Bomberman Redux

[Phele]

with so many top / Jace effects, you could even consider runnig crap such as terminate, which will become a wrath for  , only slightly better to adress the creature issue.

I guess you mean Terminus 

But I doubt, it would work in this deck, as it lacks the full set of Brainstorms and Tops, the Legacy UW Miracle decks play.

Justin, you mentioned that Workshops is still a tough matchup but at least manageable with your version (which has the stable manabase as advantage over the UBW one). Do you have more precise experiences on the matchup after boarding? Did you play Shops very often during your winning streak and how did it go? That would be very nice. On paper it seems so rocky to play with stuff like Steel Sabotage and Disenchant or Kataki without any Wastelands against it, but I have no valid data on the pure UW version. In UBW its definately not enough to beat Shops at a constant rate.

On a sidenote: The new, great article of Brian Demars illustrates quite well, how tough it is, to beat Shops even with such an efficient Removal like Ingot Chewer.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25260_Grixis-On-The-Draw-vs-Workshops.html

[Pokey]

I actually have played Terminus already (top 4 of vintage worlds prelim).  I actually never tested it and just decided to throw 1 in the sideboard "for fun".  I never cast it, so who knows if it would be good or not?  Playing a bunch of them seems amusing though.

I would say that I have generally played against shops 1 - 2 times per tournament (including top 8 matches).  I definitely lose more matches than I win, but every deck has bad matchups, right?

My general theory when playing against shops postboard is to have as many 1cc answers as possible (would probably play 4x steel sabotage if it wasn't so terrible on the draw).  StP is like the best card ever, because all of their real threats are creatures, since no one plays Smokestack anymore.  I couldn't imagine playing less than 4.  Steel Sabotage is awesome on the play because it goes right along with your gameplan of "counter everything", and can allow you to set up a turn 2 drain.  Disenchant makes the cut because I want instant speed answers, and although "it sucks", it's the best "destroy anything" effect available to U/W.

You basically just need to stall until you can resolve a bomb (Jace or Devout Witness).  It's extremely hard for them to beat either of those cards unless they are already way ahead.  Also, you can randomly damage race them with a turn 1 or 2 V Clique, although this is not a common line of play.

I accept that they will nut draw you on the play sometimes.  I'm not going to mulligan to Force of Will on the draw because of this.  I'll keep any decent hand and see what happens.  Also, I have no qualms about taking risky gambles if the reward is high, such as keeping awesome hands that auto-scoop to Chalice @0.  Have to take every chance I can get to have an edge.

[Methuselahn]

My general theory when playing against shops postboard is to have as many 1cc answers as possible

My brain had an aneurysm when I read this.

Typically, I'm try to drop Chalice for 1 as much as possible versus this deck, with Forgemaster.dec., because it seems to cover a lot of your cards.  Also, I'm running very few 1cc spells myself.  It weirds me out because you've had a lot of success with the deck.

 

[Anusien]

I'll read the thread and comment more later, but Time Vault seems kind of weak here. It's nice to randomly assemble versus Shops because it's cheap, but against the rest of the field, it seems to be good against the things you're good against and weak against the things you're weak against.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Won Blue Bell event today with this...

UW Bombstep
2 Auriok Salvagers
4 Trinket Mage
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Tinker
1 BSC
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thirst for knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
1 Flusterstorm

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Plains
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra

SIDEBOARD
4 Rest in Piece
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Devout Witness
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mindbreak Trap

Only 8 players showed up to play sadly, the format of the event was 3 rounds and cut to a finals match...$225 and Invite to NEV champs event and $125 and some points for second...

Round 1 - Lance on Dredge 2-1 WIN
Round 2 - Butker on Doomsday Gush 2-1 WIN
Round 3 - Seas on URg Landstill 2-0 WIN
Finals - Seas on Landstill 2-1 WIN

I was already invited to the event so Seas slid me some of his credit for me to pass him the invite down. I walked away with $275 credit, not a bad day...

Conclusions: Tinker BSC were insane, RIP is not a combo killer in this decks SB (EE kill RIP into Combo Win...yeah that happened), Cavern of Souls is insane in this deck!

