Human Ingenuity

[shrewarmies]

Yesterday I took Humans to NLG's monthly Vintage event and managed to take the whole thing down. The actual tournament was notable for my eventual finals opponent who was running Slivers and managed to smash his way through the Swiss with raw aggression. I thought I would give a quick rundown of the list I played and how I went. The list I played was:

1) Joshua Butler - Cavern Humans
Lands (21)
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
2 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory

Artifacts (6)
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald

1 Chalice of the Void
1 Batterskull

Creatures (24)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Fiend Hunter
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sin Collector
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
1 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV

Enchantments (2)
2 Stony Silence

Instants (7)
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
2 Mental Misstep
2 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard (15)
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 True Believer
1 Glowrider
1 Path to Exile

The first thing to note is the lack of Pearl and Lotus. We have a Sanctioned event coming up and I am unlikely to pick up those particular pieces of power before then so I have been testing decks without those pieces. Other than that it is mostly a port of Brian's on Page 8 from this thread. I went back to 4 Thalias, and replaced my missing cards with a Path to Exile and the singleton Deathrite Shaman.  Going forward I would probably cut the Arbiter; the 4 cost, combined with the U in its casting cost meant that it was at times hard to cast. As Brian pointed out when he placed with the list, Arbiters Helm effect was negligible but the sphere did help. I had trouble at times with Stoneforge but not as much as I had with Arbiter. I was consistently amazed at Mayor of Avabruck, I have built many of the Human lists on here and tested them but not played them in a tournament and he was amazing all day. I will most likely be going up to 4 of this guy just because of how good he was for me all day.

As to Brian's point that he made in that post on page 8, 4 Thalias did make some dead draws, there were definitely at least 2 occasions where I had a Thalia on the board and two in hand in which a thorn would be better for the situation. I am not sure whether that is actually a good move as an early Thalia often stemmed some additional damage allowing me an extra turn later on for Bob/Batterskull. Maybe the dead draws from running multiple Thalia's is a gambit we have to take. I could go in either direction. Factories were great all day also and I totally agree with the higher number I ran.


Tournament

Round One - Burn (Gavin Kroeger) Win 2-1
Game 1) The third tournament in a row I am playing Gavin in the first round and I am not feeling good about this matchup. I beat him in Legacy last week (with the same decks) by mising my Chalice of the Void on the play turn 1 which was enough. He leads with a Lava Spike puting me to 17 but I have a turn 1 Thalia which gives me some hope. I'm not sure if he is playing correctly or not but his experience last week leads him toward burning my creatures out before hitting my dome (with the spells which could target creatures that is) which does give me more draws. He Lightning Helix's my Thalia and I cast Confidant. He has no more targeted creature removal so casts Flame Rift and I spend my turns beating him down with Confidant and Mishra's Factory. I don't fall below 10 life this game.

Game 2) I lead with a Noble Hierarch which he lets live and I take a Chain Lightning to the face. I drop a Bob and take some more burn to the face. Bob deals 3 damage to me over two turns and I get a Deathrite Shaman which gains me 4 life. I am looking quite good at 11 Life with an active Deathrite and a healthy graveyard when I try to lock him out and cast the Glowrider in my hand, he responds with Price of Progress and Fireblast and I am dead.

Game 3) Again I open with a Hierarch which lives  and I drop a Mayor on turn 2. Unfortunately for him he has only 2 Rift Bolts so my guy flips and my Thalia stops him from casting both Rifts and he elects to kill Thalia. I drop a True Believer which he has to kill and by then I have enough wolves to finish him. He is threatening Price again to kill me on his last draw step when I wasteland my own City of Brass and I am out of his range and Price of Progress would leave me at 1 for me to swing through with lethal.

Round 2 - U/R Landstill (Jimbo) Loss 0-2
Game 1) I cannot stress how long this game went. This was an amazing match and I enjoyed playing it. What makes this doubly good was the my opponent had a turn 1 Jace. I had no responses so My turn is to play a Thalia and a Hierarch. My opponent has heaps of removal but his Jace is staying on generally low counters, thanks to my Factory, when I find my second Cavern and land a Stoneforge Mystic. Mystic brings in Batterskull which kills his Jace when he plays another and bounces the Germ. Wastelands keep going back and forth and neither of us are keeping our manlands for long and my two Abrupt Decays immediately kill his Crucibles when they land. I manage to keep his Jace to only going up +1 each turn due to Noble Hierarch attacking it. I try and stall the game out as much as I can (turns wise) because he is getting dangerously low on cards in his Library and the game finally ends with him having two cards in Library, -12ing Jace and casting two Standstills in a row causing me to draw 3 cards with a 3 card Library and I die on my turn when I can’t draw. 

