YMTC 4

[Archae]

The 8 finalists are in, and voting is up until Wednesday night: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/247b

[KIP_NZ]

And on first review they're all a swing and a miss for eternal with only Revenge of Necromancy having a chance of being playable if it's low enough costing.

[Stormanimagus]

Yeah, I have to stay, I was overall disappointed with all 8 choices. They all seem like inelegant cards with obtuse functionality. This is a damn shame, and I think it points to a trend in how Wizards wants to develop the game. Here is what I imagine a pitch meeting might sound like at R & D:

Dev 1: "So what's the next new busted card we are going to print?"

Dev 2:  "Huh, that's hard. That requires imagination."

Dev 1:  "I've got it! Let's do a modal card with effect X and effect Y slapped on it! Done!"

Dev 2:  "Wait. Isn't that strictly better than what came before by far?"

Dev 1:  "Let's. . . ah. . . uh. . . make them pay 2 life. Woot! Done!


I just see them constantly re-inventing the wheel and not even doing THAT that well. Ugh.


-Storm

[evouga]

Consuming Contract could be playable, depending on the value of ____, (for instance, if it tutored it would be pretty spicy), and if aggressively costed.

Double Down seems playable as well. I'm sure it will cost too much to be useful to Dredge, but maybe it will spawn a secondary Bazaar strategy.

Everything else looks pretty disappointing. Blood in the Watering Can and Revenge of Necromancy are probably good in other formats but too slow to do much in Vintage. I have a hard time seeing how Demonic Bargain could end up as anything but a terrible Phyrexian Arena.

[rpf5029]

If they cost it very aggressively, Eldritch Rites could be very good in a deck like Kobold Clamp / Cheerios. 

[Prospero]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/247b

Well, the results are in.  The top 8 designs to vote on in the designer contest are...  lackluster.  As far as I can tell, they are neither powerful, nor elegant, nor simple.  This appears to be careening towards Vanish into Memory, and the brakes just fell off.

Anyway, we can still hope and pray that these cards get costed low enough to be somewhat relevant to Vintage.  Wizards set this up as a vote-on-each-pair scenario, which has very interesting implications for how preferences will get played out.  Dealing with each pair, here's my impressions:

Consuming Contract v. Double Down (Double Down)

Consuming Contract, even at B (it wouldnt be), doesn't seem very exciting in Vintage. It's best mode draws you 2 cards next upkeep.  Planeswalkers have shown us that versatility is important, so the ability to draw 2 or kill some dudes is relevant.  But, when you really want to kill dudes, you don't want to wait till your next upkeep to do so.  On top of that, unless you're running Storm, you probably need a way to kill off the enchantment before it kills you.  Seems pretty narrow.

Double Down, by contrast, could easily be costed low because it's a grave hate card.  It nukes multiples in the yard at instant speed as much as you want, and draws you cards in the process.  Like Rest in Peace, it deals with Dredge once it comes down and afterwards.  This isn't a terrible card and actually could be played in Vintage sideboards if it's cheap.

Blood in the Watering Can v. Mass Mummification (Mass Mummification)

This is a close one.  Blood seems to have a better chance of being printed and being very good in every format other than Vintage.  Oversold Cemetery is B1, I don't see why this couldn't be similar.  Recurring a dude every turn is not bad, and adds card advantage and inevitability would accelerating your demise in suiblack, junk, etc.  Seems solid.

But, in Vintage, I think the Mummy's interaction with all of the ways black turns life into cards -- Necropotence for 12 every turn, anyone?  Bob into Blightsteel, yawn, whatever -- this might actually form the backbone of a powerful engine.  That said, I think it's way worse than Blood in every other format, and if the Lich cards are any indication, WotC will price Mummy at something dumb like 2BBB or above.  Still, because the Mummy's ability, if cheap, may actually be Vintage playable, I'm on board.

Soulfeaster's Rising v. Revenge of Necromancy (Revenge of Necromancy)

These cards are both terrible, win-moar nonsense.  Soulfeaster gives you a dork if you've been killing five of their dorks.  If you've been killing five dorks, you're probably doing pretty well.  I'd rather use that Phyrexian wrath of God from Scars block to wipe the board and get a big dude at once than play a do-nothing card that gives me a dude when I'm winning.