[Cruel Ultimatum]

Top4ed the NEV today with this

4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage
2 Auriok Salvagers
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
2 Flusterstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Mental Misstep
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Spell Snare
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Vault
1 Time Walk
1 Voltaic Key

4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Tundra
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Underground Sea
1 Plains
1 Black Lotus
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
2 Polluted Delta
1 Sol Ring
 
SB:

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Serenity
1 Moat
2 Sword's to Plowesheres
2 Energy Flux
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rest in Peace
1 Disenchant

[Phele]

Won Blue Bell event today with this...

UW Bombstep
2 Auriok Salvagers
4 Trinket Mage
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Tinker
1 BSC
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thirst for knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
1 Flusterstorm

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Plains
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra

SIDEBOARD
4 Rest in Piece
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Devout Witness
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mindbreak Trap

Congratulations.

What I ask myself is, what makes these two color builds of Bomberman so strong?

I would say, it is not the Bomberman combo or white as the secondary color. You play just two white cards maindeck, the Salvagers. Are these so strong for their abbility to get back little artifacts or for their 2/4 body? Is the Salvager combo with Lotus and Spellbomb/Top+Explosives so strong? To me, it seems that these are not mandatory options. And even in the sideboard you run a bunch of white cards, that could be exchanged by stronger options in other colors: Disenchant (Natures Claim/Ingot Chewer) or Devout Witness (Trygon Predator/Viashino Heretic/Goblin Welder). Swords is great, but even for that, there exist simliar options in other colors (Bolt/Dismember) and you don't even run the full set.  Rest in Peace seem to be the only card, that has a pretty unique power level for a white card, but could at least be exchanged with other hate cards (More Crypts, Needles, Cages or Leylines) that still offer you a good shot against Dredge.

I don't want to say, that there is something wrong with playing white and the continuous success of the deck underlines that. But I think, that it is not white, what makes this deck so strong. It is probably the base of 4 Jace, 4 Trinkets + package and 4 Drains with extra counters that transfer you in the position to play Drain. So can't we take this 12 cards as a starting point to create other two color builds paired with stronger cards and options than Salvagers and Disenchant?

- Some sort of UR Painter or Welder builds would come to my mind.
- Or what about UB or UR Tezzeret builds?
- Or if you want to stick with the power of Caverns why not create some sort of UB Wizard build around these 12 cards.
- Or, if you want to stick with UW, isn't Stoneforge Mystic much stronger than Salvagers? At least in Legacy, lots of people play Stoneforge but almost noone plays Salvagers. Is there something specific, what makes the Salvagers combo so much stronger in Vintage?

Sorry, if this all lead to far away. But at least the question about the core strength seem to be interesting to discuss.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

There are a few things that stuck out to me when playing this deck. Salvagers 2/4 body was insane, it can't be burned, blocks a lot of things without dying, and is a threat. Next thing is the entire core of the combo with cavern is uncounterable...sure you can say welder and painter together are similar, but not really...painter and welder are both fragile to burn, painter is an artifact more prone to hate, welder can only activate once per turn, where salvagers can do multiple...I am sure I could think of more reasons but those are the main ones. Sure you can build a wizards deck or something fun but that won't have an auto win con like salvagers brings to the table and a discussion like that is better served in a diff thread. I hope this helped you understand a little bit. This deck it really really strong...

[TheWhiteDragon]

There are a few things that stuck out to me when playing this deck. Salvagers 2/4 body was insane, it can't be burned, blocks a lot of things without dying, and is a threat. Next thing is the entire core of the combo with cavern is uncounterable...sure you can say welder and painter together are similar, but not really...painter and welder are both fragile to burn, painter is an artifact more prone to hate, welder can only activate once per turn, where salvagers can do multiple...I am sure I could think of more reasons but those are the main ones. Sure you can build a wizards deck or something fun but that won't have an auto win con like salvagers brings to the table and a discussion like that is better served in a diff thread. I hope this helped you understand a little bit. This deck it really really strong...

Like I said when I first saw the list....it's unstoppable.  You can't counter its critters with counters and it can counter/remove everything you play.  Then it has 4 of the best game manager (Jace) ever printed, a combo that can beat face and block on its own, and 4x uncounterable tutor for a fantastic toolbox.  The reason this has won multiple times in the hands of multiple pilots and has T8d 17 times is because it CAN'T BE STOPPED.  Congrats to it's designer for making the perfect deck with no weakness or foil.  I've tried beating it with every archetype I can think of, and I can't beat it 10 times out of 100 with any deck.  It literally has the answer for everything, the speed to match combo, the control to trump control, the versatility to beat shops, and the power to squash fish.  I don't know how many different ways I can spell UNSTOPPABLE.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I would completely agree...this deck is very very very hard to stop!