Game 2) I open a hand with Waste, Strip, Cavern, Thalia and some other spells and I figure that I can keep him on his back foot with my multiple wastes however he had more Basics and Fetches than I had Strips and he crushes me quite quickly… landstill quickly.

Round 3) Cobra Gush (Tim Dolphin) Win 2-1
Game 1) I open and keep a hand with Scrubland, Swords, Dark Confidant and a Wasteland (kept 7). I knew he was on Cobra Gush so I figured the swords is live and so is the waste so I figured the hand was good enough. Obviously a Lotus, Mox, Land, DT, Twister later and I am left with a 0 land hand with 2 missteps. He keeps on the Tendrils/warrens plan but I manage to fizzle him by countering a Preordain and a Mystical Tutor. He blind gushes into the tinker and we go to game 2.

Game 2)  I go Land, Hierarch go. He Tinkers for Blightsteel on his first turn. I don’t think I have any outs, drop my Mayor on the board. He reads it a few times and I am really confused because it’s clear to me that all I am doing is making a blocker. He swings in and I go to 9 poison counters after I gang block and peel the swords to plowshares which he can’t counter and he goes to 28. He is pretty much spend as I drop a Thalia and his life total drops by 5’s until it hits 0.

Game 3) I think he keeps a land light hand and I meet his turn 1 Cobra with a Swords to Plowshares. He plays land go  and I drop my Stony Silence, even though I have waste which I play the following turn along with a Thalia. He Ancestrals into multiple artifact mana sources  and that gives me the window to land a Confidant followed by Grand Arbiter and he just never cast another spell beyond Moxen to keep his hand size below 7.

Round 4 - Metalworker MUD (Jeffery Chan) Win 2-1
Game 1) I keep 3 lands, a Swords and a Fiend Hunter and two other spells. His turn is Lodestone go. I play my Wasteland, go. He casts Lodestone #2, wastes me and bases me. I play my Cavern hoping to rip something to keep 1 swords active when I play my Scrubland the following turn. Unfortunately for me, Jeffery plays wasteland #2 and I scoop.

Game 2) I landed a Dark Confidant on turn 1 and he draws my some cards before chumping a Lodestone which got shown the Path to Exile . I manage to drop a Mayor of Avabruck which quickly ends the game with 3/3 tokens. I apologize for the brevity of these game analysis but I can’t really remember some games as well as others.

Game 3) I rush out of the gate game 3 with Thalia, Noble Hierarch and Mayor of Avabruck in the early turns and he seems to have only one land. He does however land a Metalworker and I don’t have removal so I cast a Stoneforge for Batterskull and he taps his Metalworker for 14 mana and gets double Wurmcoil Engine and Lodestone on the field. I play my batterskull onto the field and equip Thalia and attack with Thalia. Thalia here is lethal so he has to block, gaining me 6 life, leaving him with some tokens. I spend my following turns gaining 12 life a cycle thanks to Thalia/Batterskull and draw into removal and blockers until he is forced to start throwing cards in front of my Thalia which eventually kills him.   

So I managed to go 3-1 in the swiss

Top 4 – U/W Landstill (Ben Kearney) Win 2-1
Game 1) He gets greedy and keeps Waste+ Factory x 2  for Mana but I have 2 Caverns in hand and My Dark Confidant draws me into the win as he doesn’t have the colored mana to plow it. Once Mayor hits the table it is really just game over

Game 2) This game went for over an hour and I cannot really remember a heap of the details. Both hands developed slowly and I made the first move by playing a Cavern on Artificer and putting down a Stoneforge which was turned into a Farmer but my Mayor the following turn resolved and flipped on his upkeep. This mayor stayed in play most of the game churning out 3/3’s all but 1 turn of the game and the reason the game went so long was because of this one card. I dropped my second stoneforge and put the Batterskull into play which was met by my opponents E.E for 0 and his own Batterskull. He gets his crucible online when I am one land short for Exava and I never get to 5 mana as he starts gaining a heap of life. His Snapcaster Mage is suited up with 2 Batterskulls which I chump with my Stoneforge and 3 Wolves but he has the mana to bounce and recast them while I have 3 lands and get wasted every turn from here on out but he does not have the creatures to get around my stream of 3/3’s but eventually I lose the Germ on my Batterskull  which I never get back and he eventually finds the second swords for my Howlpack Alpha and it was just a matter of mopping up what I had left.