Revenge is also terrible in a discard deck for the same reason Megrim and similar cards are.  By turn 3, you better have stripped your opponent of relevant cards already, or you're dead.  The only reason I would give this the nod over Soulfeaster is that, in Vintage, at least some decks do discard to their own abilities.  So this gives you marginal value there.

Eldritch Rites v. Demonic Bargain (Eldritch Rites)

Not even close.  Eldritch is the single interesting card in the whole group.  With a Gravecrawler, you are potentially recurring alot of cards, and that's not bad.  Yawgwill is restricted but sees play at 2B, giving me hope that Rites might be played at a reasonable cost.

Bargain is worse than Skeletal Scrying.  Pass.

All in all, pretty disappointing.  Very hard to see how one of the few Vintage-playable effects both wins AND gets costed cheap enough to make a splash.  

[Wagner]

I really like Double Down, it could be a potent draw engine and hate card in the control mirrors, or against Dredge, but it probably needs to cost 2, if it costs only 1, Dredge might end up playing it in different formats and that would be a bit worrysome.

[vaughnbros]

So if I'm reading consuming contract correctly it automatically kills you 4 turns after its played?  I would imagine that means that it could realistically be aggressively costed.  Drawing you 2 cards, destroying a lodestone/thalia, and whatever the blank ends up being should be at least decent for a storm deck if it costs 1 or 2 mana.

The only other remotely decent card looks like revenge of the necromancy, great against dredge and combos well with any deck running a decent amount of discard effects, i.e. liliana/duress/hymn/thoughseize.

[Norm4eva]

I don't agree with Revenge of Necromancy drawing comparison to Megrim or a 'win-more' card.  It may not be directed entirely at Vintage, but an aggressively costed RoN seems like it would reward well-named Cabal Therapy plays in a meaningful way - and it auto-combos with itself if you snag a creature (Therapy for their best creature, if it hits you can sac the Zombie token and replay the effect for other cards to reap the other bonus).  As many players are aware, the pitfall of playing too much discard is that ultimately, you end up topdecking more discard while the opponent is sneaking business spells in under the radar.  Turning Thoughtseize/Duress into a cantrip helps with that.

There's also random jank like Mox Diamond which causes the controller to discard, or other similarly costed spells that I can't think of b/c I'm at work and unwilling to spend more time on my break using Gatherer to think of them :/

Having said that, if it ends up costing more than 1B it is probably useless.  The card does nothing on its own, I want it to cost B.  But that would probably never happen.  At any rate, this was the only one that stood out to me as remotely interesting, besides Double Down.

[CHA1N5]

Double Down.

[mmcgeach]

OMG, DOUBLE DOWN.

That is the best of these BY FAR.  Just look at what it does:

1) Draw cards at instant speed for no mana.
2) exile stuff from your opponent's graveyard.
2a) Since the exile is the cost, you CANNOT RESPOND to the exile!

Both of those are PHENOMENAL vintage effects.  Look at how much play Deathrite Shaman gets, and that doesn't even draw cards!  How many cards draw cards for no mana, at instant speed?  Gush, Bargain, Griselbrand?  Those cards are GOOD.

Consider how good this is against dredge: You can exile just about everything they want to play out of the yard, and it doesn't cost you anything to do that.  In fact, you DRAW CARDS for doing this.  It's insane.

Think about it either in or against Oath.  You opponent Oathes, putting a third of his deck into the yard.  You can then draw 5 to 7 to 10 cards!  You're way more likely to draw that flusterstorm or mindbreak trap or echoing truth or whatever you need to answer the oath creature.  It's also possible Double Down could be so good it's maindeckable in Oath.

Now think about using it in the blue control mirror.  It's a mid-game bomb.  You draw 5 to 7 cards and exile a bunch of your opponent's useful stuff: Force, Gush, Accumulated Knowledge, Lands, etc.  Since a lot of decks run the same restricted cards, its totally possible to exile your opponent's lotus or ancestral just when they try to recur it.  Some blue decks already maindeck a nihil spellbomb.  This could easily take that slot.