[Phele]

So to sum it up, the 2/4 Body and Cavern pushes this over the top over other thinkable set ups, even though the board is pretty weak and the combo itself is pretty turns- and mana-intensiv to set up. Okay,  I played Bomberman a lot when Thirst was still legal as a four of so I have to try out the actual version a bit more. Thanks for the advice.

@White Dragon: It is nice that you are so enthusiastic, but you will never win 90 out of 100 matches against MUD. Never, ever! And this deck is pretty weak against Null Rod, even though it can compensate that by playing enough creatures. I would also say, that any form of fast Long is quite strong against it.

[TheWhiteDragon]

So to sum it up, the 2/4 Body and Cavern pushes this over the top over other thinkable set ups, even though the board is pretty weak and the combo itself is pretty turns- and mana-intensiv to set up. Okay,  I played Bomberman a lot when Thirst was still legal as a four of so I have to try out the actual version a bit more. Thanks for the advice.

@White Dragon: It is nice that you are so enthusiastic, but you will never win 90 out of 100 matches against MUD. Never, ever! And this deck is pretty weak against Null Rod, even though it can compensate that by playing enough creatures. I would also say, that any form of fast Long is quite strong against it.

Vs Mud: Fow, sabotage, drain, disenchant, witness, auriok-> combo-> win

Vs Long: Pierce, Misstep, drain, FoW, Jace-> 10 more counters, combo->win

Vs Null Rod: Play any type of game, sabotage->combo-> win

Enough said. Answers for EVERYTHING, CANNOT be stopped outside of the pilot getting mana screwed and mulling to four 2/3 games.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

These lists can also play 3 stoneforge and 1 batterskull sb as an option to fight fishy decks and shops...

Additionally my list ran tinker and BSC...so I had additional outs vs shop, fish, landstill, or just the oops I have 3 counters and tinker = GG

[TheWhiteDragon]

These lists can also play 3 stoneforge and 1 batterskull sb as an option to fight fishy decks and shops...

Additionally my list ran tinker and BSC...so I had additional outs vs shop, fish, landstill, or just the oops I have 3 counters and tinker = GG

Yes the SB is completely wide open.  The maindeck alone can probably beat everything 3 times out of 4.  Add in sb cards, and you're easily looking at 9/10 vs every match.  I like adding in BSC/tinker since it plays a ridiculous number of counters to protect and 4x jace to put back the robot.  Not like it even NEEDS that to be unstoppable, but sure...might as well add an extra bazooka to the Abrams tank.

I'd challenge anyone to run a gauntlet against this deck and report their findings.  You'll find that, with a sample of 25+ games, you will not be able to win more than 1 out of 5 games with any matchup.  It crushes dredge, shops, fish, storm, control, and even random stuff.  I'd say it again, but I really don't need to.  Aww, what the heck...UNSTOPPABLE!!!!

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Plus with salvager in play you don't want to put BSC back in the deck...you want to tutor lotus and cast him lol. I beat landstill this weekend a game like that. Cast BSC, he bounced it with jace, attack jace kill it with other dudes, cast BSC again GG lol. This deck IS THE BEST BLUE DECK RIGHT NOW...

[playkenny]

I came top 4 with this list over the weekend:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44785.0

    4) Kenneth Cheong – U/W Bomberman
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy

2 Auriok Salvagers
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Trinket Mage

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Time Walk

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Mana Leak
3 Mental Misstep
2 Fact or Fiction
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Æther Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei’s Divining Top

Sideboard
2 Grafdiggers Cage
3 Swords to Ploughshares
1 Serenity
1 Disenchant
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Batterskull


I use to play Bomberman during the Flash era to great success and many wins so I was happy to re-sleave my salvagers.