Game 3) The only life change I have on my notes was myself losing 1 to a fetchland. Ben losing 4 to a Huntmaster of the Fells, going to 8 off another attack and then dying so I can assume I resolved a Huntmaster and beat him down with that and the wolf token.

Finals – Slivers (Michael Runic) Win 2-0
Game 1)I am hastily put down to 14 life before I begin my turn 3/4 and my only response has been to play Batterskull which he keeps activating Hibernation Sliver to stop me gaining life at the cost of two of his own. I go down to 10 when he is one turn off lethal. I am forced to Abrupt Decay his Æther Vial and play chalice at two which shuts off his Time Walk which gives me the time to gain 4 life from Batterskull  and he cant alpha strike me because he doesn’t have enough power on the board to kill me in one swing and I threaten Lethal on the return swing thanks to the vigilance on Batterskull and he is forced to start blocking Batterskull and cannot afford to return them to his hand and I beat him down slowly.

Game 2) I Misstep his  Æther Vial and in a play reminiscint of the BoM finals I play 3 wasteland effects in a row, play a threat and he can’t come back in time. The Misstep on the Vial was particularly brutal as he could have just left it at 2 and I would have been dead by turn 4/5 even if he had not drawn any other lands.


Overall I walked away with an Underground Sea and free Entry to our Masters tournament coming up in a couple of weeks so I am really pleased with the deck and its performance today. There are a couple of tweaks that might change it for the better but I think the deck is in really good shape at the moment. Obviously the Pearl and Lotus would make it better but we shall see how I go with it from here. I also played a variant at NLG’s Legacy event and did quite well there also so as a whole this deck has been very good to me.

[hashswag]

Not 100% sure about that top 4 match report lol. I didn't run any EE and never saw you play a Huntmaster.  

Game one was definitely a bad keep. I think I thought one of my blue counters was my Mox Sapphire (basic island + sharpie) and snap kept it based on the 2x Wasteland and StP. I wasted Josh's Cavern turn 1, passed the turn, then went to play a blue source the next turn and triple checked my hand. Oops.

Game two was insane. I had to repeatedly bounce and replay my Batterskulls, while keeping him off the Batterskull he tutored up by Wasting his lands with Crucible. His Mayor of Avabruk was working overtime, making 2/2s (effectively 3/3s) every turn to block and kill skull, so I basically was forced to hold on for 10+ turns until I could naturally draw one of my 4x Swords to deal with the Mayor and start profitably attacking for more than just an obscene life total. I made a couple of bad mistakes by not remembering what Josh had named with cavern and letting a couple of dudes revolve that I probably should have got rid of with the otherwise useless counterspells in my hand, lol.

Game 3, I think I mulled to 5 to find a land and only hit 1x Tundra, which got wasted and I couldn't recover. Pretty sure Mayor + friends beat me down that game.

As a side note, watching Thalia (wearing a Batterskull) kill a Wurmcoil and live to tell the tale in Josh's 4th round was amusing.

[shrewarmies]

Yea, Like I said I couldn't remember details. You got rid of my germ which means I had a useless batterskull as I never hit 5 mana to replay/equip it.

[Guli]

Thanks for the report! Also nice to see another top 8, and in this case you took the first place. Just wonderful from my point of view

I would not advise cutting on Thalia. But the GA is not so important, what card would you play instead?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Sweet report.  Not sure if I just missed it, but how many players battled?

[hashswag]

There were 12 players overall. Full report by Josh over here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45470.msg628517#new

[shrewarmies]

Unfortunately we do not have a huge vintage scene here in Melbourne but it's much bigger than it was 12 or so months ago and it seems to be growing.

