Human Ingenuity

[Stormanimagus]

Exava puts the Mayor Fish player on the offensive. This is were you want to be, it makes all your other spells more powerfull. It is highly relevant that it doesn't get hit by snuff out, bolt or abrupt decay. The card just doesn't care about Jace. The haste and first strike make it a bomb.

Ok, you've both convinced me. Now the question really becomes what number of them is optimal? I think 1 is actually fine as you often don't want to see 2 of them in many match-ups. Would you want 1 MD and 1 SB? Is landstill really that much of an issue? Also, is where is Huntmaster winning you games where the 4th mayor wouldn't be just better?

[Guli]

1 MD and 1 SB is exactly what I am using right now.

My opinion on Huntmaster: The card will always be welcome in Human decks. It generates, like mayor, card advantage. I believe that it does become win more if you run a lot of removal. If you are low on removal to fight mirrors, Huntmaster becomes a bomb. I prefer to run a good portion removal and not run Huntmaster, because the card is hard to cast againt Workshop and irrelevant against Oath.

A card with the same casting cost is Bloodbraid Elf. I find it an interesting option to take out Jace. It doesn't have the big body and first strike but it does immediately give you and extra card. The ability to get a card and attack Jace with haste makes it a viable SB card. I run one as the 3th Exava.

Brian tends to go as low as possible on removal. Which makes Huntmaster a very logical choice for him in my mind.

[Stormanimagus]

1 MD and 1 SB is exactly what I am using right now.

My opinion on Huntmaster: The card will always be welcome in Human decks. It generates, like mayor, card advantage. I believe that it does become win more if you run a lot of removal. If you are low on removal to fight mirrors, Huntmaster becomes a bomb. I prefer to run a good portion removal and not run Huntmaster, because the card is hard to cast againt Workshop and irrelevant against Oath.

Agreed. I think Huntmaster isn't enough of a bomb vs. landstill either as pyroclasm still nukes it and EE @0 nails it once it has flipped. Exava is all but impossible to remove so that's why I like her more.

I wanted to know your opinion on the SFM package. Is it consistent and helpful enough to be running 1 SFM and 1 B-Skull? Does 2 SFM make it more viable. I just want to make sure that, in general, all these 2-ofs in the deck are serving a purpose. Like 2 STP and 2 Mental Misstep, for example. These cards are so powerful that I'd almost want to see 3 of each. Is there a reason for not running 3 of each? Why run 1 maindeck Chalice? That seems quite random and since you can't often set it at 1 I'm not sure why you'd run it at all.

-Storm

[Guli]

Stoneforge Mystic: if you want to run more white in addition to Thalia (which should always be a 4 off) then SFM should be one of the first cards that the designer needs to look at. The card is a perfect fit and allows the Mayor Fish deck to take some punches and control the game with a Dark Confidant. Be carefull though, you will have to swing a couple times with a creature equiped with the Batterskull. Every single extra card you generate matters, SFM doesn't just give you a card on the spot, it has the ability to swing the game. It allows you to say, 'i have dedicated 2 to 4 slots that are extremely good versus aggro decks'. This opens up options to run 1 Canonist, some Sin Collector which are extremely good against non aggro decks. It is a game of slowing things down with thalia, canonist, collector and ride it out with dark confidant, mayor; stoneforge.

[Stormanimagus]

Stoneforge Mystic: if you want to run more white in addition to Thalia (which should always be a 4 off) then SFM should be one of the first cards that the designer needs to look at. The card is a perfect fit and allows the Mayor Fish deck to take some punches and control the game with a Dark Confidant. Be carefull though, you will have to swing a couple times with a creature equiped with the Batterskull. Every single extra card you generate matters, SFM doesn't just give you a card on the spot, it has the ability to swing the game. It allows you to say, 'i have dedicated 2 to 4 slots that are extremely good versus aggro decks'. This opens up options to run 1 Canonist, some Sin Collector which are extremely good against non aggro decks. It is a game of slowing things down with thalia, canonist, collector and ride it out with dark confidant, mayor; stoneforge.

I agree with this sentiment on every account except for Cannonist. I still think both you and Brian HIGHLY overrate this card, especially as a 1-of. In a dedicated Noble Fish list like Matt Elias' list from a while back with 4 Cannonist I can see it being decent, but the fact is that many of the best "blue" decks in the format can simply eot Vamp/Mystical/Brainstorm/Ancestral/Thirst or whatever into a bomb and then play that bomb ON their turn. Additionally, Cannonist can be killed by creature hate as well as Hurkyl's Recall, Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge, Ingot Chewer, Abrupt Decay. I'm sorry, but I've just rarely run across a blue opponent that gave two turds about seeing a Cannonist hit the board. Sure, against oath he's pretty good, but so are a bunch of other cards in the deck. Like, I'd rather just see a Stony Silence against Oath every time. Where does this love affair with Cannonist come from? I have tested it in the past and it really has been underwhelming for me.