The main effect of this card must be to draw cards, tho.  And it does draw a potentially unlimited number of cards. This MUST have combo potential.  Any kind of combo deck that includes discard makes this a possible combo engine.  Maybe in welder-jar builds.  Or wheel / windfall / whispering madness builds.  Think about the possible interaction with welder: you can put exactly the artifact your opponent needs to have in the yard in the yard, exile it, and draw.  It's not a game breaking interaction, but it's elegant and cute. 

This says nothing of new combos that could be enabled by a card like this, which I think we have to consider a possibility when a card like Double Down comes around, since its effect is so strong, nearly free, and so unusual.  It's possible it could work with zombie infestation.  In another thread, people speculated about Dangerous Wager, Zombie Infestation, Blood Scrivener, and draw-7's.  Could even work with Sire of Insanity.

Double Down has the potential to draw at least one card in just about any matchup just off fetch lands.  That makes it a maindeck candidate.

I do think it's unlikely to be good against workshops.  I mean, its possible you could exile a couple wastelands, or draw off your own Smokestack detritus, but those seem pretty fringe.

And lastly, consider what must be its intended home: black decks running discard and Liliana of the Veil.  Double Down surely synergizes with the discard effects run in suicide black decks or dark depths decks.  These have been decks that ran Bob as their draw engine; but that have actually skipped yawgmoth's will because it is not usually gamebreaking.  Double Down could easily go alongside bob and give the dark times deck value from its graveyard, which has been previously difficult to leverage in that archetype.

The best part about this card is that it's likely to have a pretty low mana cost.  I could see it between {b} and {b}{b}{b}.  It takes so long to set up and be good in other formats that the card does almost nothing on its own.  That could mean it's a turn one, one-mana play.  In vintage, of course, this card would be crazy because literally every deck uses the graveyard for something, and some of them fill the yard extremely quickly.

I would literally play this in every deck that could easily cast it.

[mmcgeach]

Also: don't be fooled by that Consuming Contract crap.  I know it says "you lose the game" on it, but that doesn't make it a good black card.  The other abilities are terrible and/or boring.  That blank space for an ability will probably get it vote up.  But how good would that ability have to be?  demonic tutor?  yawgmoth's will?  These aren't realistic possibilities if the other two are "kill a creature" and "draw two cards next turn".

[vaughnbros]

Also: don't be fooled by that Consuming Contract crap.  I know it says "you lose the game" on it, but that doesn't make it a good black card.  The other abilities are terrible and/or boring.  That blank space for an ability will probably get it vote up.  But how good would that ability have to be?  demonic tutor?  yawgmoth's will?  These aren't realistic possibilities if the other two are "kill a creature" and "draw two cards next turn".

Vampiric is extremely likely to be that blank spot since its during your upkeep and pretty much the only black ability other than discard that isnt on the card so far.

OMG, DOUBLE DOWN.

I would literally play this in every deck that could easily cast it.

I don't really understand the hype on this card.  The two cards you exile need to be of the same name.  You'd be lucky to get a card or 2 out of it unless your playing against dredge.  By using it you create anti synergy with yawg will/snapcaster/goyf/deathrite and a number of other good black cards.  Its also terrible in multiples.  The only decent thing is that it is slightly less dead than other dredge hate cards of its power level.  This is a singleton in the main of UBx control decks at most.

[mmcgeach]

I don't really understand the hype on this card. 

Well, I listed like 10 reasons pretty cogently.  I guess we can agree to disagree.

...anti synergy with yawg will/snapcaster/goyf/deathrite and a number of other good black cards.

Well, think of it this way.  Which would you rather do:

1. Have your opponent hit you with a large tarmogoyf, or draw cards?
2. Have your opponent get value from his snapcasters, or draw cards?
3. Have your opponent get value from his deathrite shaman, or draw cards?
4. Get blown out by your opponent's yawgmoth's will, or draw cards?