[Protoaddict]

Can I ask why it is a lot of these lists don't run Mother of runes? She seems like she would be amazing in every match up except shops as she protects your key pieces from bolt and swords, and she is a turn 1 drop which is useful in a deck that otherwise lacks them.

Likewise, I feel like Karakas as a one of makes total sense to bounce your Exava or Thalia in times of need. I wont lie, I don't know the deck all that well, but seeing this list and then not seeing those 2 cards and maybe even Knight of the reliquary seems odd, so I would love to know the reasoning.

[Guli]

I just saw another top 8 of Mayor, but the curious thing is the amount of lands in the deck. Only 15! Ok there are Nobles and ESG, which I understand  with 4 Gaddock and Decays. ESG is a card that I am considering to bring back. This performance confirms that it is valid. But man, 15 lands, you need to have balls for that. Even with ESG, I would not dare to go below 18. Note that there are 4 waste effects so that brings it down to 11 lands )

Here is the list:
Samantha Reichert
Deck Name: Man Bear Fish
Top 4 @ $2,000 Vintage Event - Part of TDG´s 2013 Eternal Series
22/06/2013


Lands [15]
1 Karakas
1 Strip Mine
3 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls

Artifacts [5]
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire

Instants [10]
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
4 Mental Misstep

Creatures [30]
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Shardless Agent
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Sideboard
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Stony Silence
3 Rest in Peace
3 Grafdigger's Cage

[tito del monte]

But man, 15 lands, you need to have balls for that.

piloted by....

Samantha Reichert

I couldn't help but flag up this unintentional genius from Guli! Great to see the deck putting up some numbers. I like the redundency of Samantha's list, plus the use of Revokers to give you another potentially uncounterable disruption piece (naming Horror with Cavern). I'm quietly hoping it will soon be possible to drop all counterable stuff from the deck entirely to reduce blue players' chances of interacting on the stack with you to virtually nothing... let's see what future printings bring...

[Guli]

I will surely test out this mana base. Intriguing! It allows for more threats. I use to run 17-19 lands, and now I am used to 21-22 lands. I would say the amount of mulligans should rise with only 15 lands in the deck. You would have to keep one lander hands and hope to top deck a second land within 2 turns.

It would be awesome if Samantha would share her results and experiences with the deck. I am especially curious about the mana base on this one. The Revoker and Cavern is not something new, but you don't always get a second Cavern.

Against decks like landstill and workshop you never want to miss a land drop. And if you do miss a land drop, you want to squeeze in some anti-workshop bomb like Trygon and accept a fragile mana base (or a completely destroyed mana base) but ride it out on your bomb.

[MaximumCDawg]

15 lands?  That's like Elf-ball territory here.  Recall that Elfball usually runs only 4 - 8 true mana dorks to get the ball rolling as well...

1. She runs three spirit guides, four hierarchs, four moxen, and a lotus.  Including the artifacts alone puts the mana count back at a respectable 20, and the mana dorks bump it up further.  Looking at the mana stones as subs for basic lands, the mana seems much more reasonable.

2. She runs three Shardless Agents and two Dark Confidants, both of which dig into her deck for mana.  Shardless generates virtual mana by casting things, and Confidant draws you more lands. 

I think this is a good list to play with the Big Dogs.  Hatebear.dec needs to get lucky to win, and this deck gives it the tools to be lucky.  Sure, it can faceplant in spectacular fashion against Shops if it can't draw lands, but the deck can reliably expect to have two mana on turn 1 for a hatebear in most games.

[MTGFan]

Here's an idea for an addition to this archetype:



At first glance, the most important attribute of this card is its ability to shut down draws. It will stop Jace, Recall, Brainstorm, initial draw step draw, etc.

The downside is that if you play her, your opponent gets a free Grim Tutor on the next turn. The way to mitigate this is to either A.) play effects that stop your oppnent from tutoring before playing Maralen or B.) flash Maralen into play at your opponent's EOT, and get the Grim Tutor effect before he does, and then find a way to achieve A

Here are the ways to make a "combo" out of Maralen and effects that can stop the tutor trigger it gives your opponent:

- Shadow of Doubt
- Stifle
- Leonin Arbiter
- Aven Mindcensor
- Stranglehold
- Mindlock Orb

Mindlock Orb and Strangehold are the best at stopping tutor effects, but are too expensive for Vintage play. The way to go with Maralen seems to be either a Cavern Creatures list with Arbiter and Mindcensor, or a B/U Delver-like list with Snapcasters, Delver, Stifle and Shadow of Doubt.

