dredge matchup. This would give you the possibility to adjust you mana curve a bit, when you bring them in. In that case you would need very cost-effective solutions against Shops as well: Swords, Steel, Kataki, Hurkyls, Explosives, stuff like that.  But I am not sure, if this would work.

For Tez 1.0: When you play Vault-Key and Tez, you will weaken your main deck plan (play first control, then aggro and then eventually combo as well), as the deck gets less consistant. Why not play pure Tez instead then? Additionally: Especially in the UW versions your plays in the first two turns are pretty unimpressive. Maybe you get to counter something or play a Spellbomb, but don't set up something serious. You already play lots of high costed spells. Integrating even more five-mana-planeswalkers wouldn't make this any better.

[sheva]

Hi,
i want to play bomberman in a tournament this week-end.
Metagame is 30% oath, 30% stax, 30% control (with confidant) and 10% bant and ichorid.
I have tested UW and UWb but i prefere the first versione, a true control deck that i prefer to play.
If Stax is a problem, could be a good idea try UWg for trygon predator maindeck?
With G maindeck if possible, for example, run with tarmogoyf in side and nature's claim.
What do you think?

Luca

[TheWhiteDragon]

Hi,
i want to play bomberman in a tournament this week-end.
Metagame is 30% oath, 30% stax, 30% control (with confidant) and 10% bant and ichorid.
I have tested UW and UWb but i prefere the first versione, a true control deck that i prefer to play.
If Stax is a problem, could be a good idea try UWg for trygon predator maindeck?
With G maindeck if possible, for example, run with tarmogoyf in side and nature's claim.
What do you think?

Luca

I think that meta is the perfect opportunity to try 4x serenity, or 4x disnchant.  Actually, in this case probably disenchants and hurkylls.  You won't really be able to pass the turn on oath with serenity.  You have too many early critters in addition to their orchards. Plows seem golden vs 90% of that meta. EE should be good vs most of those decks too.  Cages are an obvious winner vs so much oath and dredge.

[rologa]

4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage
2 Auriok Salvager
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Spell Snare
3 Mental Misstep
2 Swords to Plowshares

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
3 Jace, the Minsculptor

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

Just as food for thought, this is how I could see a streamlined UBW version which is close to the UW list. As the UW version it focuses just on the Bomberman combo, plays a simliar counter shell and avoids any topdeck tutors.  Cavern is good in this deck, as it plays more creatures and all are humans. The manabase is worse, but maybe an early Confidant can compensate that. The Oath matchup is worse, the Control matchup is imo better. It is strange to play a Bob deck without Will, Tinker and Library, but the deck plays out quite consistanty. Other cards to think about are the fourth Trinket, Vampiric Tutor, Ponder, Cage, possible cards to cut are the two Snapcasters and the Thirst.

I am still undecided, which version I like more, but I think it is worth to compare them and make the best out of two worlds.

I prefer to play less counters and play topdeck tutors.  This option allows you to play more aggressively in the first turns and makes Snapcaster better with the possibility to replay ancestral or time walk more often. Without them Snapcaster has no sense because the only targets you will have usually will be counters.
I suppose is a question of play style, but when I add black to Bomberman is to play it aggressively the first turns and play control game after if the match is still not resolved. For me is basic to put a Confidant quickly into play or try to resolve ancestral once or twice quickly. These are my lines of play for two first turns, trying to take card advantage. After that if I can resolve combo I will go for it and if not I will try to play traditional control as with UW Bomberman.
I think this add more options to the deck to adapt to any situation, playing the role required in each match instead of playing always the control role as with UW version.

So I will cut Thirst for Knowledge and some Mental Misstep to add one more Snapcaster and topdeck tutors.

