Human Ingenuity

[Demagoguery]

Student of Warfare is an amazing anti-Workshop card as it comes down turn one and can get powered up pretty quickly... Once powered up they don't really have that many answers to it, and in a fight it does beat up the Lodestone Golem without dying. If they opt not to attack you, and you just have time to build up your board, or level up the Student, you can basically out race them.

[Guli]

Student of Warfare is an amazing anti-Workshop card as it comes down turn one and can get powered up pretty quickly... Once powered up they don't really have that many answers to it, and in a fight it does beat up the Lodestone Golem without dying. If they opt not to attack you, and you just have time to build up your board, or level up the Student, you can basically out race them.

Depends on which Workshop it is, but the question is if there is time and resources to do this. I can see a lot of cards shut down Student. Revoker can do this fast and easy, Triskeleon can catch it off guard, Staff of Nin, Arrows, Smokestack, Hellkite, Wurmcoil and even Wire can delay the card since the leveling happens at sorcery speed and white mana is required.

And say all goes well, you will still need the real answers against them. You will need removal to clear the way and take over the board. A couple of Swords are not enough, will need much more, more like a steady steam of removal (see my list: bolts, decays, pridemages, stingscourger, path to exile, artifact mutation, ingot) and deny mana to keep them below 5 mana if possible (wasteland, null rod, revoker).

[Protoaddict]

Student seems great if you can get him out turn 1 and then keep him pumping while denying them mana.
But if you want him turn one against shops you probably want 4 in the deck, and his value drops drastically as the game goes on.

Alternately, Porcelain Legionnaire only requires 2 mana to kill a lodestone, can be cast with colorless, gets in under artifact spheres, etc. He is also creature type soldier which means he does share types with Thalia in a pinch. Overall it seems the more reliable way to go for an anti shops dude.

[Guli]

Student seems great if you can get him out turn 1 and then keep him pumping while denying them mana.
But if you want him turn one against shops you probably want 4 in the deck, and his value drops drastically as the game goes on.

Alternately, Porcelain Legionnaire only requires 2 mana to kill a lodestone, can be cast with colorless, gets in under artifact spheres, etc. He is also creature type soldier which means he does share types with Thalia in a pinch. Overall it seems the more reliable way to go for an anti shops dude.

Porcelain does not kill a Lodestone. It has a combat advantage over it but the sphere still remains. So we should say; porcelain gives the caverns deck some time to find a real solution. His type is not very relevant, it is like Revoker, you can cast it with anything. Sometimes you sandbag a Cavern with Stingscourger in hand against a potential Tinker. If you run enough mana, and play against a non wasteland deck, you can do this. It wouldn't be a bad rule to say: "Don't play a Cavern unless you feel it is necessary". When is it necessary? Well when you see a Chalice, or you really need to bounce something or get a Dark Confidant or Pridemage through. On turn one and game 1 you always want to open with Cavern if you have the mox and Thalia but this is not true if for example you know you aren't playing a force of will deck. You rather want to crack a fetch to get decay online asap. These are things you get to master if you play the deck, and they matter a lot because of the 4 color and sometimes 5 color designs.

[vaughnbros]

Student seems great if you can get him out turn 1 and then keep him pumping while denying them mana.
But if you want him turn one against shops you probably want 4 in the deck, and his value drops drastically as the game goes on.

Thalia and Bob need to hit the table ASAP to maximize their value so you don't want to be dropping student and leveling it in the early game.  Late game there are far better options.

Alternately, Porcelain Legionnaire only requires 2 mana to kill a lodestone, can be cast with colorless, gets in under artifact spheres, etc. He is also creature type soldier which means he does share types with Thalia in a pinch. Overall it seems the more reliable way to go for an anti shops dude.

I don't think the deck is lacking ways to fight a lodestone in combat.  As stated before hand by Brian, mishra's factory is a great way of slowing down lodestone beats while also providing the deck with an additional mana source.