Because this is the Human Ingenuity Thread, I think we need to focus on the the former list. We've already seen that Aven Mindcensor is good on its own in this archetype, but it becomes even better with Maralen. Leonin Arbiter similarly is pretty decent on its own, and becomes better with maralen.

If you go the Arbiter/Mindcensor route, you can also play stuff like Ghost Quarter alongside Wasteland and give it a serious LD theme.

Of course, any list that plays Maralen needs to play Vial as well, to be able to flash her in at EOT and maximize her abilities.

With Mindcensor, Arbiter, and Maralen, you have the ability to shut down both card draw and card tutoring and completely lock an opponent out of the game.

What do you guys think about adding her to these lists in some fashion?

[Guli]

Here's an idea for an addition to this archetype:



At first glance, the most important attribute of this card is its ability to shut down draws. It will stop Jace, Recall, Brainstorm, initial draw step draw, etc.

The downside is that if you play her, your opponent gets a free Grim Tutor on the next turn. The way to mitigate this is to either A.) play effects that stop your oppnent from tutoring before playing Maralen or B.) flash Maralen into play at your opponent's EOT, and get the Grim Tutor effect before he does, and then find a way to achieve A

Here are the ways to make a "combo" out of Maralen and effects that can stop the tutor trigger it gives your opponent:

- Shadow of Doubt
- Stifle
- Leonin Arbiter
- Aven Mindcensor
- Stranglehold
- Mindlock Orb

Mindlock Orb and Strangehold are the best at stopping tutor effects, but are too expensive for Vintage play. The way to go with Maralen seems to be either a Cavern Creatures list with Arbiter and Mindcensor, or a B/U Delver-like list with Snapcasters, Delver, Stifle and Shadow of Doubt.

Because this is the Human Ingenuity Thread, I think we need to focus on the the former list. We've already seen that Aven Mindcensor is good on its own in this archetype, but it becomes even better with Maralen. Leonin Arbiter similarly is pretty decent on its own, and becomes better with maralen.

If you go the Arbiter/Mindcensor route, you can also play stuff like Ghost Quarter alongside Wasteland and give it a serious LD theme.

Of course, any list that plays Maralen needs to play Vial as well, to be able to flash her in at EOT and maximize her abilities.

With Mindcensor, Arbiter, and Maralen, you have the ability to shut down both card draw and card tutoring and completely lock an opponent out of the game.

What do you guys think about adding her to these lists in some fashion?

Nothing new
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=42869.0

But interesting nevertheless, give it a try and tell us how it went.

15 lands?  That's like Elf-ball territory here.  Recall that Elfball usually runs only 4 - 8 true mana dorks to get the ball rolling as well...

1. She runs three spirit guides, four hierarchs, four moxen, and a lotus.  Including the artifacts alone puts the mana count back at a respectable 20, and the mana dorks bump it up further.  Looking at the mana stones as subs for basic lands, the mana seems much more reasonable.

2. She runs three Shardless Agents and two Dark Confidants, both of which dig into her deck for mana.  Shardless generates virtual mana by casting things, and Confidant draws you more lands. 

I think this is a good list to play with the Big Dogs.  Hatebear.dec needs to get lucky to win, and this deck gives it the tools to be lucky.  Sure, it can faceplant in spectacular fashion against Shops if it can't draw lands, but the deck can reliably expect to have two mana on turn 1 for a hatebear in most games.

I realize that she runs esg and nobles, I pointed that out in my post. That doesn't mean it is a stable mana base. We have pushed the Caverns in a direction with 21 lands. Brian does this, I adopted this land count and consider it correct for what we are trying to accomplish. And even with the 21-22 lands we still sometimes get mana screwed. Sure, sometimes there is the flood, but then our high casting cost cards like Exava and Batterskull come into play.

I find it fascinating that suddenly someone gets a very good results with 15 lands with Caverns. It kinda shocked me! It is not a matter of running nobles and moxes, these cards we all run. It is about dropping a land every turn, building up gradually, grinding them out of the game, getting a constant growth in pressure But Samantha took the deck to a different place, and I love it.

[MTGFan]

interesting, Guli.