-Storm

[brianpk80]

I agree with this sentiment on every account except for Cannonist. I still think both you and Brian HIGHLY overrate this card, especially as a 1-of. In a dedicated Noble Fish list like Matt Elias' list from a while back with 4 Cannonist I can see it being decent, but the fact is that many of the best "blue" decks in the format can simply eot Vamp/Mystical/Brainstorm/Ancestral/Thirst or whatever into a bomb and then play that bomb ON their turn. Additionally, Cannonist can be killed by creature hate as well as Hurkyl's Recall, Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge, Ingot Chewer, Abrupt Decay. I'm sorry, but I've just rarely run across a blue opponent that gave two turds about seeing a Cannonist hit the board. Sure, against oath he's pretty good, but so are a bunch of other cards in the deck. Like, I'd rather just see a Stony Silence against Oath every time. Where does this love affair with Cannonist come from? I have tested it in the past and it really has been underwhelming for me.

Canonist is not in there for specifically blue.  I run 1 in the sideboard for several reasons.  I haven't forgotten the brutality of various iterations of Storm combo over the years and don't want to be caught unprepared.  Being successful in an event means being prepared both for the expected and for the unexpected.  I'd board in the Canonist v. Burning Oath obviously, Gush decks, anything using Empty the Warrens as a sideboard tactic v. Fish, broken blue, BUG Fish, Belcher, Omniscience, Rogue Hermit, and sometimes swap one directly with Thalia v. Shop because I've seen a few games turn on the fact that I was able to cast her through a Golem.  I'd also consider boarding her in v. the more combo oriented Dredge lists that want to chain together Fatestitchers into an overwhelming Dread Return.  The things I believe you are discounting regarding blue are that Canonist nullifies Snapcaster Mages and secondly that it ensures you can resolve relevant spells like Ancestral Recall and Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile when you time them correctly.  If they EoT Mystical for Tinker, you can Exile the Robot immediately and they cannot respond.  She does not come in v. Bomberman or Landstill except for the Landstill variants running Snapcaster.       

As for running 2 Swords, 2 Missteps, I change the numbers depending on what else is in the build.  In general, I don't like to see hands that have all removal and no business spells.  If it's the wrong kind of removal, you just lose.  I think I used 3 Path to Exile in New York, and that was a function of using Vithian Renegades main instead of Fiend Hunter.  IIRC, the lists with 2 Swords also had some Fiend Hunters. 

As for Exava v. Huntmaster, if you check out the earlier thread on this topic, it's already been established that Exava is preferable v. Landstill but Huntmaster is better in other situations.  I run 1 and 1.  I don't like to be locked into earlier design decisions that say "4x of this, 0x of that" and find myself regretting it because I end up in a situation where I don't have an out.  The more diverse the list, the more options you have => the more opportunity you have to choose the best option given the game state and match-up and thereby sequence plays optimally.  Huntmaster is a very strong card in general that allows you to work though various unpredictable situations.  There are so many ways to play it because it really just -does so many things-, gaining life, making Wolves, direct damage to a Planeswalker or player, direct damage to a creature, 4/4 + Trample clock; it's something I'm always happy to see.  He's not indispensable but I'm happy with him and see no reason to give him the pink slip.  If you look at the best Vintage decks, after a few choice 4x's as we have here in Dark Confidant & Cavern of Souls, they pretty much all look like Highlander.  Mayor Fish plays out more like 5C Stax with a non-Bazaar draw engine than a standard Fish list. 

2 Stoneforge Mystics is fine, I play 2 sometimes.  The Chalice is not random.  It's a very powerful "ooops, I probably win" play on Turn 1 that's synergic with the build but never something you want to see in multiples.  After using it in two separate events, I have to say Chalice is outrageously good. 

[Stormanimagus]

Brian,

I am willing to acknowledge the validity of the 1-2 of design approach and I'm also certainly nothing but proud of you for taking the mantle on this deck, but I think we need to clear up our explanations here.

"Highlander" decks in Vintage have traditionally existed due to two main factors:

1. The restricted list.

2. Demonic Tutor & Vampiric Tutor and, to a lesser extent, Mystical Tutor.


A tertiary factor could be that Snapcaster Mage turns any instant/sorcery a blue deck draws into a double use, but that player still has to DRAW that card so I think reason #2 here takes precedence.