Porcelain does not kill a Lodestone. It has a combat advantage over it but the sphere still remains. So we should say; porcelain gives the caverns deck some time to find a real solution. His type is not very relevant, it is like Revoker, you can cast it with anything. Sometimes you sandbag a Cavern with Stingscourger in hand against a potential Tinker. If you run enough mana, and play against a non wasteland deck, you can do this. It wouldn't be a bad rule to say: "Don't play a Cavern unless you feel it is necessary". When is it necessary? Well when you see a Chalice, or you really need to bounce something or get a Dark Confidant or Pridemage through. On turn one and game 1 you always want to open with Cavern if you have the mox and Thalia but this is not true if for example you know you aren't playing a force of will deck. You rather want to crack a fetch to get decay online asap. These are things you get to master if you play the deck, and they matter a lot because of the 4 color and sometimes 5 color designs.

I'm still not quite sure I understand the reasoning behind cards like stingscourger and pridgemage.  If humans doesn't lack one thing its great utility creatures.  Aether adapt and devout witness are on par or better than those two creatures in most match ups and are humans to boot.

[Guli]

Casting cost of the answer or threat and the timing (when the intended effect will take place: right now or need to untap?) are highly relevant for me.

Biran Demars saod (and I completely agree with him:

It meets the all-important costs-two-mana-or-less criteria. With a 2R casting cost, this card would simply be too expensive for Vintage and would be unplayable. Vintage is so fast that being able to slam these types of 2cc "set up, value creatures" (Dark Confidant, Lotus Cobra, Stoneforge Mystic, Scavanging Ooze etc.) on the first turn with a land and a Mox is an important threshold.

Aether Adept does not have a friendly cost, but I have thought about it many times too. It is a good card, but to really cut it, it just needed to be 1 . Sting is the only 2cc creature with a clear bounce effect. And when you really need it (a bounce) the echo cost is irrelevant. It is important to have access to an uncounterable (naming warrior) out to Tinker turn 1 or Show and Tell. Or a 20/20 Marit. Revealing it with Bob and/or holding it in your hand is not a bad thing, feels a lot like Phantasmal Image but actually bounces the problem.

Qasali Priidemage is an all star beater hitting every match up. I run 1 less Decay but I let 3 Pridemage in to further strengthen Oath and Workshop. The reason was to have an out against a game 1 Hellkite or other big thing that Decay could not handle. Exalted on top of Noble exalted and Mayor boost around makes it much more likely to attack with a 3/2 and 4/3 Thalia or 5/5 Exava.

My problem is not the creatures I am using, my problem is the next:
Jace is so strong that sometimes it does not matter what you are holding. You are dragged in this battle of attrition and you are fighting multiple removal with instants and jace bounces. Dark Confidant, Trinket Mage, Stoneforge Mystic, Sanpcaster Mage and now Young Pyromancer are all great cards to put in front of Jace. Sometimes Humans comes on top, thanks to a quick Exava follow up just before they can recover, but this could also be countered by a lucky charm or topdeck (sensei top is a problem) swords to plowshares.

So I think Caverns is great but the blue Jace Vault decks have all adapted by running more Jace, bolts or swords (or both) with Snapcaster and Y Will. Trinket Mage to find Top or Clamp in some versions. Pyromancer that can get out of hand quickly. Or simply Dark Confidant and keep it alive with or without Jace.

Sometimes I make a joke about running Boseiju, Who Shelters All to make my instants immune too for counter magic. But Decay already has that gladly enough. Why is Decay so good versus Oath? It is certainly not just because it destroys the Oath. It is because their entire setup of fighting your swarm of creatures highly depend on triggering that Oath. Now this new Jund style (with white) deck can fight through a trigger of Oath, Stinger does this. You just keep on playing, your Thalia, Null Rod and wastelands make sure they can't combo out with Griselbrand, and you just bounce and go lethal. Back to Decay, the window or time they have after that first Oath gets hit is almost non existant when Thalia, Dark Confidant, Pridemage are around. Thalia forces them to find something huge (Oath, Show and Tell) because chaining spells is not possible. Or to burn their burning wish to get rid of your wave of creatures. This bounce and keep doing your thing is very similar to the Karakas answer and I think it is very correct and makes the match up interesting. You are still allowing yourself to play your Human game plan because you have access to bouncers.  It relieves the human core of a big responsibility. But my main argument is that Sting also hits Blightsteel Colossus while Karakas does not. It is a choice, an experiment, it pushed me into deep waters and I am trying to maximize the Sting by trying out the Morbid mechanic, using regrowth effects, other die triggers and sacrifice abilities that give you something good.