The point isn't just that it's very good because vintage decks abuse their graveyard, and thus grave hate is main-deckable in a number of archetypes, but that it lets you draw potentially many cards while doing that, advancing your own game plan and combo potential.

[vaughnbros]

I don't really understand the hype on this card. 

Well, I listed like 10 reasons pretty cogently.  I guess we can agree to disagree.

You're only highlighting the good parts of the card though not actually evaluating its expected effect on the game.

...anti synergy with yawg will/snapcaster/goyf/deathrite and a number of other good black cards.

Well, think of it this way.  Which would you rather do:

1. Have your opponent hit you with a large tarmogoyf, or draw cards?
2. Have your opponent get value from his snapcasters, or draw cards?
3. Have your opponent get value from his deathrite shaman, or draw cards?
4. Get blown out by your opponent's yawgmoth's will, or draw cards?

The point isn't just that it's very good because vintage decks abuse their graveyard, and thus grave hate is main-deckable in a number of archetypes, but that it lets you draw potentially many cards while doing that, advancing your own game plan and combo potential.

I can't reliably use this card in any of those situations though and I'd rather be playing any of those cards over this regardless of what my deck's strategy is.

The card has a very high volatility to it.  It can go from doing nothing to winning the game for you, which is why I said its easy to assume that on average it will draw you a card or two.

[MaximumCDawg]

Yeah, look, compared to some of the other cards, Double Down at least might have a PLAYABLE EFFECT in Vintage.  That doesn't mean it's very good. 

(1) It helps hose Dredge and protect itself.  This is its primary purpose, and that's a glimmer of hope.

(2) In other contexts, it is a draw engine that is hosed by yard hate.  Fortunately, there is no yard hate in Vintage.  Oh wait...

[DubDub]

Since a lot of decks run the same restricted cards, its totally possible to exile your opponent's lotus or ancestral just when they try to recur it. 

So the situation is what exactly?  Each player's Ancestral Recall is in their respective graveyard, I've resolved Double Down, opponent plays Snapcaster whose ability targets Ancestral... and GOTCHA, DIDN'T SEE THAT  ENCHANTMENT ON MY SIDE, FOOL?

I mean... are you casting your Ancestral in response to the trigger?

[mmcgeach]

Yeah, look, compared to some of the other cards, Double Down at least might have a PLAYABLE EFFECT in Vintage. 

exactly!

(2) In other contexts, it is a draw engine that is hosed by yard hate.  Fortunately, there is no yard hate in Vintage.  Oh wait...

It depends on what kind of yard hate.  I think this is only really shut down by leyline and rest in peace; otherwise the ability to exile the cards as the cost of the draw gets around stuff like crypt, surgical extraction, rav trap, etc.  But sure, if you had a hypothetical combo deck built around this card, then yeah, graveyard hate would be effective against you.

So the situation is what exactly?  Each player's Ancestral Recall is in their respective graveyard, I've resolved Double Down, opponent plays Snapcaster whose ability targets Ancestral... and GOTCHA, DIDN'T SEE THAT  ENCHANTMENT ON MY SIDE, FOOL?

I mean... are you casting your Ancestral in response to the trigger?

Sure, that would work. And that actually seems like a pretty good play. 

Or you could sac your lotus in response to bomberman bringing his lotus back with salvagers. Or you could just eat both your ancestrals in response to your opponent's yawg will.  With snapcaster it seems less effective, since people usually snap-back restricted cards, in my experience.  But frequently counterspells, too; it's quite likely that there's two missteps in graveyards.  That might be an actual play.

The more I think about it, the stronger this seems in a blue mirror.  There's frequently a lot of missteps, preordains, mana drains, forces, fetch lands, and gushes in graveyards.  I bet Double Down draws on average three cards by turn three in blue-vs-blue.  That combined with the ability to randomly blow out your opponent's graveyard recursion at the opportune moment makes this a really excellent card.  And, of course, the splash hate in other matchups.

[HappyNewyear]

Mass Mummification might be an interesting choice (if efficiently costed) in a Dark Times build.  It would have to have some way of not losing (Lich, Angel's Grace), but it may provide the deck a second out instead of Dark Depths.