What have you been your results in testing with Maralen? I've found that the effect is indeed powerful if you can assemble the combo or flash her in, but without a Vial @ 3 and/or Mindcensor in play, (or in the UB version, a Stifle or Shadow in hand), it is very dangerous to give the oppponent a free Grim Tutor.

Have you considered a U/B list that plays Dark Confidants and Delvers as well as the broken blue spells?

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Cavern of Souls

4 Dark Confidant
4 Maralen of the Mornsong
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Shadow of Doubt
3 Thoughtseize
4 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Stifle
1 Time Walk

This way, all you need to do is cast Maralen with Shadow of Doubt or Stifle in hand. Then you stop the trigger from resolivng for opponent, and then next turn tutor up more Shadow, or a Snapcaster to replay Shadow. Maralen's 3 damage will keep pinging them too, so as long as you have more life and better board state, it is game over.

This way also the Caverns can be permanently set to "Wizard" because all 16 of the creatures in the deck are Wizards.

And Shadow of Doubt may look bad, but actually is decent on its own - play it in response to fetchlands, Tinker, Forgemaster, Stoneforge Mystic, Tutors, etc.

[Guli]

I like your idea of instants to stop their grim tutor. I used time walk and regrowth/snap to keep walking and deal just enough damage at the cost of losing 3 myself with each time walk, but this is not relevant, since you are winning the game by giving them more than 3 damage, and you will deal another 3 so all you need to do is get them to 3 life. Sometimes you just get them to 5 and fetch an Aven or Clique, and Clique them after they grim. If they grim for a non instant you can put it on bottom, and they don't even get to draw a card from clique because drawing cards isn't allowed.

I used Karakas to bounce Clique (to keep putting their cards in bottom and they don't get to draw so they are losing cards) or sometimes Maralen to avoid life loss if I needed to do this.

If the deck is designed and tuned nicely, resolving a Maralen should end the game. Don't forget, they can't really tutor up a A.R. because it doesn't work anymore. Time walk doesn't do a lot when Jace can't draw. In fact, without a board, time walk just reads lose 3 life for them. Tinker is cool, but you also get to tutor a tinker answer so it is useless. Also with main deck tutor hate, Tinker loses power anyway against Maralen.dec.

I don't think it is really something the Human core is looking for though. Maralen is more about regrowth, snapcaster, aven, time walk, karakas, and so on...

[brianpk80]

Thank you for the report Josh.  There have been a lot of worthwhile posts in the past week that merit discussion.  I regret that I've been too busy to respond recently with the comprehensiveness they deserve.  Hopefully when things calm down in work/personal life I can address things more in depth.  Hope all is well!  -B

[vaughnbros]

After testing with Guli's idea of playing with Braids in humans here's what I've come up with...

Creatures (29):
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator
4 Mayor of Avabruk
3 Xathrid Necromancer
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Devout Witness

Non creature spells (10):
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

Lands (21):
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
4 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Bayou

SB:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Rest in Peace
2 Dismember
3 Mother of Runes
2 Notion Thief

I think the deck has a lot of power to it.  Braids gives the deck an almost shops feel and is the most powerful card in the deck in a majority of match ups.  Braids/Thalia/Thorn/Strip effects provide a great mana denial package.  Bob/Finkel provide a ton of card draw.  Mayor/Xathrid help you win the permanent war.  Hierarch/Pilgrim give the deck the mana accel it needs to hit early braids. Devout Witness/Swords provide the deck with main deck removal.  

I tested through a pretty extensive gaunlet of decks and none seemed to give it serious problems.  Burning long is probably its worst match up, while bomberman is probably its best.

I was looking to see if anyone has any input on it.  As I am out of ideas on how to improve it further.

[MTGFan]

How does it do against control decks like UR Landstill? I would imagine Bolts + Pyroclasm + Card Advantage would be a bad matchup for this type of list.

[vaughnbros]

How does it do against control decks like UR Landstill? I would imagine Bolts + Pyroclasm + Card Advantage would be a bad matchup for this type of list.

Its a favorable match up.

Xathrid Necromancers and Mother of runes make removal unprofitable against this list.  On top of that Bob, Braids, Mayor, and Finkel all need to be answered soon after they are played or I have already gained value out of them.  