While trying to put up a good fight against the wizard combo/aggro/control new blue broken decks, the Workshop deck can still put you in the Golem spot. Or the Metalworker spot. You are being confronted with the simple fact that you will lose the game if you don't do something on your turn. Land pass does not work here because you know another threat is inbound and with Metalworker (basically reads double time walk) this is as much as a 'crisis moment' as that turn 1 Tinker. Dead/Gone could be a good card here but the second ability is 3cc, and this could be too late. So I just figured to go Bolts, because they do much more than to answer a turn 1 Metalworker or Dark Confidant. They also can hit Jace and Golem for that matter. Sometimes its bad though, mental misstep and chalice of the void take advantage of the cheap casting cost while keeping the threat they present on board.

So I hope I made myself clear why I am choosing these cards, I am trying to address some specific issues the deck might encounter in this meta game. And this in the most cheapest possible manner, because casting cost matters, tempo matters a lot.

[vaughnbros]

I understand the importance of tempo, but converted mana cost and casting cost are two entirely different things. 

In this deck specifically a 2W human is much easier to cast than a GW cat wizard.  When talking about shops about the only card in magic I want more in my deck than Devout Witness is Viashino Heretic.  Against other decks both have their advantages, Qasali beats harder, but witness is reusable. 

A 1UU human should only be slightly more difficult to cast than a 1R goblin warrior, but also will be uncounterable more often.  Her affect also doubles to be able to bounce your own creatures although I'm not sure how relevant that really is.

I'm not entirely sure what relevance pyromancer and Jace have to this discussion, since I don't have a problem with decay in the deck.  But in my testing with the deck, albeit its different than your build, I never really found myself worried about Jace, and in fact it would more often than not be trapped in their hand due to the mana denial.  As for young pyromancer and bob, if they start getting more popular I would certainly be running izzet staticaster or cunning sparkmage as they just mop the floor with them.

[Guli]

Jace alone is not the problem, it can be handled unless there is a black lotus involved on turn 1.

The problem is the entire package and strategy they follow to beat Human or more general, aggro decks. It is inherently strong and effective and involves killing your threats one by one and sometimes in one go (explosives for example). Now, this can be fought off, if you get strong draws, but it isn't entirely impossible that the damage they do causes so much tempo loss and puts them so much ahead, that you desperately need to topdeck an Exava to swing back into the game. And even Exava doesn't cut it everytime.

So the answer Brian and me had was to run cards that give CA immediately, soon his newest list will be posted here most likely and you can see for yourself. But my problem is that I do not play in his meta, I will be playing in Europe and must take the BoM events into account when designing. The meta Brian is in, seems to me more forgiving to decks not running a whole lot against storm strategies. So he puts these anti combo/storm/oath cards in the SB, in case they pop up. He can successfully use these utility creatures like Trinket, Ranger of Eos, Eternal Witness to get an edge in the attrition war without fearing Oath Combo, Storm Combo or Workshop that much. Eventually Brian decided to run Jace himself, an interesting choice, because the card does act as both removal and card draw. But I am not entirely convinced about this, though he runs a lot acceleration and no high amount of Null Rods, making it possible to go just as broken as any blue deck out there. If I can not find an answer in the Jund+white approach, I will move back to blue and get back 'on track'. But I am not the type to give up so easily so I will pursue the potential solutions in the card pool of the colors I have chosen to play.

I haven't got any problems casting Pridemages because I don't mind Thalia being Force of Willed and the card is not hard to cast without a Cavern. It is strange but Caverns with the typical human core with noble, bob, thalia and mayor actually is set more often to a different type than Human people might think. The only card I really want to push true is Dark Confidant and he happens to be wizard sharing a type with Pridemage. This doesn't mean I don't set Caverns to humans, I mostly do, but setting it to Wizard and get a turn 1 Bob, does not prevent my Humans to come in! The human core fortunately is very easy to cast and this is one of its strengths.

