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Author Topic: Winter Orb Stax  (Read 8109 times)
Djinn695
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« on: June 12, 2013, 04:13:58 am »

http://deckstats.net/decks/4622/18187-winter-orb

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Rishadan Port
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland

Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Smokestack
1 Sol Ring
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
3 Winter Orb

Creatures
3 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker

I'm looking for some feedback on what you guys think about the list. You can look at some random 7 card hands on the link above.
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msg67183
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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2013, 06:03:30 am »

I'm not sure if this list is "strong enough" right now. What do you do against a turn 1 Jace? A turn 1 Show and Tell? There is no Revoker, no Metamorph for protection. Also from what I have seen, Port is outdated and Metalworker is "bad" due to Fish decks playing Rods or Stony Silence as well as the rise of Bolt and Swords to Plowshares.
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Djinn695
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2013, 06:57:15 am »

There are ways around a turn one Jace (lotus, land, Jace). What if metal worker resolves on my turn one after the Jace...My hand will drop next turn hopefully giving me some board advantage to deal with it. A turn one metal worker is much more likely than a turn one Jace. Jace is pretty hard for any deck to deal with turn one, although shop versions that run Revoker have an easier time with it. I was thinking of fitting in either Revorkers or pinthing needles and metamorphs but i couldn't find the room. Any suggestions on what to cut out?
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Bill Copes
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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2013, 08:48:32 am »

Are the Smokestacks and Crucibles really necessary if you're keeping all of their mana tapped down?

Suggestions:
-4 Smokestack
-3 Crucible of Worlds

+4 Phyrexian Metamorph
+3 Phyrexian Revoker

Metamorphs clone tangle wires, which is probably necessary for this plan to work.  In lieu of the clock, you may want to swap Karns for Null rods, meta pending.

Do you mind explaining your deck further?  Why would we play this over current choices?
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2013, 12:33:51 pm »

Another important thing to consider is that, in Vintage, due to moxen being a thing, many players won't NEED to untap more than 1 land a turn to keep things rolling. Just keep that in mind.

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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2013, 12:53:06 pm »

If you really want Winter Orb you probably also want Null Rod. If you want Null Rod, you probably don't want Metalworker.
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Djinn695
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2013, 02:08:42 pm »

Chalice on 0 really keeps control of the Mox game. Maybe they will have 1 to 2 Moxe's out before a chalice hits board. Smoke Stack may not be necessary and probably really slow in this deck your correct metamoprh's swap will be useful. However crucible helps with the mana denial maybe add 3 expedition maps, the maps will help with finding the strip for the lock, finding the workshop/Tolarian A. to be okay with the orb in play. or finding the Rishandan Port to combo with the orb. The whole combo works as planned: the deck runs 12 sphere effects (4 Sphere of R, 2 Thorn, and 4 Golem, 1 Trin) my probability of drawing one of  these effects turn 1 is 75%. Hopefully after that i can land a chalice for 0 wait for them to be tapped out or force them with tangle wire (which ever comes first) than play the winter orb. while the orb is on board having a sphere effect and a port completely locks them out of the game. The only land that untaps to orb becomes tapped to port on their upkeep letting them drop one untapped land a turn that they can play from their hand. This will give me the opportunity to draw more threats and gain tempo on the match. Double sphere effect makes it almost impossible for them to play a spell
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credmond
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2013, 02:12:15 pm »

I would probably cut 2 winter orbs (keeping one), add an Orb of Dreams, and go with Null Rod (metalworker comes out) and keep the cruci and smokey plan for maximum mana screw. Winter orb fits the plan, but isn't strong enough to be THE plan (and so you really don't need it as a 3 of). Orb of dreams gives a similar effect and if you get both out its really brutal.

I would mix in some number of mishra's factory to help deal with the jace problem but otherwise just let the turn 1 Jace or other blowouts go as an occasional loss.
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davelin
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2013, 02:21:59 pm »

Chalice on 0 really keeps control of the Mox game. Maybe they will have 1 to 2 Moxe's out before a chalice hits board. Smoke Stack may not be necessary and probably really slow in this deck your correct metamoprh's swap will be useful. However crucible helps with the mana denial maybe add 3 expedition maps, the maps will help with finding the strip for the lock, finding the workshop/Tolarian A. to be okay with the orb in play. or finding the Rishandan Port to combo with the orb. The whole combo works as planned: the deck runs 12 sphere effects (4 Sphere of R, 2 Thorn, and 4 Golem, 1 Trin) my probability of drawing one of  these effects turn 1 is 75%. Hopefully after that i can land a chalice for 0 wait for them to be tapped out or force them with tangle wire (which ever comes first) than play the winter orb. while the orb is on board having a sphere effect and a port completely locks them out of the game. The only land that untaps to orb becomes tapped to port on their upkeep letting them drop one untapped land a turn that they can play from their hand. This will give me the opportunity to draw more threats and gain tempo on the match. Double sphere effect makes it almost impossible for them to play a spell

How are you reliably tapping their one land under winter orb?  Chalice shuts down your ability to put out moxen as well.
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Djinn695
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2013, 02:28:30 pm »

I tested a bunch of games against Grixis Control (one of my worst watch up's post side board) while he had sided boarded 4 Ingot chewers 2 Pinthing needles and 1 of the guys who eats artifacts and you take damage equal to the casting cost (forgive me I do not know how to spell his name) I found in my opening hand if i had a chalice and did not drop one of my own moxe's the winter orb win combo was not as strong so i took a different route trying to win with smoke stack and crucible or golem clock or karn. Usually i drop a mox or two before setting chalice on board.
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MTGFan
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« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2013, 12:03:36 pm »

Winter Orb is one of those cards that seems to be alot better in Legacy than Vintage, primarily because of all of the cheap artifact mana being used in the latter format.