[xouman]

Double down seems meh in a format with so many singletons, but still it has potential before looking its CC cost. The fact that both graves are considered looking for double card is vital in control pairings, improving chances of get the effect.

Against non-dredge, non-mirror matches, it's probably poor, unless its CC is 1 or 2.

[mmcgeach]

Heh.  I'm loving Double Down.

I'm glad we agree it's great against dredge.  But you gotta give me oath, too, right?  If your opponent oaths, how many cards are you going to draw?  A potentially huge number.  Also we'd have to include Burning Long, too.  That deck runs Oath.  And that deck runs wheel / jar / windfall, which loads that yard.  So that's a matchup where Double Down would be great.

So matchups where Double Down draws more than a few cards are:

1) dredge
2) oath
3) burning long

But basically any deck with wheel / jar / windfall is good too, right?  So that makes:

1) dredge
2) oath
3) burning long
4) you (or opponent) plays wheel / jar / windfall

and we've already talked about the mirror.  Any time you and your opponent are playing similar cards and the game goes more than a few turns, Double Down is gonna be really strong.  But really, it's strong any time the match goes long, assuming one of the decks isn't literally a highlander deck.

1) dredge
2) oath
3) burning long
4) you (or opponent) plays wheel / jar / windfall
5) mirror matches lasting more than a few turns
6) any match lasting several turns, w/o highlander decks

Also I think we've learned from deathrite shaman that wasteland is a great graveyard feeder.  So I suggest that a deck running wastelands gets value from Double Down.

Good Double Down matchups:

1) dredge
2) oath
3) burning long
4) you (or opponent) plays wheel / jar / windfall
5) mirror matches lasting more than a few turns
6) any match lasting several turns, w/o highlander decks
7) any deck running wastelands

You know, tho, I'm starting to think it's easier to list decks this isn't good either in or against.  Shops, for sure, I give you that.  Unless you're running wastelands yourself, in which case I think the total number of wastelands leads to a healthy graveyard.  What's left: highlander blue control, wasteland-less fish aggro?  Games that end long before the graveyard gets filled.

Bad Double Down matchups:

1) Shops, unless you're running wastelands
2) wasteland-less fish
3) highlander blue control
4) games ending in under three turns, that didn't use the graveyard explicitly


I mean, cards that have this much use across the format don't come around that often.  What was the last one?  Snapcaster Mage?  Mental Misstep?  Jace?  You've gotta agree that this better than other options from You Make The Card.

[evouga]

The problem with Double Down is that I don't think there's a prayer R&D will price it at anything south of 2BB, since otherwise it becomes too good in Standard mill decks. And the effect is not worth 4 mana in Vintage.

[Biscuit]

I think everyone is drastically underestimating Consuming Contract, especially if it has an aggressive mana cost (like B, BB, or 1B).  This card could be good against both workshops and blue decks as a maindeck card, especially if the last ability is a vampiric tutor.    It could even potentially lead to new deck types, such as something with perilous research.  A deck could be constructed to maximize it's power and put the opponent on a 3 turn clock.  The versatility would be insane, like a 2 mana planeswalker.   Who cares if you lose in 4 turns if it provides the power to win on the third?  
       I also don't like the idea of printing another hate card (as I don't know how maindeckable Double Down would be).   I think it's efficacy against oath and some other archetypes besides dredge seem dubious.  In many situations, who cares if you draw a few cards off the oathing (which isn't even guaranteed) when they get a Griselbrand?  The possibilities for Consuming Contract are so much more exciting and it will get my vote.

[MaximumCDawg]

I think everyone is drastically underestimating Consuming Contract, especially if it has an aggressive mana cost (like B, BB, or 1B).  This card could be good against both workshops and blue decks as a maindeck card, especially if the last ability is a vampiric tutor.    It could even potentially lead to new deck types, such as something with perilous research.  A deck could be constructed to maximize it's power and put the opponent on a 3 turn clock.  The versatility would be insane, like a 2 mana planeswalker.   Who cares if you lose in 4 turns if it provides the power to win on the third?  
       I also don't like the idea of printing another hate card (as I don't know how maindeckable Double Down would be).   I think it's efficacy against oath and some other archetypes besides dredge seem dubious.  In many situations, who cares if you draw a few cards off the oathing (which isn't even guaranteed) when they get a Griselbrand?  The possibilities for Consuming Contract are so much more exciting and it will get my vote.