My point is that those decks work around the design space of 1-ofs in a totally different way than a deck that is simply hoping to draw them naturally. For this reason, I think a builder of a Mayor fish should carefully consider playing with tons of 1-ofs and ask the following questions:

1. Is this card the card I want to see in any particular matchup over some other card? Why?

2. How many of this card do I want to draw in a game? How bad would drawing 2 be? How bad would mulling to 2 in the same hand be? How long do I expect the game to last (in terms of turns and, in turn, draw steps, as that is what this deck cares about)

3. How early do I want to see this card? If I don't draw this early does it become less useful? How MUCH less useful?


Given these questions I think your pick of Exava is actually really good as a 1-of in the main, but cards like 1x Chalice in the main make very little sense. I think decks can play around it and you won't often draw it when it will be relevant.

I mean, we are getting into some very very deep game theory stuff here, but I'd be interested to know if diversity truly is a better approach and if we can take the argument beyond heuristics, but more into the realm of something deterministic and quantifiable. This deck is a fascinating thought experiment to say the least. Kudos to you Brian for taking the leap and innovating with it!

-Storm

[brianpk80]

Thanks Noah.

I believe there was a Meadbert analysis many years ago that ran a simulation and showed the best performing deck to be the one with the most singletons.  I'm aware that the restricted list and use of tutors contribute to the proliferation of Highlander decks.  Even if diversity/redundancy were 50/50%, keep in mind that diversity will always have an inherent edge because of the existence of commonly played cards like Phyrexian Revoker, Pithing Needle, Meddling Mage, Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, and Chalice of the Void. 

We know the cards we always want to see: Noble Hierarch, Dark Confidant, Thalia, Cavern of Souls, and Mayor except against decks with faster win-cons (Oath, etc.).  The ones to run less of are cards that are terrible in multiples: Stony Silence, Stoneforge Mystic, Eternal Witness (bad in multiples in early game), Chalice of the Void, and yes given her legendary status, it would not be good to draw 2 Exava, especially since the difficultly in removing her means that there's rarely going to be a need to replace the first one as there is for Thalia. 

Chalice of the Void is not a terrible card to maindeck; it's quite busted.  But when I played builds with multiple Chalices, I always hated drawing the second one which is too little, too late.  Running one gives you the opportunity to "ooops I (probably) win" in a way that synergizes with the mana denial of the deck but without cluttering it up with subsequent dead draws.  I want to play it on the play at 0, and if on the draw then I might still play it at 0 depending on match-up use it to Chalice out things I don't like to see, usually @ 1 which is generally asymmetrical.  I side it out on the draw sometimes.  Additionally, Chalice of the Void is very hot target for the Trinket Mage particularly in Storm combo matches.  Finally, running 1 Chalice + 2 Stony Silence means you have the equivalent of 3 Mox-control cards without having to put yourself in the awful position of risking multiple dead draws through 3-4 Silences.  If you open with Silence and then draw another, it's pointless.  If you do the same but then draw Chalice of the Void, you have options.  Hopefully that clarifies things.   

[Stormanimagus]

Thanks Noah.

I believe there was a Meadbert analysis many years ago that ran a simulation and showed the best performing deck to be the one with the most singletons.  I'm aware that the restricted list and use of tutors contribute to the proliferation of Highlander decks.  Even if diversity/redundancy were 50/50%, keep in mind that diversity will always have an inherent edge because of the existence of commonly played cards like Phyrexian Revoker, Pithing Needle, Meddling Mage, Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, and Chalice of the Void. 

We know the cards we always want to see: Noble Hierarch, Dark Confidant, Thalia, Cavern of Souls, and Mayor except against decks with faster win-cons (Oath, etc.).  The ones to run less of are cards that are terrible in multiples: Stony Silence, Stoneforge Mystic, Eternal Witness (bad in multiples in early game), Chalice of the Void, and yes given her legendary status, it would not be good to draw 2 Exava, especially since the difficultly in removing her means that there's rarely going to be a need to replace the first one as there is for Thalia. 

Chalice of the Void is not a terrible card to maindeck; it's quite busted.  But when I played builds with multiple Chalices, I always hated drawing the second one which is too little, too late.  Running one gives you the opportunity to "ooops I (probably) win" in a way that synergizes with the mana denial of the deck but without cluttering it up with subsequent dead draws.  I want to play it on the play at 0, and if on the draw then I might still play it at 0 depending on match-up use it to Chalice out things I don't like to see, usually @ 1 which is generally asymmetrical.  I side it out on the draw sometimes.  Additionally, Chalice of the Void is very hot target for the Trinket Mage particularly in Storm combo matches.  Finally, running 1 Chalice + 2 Stony Silence means you have the equivalent of 3 Mox-control cards without having to put yourself in the awful position of risking multiple dead draws through 3-4 Silences.  If you open with Silence and then draw another, it's pointless.  If you do the same but then draw Chalice of the Void, you have options.  Hopefully that clarifies things.   

