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Author Topic: Best Landstlll hate for Shop decks?  (Read 6020 times)
MTGFan
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« on: June 25, 2013, 01:11:38 pm »

I play shops of all kind, and am wondering, if you really want to beat a Landstill deck, what is the best way to do so? Say I want to have 4 dedicated SB slots to beating Landstill and don't care if that hate is narrow and doesn't apply to any other matchup.

What can I play under these circumstances? In some of my shop decks, I also have access to blue mana, so blue suggestions would be great too, as long as it's only a single blue mana to cast. Right now I'm trying out 4 Spell Pierce in the SB of my blue shop decks, but also want a potential mono-colored artifact solution.
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« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2013, 01:18:48 pm »

I play shops of all kind, and am wondering, if you really want to beat a Landstill deck, what is the best way to do so? Say I want to have 4 dedicated SB slots to beating Landstill and don't care if that hate is narrow and doesn't apply to any other matchup.

What can I play under these circumstances? In some of my shop decks, I also have access to blue mana, so blue suggestions would be great too, as long as it's only a single blue mana to cast. Right now I'm trying out 4 Spell Pierce in the SB of my blue shop decks, but also want a potential mono-colored artifact solution.


Spell Pierce will do next to nothing against them and it will dilute your deck's main strengths being shops.

Here are the two cards that I would consider first:

1. Crucible Of Worlds
2. Mutavault + Mishra's Factory x4 each.

That is the fundamentally best way to compete with Landstill. Do what they do better than they do it.

-Storm
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2013, 01:23:50 pm »

I play shops of all kind, and am wondering, if you really want to beat a Landstill deck, what is the best way to do so? Say I want to have 4 dedicated SB slots to beating Landstill and don't care if that hate is narrow and doesn't apply to any other matchup.

What can I play under these circumstances? In some of my shop decks, I also have access to blue mana, so blue suggestions would be great too, as long as it's only a single blue mana to cast. Right now I'm trying out 4 Spell Pierce in the SB of my blue shop decks, but also want a potential mono-colored artifact solution.


Spell Pierce will do next to nothing against them and it will dilute your deck's main strengths being shops.

Here are the two cards that I would consider first:

1. Crucible Of Worlds
2. Mutavault + Mishra's Factory x4 each.

That is the fundamentally best way to compete with Landstill. Do what they do better than they do it.

-Storm

QFT.

Pithing Needle is another solid card as it stops Jace and Engineered Explosives.
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2013, 07:09:06 pm »

I play shops of all kind, and am wondering, if you really want to beat a Landstill deck, what is the best way to do so? Say I want to have 4 dedicated SB slots to beating Landstill and don't care if that hate is narrow and doesn't apply to any other matchup.

What can I play under these circumstances? In some of my shop decks, I also have access to blue mana, so blue suggestions would be great too, as long as it's only a single blue mana to cast. Right now I'm trying out 4 Spell Pierce in the SB of my blue shop decks, but also want a potential mono-colored artifact solution.


Spell Pierce will do next to nothing against them and it will dilute your deck's main strengths being shops.

Here are the two cards that I would consider first:

1. Crucible Of Worlds
2. Mutavault + Mishra's Factory x4 each.

That is the fundamentally best way to compete with Landstill. Do what they do better than they do it.

-Storm
On paper tths works. But after sb landstill has 4 chewer and possibly heretic and/or welder. Last TDG event I lost in the finals to merfolk, but in the top 8 I played against tera nova (a deck designed to fight landstill). And I lost game 1 but then won the back 2 games because after sb I have more routes to victory...

Best way to beat it is an updated espresso list heavy on crucibles and stax and maybe sb needles. But if the landstill player is on ancient grudge in the URg build it won't matter lol...

I am more afraid of espresso then I am tera nova. Problem with nova is it doesn't have enough game ending bombs...
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2013, 07:52:46 pm »

I play shops of all kind, and am wondering, if you really want to beat a Landstill deck, what is the best way to do so? Say I want to have 4 dedicated SB slots to beating Landstill and don't care if that hate is narrow and doesn't apply to any other matchup.