Notable card choices:
2 FoF - I cut one Jace for a FoF purely due to UU mana costs. Cavern of Souls, though amazing as it is vs Blue decks is a real hamstring on the mana. I added a second as I felt this deck needed velocity and draw power pre/post combo.
3 Dain over 4 - again, same issue as above. Many times I need a second or third blue source, top deck Cavern and I want to cry.
1 Brainstorm - Many bomberman players don't play this because you don't want specific cards. Sure, in the main deck, but post board, you are looking for that disenchant or that grafdiggers cage.
1 maindeck P.Needle - I side this card in all the time and I am always a fan - put this to personal preference
3 Mana Leak - This slot has jumped from Snares to Pierce to Flusters and a combination and I couldn't get the right mix. I went with Leak for a few reasons. 1) The UU mana issue comes to mind again (note I play 4 tundras to extra blue and an extra white after SB) and 2) Land+mox opener allows you to counter Bobs, Oath and Stax pieces giving you less dead cards in the main.
0 Tinker/BSC - I had this in the MD/SB along with a SB Mystical for a while to sidestep any graveyard hate/massacare/null rods people bring in. My experience is that it usually less versitile than the stoneforge package.

My games were:
R1 Forgemaster 0-2
R2 Dredge 2-0
R3 Bant Fish 2-0
R4 Burning Tendrils 1-1-1. We played it out and I lost to a top decked Burning Wish.

I have tested this configuration and I agree with most posters here that:
- It indeed has great game vs blue decks
- Crushes Dredge
- Not too shabby vs rituals though my matchup vs tendrils is a bit weaker without Clique and having leaks over flusterstorm
- Favoured vs non god hand oath

However, those out there who are saying that they smash shops must be running good. I will conceed that post board, Bomberman with up to 3 disencant effects, 3+ swords and either sabotage/stoneforger packages give us the edge against traditional MUD/Matello, BUT there is no way we are good against Forgemaster. I played around 10 games after my first round match, ON THE PLAY and won once; and that was due to mana crypt flips! I kept an opener with turn 1 SFM backed with a STP, a seal of cleansing, force and a leak and still lost that one. My issue is that they play too many threats and too many varied threats - hellkite, titan, karn, battlesphere, wurm and this is AFTER the must stop Golem/Forgemaster/Metalworker. It's not like we can just sit around and sack a perm to smokestax anymore against these guys.

If people on this thread can give me a detailed analysis/gameplay on how to win this matchup, I would really appreciate it.

[shrewarmies]

You lost that game to a top deck mox pearl. I had a wish in the GY and already had will in hand. I would have also called Wengs list Metalworkers over forgemasters.

What I wanted to pull attention to is the use of Grafdiggers Cage as the "tutorable dredge hate". Is the flexibility of also stopping oath so strong that it can take a slot over Tormod's Crypt. I noticed in our games yesterday that if Ken was able to search up a crypt I was just dead. Short of God hand oath, is your counter package not dense enough to keep oath off the table esp with disenchant post board? Tormod's Crypt is free, cannot be misstepped and can really shut down the dredge engine long enough for you to find the win pre board, plus you can just nuke a long players GY and is better in the mirror.

[playkenny]

Cage not just for dredge and oath, it also hoses snapcasters and tinker/BSC. I like that kind of flexability in one card.

If I were to aim a little more to storm combo and less on bobs for example, I would switch the leaks to pierces, cut maybe 2 mindscensors for 2 Cliques and have a few flusters between main and sideboard, probabily cutting FoF and Needle in the main.

[shrewarmies]

Clique is the MVP vs my Burnt Tendrils list. Just finished a ten game session ( Pre-Board 5 on the play/5 on the draw) and the end result was 6-4 in favour of UW Bomberman. My opponent was playing Josh's list posted earlier so he was running tinker BSC in the main.

A few notes:

Clique is the MVP vs my Burnt Tendrils list. I don't think I won a game after clique had resolved. The ability to just neuter a storm chain was just fantastic by waiting till the penultimate was was cast and then respond with Clique. It needs good timing but it certainly was effective.

Having the three misstep also really were able to buy time needed against a deck like Burnt Tendrils. They were not enough to bring down the deck so keeping just missteps as counters was a bad idea but what they did was buy time and trade 1 for 1 with my selss generally setting me back a turn so I was not able to make a Desire for bigger than 3 the whole session

Drain was much to slow, my opponent cast it maybe twice over the whole session and even then only when he was already in control

Jace only ever brainstormed, no other effect was ever used

I will be looking at the post board matches another time but I certainly don't think this deck is unstoppable  from Burnt Tendrils point of view. 