It does. I may have to reconsider how I build decks like this. The diversity and inherent power of the lock-pieces/creatures that exist for this deck has gotten to the point where perhaps being able to stack one on top of the other is better than simply drawing the exact one you want a higher % of the time.

Your Stony Silence & Chalice example is apt to illustrate this. Although Stony Silence is extremely powerful it is quite obviously poor in multiples and, since it is difficult to remove, it is likely that the first Stony Silence you resolve will be the last one you have to resolve most games. Being able draw the second one less often is nice and being able to set chalice @1 instead of simply having Stony Silence #3 is a cool quirk of the card (also not having to spend any mana to get a mox hoser on the play is relevant). I guess one question I have is why run chalice AND mental Misstep? They seem to conflict a bit with one another. I realize chalice is a tutor target for Trinket as well, but isn't trinket almost always too slow against Burning Oath at stopping moxen etc.?

I will say, you've given me a lot to think about. Superior flexibility may trump superior redundancy. Also, the fact that the cards stack better (i.e you can play more of the cards in your deck on the table at the same time without cards that are poor in multiples) may simply be better in a metagame with so many diverse threats and where no one answer truly IS best.

Thanks for the discussion.

-Storm

[Guli]

But there is no such thing as going all in on redundancy or flexibility in Mayor Fish. It is actually the opposite. Mayor Fish has a core and next to that core there are slots that can go in almost any direction depending on the local competition.

We were just chatting on cockatrice about the #number of true hate cards necessary to keep the deck intact against the existing combo decks out there. I am talking about cards like Thalia and Null Rod effects. Cards that directly interfere with the chaining of spells. I counted about 10 slots in Brian's list and 9 in mine. Note that the metagame is what will define how many slots are needed. This is not easy to assess. So let's just say, you probably want a minimum of 9-10 cards to be safe these days, and if one would expect a more combo heavy metagame, the number of slots should probably go up to 12 or 13.

By not adding 4x null rod, 4x canonist (just giving an example), does NOT mean the deck will be weaker against combo. This is why I was talking about 1 Cannist, 2 Sin Collector, 4 Thalia...
So let's say something like this is probably good overall: 4 Thalia, 1 Stony, 1 Sin Collector, 1 Chalice of the Void,, 1 Gorilla Shaman, 1 Trinisphere.

A lot of other possible configurations can be invented, and it does not matter which cards these are really, as long as they are strong. Thalia is just such a bomb, she is the only one that is clearly worth the full 4 slots. But other than that, I don't see the problem with a variety of threats. The thing to remember is, and I stated this in my previous post above, these cards have a purpose to slow down the game. This is the reason why the landstill match up is so tense but extremely hard for both sides. Both decks want to slow things down But the Mayor always wins if he is patient!

[Protoaddict]

I like this discussion about diversification of threats, even outside of the context of this deck. I was trying to apply the same principals to a white trash list I was running.

Many hate cards overlap. Really what you are doing is drawing up a hate card Ven Diagram. In the context of that deck, I was running 3 Grafdiggers cards for dredge and oath. I ran 3 because having them overlap is not awful since those decks both side in answers, but not 4 because drawing it in multiple can be a dead card sometimes. As opposed to running the 4th copy in the sideboard, I wound up running a more diverse pile of threats that also had effects on dredge, maybe in different ways, but that also helped in other match ups.

It certainly is an interesting puzzle, and I do feel like just because 3 cages is right in one configuration does not mean that 4 cages would not be correct in another. I think it is very much the accompanying cards that can easily make a difference in what is the right way to skew your hate and singletons.

[serracollector]

Just wanted to throw this in, I totally loved the idea of exava, and have even tried my own variant of zombies/elves (jund style) using Dreg Mangler/BB Elf to do the same, not to mention possibly putting an easy 6++ damage on the board in one go. 


On to the deck at hand, I really liked the Fact of adding Thorn of Amethyst, and the Grand legendary dude as 2 more " spheres" to help keep the lock point in.  Like Brian said, its like 5 color stax:

3-4Thalia
Thorn
Grand
1-2 Stony
CotV
Trini
5-6 strips

This leads to a lot of different spehres that all stack to attain the same goal, but are not needed in mass.  Just wondering have you guys tried Crucible in your builds?  I find having 1 Crucible maindeck in almost any aggro build to be almost essential since I started using it.  Fetches, Horizon Canopies, Strip/Waste or manlands, the card just does so much.

Anyways continue the good work.  I really like this archetype.

[brianpk80]

I think it is very much the accompanying cards that can easily make a difference in what is the right way to skew your hate and singletons.