Don't make it that complicated, Sting is cheaper, easier to cast, can come down turn 1 when an emergency arises. The card is there to cut off certain key strategies and to eliminate that route/threat as much as possible. The card is in the deck, it is around, hence it must be taken into consideration by the blue pilot or the show and tell combo player or they just wasted a lot of time and resources only to see it countered by a cheap spell. Being 2 mana and not 3 changes a lot in terms of lines of play. It sometimes means you can cast another threat. All this being said, am I happy with Sting? No I am not, but I find it efficient and the best I got for 2 mana. The day they print a 2cc human that deals with Oath, Tinker and Show and Tell, stinger will go out.

I would run Heretic over Devout in a human list with a significant amount of red. The comparasin to Pridemage is wrong I believe, it should be compared to Ingot and Artifact Mutation. Pridemage is an important card against Oath and Aggro decks. Also, it deals with Stoneforge and Time Vault.

The relevance of Jace I explained in detail, the Pyromancer refers to the wizards in general that are played to make card advantage and protect jace while also finding Time Vault. I am talking about decks like stoneblade, bomberman, some landstill versions, jace vault variations... Pyromancer will probably be yet another version(s). I say versions because it can either have Gush and Lotus Cobra, or it can use skullclamp with Trinket Mage. And running a pinger in response might not be the answer... That card will not be able to fix the match up by any means. The tokens aren't the issue, it is the strategy behind it that must be stopped.

*Edit: If you look closely the deck tries to beat Tinker, Oath, Time Vault strategies while keeping a good game against Workshop decks. The problem are those slower blue aggro control decks (with or without TV) that try to grind you out. A 'crystalline' Human (Hexproof to your early threats) would solve a lot against these decks, because they aren't really in the position to use Pyroclasm, and you can play around or control their Explosives. If their removal/cards/removal/jace/removal/more cards tempo routines are broken, which means if you can keep the board filled early game, they will not be able to control the game. Witness and Revoker can go out, because there will be less need for Jace hate and regrowth effects. Whatever it is, it should be human itself and it should be relevant against Workshop too, not just bolts, plows and jaces. Theros maybe? I an hoping that set will give a lot of goodies for Caverns. Meanwhile I try to manage 

[bax]

...... Theros maybe? I an hoping that set will give a lot of goodies for Caverns. Meanwhile I try to manage 

I hope to see a 1WG Planeswalker that make sense in this archetype

[Vennie]

Probably that will not be in Theros since a variant of Elspeth will be in there (don't know if the one every one is talking about on the source is real or fake, but elspeth was confirmed if not what it did).

[Guli]

There might be the option to use the black Oath in combination with Deathrite Shaman. Deathrite helps casting Pridemage and counters spheres plus Crucible locks. It can also help create asymmetric graveyard situations making sure you are triggering Oath and not the opponent.

+

With Sting, Pridemage, Ingot, Thalia (legend), Deathrite and thanks to the wonderfull removal opponents play these days, the black Oath can be an engine again.

Or not?

[vaughnbros]

So the answer Brian and me had was to run cards that give CA immediately, soon his newest list will be posted here most likely and you can see for yourself. But my problem is that I do not play in his meta, I will be playing in Europe and must take the BoM events into account when designing. The meta Brian is in, seems to me more forgiving to decks not running a whole lot against storm strategies. So he puts these anti combo/storm/oath cards in the SB, in case they pop up. He can successfully use these utility creatures like Trinket, Ranger of Eos, Eternal Witness to get an edge in the attrition war without fearing Oath Combo, Storm Combo or Workshop that much. Eventually Brian decided to run Jace himself, an interesting choice, because the card does act as both removal and card draw. But I am not entirely convinced about this, though he runs a lot acceleration and no high amount of Null Rods, making it possible to go just as broken as any blue deck out there. If I can not find an answer in the Jund+white approach, I will move back to blue and get back 'on track'. But I am not the type to give up so easily so I will pursue the potential solutions in the card pool of the colors I have chosen to play.