[Wagner]

Having played Bomberman for years and won a ton of tournies with it, I really really like this list, goes back to the roots of what has always made this deck so stong, it's polyvalence. You can always go combo, control or beatdown, and if your opponent puts you on the wrong game plan, your odds of stealing the game are just silly good.

Also have to agree it HAS to stay 2 colors, adding black just dilutes the plan and, more important, makes you much more vulnerable to wasteland, and your worst matchups are already Null Rod decks, so you can't afford to get weake there.

Going lower than 4 Trinket mages is always a big no-no, they are the backbone if the deck.

Anyone here tested 1 Ancient Tomb? When I played it, it was a beast, allowing for faster Trinket, Salvager, Fact, Thirst, Aven and Jace.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I like the idea of tomb...but cavern is just better. I'm not sure how else you cold fit it, but definitely a cool idea.

[playkenny]

I remember playing with Ancient Tomb using a red splash with Timetwister and Enpty the Warrens to get around Stax boards i.e. Hurkles/Twist and/or Fow a turn 1 sphere, make a few goblins would be the clasisc plays.

[rologa]

What black gives to this deck is something that it never has, a good early game and also a solid and non mana intensive draw engine that the deck lost with the restriction of Thirst of Knowledge.
Black tutors help also to make combo faster. As a counterpart it makes mana base a little worse.
To include or not black depends more of your style of play but I don't think UW version is better than UWB by definition. In fact black improves MUD pairing without worsen the blue one, something not so easy to do.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

Having played Bomberman for years and won a ton of tournies with it, I really really like this list, goes back to the roots of what has always made this deck so stong, it's polyvalence. You can always go combo, control or beatdown, and if your opponent puts you on the wrong game plan, your odds of stealing the game are just silly good.

Also have to agree it HAS to stay 2 colors, adding black just dilutes the plan and, more important, makes you much more vulnerable to wasteland, and your worst matchups are already Null Rod decks, so you can't afford to get weake there.

Going lower than 4 Trinket mages is always a big no-no, they are the backbone if the deck.

Anyone here tested 1 Ancient Tomb? When I played it, it was a beast, allowing for faster Trinket, Salvager, Fact, Thirst, Aven and Jace.

I have the same number of fetchlabds and basics as kohler, and dark confidant laughs at null rod.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

The difference between black and not is simple...preference. I have tested both styles and I like UW better. Then again I never have been much a fan of bob. Saying that null rod is an issue for this deck isn't really true either because, you can run snares, tinker robot, and even SFM Batterskull package sb, and disenchants if you're that afraid of rod. Personally I am not. This deck also runs 4x Jace...

[Phele]

The black versions have also a minor advantage and that is a creature base full of humans, which support Cavern perfectly. In the UW version I had the cases that I couldn't us Cavern for my Clique/Auriok as Cavern was set on humans/wizards. Not too often, but it happens.

@Cruel: Is Vault-Key mandatory for you? If the uncounterable Auriok-Combo and the steady flow of creatures is so important for this deck, wouldn't it be consequent to cut Vault and Key to make room for more humans and maybe a third Jace?

[Cruel Ultimatum]

It just seems silly not to play vault key when you basically always have access to a key because of trinket mage.

[rologa]

I don't think vault-key combo is necessary. Auriok combo replace it and is more reliable. You have more than an Auriok and the rest it is fetchable with Trinkets. I prefer to have two useful cards instead of it.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

This deck does not want key vault at all IMO. That's just filling the deck with cards that do nothing on there own. Say you cast bob off sea, then your sea gets wasted, then you draw a black tutor that you can't cast...while you may still have as many basic lands as the UW version, there is still more of a strain on the mana base. Using black in this deck just isn't necessary, it just adds another dimension on ways to attack this deck. While casting turn 1 bob off a mox is nice and all, what happens when you draw bob mid or late game? It's just terrible. The UW version reminds me alot of landstill...it is very stream lined in its approach, and not as many random draws. Where the black version is more of a or trying to be a broken "bob" deck. It's really not worth it, but some people like bob too much...it's like riding a bike with training wheels when you can already ride without it.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

Josh, if I already landed a bob I dont care about black mana since the only other black card I play is denonic tutor. If you want to talj about training wheels we can talk about playing 4 jaces. If you want to talk about being exposed to wastelands we can talk about geting cut off 4 lands to play jace. If you want to talk about cards that do nothing/random draws we can talk about the 2nd top, v cliques and mindsensors, or md grafdiggers cage.