Definitely true.  Decks with a high count of Stony Silence, Qasali Pridemage, Abrupt Decay, and Mental Misstep are already relatively safe for something like Vault+Key and high Swords to Plowshares/Path + Fiend Hunter lists begin with added defenses to Tinker and large creatures.  When those numbers start to change, then adjustments are needed in the sideboard and auxiliary/narrow defenses.  This is also true for seemingly inconsequential cards like Sol Ring.  Sol Ring is playable and enables certain cards but then those gains are offset by a slight increase in non-Cavern color-screw which then should lower the count of things like Abrupt Decay.  

Just wanted to throw this in, I totally loved the idea of exava.

Glad to hear that.  

This leads to a lot of different spehres that all stack to attain the same goal, but are not needed in mass.  Just wondering have you guys tried Crucible in your builds?  I find having 1 Crucible maindeck in almost any aggro build to be almost essential since I started using it.  Fetches, Horizon Canopies, Strip/Waste or manlands, the card just does so much.

I've tried it and it's viable.  It seems to fit into the class of cards along with Mayor of Avabruck that is great for board presence match-ups like Shop but lacking in Oath/Storm matches and occasionally too slow against Tinker/Vault.  Running something like a blue fetch target and then Crucible of Worlds, Batterskull (or Wurmcoil/Steel/BSC if feeling bold), and Phyrexian Metamorph as targets enables a maindeck Tinker as well.  The funny thing about that is that it covers another Dredge hate slot post-sb because you effectively have 1 more Cage or Crypt.  

[saspook]

if you were to run a budget version of this, is it possible to just replace the 3moxes and lotus with 4 elvish spirit guides?

[brianpk80]

if you were to run a budget version of this, is it possible to just replace the 3moxes and lotus with 4 elvish spirit guides?

It wouldn't be as good but it would be playable.  I'd consider Lotus Petal, Deathrite Shaman, Chalice of the Void, Ancient Tomb, and upping the count of Mental Missteps so that you're online to do something turn 1 more frequently.  Many of the 3-CC's and 4-CC's would have to be cut which is going to weaken the Landstill & Bomberman matches and the lack of Moxen will be felt in the Shop match.  Null Rod over Stony Silence might be a consideration since non-Cavern white will be in slightly shorter supply w. Spirit Guides instead of Pearl/Lotus.  Still, I don't see why it wouldn't be comparable to powerless White Trash except that it's nowhere near as cheap to build due to Confidants, Nobles, Caverns, Duals/Fetches, and the Wastelands are still needed. 

[msg67183]

I agree Brian. I may not have experience with Mayor Fish, but with Spirit Guides, 7-8 "mana dorks", Strip Effects, Chalices, Missteps, and a bunch of efficient 2 drops, turn one should ALWAYS have a play that impacts the opponent.

[MrGlantz]

Whooo new humans that might be playable!

Xathrid Necromancer 2b (Rare)
Creature- Human Wizard
Whenever Xathrid Necromancer or another Human creature you control dies, put a 2/2 black Zombie token into play tapped.
"My commands shall echo forever in their empty skulls."
2/2

and

Banisher Priest 1ww (Uncommon)
Creature- Human Cleric
When Banisher Priest enters the battlefield, exile target creature an opponent controls until Banisher Priest leaves the battlefield.
"Oathbreaker, I cast you out!"
2/2

from http://mythicspoiler.com/newspoilers.html.

At first glance Banisher Priest just seems worse than Fiend Hunter in basically every way, but the Necromancer is intriguing. I'm not sure how useful it is, but I'm positive it deserves some testing.

[Guli]

Both are really worth testing. I am not sure what to think of the new Fiend Hunter. You can't target your own creatures, but the extra power could be relevant on the offensive. However, Fiend Hunter's x/3 body was on occasion relevant.

The Xathrid is like Mayor, it generates value, thus it is exactly the kind of card this archetype seeks to explore. It will be heavily tested.


The new Human Knight is not bad either, First strike, lifelink and can't be bolted, snuff outed, dismembered, decayed... Not that bad at all but maybe just a tad not strong enough for 3 mana (but I could be wrong).
I like the arts!

[serracollector]

You can using timing bounce tricks to get banisher priest to exile creatures permanently cant you? Not sure how or with what but its an interesting thought. The necromancer could be abused with all the human token makers and some sac efx. Might even be worth trying out something dredge style like dread returns, have 2 necromancer out, sac 3 humans to return exava.....get 6 tokens etc etc.  Ought to be fun to test. The new knight is almost worse than the pro red/black paladin. Lifelink isnt as good as "bob and dr. Shaman cant block me" imo.