What can I play under these circumstances? In some of my shop decks, I also have access to blue mana, so blue suggestions would be great too, as long as it's only a single blue mana to cast. Right now I'm trying out 4 Spell Pierce in the SB of my blue shop decks, but also want a potential mono-colored artifact solution.


Spell Pierce will do next to nothing against them and it will dilute your deck's main strengths being shops.

Here are the two cards that I would consider first:

1. Crucible Of Worlds
2. Mutavault + Mishra's Factory x4 each.

That is the fundamentally best way to compete with Landstill. Do what they do better than they do it.

-Storm
On paper tths works. But after sb landstill has 4 chewer and possibly heretic and/or welder. Last TDG event I lost in the finals to merfolk, but in the top 8 I played against tera nova (a deck designed to fight landstill). And I lost game 1 but then won the back 2 games because after sb I have more routes to victory...

Best way to beat it is an updated espresso list heavy on crucibles and stax and maybe sb needles. But if the landstill player is on ancient grudge in the URg build it won't matter lol...

I am more afraid of espresso then I am tera nova. Problem with nova is it doesn't have enough game ending bombs...

I agree that Espresso is a stronger deck when built with Rods and Needles. Smokestack is very well positioned right now.
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2013, 08:07:19 pm »



Crucible, but if you really want pinpoint hate I'd say Tsabo's Web.  

Tsabo's Web makes it impossible for them to kill you with Factories, ties up their mana.  Etc.  

It won't stop Jace ultimate, but can definitely buy you time.  Needle will stop Jace, but doesn't draw a card.

Tsabo's Web is really good with Tangle Wires, since it Back to Basics their Wastelands and Factories as well -- not to mention Fetchlands if they don't use them. 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 08:13:13 pm by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2013, 12:12:55 pm »



Crucible, but if you really want pinpoint hate I'd say Tsabo's Web.  

Tsabo's Web makes it impossible for them to kill you with Factories, ties up their mana.  Etc.  

It won't stop Jace ultimate, but can definitely buy you time.  Needle will stop Jace, but doesn't draw a card.

Tsabo's Web is really good with Tangle Wires, since it Back to Basics their Wastelands and Factories as well -- not to mention Fetchlands if they don't use them. 

I tried Web and while it does an admirable job of slowing their Factory ground attack, and it is a cantrip and thus nets you card advantage if they try to remove it...

it just doesn't seem to do enough against the deck as a whole. It only turns off Factories, Academy Ruins (if they play it), and Wasteland (if they are tapping it for mana). That just isn't enough. I've lost to Landstill with Web in play when they destroy my Golems with Bolt and/or Chewer, and then just overwhelm with card advantage and end up killing with Jace or just removing the Web after sculpting a perfect hand.

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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2013, 01:46:07 pm »



Crucible, but if you really want pinpoint hate I'd say Tsabo's Web.  

Tsabo's Web makes it impossible for them to kill you with Factories, ties up their mana.  Etc.  

It won't stop Jace ultimate, but can definitely buy you time.  Needle will stop Jace, but doesn't draw a card.

Tsabo's Web is really good with Tangle Wires, since it Back to Basics their Wastelands and Factories as well -- not to mention Fetchlands if they don't use them. 

I tried Web and while it does an admirable job of slowing their Factory ground attack, and it is a cantrip and thus nets you card advantage if they try to remove it...

it just doesn't seem to do enough against the deck as a whole. It only turns off Factories, Academy Ruins (if they play it), and Wasteland (if they are tapping it for mana). That just isn't enough. I've lost to Landstill with Web in play when they destroy my Golems with Bolt and/or Chewer, and then just overwhelm with card advantage and end up killing with Jace or just removing the Web after sculpting a perfect hand.



A much bigger problem is the impact it has on you...
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« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2013, 02:04:33 pm »



A much bigger problem is the impact it has on you...

Well, against my shop decks it doesn't hurt me because I don't play man-lands in any of them.