[kalisia]

Beside as many of Swords to Plowshares between maindeck and board as possible I would then recommend to try out a sideboard constellation like this:

4 Serenity
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Engineered Explosives.

The extra Explosives help you to fight Chalices and Spheres and so get your Swords online and clear the path for Serenity. And the Ancient Tomb gives you the extra, Spheres-unaffected manaboost to play through Spheres (beside speeding up your Trinkets, Aurioks, Jaces ...).

Nice and clever proposal, Phele !
I like very much this idea of Serenity complete set + Ancient Tomb!

I am really disapointed of never having thought to add Ancient Tombs against MUD in a sideboard!
Really interesting idea that will need test, and not only in a Bomberman deck, but in many decks.

[Phele]

But beware of Tangle Wires 

[Methuselahn]

But beware of Tangle Wires 

?
Why are Tangle Wires scary?

[TheWhiteDragon]

But beware of Tangle Wires 

?
Why are Tangle Wires scary?

Because serenity is not an instant, so one tangle wire means you may never reach 2 mainphase mana before spheres bury you.  Instants let you kill the tangle eot.  Chewer falls into the same problem though, besides being a 1-for-1.  Mainphase mana is typically non-existent in the mud match.  Mana in general, for that matter.

[d0rsal]

why doesnt anyone run lab maniac as a 1 of in this deck?  the way the deck is set up, you can gain overwhelming advantage when you combo off but, you cant just win.  w/ the maniac you could just draw your deck & win immediately w/o having to pass turn.  + w/ cavern on human, he couldnt be countered (as if he could be countered w/ your whole library in your hand but you get the idea)

[Phele]

Because usually you don't need something that let you win on the spot, when you can clear the whole board of the opponent with Explosives, fill your hand fulll of counters, put plenty of yor critters on the board and then Time Walk. If you already played Time Walk then just counter everything they would play next turn and whin then. A Supreme Verdict would ruin your day then, but nobody plays that in Vintage ...

A "direct" win condition would just help, when you already played Time Walk and you are in the last of the extra turns. For that extreme case it might be usefull. But then I would definately not play Maniac as he is completely dead in all other cases. Use Cunning Wish with something in the board then or just Pyrite Spellbomb. But that is not necessary.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

If I were to play the Uw version, I would consider splashing red for pyrite spellbomb and sideboard cards.

[Wagner]

If I were to play the Uw version, I would consider splashing red for pyrite spellbomb and sideboard cards.

You'd still be bette with Lightning Bolt maindeck than Pyrite, there is far better removal and most of the time you don't need it to combo.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

If I were to play the Uw version, I would consider splashing red for pyrite spellbomb and sideboard cards.

You'd still be bette with Lightning Bolt maindeck than Pyrite, there is far better removal and most of the time you don't need it to combo.

lightnung bolt isn't tutorable with trinket mage. Furthermore, with tinker falling to the wayside, aether spellbomb doesn't do much either.

[Wagner]

If I were to play the Uw version, I would consider splashing red for pyrite spellbomb and sideboard cards.

You'd still be bette with Lightning Bolt maindeck than Pyrite, there is far better removal and most of the time you don't need it to combo.

lightnung bolt isn't tutorable with trinket mage. Furthermore, with tinker falling to the wayside, aether spellbomb doesn't do much either.

Spellbomb can still bounce your guys to save them, recur Snapcaster, Trinket and Clique and is on color. All depends what you'd add in the sideboard, what did you have in mind?

[Cruel Ultimatum]

Rebs and chewers

[The Atog Lord]

The discussion of including a win-now card is one that comes whenever Bomberman is discussed, and it is generally a worthwhile discussion to have. Including a Pyrite Spellbomb does allow winning now, and if a single Volcanic Island is included, it even provides a modicum of added utility. Brainfreeze is blue, and can catch some opponents off guard; for example, it can steal games against Dredge decks out of nowhere. Tendrils of Agony can also provide free wins, though of course that is only useful in Black variants of the deck. Elixir of Immortality lets you Timewalk and then recur it as many times as you like. Venser, Shaper Savant doesn't actually result in an instant win per se, but he does allow you to bounce every single one of your opponent's permanents to hand, and then bounce whatever spell he plays next turn.