[Guli]

Mayor is now a recognized force in the meta game. But before this was a reality, Brian and I did a lot of testing and experimenting. Even today, I am still adjusting my vieuws on Thalia and Mayor. As a result my vision and strategy change and my deck looks a lot different than it was initially over a year ago.

Xathrid feels, to me, that it has a lot of potential. I posted earlier in this thread about how many possible configurations are possible with the human types and sub types. I had a Human/Advisor list going with ESG, Teeg and Cartel Aristocrat. That list was pretty solid. When I saw this card spoiled, i immediately thought of that advisor list. The point I am making is not: 'oh it is a perfect fit to the advisor list'. No, I am rather saying that with all the exploration and getting to know how cards actually work through extensive playtesting, you create more basis of references and can see more options.

I think this card is the human Voice of Resurgence. It will be great against decks that try to control your board with removal. The more turns pass, the longer this card stays on the board, the more likely you will win. Dark Confidant, Mayor of Avabruck are also engines likes this. This card could supplement this category of cards with 1 or 2 copies main deck.

My latest, most up to date vieuw on the Caverns archetype is that it rides out on these engines while slowing the game. If you can succesfully slow the game down, the more chances the engine cards get to generate value. And eventually the advantages you build up, should break them. I am not 100% sure if Xathrid is fast enough, and strong enough, needs a lot adjusting or not... We will test and see.

[brianpk80]

I'm not sure what to make of the new Humans so far.  Every now and then, I've thought of experimenting with Entombing a Bridge from Below as a sideboard tactic v. heavy removal and the Xathrid Necromancer fits that bill perfectly.  But ultimately, that would be a strategy against something like Landstill which is already a generally favorable match-up so it's not necessary.  It might help with some Workshop situations that call for chump blocking and Smokestack sacrifices.  It's also an interesting deterrent to Wasting a Mutavault. 

The tricks with using triggers to exile permanents permanently works with Fiend Hunter but appear to not work with the new Human whose exile reads more like a state based effect.  Fiend Hunter is playable; this guy is also playable, but it's hard to tell if it's better or worse.  Going up to 2/4 w. Mayor of Avabruck has occasionally been very relevant. 

The First Strike/Lifelink guy is frustrating because the variation on pro-red/black is so watered down.  It can't be Bolted or Abrupt Decayed but it dies to Pyroclasm, Gempalm Incinerator, and Grim Lavamancer, why?  They should have just given it protection from black and red spells + abilities. 

Something tells me the more interesting Humans will appear in the fall. 

 

[vaughnbros]

Xathrid Necromancer seems like its a clear 4 of to this list.  It goes right along with Mayor and Bob as the priority target for your opponents removal.  The only decks this card won't be great against are combo and dredge, which even there its better than some of your other choices.  You can consolidate 4 of your singletons that were inteted to fight landstill/fish into 1 card, improving not only consistancy, but the overral power level of your deck.

[Samoht]

Xathrid Necromancer seems like its a clear 4 of to this list.  It goes right along with Mayor and Bob as the priority target for your opponents removal.  The only decks this card won't be great against are combo and dredge, which even there its better than some of your other choices.  You can consolidate 4 of your singletons that were inteted to fight landstill/fish into 1 card, improving not only consistancy, but the overral power level of your deck.

I disagree. Without a forced sac outlet or without multiples the card isn't all that threatening. It's simply an overcosted bear that makes bears if my other bears die. In the niche case of decks that interact with creatures by killing them I think you are better off playing something proactive than reactive. But hey, what do I know. I'd probably prefer VoR to this, and I don't think that it would be in the deck even if it was a Human.

[Guli]

I was thinking about the new M14 rules and the interaction these rules create between Thalia and Xathrid. You can do this with any legendary human. Phantasmal Image also guarantees a 2/2 zombie left over. Skullclamp also seems interesting.

Surely this card is an engine. But how many more does the Caverns deck require? And how will this card affect the other part of the deck.

[brianpk80]

Xathrid Necromancer seems like its a clear 4 of to this list.  It goes right along with Mayor and Bob as the priority target for your opponents removal.  The only decks this card won't be great against are combo and dredge, which even there its better than some of your other choices.  You can consolidate 4 of your singletons that were inteted to fight landstill/fish into 1 card, improving not only consistancy, but the overral power level of your deck.

The card merits testing but adding four copies of a 3-CC card that's simply a less economical token generator than Mayor of Avabruck is not an improvement.  It's not useful against Tinker/Time Vault.dec, Bomberman, and several Shop variants, so that limits design freedom.  I appreciate the contribution but omitting cards with broader applications for a card that's only strong in match-ups that are already good is not a positive change.  On the other hand, if there were some way to weld the Necromancer into a shell abusing Cabal Therapy and Academy Rector, that might be worth exploring. 