This sounds like an entirely different deck.  Jace? Ranger of Eos? Trinket and Witness?  It seems more like a blue control deck at this point with humans as its win con.

I haven't got any problems casting Pridemages because I don't mind Thalia being Force of Willed and the card is not hard to cast without a Cavern. It is strange but Caverns with the typical human core with noble, bob, thalia and mayor actually is set more often to a different type than Human people might think. The only card I really want to push true is Dark Confidant and he happens to be wizard sharing a type with Pridemage. This doesn't mean I don't set Caverns to humans, I mostly do, but setting it to Wizard and get a turn 1 Bob, does not prevent my Humans to come in! The human core fortunately is very easy to cast and this is one of its strengths.

Did you ever think maybe this is the reason you have so much difficulty with the more grindy blue decks?  You are essentially opening up all of the counterspells in their deck by playing non humans and using caverns to cast them instead of your humans. 

Xarthid Necromancer is also an extremely potent weapon against these decks.  Its hard for them to gain board advantage when every creature in deck generates a zombie upon death.  And mother of runes provides you combat superiority and protects you from removal.  These are of course 2 cards that I've been saying are good because of this match up.

The relevance of Jace I explained in detail, the Pyromancer refers to the wizards in general that are played to make card advantage and protect jace while also finding Time Vault. I am talking about decks like stoneblade, bomberman, some landstill versions, jace vault variations... Pyromancer will probably be yet another version(s). I say versions because it can either have Gush and Lotus Cobra, or it can use skullclamp with Trinket Mage. And running a pinger in response might not be the answer... That card will not be able to fix the match up by any means. The tokens aren't the issue, it is the strategy behind it that must be stopped.

Cobra, bob, clique, aven mindcensor, pyromancer and his tokens all die to a pinger as well as many other creatures.  Izzet statisticaster can block factories, trinkets, salvagers, similar to how fiend hunter can.  I've played these decks and I'm not quite sure there is much past this that the other components of your deck can't handle.  If you can shut off critical components of their deck with a single card why not play it?

[vaughnbros]

There might be the option to use the black Oath in combination with Deathrite Shaman. Deathrite helps casting Pridemage and counters spheres plus Crucible locks. It can also help create asymmetric graveyard situations making sure you are triggering Oath and not the opponent.

+

With Sting, Pridemage, Ingot, Thalia (legend), Deathrite and thanks to the wonderfull removal opponents play these days, the black Oath can be an engine again.

Or not?

This seems much better suited for a BUG fish deck than humans.  I'm not quite sure the black oath is really strong enough though.

[Guli]

BUG could use it yes, but they follow a counter/denial strategy with bobs, shamans, ooze and trygon/clique to have power on the board. Humans don't counter (some use misstep but thats it), they try to generate value on the board and use a small package of removal. For the human deck the board is much more important, making Oath more important to a human deck than a bug deck. Oath would be able to bring back every creature that has been countered, bolted, blocked, destroyed or sacrificed for value.

While I find Xarthid Necromancer an interesting card, I much rather have my Dark Confidant, Thalia and Mayor back on the table instead of 2/2 zombies. I know this argument doesn't fully weigh the ups and downs, but my view of the black Oath is that it is there for the long games, to negate the counter/removal strategies against Caverns. It would mean that the deck would shift towards a more controling version, rather than suppressing the opponent with Null Rod. You would have to snipe artifacts with Revoker, Ingot and Pridemage and bring these last two back with Oath.

Here is what I just played against Brian's new grindy blue deck (which is very strong btw) and it performed well:

4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby

4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

2 Oath of Ghouls

3 Stingscourger
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ingot Chewer
3 Deathrite Shaman

2 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt

SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Artifact Mutation
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Extirpate

The Oath does what it has to do, bring back resources lost in the attrition battle.

[brianpk80]

This is the list Guli is referencing. 