They have CA only if they are capable of keeping my creatures off the table and I have 29 of them with 4 cards that make them uncounterable.  Jace and standstill don't work too well without board position.  Sideboarded I also gain Notion Thief.

[Samoht]

How does it do against control decks like UR Landstill? I would imagine Bolts + Pyroclasm + Card Advantage would be a bad matchup for this type of list.

Its a favorable match up.

Xathrid Necromancers and Mother of runes make removal unprofitable against this list.  On top of that Bob, Braids, Mayor, and Finkel all need to be answered soon after they are played or I have already gained value out of them.  

They have CA only if they are capable of keeping my creatures off the table and I have 29 of them with 4 cards that make them uncounterable.  Jace and standstill don't work too well without board position.  Sideboarded I also gain Notion Thief.

I mean, Mom seems bad against a Factory wall. Furthermore, I don't think Xathrid Necromancer is all that inspiring. Either you don't attack with it to protect it from dying or you lose it in a block and it does a Doomed Traveler impression. Either way you walk into EE pretty hard as well.

[vaughnbros]

How does it do against control decks like UR Landstill? I would imagine Bolts + Pyroclasm + Card Advantage would be a bad matchup for this type of list.

Its a favorable match up.

Xathrid Necromancers and Mother of runes make removal unprofitable against this list.  On top of that Bob, Braids, Mayor, and Finkel all need to be answered soon after they are played or I have already gained value out of them.  

They have CA only if they are capable of keeping my creatures off the table and I have 29 of them with 4 cards that make them uncounterable.  Jace and standstill don't work too well without board position.  Sideboarded I also gain Notion Thief.

I mean, Mom seems bad against a Factory wall. Furthermore, I don't think Xathrid Necromancer is all that inspiring. Either you don't attack with it to protect it from dying or you lose it in a block and it does a Doomed Traveler impression. Either way you walk into EE pretty hard as well.

Wasteland, Swords, Exalted, Mayor pump, and Devout wit give me plenty of ways to power through a factory.  And with braids and bob I'm usually not too unhappy about having to slow down my creatures from attacking.

Mom and Xathrid are much more powerful in the fish mirrors.  They just so happen to be effective at reducing the power of removal in the match up I was asked about.  I did actually consider doomed traveler because of the synergy with braids so I don't really see an impression of that card as a bad thing.

For EE if they are not popping it at 2 to get rid of mayor/bob/thalia then I'd consider that a win.

[brianpk80]

It's interesting.  To be clear, I didn't intend to indict the Necromancer as a card itself.  I just didn't think blindly throwing four of them into a pre-existing shell was the way to proceed.  The lists here makes more sense as a home for XN.  Mox Sapphire is probably wondering how it lost the audition to an Avacyn's Pilgrim.  I'm guessing Null Rod/Silence is not present because it nonbos with Braids, enabling easy decisions to sacrifice dead cards, but considering the history of Null Rod's success in Smokestack lists, it's worth reconsidering.  It sounds like the gains here come at the expense of turning one of the better match-ups (Burning Oath) into one of the worst, since it loses Misstep, Null Rod/Silence, and the Traps + white anti Oath/Storm creatures from the sb. 

The suicide factor seems a bit intense to me with higher CMC Bob flips and no Bob management or lifegain but I'll reserve judgment till trying it firsthand.  When is the XN officially legal? 

Thanks for sharing. 

[vaughnbros]

It's interesting.  To be clear, I didn't intend to indict the Necromancer as a card itself.  I just didn't think blindly throwing four of them into a pre-existing shell was the way to proceed.  The lists here makes more sense as a home for XN.  Mox Sapphire is probably wondering how it lost the audition to an Avacyn's Pilgrim.  I'm guessing Null Rod/Silence is not present because it nonbos with Braids, enabling easy decisions to sacrifice dead cards, but considering the history of Null Rod's success in Smokestack lists, it's worth reconsidering.  It sounds like the gains here come at the expense of turning one of the better match-ups (Burning Oath) into one of the worst, since it loses Misstep, Null Rod/Silence, and the Traps + white anti Oath/Storm creatures from the sb.  

The suicide factor seems a bit intense to me with higher CMC Bob flips and no Bob management or lifegain but I'll reserve judgment till trying it firsthand.  When is the XN officially legal?  

Thanks for sharing.  