On the other hand, while I can't claim to have tested Bomberman extensively, I can say that I have never lost a single game with the deck on account of an inability to win all at once. Instead, the deck can put itself in a position from which it is almost impossible to lose, while not incorporating a card just for winning the game.

Now, perhaps you wonder why Aether Spellbomb is worthwhile. It shaves a card off the combo, making the combo into just Salvagers and Trinket Mage. The Trinket Mage finds the Spellbomb at first, and grabs the Black Lotus when he is bounced by the Spellbomb. Especially since Cavern of Souls lets you force through both creatures, winning off this two-card combo is especially valuable in the deck today.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

Snapcaster wins ok n the spot if you didn't use time walk. Also, if you have vault key you win on the spot. but honestly I cant really think of a situation, other then extra turns where you really need to win on the spot. Outside of that, you cant really lose, unless your oppenent has sudden shock. Also somethink to keep in mind, but is impractical to play out, is that with aether spellbomb there is no chancd of getting decked, because you can use top to get the cards you need and have aether spellbomb bounce trinket for shuffles so you arent drawing the cardd you dont need.

But, if you have black in your deck, I prefer nihil spelbomb, as I feel the utility is much better. Especially since people aren't playing tinker as much.

[d0rsal]

i was mainly just thinking out loud when i mentioned the lab maniac, brain freeze, as rich alrdy mentioned, was the other card that came to mind as a win now option.  i get that the deck generates such a huge advantage that its unlikely you're going to lose, but not losing doesnt necessarily mean winning.  & being able to win immediately isnt an altogether terrible idea.  if you were to say, take josh's u/w list & swap 1 card for a main deck brain freeze, i cant see how you'd be doing yourself an injustice trying it out

[Cruel Ultimatum]

i was mainly just thinking out loud when i mentioned the lab maniac, brain freeze, as rich alrdy mentioned, was the other card that came to mind as a win now option.  i get that the deck generates such a huge advantage that its unlikely you're going to lose, but not losing doesnt necessarily mean winning.  & being able to win immediately isnt an altogether terrible idea.  if you were to say, take josh's u/w list & swap 1 card for a main deck brain freeze, i cant see how you'd be doing yourself an injustice trying it out

Try it out. but here are 3 reasons you dont want it.

1) I cant think of a deck that can create a boardstate that can beat you after you have your combo
2) Most games you are just a control deck and don't combo off.
3) space is tight. Playing a card that is dead 99.9% of the time doesnt seem worth it to me.

That being said, venser is kinda cool, is a human and has some uses outside of comboing. You can also bounce your jace to make sure you fateseal a land to the top and if you also have clique, you can use the jaceseal and the clique to turn their whole hand into lands. The negative side of him is that he still doesbt win you the game on turn 4 or 5 of extra turns.

[kalisia]

In every deck, it's always a good thing to be able to win on the spot.

When I play Bomberman, I always play Tendrils of Agony. It's the best tool if you want to win on the spot. It's better than Pyrite Spellbomb or Maniac because it works with the Auriok combo, and can also work without the combo. I you want to win on the spot using a blue instant, Brain Freeze is not very good, because of cards like Emrakul. It's better to use Stroke of Genius (via Cunning Wish for example). Stroke IS a real "win on the spot" because if you draw your deck with spellbomb, you have 10 counters in hand and your spell can't be countered.

But for me, the best card that wins on the spot, it's clearly Tendrils.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

In every deck, it's always a good thing to be able to win on the spot.

Why is it a good thing?

[kalisia]

Less time you give to your opponent to find answers/solutions, better it is. Obviously, to win immediately resolves this problem efficiently. And winning is also the best way to resolve the problem of the opponent's board.
It resolves as well the problem of the additional turns in tournaments.