Jace Humans

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Eternal Witness
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Null Rod

4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine
3 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Savannah

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt

3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 True Believer
SB: 1 War Priest of Thune
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Mishra's Factory
SB: 1 Wasteland

It's not really a blue control deck or all that different from the Humans deck in the past.  Most of the main elements are still there; the idea was to take advantage of being able to accelerate into Jace to consolidate removal and draw into one card.  This allows running less direct removal that is sometimes dead in hand.  Trinket Mage is not in the list though he wouldn't be an unreasonable inclusion.  With blue so highly represented in the mana base, access to blue instants and sorceries is easier and as a result, the power level of Eternal Witness is extremely high in this shell.  Thalia and Jace together have not been a problem.  Playing smart avoids locking one's self out of relevant plays.   

Oath of Ghouls is a great value engine.  It was amazing even before Qasali Pridemage & Ingot Chewer existed and only gets better with Deathrite Shaman.   

[Guli]

I wonder if I should play the second Exava in the main and the 4th Mayor in the SB game 1.

That Exava is really hard to remove for most decks and comes down with great power in the mid game.


I really like how two minds with similar idea's eventually ended up with two different decks. Nice deck Brian! Will save it and play it online.

[serracollector]

Wouldn't Vexing Devil be a good addition to your Oath of Ghouls deck?  How many times can they sac 4 life for 1 mana before they have to let him sit?  Also wouldn't devout witness be amazing (as well as the other "pitch a card for efx" humans) in this type of build?  Discard my w/e creature, return with Oath etc?  I also think the Oath of Ghouls would be quite amazing with the new Xanthid Necromancer, allowing you to sac w/e human, get a 2/2 zombie, then get the human back?  If your willing to go as high as 4 CC, then Avalanche Riders seems a very good option off the top of my head. Im not sure on stacking rules, but can you let the riders die from not paying echo, then get it back from oath that same turn?  Getting LD and 2 damage in every turn seems like a good "tempo" play, no?

[Guli]

It is just two copies, lets not get overly excited. The card is good and has its role in certain match ups, but never build a deck around it in a meta with grave hate.

Pridemage, Ingot and Sting already offer a lot of value.

You really think this deck has slots for Devils?

[Protoaddict]

Cobra, bob, clique, aven mindcensor, pyromancer and his tokens all die to a pinger as well as many other creatures.  Izzet statisticaster can block factories, trinkets, salvagers, similar to how fiend hunter can.  I've played these decks and I'm not quite sure there is much past this that the other components of your deck can't handle.  If you can shut off critical components of their deck with a single card why not play it?

Staticaster seems damn brilliant, as the list of crap it takes out is really large. Let's not forget it takes out revoker, Empty the warrens tokens, Genesis chamber tokens (if that list takes off), Thalia, a bunch of merfolk and goblins, porcelain legionnaire, unflipped delver, etc, in addition to all the already named cards and it basically wins the mirror.

With enough first strike in your list, it also threatens some theoretical combats, and in a pinch it is a surprise, uncounterable 3 toughness blocker for an incoming blightsteel attack that can buy you the extra turn you need

That is what 1 copy does. Imagine 2 or 3. I think its something worth investigating.

[Guli]

I can certainly see all the benefits, but it would take up slots. In my specific case the cardz that probably has to be cut are Sting or Bolts, but then I have to modify other parts of the deck to have outs to Tinker, Show & Tell and Oath of Druids etc. I mean, yea Sting does nothing against Empty the Warrens and Young Pyromancer, but those cards should be answered by Thalia, your best card against storm strategies. If there is a real need to get rid of tokens, you can always try Trinket Mage for Explosives. As for Bolt, that is my main card to keep myself alive against Metalworker, Dark Confidant and Lodestone Golem/Jace. Every card is in there for a reason and changing up slots would mean changing the entire configuration to still have sufficient slots versus various issues.

I think as for pingers, Stun Sniper is the better card. It can handle big creatures, keep Dark Confidant off the Table and cause serious problems overall for aggro decks.