In Legacy the only threat to the Orb's lockdown are basically mana dorks that a few decks run. Hardly anyone plays with artifact mana in Legacy outside of the occasional Mox Diamond in a Loam deck.

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madmanmike25
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2013, 02:56:44 pm »

I don't agree that Rishadan Port is outdated, but it seems really bad in combination with a Winter Orb themed deck.  If you don't have a mox or Metalworker, then tapping two of your lands to tap one of your opponents isn't effective.  If Orb stays in, those Ports could become Factories.

Is Winter Orb even a viable option in Vintage?  I would flat out say no because there are better options, but it isn't a "bad" card I suppose.
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2013, 03:19:59 pm »

I don't agree that Rishadan Port is outdated, but it seems really bad in combination with a Winter Orb themed deck.  If you don't have a mox or Metalworker, then tapping two of your lands to tap one of your opponents isn't effective.  If Orb stays in, those Ports could become Factories.

Is Winter Orb even a viable option in Vintage?  I would flat out say no because there are better options, but it isn't a "bad" card I suppose.

Mox + Port isn't the worst plan, but I probably wouldn't be on it. Again, if I was going to force Orb, I'd also force Null Rod. I don't think Port is effective here. Tangle Wire is the card I'd want, and I'd likely supplement it with 3 Metamorph's. I'm just not sure how much I want to play that style of deck.
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Twaun007
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2013, 03:26:42 pm »

Why haven't you guys teamed these two together?

and

Then you could cut the metal worker and build a Terra Nova style deck.

Just a thought...
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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2013, 04:46:10 pm »

Why haven't you guys teamed these two together?

and

Then you could cut the metal worker and build a Terra Nova style deck.

Just a thought...

er Terra Nova plans to attack with Manlands. Only untapping one Manland seems unfun.

Oh, er your links are not working Sad
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2013, 06:40:54 pm »

These 2 orbs + welders, bazaars, and tangles seems like it could work.
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msg67183
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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2013, 07:06:46 pm »

Why haven't you guys teamed these two together?

and

Then you could cut the metal worker and build a Terra Nova style deck.

Just a thought...

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Kotch
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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2013, 06:01:17 pm »

I successfully played Winter Orb in MUD in 2007, in a Metaworker built, with 3 Rishadan Ports, and 2 Icy Manipulators. These Manipulators could tap Colossus, lands and Winter Orb EOT to have no drawback effect. But I doubt Winter Orb is powerfull nowadays...
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saspook
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2013, 11:04:56 am »

I successfully played Winter Orb in MUD in 2007, in a Metaworker built, with 3 Rishadan Ports, and 2 Icy Manipulators. These Manipulators could tap Colossus, lands and Winter Orb EOT to have no drawback effect. But I doubt Winter Orb is powerfull nowadays...

Winter Orb is very good with Tangle Wire under the new rules, as you can tap it as one of the permanents with no drawback.
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dalek
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« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2013, 06:29:50 pm »

Kotch what does tap winter orb with no drawback mean?

Has anyone ever tried static orb?

I have tried static and orb of dreams and found they do just as much damage to me.  Trouble is if you can't follow it up u r dead.  It's not like the old stablemates of tanglewire and chalice and some sphere that can hit your opponent with more effect.

Mtg fan, never thought about it before but in legacy it does sound fun.  Ever tried it?
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2013, 09:13:05 pm »

Kotch what does tap winter orb with no drawback mean?

Has anyone ever tried static orb?

I have tried static and orb of dreams and found they do just as much damage to me.  Trouble is if you can't follow it up u r dead.  It's not like the old stablemates of tanglewire and chalice and some sphere that can hit your opponent with more effect.

Mtg fan, never thought about it before but in legacy it does sound fun.  Ever tried it?


Static orb doesn't seem like it would be completely terrible if you combo it with Lodestone myr or an icy manipulator effect.  I don't think you would need orb of dreams as tanglewire should be sufficient enough to keep them locked down.
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« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2013, 12:19:57 pm »

Kotch what does tap winter orb with no drawback mean?

Has anyone ever tried static orb?

I have tried static and orb of dreams and found they do just as much damage to me.  Trouble is if you can't follow it up u r dead.  It's not like the old stablemates of tanglewire and chalice and some sphere that can hit your opponent with more effect.

Mtg fan, never thought about it before but in legacy it does sound fun.  Ever tried it?


If i recall tapping orb used to shut it off.
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dalek
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« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2013, 06:03:37 pm »

That is what I thought they meant.  But I checked and I believe the current rules are that it is in effect regardless of whether tapped or not.
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Samoht
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« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2013, 06:32:12 pm »

That is what I thought they meant.  But I checked and I believe the current rules are that it is in effect regardless of whether tapped or not.

Which is why he used the past tense.
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