I was thinking about the new M14 rules and the interaction these rules create between Thalia and Xathrid. You can do this with any legendary human. Phantasmal Image also guarantees a 2/2 zombie left over. Skullclamp also seems interesting.

Surely this card is an engine. But how many more does the Caverns deck require? And how will this card affect the other part of the deck.

I like these ideas.  I'm guessing that engine will have pros and cons like any other supplement to the core.  "Optimizing" and streamlining the archetype right now seem like vain pursuits since the cards outside of the core are more situational than strictly inferior/superior to one another.  Any evolution will likely occur naturally and perhaps obviously as new blocks introduce cards that are blatantly overpowered, like Thalia, Dark Confidant, and Cavern of Souls.   

[serracollector]

how many legendary humans are worth running 4 copies of other than thalia tho?  If necromancer worked for kataki, gaddock, and such then yes it would be tech.  Maybe we will get more humans/legendary ones as m14 is spoiled.


I was thinking about a mono black human shell with necro tho, maybe one of you guys can PM me some suggestions:


loose shell v1
5 x Mox Jet
1 x Black Lotus
1 x Petal
4 x cavern of souls
4 x skullclamp
4 x necromancer
4 x Unearth
4 x confidant
4 x preist of gix
4 x dark ritual
4 x cabal therapy

from there I have found a few different options, from tutors and tendrils, to adding more black humans like royal assasin, exava (4 of, not hard with rituals), Cartel Aristocrat, Golgari Thug, Keeper of the Dead (really good in testing, not hard at all to meet the requirements), Pit Keeper (another interesting one), and Doomed Necromancer (necromancers unite!) etc etc.  Anyways, its fast, can be kept monoblack, and mainly fun  I would love for there to be more than 1 competitive variant of Humans.

[vaughnbros]

I disagree on the comparisons of Xathrid to Voice of Resonance.  They are not the same at all.  Voice forces your opponent to play everything during their turn unless they want to accelerate your clock speed and when he dies he replaces himself with at token.  Xarthid replaces every creature you control when they die not only himself.  So non-white removal and board sweepers with him on the table do not slow your clock speed.

While mayor and him are both token generators that should be answered the comparison stops there.  Mayor and all of his tokens die to a board sweeper and a removal spell on him is a straight 1 for 1.  Xarthid replaces himself with a token and capitalizes on sweepers.  Making them polar opposites in these aspects.

As far as match ups go this card has an extremely broad application... there isn't a single shop variant that I can think of where his ability is irrelevant.  Hes is clearly amazing against smokestack variants.  Against terranova and martello he generates great card advantage as your creatures will engage in combat and die during the course of the game.  Against metalworker shops he gives you the extra engine you need to overcome their rods of nin and wurmcoils.  Against bomberman his ability is definitely relevant as well.  They rely on cliques, trinket mages, and engineered explosives as their main deck options for stabilization.  Xarthid allows you to keep powering through that entire strategy.  Even against something like burning long he is relevant.  As often they need to reach for a pyroclasm or balance to clear your board with Xarthid this no longer allows them to stabilize.  Your also generating value against tinker decks that are on the baleful strix plan.  Your engine helps to offset their engine.

The only good comparison to make with him is rotlung reanimator.  He may not seem like the most broken card, but the value it generates over the course of the game is insane.  His ability also stacks getting multiples out of this guy makes it extremely difficult for your opponent to deal with, and removal actually accelerates your clock speed.

[Guli]

I never said I want to make a comparison. I raised VoR because of only 1 notion, fighting removal. And that you explained very well in your third paragraph.

As far as match ups go this card has an extremely broad application... there isn't a single shop variant that I can think of where his ability is irrelevant.  Hes is clearly amazing against smokestack variants.  Against terranova and martello he generates great card advantage as your creatures will engage in combat and die during the course of the game.  Against metalworker shops he gives you the extra engine you need to overcome their rods of nin and wurmcoils.  Against bomberman his ability is definitely relevant as well.  They rely on cliques, trinket mages, and engineered explosives as their main deck options for stabilization.  Xarthid allows you to keep powering through that entire strategy.  Even against something like burning long he is relevant.  As often they need to reach for a pyroclasm or balance to clear your board with Xarthid this no longer allows them to stabilize.  Your also generating value against tinker decks that are on the baleful strix plan.  Your engine helps to offset their engine.

Another idea for more value are Humans with Echo. Riders and Vandal?

how many legendary humans are worth running 4 copies of other than thalia tho?  If necromancer worked for kataki, gaddock, and such then yes it would be tech.  Maybe we will get more humans/legendary ones as m14 is spoiled.