I disagree.  Contract could easily be amazing if the mystery ability is something broken, like a tutor, or a wasteland effect or something, but how likely is that to happen?  Probably it's going to be "put a 2/2 zombie into play" or something trivial like that.  

If you wanted to break Contract, what you'd need is something that can reset it each turn so you can get mad value out of it.  Consider a hatebear that works against shops like this for example:

WG. 2/2

"At the beginning of your upkeep, exile target artifact or enchantment.  Return it to the battlefield at the beginning of  your next turn."

That'd make it playable.

The problem with Double Down is that I don't think there's a prayer R&D will price it at anything south of 2BB, since otherwise it becomes too good in Standard mill decks. And the effect is not worth 4 mana in Vintage.

First off, non-combo mill is a terrible life choice to begin with.  That archetype could use a little power up.  Second, if you're milling 4 - 6 cards at a time, you're really not going to be drawing excessively.  Third, remember this is a do-nothing on its own.  At B it's attractive, at BB it's fair.  Anything more is just putting it into the junk rare bin.

Now, "Whenever a player puts a card from his library into his graveyard, draw a card" would be busted in standard.  This thing aint.

[evouga]

Mill does typically suck, but once you add "draw two cards" to your mill spells and "draw three cards" to Jace's 0 ability, you start to have a reasonable engine.

[MaximumCDawg]

WELP nevermind about Vintage playability.  Double Down lost the votes and Eldritch Rites got mysteriously disqualified, so we're left with total garbage. 

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/248b

[vaughnbros]

WELP nevermind about Vintage playability.  Double Down lost the votes and Eldritch Rites got mysteriously disqualified, so we're left with total garbage. 

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/248b

If consuming contract is cheap enough it should be playable.  Although I highly doubt any of these would have been costed aggressively enough.

[racetraitor]

If the wording on Revenge of Necromancy stays the same it would be pretty sweet with draw-7's like Wheel of Fortune and Windfall. But even if they make it cheap enough, that's probably win-more.

[MaximumCDawg]

WELP nevermind about Vintage playability.  Double Down lost the votes and Eldritch Rites got mysteriously disqualified, so we're left with total garbage. 

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/248b

If consuming contract is cheap enough it should be playable.  Although I highly doubt any of these would have been costed aggressively enough.

It's hard to say because you need to know what the third mode is going to be.  If the third mode is a tutor or sinkhole, then maybe it's a thing if costed at B or 1B.  But, you just know they're going to do something like "drain life for 2" or some jazz.

If the wording on Revenge of Necromancy stays the same it would be pretty sweet with draw-7's like Wheel of Fortune and Windfall. But even if they make it cheap enough, that's probably win-more.

I really, really don't see it.  Revenge smells like a strictly worse Geth's Grimoire and seems like it would be bad at almost any cost just like Megrim.

[vaughnbros]

WELP nevermind about Vintage playability.  Double Down lost the votes and Eldritch Rites got mysteriously disqualified, so we're left with total garbage. 

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/248b

If consuming contract is cheap enough it should be playable.  Although I highly doubt any of these would have been costed aggressively enough.

It's hard to say because you need to know what the third mode is going to be.  If the third mode is a tutor or sinkhole, then maybe it's a thing if costed at B or 1B.  But, you just know they're going to do something like "drain life for 2" or some jazz.

They won't put ld on it I guarantee you that.  After thinking about it by adding tutor to it you can find a way to remove it or combo with it so it would need to be a high mana cost. 

Imo at B or 1B even with no other ability at all this is still good.  Ritual into this, and a duress turn 1 is a beating.  Just run repeal and/or claim to prevent the you lose ability from killing you.