So the important keyword is again the reach the 'answer' has (or versatility) AND the relevance for Vintage. A huge list of targets may seem very cute, but might also be completely irrelevant within a certain context. But if you do pursue this idea, then you might want to show us a list and how you will handle all the serious challenges Caverns has. I can assure you, this is not blocking factories, or other 2/2's. Pinging a Dark Confidant is very relevant, but that same card needs to adress Metalworker too in my opinion. Lightning Bolt is very good right now for that reason, it solves the early game problems against certain archetypes and pushes you into the mid game. Just like Thalia pushes you in the mid game against storm decks, a place were they don't want to be.

However I do agree on one thing. The Young Pyromancer enables a grow deck, it can spread out the spells over the turns and be fine with it. This is the only context were I can see some sideboard slots for your Staticaster were you also use Staticaster to bring pain to aggro decks. I am not sure if Staticaster is the best sideboard option for that matter, but I can see me siding out 2 Sting for 2 Staticaster in these grindy match ups (grow, aggro and against Landstill). That is, for now, the best I can come up with for Staticaster. If you guys can deliver results and data that shows us Staticaster is way better than it looks, I can reconsider.

[brianpk80]

On the Staticaster, I thought of sideboarding it in the past as a surprise answer to Empty the Warrens but a few things held me back from taking the leap.  Those were the 0 power, inability to damage players/Planeswalkers, the colors (blue and red having typically been the colors with least access), and the fact that in mirrors or quasi-mirrors, you have to kill your own creatures that have the same name.  For example, if you both have Bob in play or both have Noble Hierarchs, the Staticaster kills them all indiscriminately.  It's possible that the Pyromancer could be so popular and dangerous to justify running this guy in addition to or instead of something like Trinket Mage for Explosives.  At the moment, the Pyromancer doesn't concern me too much since it's only highly threatening to Humans when there are multiples or when it's blocking Jace, in which case Jace is the real threat.  Anytime a blue deck passes the turn without playing Tinker, Vault/Key, Jace, Bob, Oath of Druids, Standstill, or Salvagers combo, things should be fine.  Pyromancer is a strong card and definitely can shine against Shops but since it doesn't yield direct card advantage like Bob & Snapcaster, it's less threatening to the Humans.

[Protoaddict]

Just throwing this against the wall here, has anyone tried Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, if only as a 1 of like the bloodwitch?

I know he is costly but he is a 1 sided, cant be countered, sphere of resistance that can also make your stuff cheaper.

[brianpk80]

Just throwing this against the wall here, has anyone tried Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, if only as a 1 of like the bloodwitch?

I know he is costly but he is a 1 sided, cant be countered, sphere of resistance that can also make your stuff cheaper.

He appeared in two lists, one was T8 in Pennsylvania and the other was first place in Australia.  He's a bit expensive but has a lot going for him.  In one memorable game, I used him and Thalia to keep a Crypted Dredge player off Darkblast so he couldn't recover and the X/3 body threatened the remaining Zombie tokens into a stalemate, winning the game for me because he decked himself.  That certainly wasn't what I expected.  I would consider maindecking him again in a heavy Storm meta.  He's better than Glowrider. 

[shrewarmies]

I have played with Grand Arbiter Augustin IV in 3 events (1st/12, 12th/35, 1/2nd/17) and have come to think of the exact opposite. After playing with him and testing with him I have come to find that I just don't want him. He is too expensive for what he does and would much rather Glowrider in that spot. The -1 on your spells I have found to be pretty much irrelevant because the 1 spell I want to be cheaper is Abrupt Decay which is not effected.  by him. The cheaper casting cost of Glowrider (particularly the U in Arbiter) really gives him the edge as you can play Thalia and follow with a Glowrider and a waste effect  to lock your opponent out of the game for long enough to get your engines online and often Arbiter is too slow at that role.

I have cut Arbiter from my current list. Even in a Storm meta I don't think Arbiter is where I want to be at the moment.