Necro is legal 1 week from today

If you are looking for life gain I'd suggest 1 sword of light and shadow and 1 umezawas jitte. They double as additional ways of winning the permanent war.

You're welcome always glad to share.

[MrGlantz]

After testing with Guli's idea of playing with Braids in humans here's what I've come up with...

Creatures (29):
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator
4 Mayor of Avabruk
3 Xathrid Necromancer
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Devout Witness

Non creature spells (10):
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

Lands (21):
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
4 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Bayou

SB:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Rest in Peace
2 Dismember
3 Mother of Runes
2 Notion Thief

I think the deck has a lot of power to it.  Braids gives the deck an almost shops feel and is the most powerful card in the deck in a majority of match ups.  Braids/Thalia/Thorn/Strip effects provide a great mana denial package.  Bob/Finkel provide a ton of card draw.  Mayor/Xathrid help you win the permanent war.  Hierarch/Pilgrim give the deck the mana accel it needs to hit early braids. Devout Witness/Swords provide the deck with main deck removal.  

I tested through a pretty extensive gaunlet of decks and none seemed to give it serious problems.  Burning long is probably its worst match up, while bomberman is probably its best.

I was looking to see if anyone has any input on it.  As I am out of ideas on how to improve it further.

Haha this list is awesome. I dunno how powerful it is, but it looks silly and super fun. I definitely will want to test this.

[saspook]

Here is the list I am thinking of playing this weekend.  Thoughts?  I am expecting more Oaths than 1cc cards and moved the Misteps out of the main deck.  I also removed the blue completely and do not have the usual 5 color lands.

Lands (20)
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
2 Mutavault

Artifacts (8)
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Batterskull
1 Thorn of Amathyst

Creatures (23)
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Fiend Hunter
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Sin Collector
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Enchantments (2)
2 Stony Silence

Instants (7)
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
4 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard (15)
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenetus
2 Mental Mistep
1 True Believer
1 Glowrider
2 Ethersworn Canonist

[Guli]

What kind and how many workshop do you expect?

[saspook]

What kind and how many workshop do you expect?

This was the meta the prior event (which allowed proxies, this time it is sanctioned)
1/2  [Resto Control] got $70 Store Credit
1/2  [Red Shops] got $70 Store Credit
3rd   [UW Helm-Line] got $40 Store Credit
4th  [Metalworker Shops] got $40 Store Credit
5th   [Turbo Tezz] got $20 Store Credit
6th   [Suicide Jace] got $20 Store Credit
7th  [Stax] got $20 Store Credit
8th   [Dredge] got $20 Store Credit

 9th Burning Oath
10th UW Fish
11th Dark Times
12th Oath Regush
13th Dragon Oath
14th Metalworker Shops
15th Grixis Control
16th Burning Oath
17th 5c Stax
18th UB Control
19th Grixis Control
20th BUG Fish

[Guli]

you could make some room in the sideboard for 2 Artifact Mutation. I see Stax and Metalworker and even red Shops. I think this means you will need answers to Welders, Metalworkers and things like Forgemaster and Hellkites. Some Mutation offer good support to Stony, Path, Swords and Fiend Hunters.

Might also want to consider City of Brass and maybe some bolts main deck.

This is how my testing list looks like:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mayor of Avabruck

3 Stingscourger
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
1 Ingot Chewer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Eternal Witness

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Null Rod

4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Brass
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby

SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Artifact Mutation
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

[brianpk80]

This was the meta the prior event (which allowed proxies, this time it is sanctioned)

List looks competent overall.  I would run Mishra's over Mutavault because Mishra's is a better defensive play against Golems and can operate as 3/3 without Mayor of Avabruck.  In the sideboard, you can switch the extra Factory with Karakas since there's no Landstill there while there is a lot of Oath.  I would swap one of the Canonists with a War Priest of Thune which is the strongest creature v. Oath because you can play it Turn 1 off a Cavern and any Mox whereas responding to an emergency turn 1 Oath with True Believer that way would require the Mox to be Mox Pearl or require access to Black Lotus.  War Priest is also going to be more useful if the trend towards running Engineered Plague (naming Human) increases.  With all of the Abrupt Decays, your list can get a lot of mileage out of Eternal Witness and running a copy of him in place of Sin Collector #2 might be worth considering. 

Good luck,

-B