Braids, Cabal Minion is the smokestack for Humans. Maybe time to put it at use?

[Samoht]

Resolving a 3cmc creature against Espresso is the challenge. There are just better cards to resolve in the match up. Serenity comes to mind. Even if it does stick it just gives you parity with their Crucible, which while good just leads to a volatile stack race, which I'm pretty sure they still win. Also, don't forget that Duplicant is more common in the Espresso decks (multiples post SB I mean) which dodges this guys ability. Though there are certainly worse cards, I certainly feel there are better ones as well.

[brianpk80]

While mayor and him are both token generators that should be answered the comparison stops there.  Mayor and all of his tokens die to a board sweeper and a removal spell on him is a straight 1 for 1.  Xarthid replaces himself with a token and capitalizes on sweepers.  Making them polar opposites in these aspects.

Howlpack Alpha and his army survive sweepers like Pyroclasm and Massacre and if an opponent burns an Engineered Explosives on the 0 setting, they've probably wasted an opportunity to inflict greater damage by using Explosives @ 2.  That aside, board sweepers aren't really the biggest threats out there.  In practice, a board sweeper should only be a minor setback from which there is fast recovery given that one of the marquis Humans is legendary and another one provides extra cards on upkeep.  If someone gets 4-for-1'ed or worse by a board sweeper, they've probably overextended and need to first adjust their knowledge of how to properly play rather than making a radical change to combat an imaginary threat. 

As far as match ups go this card has an extremely broad application... there isn't a single shop variant that I can think of where his ability is irrelevant.  Hes is clearly amazing against smokestack variants. 

Espresso is the variant where a card like this would be least relevant.  Turning a Dark Confidant into a tapped Zombie is not going to win that race.  The Mayor strategy is a very effective counter to the Golem+Tangle Wire+Thorn assaults but Smokestack+Crucible+Sphere of Resistance is more problematic.  Tom is correct; that variant requires something more like Serenity or Ancient Grudge, not a more expensive less powerful Mayor of Avabruck.   

Against bomberman his ability is definitely relevant as well.  They rely on cliques, trinket mages, and engineered explosives as their main deck options for stabilization. 

Jace's -1 or on a token or AEther Spellbomb eradicates it and Bomberman should be siding in 4 Swords to Plowshares.  Xathrid would not be superb here.  I'd much prefer one of the CITP Humans like Sin Collector or Exava the Jace-eating Blood Witch. 
 

Even against something like burning long he is relevant.  As often they need to reach for a pyroclasm or balance to clear your board with Xarthid this no longer allows them to stabilize. 

He's definitely not relevant against Burning Long.  You have to go into hard control mode v. Burning and the creature based clock is not important there at all.   If they're Wishing for Balance to kill creatures instead of killing their opponent, they've lost the game and unsurprisingly I've never seen this tactic succeed as an equalizer.  It's more like "Oh crap, I'm at 8 life, there's a Stony Silence in play and my only lands left are a City of Brass and Forbidden Orchard.  So I'll go down to 7, give another token, Burning Wish for Balance, and hope I don't see a Wasteland so I can cast Balance next turn with the City to kill 2 Bobs and the token."  But the ship is still sinking. 
 

The only good comparison to make with him is rotlung reanimator.  He may not seem like the most broken card, but the value it generates over the course of the game is insane. 

This is a good point, but the comparison is made to Mayor of Avabruck because they both serve as creature based aggression and board presence most effective against non-broken decks.  Like Tarmogoyf, there is no direct disruption, only a clock.  Unlike Tarmogoyf however, the Mayor Wolf has stats and an effect that make it peculiarly antagonistic to the Tangle Wire/Golem strategy so much that it qualifies as disruption there to the same degree as Thalia disrupts Storm & Blue.  Aside from being non-Human, I wouldn't run Tarmogoyf because it doesn't disrupt and the disruption here from the Necromancer seems very narrow, limited to red/black removal, creature trades, and board sweepers, bases that are adequately covered by Mishra's Factory, Stoneforge Mystic, CITP creatures, and Exava the Witch.  Mirror matches and match-ups against most other Fish variants revolve around Dark Confidant and Equipments.  I don't think this card changes that.  There may be times when a metagame is so saturated in that kind of removal that this makes sense as a sideboard card, but if anything I sense a shift away from that, especially with the success of white in the new Tinker/Time Vault.dec. 

I'm not trying to give you a hard time or dismiss the strengths of the card or its possibilities.  I just think if there's potential there, it needs a shell designed to exploit that rather than being shoehorned into Mayor Fish.  You have good aptitude for fusing archetypes and having success with novel designs.  Since this card is so similar to Bridge from Below, it might combine well with the Hermit Druid ideas people were experimenting with earlier this year.