[brianpk80]

That's reasonable.  When I ran him, it was mostly for fun & for flavor since you can get away with one or two cards like that and still perform pretty well, though he was very synergistic of course.  I was never a big fan of Glowrider because I think he's too slow without Thalia and the 1 toughness opened us up to mass removal.  The Helm effect of Arbiter is most negligible as you say but the 3 toughness, not affecting your own Moxen/spells, and his effect on opponent's creature's spells were the selling points, as it helps to keep Trinket Mages, Salvagers, Cliques, and other nuisances off the table.   At the moment, I would rate the Human Sphere effects as Thalia > Thorn > Grand Arbiter > Glowrider.  I've switched back to 4 Thalia since the legendary issue is now mitigated w. the new Legend rules.  Additionally, Jace can help shuffle away unwanted copies.  She's also pretty good at protecting him from attacks.  Guli thinks it's blasphemy that the Humans are now aiding and abetting the bad guys like Jace, but we'll see how it goes. 

[Guli]

The only time we use the name Jace in this thread, is to brainstorm for idea's on how to exile/stop/kill/destroy/negate it more efficiently. You sir, have gone to the Dark Side and Jace is your Sith Lord.

[brianpk80]

The only time we use the name Jace in this thread, is to brainstorm for idea's on how to exile/stop/kill/destroy/negate it more efficiently. You sir, have gone to the Dark Side and Jace is your Sith Lord.

It's very traumatic to see the Huntmaster guarding Jace instead of killing him.  Jace is addictive.  Once you start playing him, he just needs to go everywhere, and the Humans accelerate into him very handily and likewise do a good job of protecting him from assaults. 

[Guli]

And then Vraska shows up out of nowere and the Huntmaster can only watch its own inability to protect his Master.

[Guli]

After testing around a bit I made some changes to the 4 color Human Cavern Oath version:

1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
3 City of Brass
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

3 Noble Hierarch
3 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant

3 Oath of Ghouls
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Stingscourger
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ingot Chewer

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Liliana of the Veil

SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Wasteland

While I love Bolts, I think STP is a better choice for a deck packing Oath's. I also found myself with not enough Dr. Shamans, so I added a full playset and supported it with a single Ooze. I also find Liliana interesting for additional removal and the discard can work nice with the black Oath. With stp and liliana around, the number of Sting rounds out at 2 for me. Sting is really strong with an Oath to stall the game when you need to do that.

Also note there is more life gain too overall with more dr shaman, ooze and hutmaster. Good for Dark Confidant.

Sb has a choke now and more Ingot instead of Mutation. Good dredge hate, good Oath hate, seems all fine.

[serracollector]

Since you guys are going for the 4 cc humans, have either of you tried/tested Zur, the Enchanter?  I been testing a version with your main base (4 bob, 4 thalia, 4 mayor, 4 noble) alongside 1-3 Zur and an array of enchantments.  Right now I am down to 4-5 enchantments in the main, but once Zur hits and swings its pretty much GG one way or the other.  He can't be bolted or Abrupt decayed, can block 99% of all dudes played in Vintage including Clique and Trygon, and the enchantments he grabs can't be countered, and if they have to abrupt decay the enchantment, then you're probably gonna win with your dudes.  Anyways the enchantments I have been playing with are these 4-5:

1 Alpha Status
1 Steely Resolve (naming humans obv)
1-2 Stony Silence/Rest in Peace (1-1 split isn't bad unless your playing....)
1 Oath of Ghouls

Adding these 4 enchantments won't hurt your deck by any means, and with a Zur out its like HUGE ca/tempo advantage with any of them hitting playing depending on what your playing vs ofc.
In testing online getting a Zur is almost always game, as I can usually grab Alpha Status, and swing for 10+ damage with 1 guy easily between Exalted and the Alpha Status enchantment. I personally haven't tried Exava yet, but dropping exava, swinging with it and Zur, and getting Alpha Status on either is a descent amount of damage I imagine.  And if you fear lots of Jace, or bolts, or stps etc etc you can always up your steely resolve count, or add in things like Oblivion Ring.  I am sure there might even be a plethora of enchantments I haven't thought of (is Necropotence worth testing? If jace helps Im SURE necro could).  Anyways, I would highly suggest trying Zur even if your only running 2 stony silence, and 1 other enchantment, he is worth it.  Good luck keep up the work.