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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2013, 02:13:01 pm »

You 'play shops of all kind' but don't play man lands in ANY of the builds. I think that's your first problem.
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« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2013, 02:26:38 pm »

That might be the only way to reliably beat Landstill with a Shop deck - by playing manlands yourself.

Right now I'm trying to make Blue Shop Aggro work, which is incapable of playing manlands due to the manabase constraints.

Because Lightning Bolt and Goblin Welder are so devastating to Blue Shop Aggro strategy, Mental Misstep in the board might be a solid solution.
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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2013, 02:28:05 pm »

Porcelain Legionnaire is pretty good against man-lands.
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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2013, 03:26:09 pm »

Porcelain Legionnaire is pretty good against man-lands.

It's not really the manlands as much as Crucible-Lock destroying my manabase, Lightning Bolt and Ingot Chewer destroying all of my creatures, and Engineered Explosives destroying my Chalices/Moxen. Oh, and Jace. And then Goblin Welder post-board.

The manlands are really the least of the problems in the Workshop (especially Workshop aggro) vs. Landstill matchup.
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« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2013, 04:01:56 pm »

Porcelain Legionnaire is pretty good against man-lands.

It's not really the manlands as much as Crucible-Lock destroying my manabase, Lightning Bolt and Ingot Chewer destroying all of my creatures, and Engineered Explosives destroying my Chalices/Moxen. Oh, and Jace. And then Goblin Welder post-board.

The manlands are really the least of the problems in the Workshop (especially Workshop aggro) vs. Landstill matchup.

Doesn't revoker handle most of that?  You can't do much about bolt and chewer other than hoping that your game plan comes online before theirs does.  If they hit the 3 (plus spheres) mana to stick crucible, either you're somehow doing it wrong or are just aren't having many games fall in your favor.
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« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2013, 10:34:12 pm »

Throw in white and hannahs custody......
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2013, 10:46:05 pm »

Manlands certainly are a problem for aggro MUD.  They'll trade a factory for a golem anyday.  Otherwise you can't attack and are no longer "aggro".  The fact that they can crucible back factory all day means they can block anything you can throw at them and then when they have handled all your threats, they get an endless stream of sphere/chalice-proof attackers.  Hitting factories is critical.  A wasteland + extirpate/extraction can put them on Jace as their best wincon, which is really bad news vs aggro mud.  You probably can't run extirpate, but surgical extraction.  It's an early way to rip out their best offense/defense. (Extirpate is best as it dodges the 16 counterspells).  The caveat is that you have to waste/strip a factory and have extraction in hand - not a small order, but it is a very potent play vs the landstill player.
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« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2013, 11:38:38 am »

Relic of Progentius seems fine for me. Maybe throw in some Bojuka Bog.
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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2013, 09:38:18 pm »

I think Triskelion is very good against landstill.  It might not seem like much, but it kills one of their lands and you get a permanent on the board.  

It has also gotten increasingly better with young pyromancer, dark confidant, and lotus cobras everywhere.  

I don't play crucible of worlds, mainly because all an opponent has to do is have metamorph and you are back to even.  I remember a situation against landstill where he played crucible.  I had no lands in play, but held a workshop in hand to cast metamorph off the top and ended up winning the match.  But crucible is a great card against landstill because you get to recur your land destruction.  

Also note, I do not run chalice of the void in my 75, choosing instead to run mental misstep out of the board. 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 08:01:26 am by gkraigher » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2013, 01:49:29 pm »

After much testing the two best answers I've found are Triskelion (maindeck) and Crucible (maindeck and sideboard).

Triskelion can fight Factories and kill Jaces, and post-board will render Goblin Welder (and to a lesser extent) Viashino Heretic non-factors.

Crucible fights fire with fire and dulls the edge Landstill has in this matchup in the fight for resources.

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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2013, 06:53:17 am »

After much testing the two best answers I've found are Triskelion (maindeck) and Crucible (maindeck and sideboard).

Triskelion can fight Factories and kill Jaces, and post-board will render Goblin Welder (and to a lesser extent) Viashino Heretic non-factors.

Crucible fights fire with fire and dulls the edge Landstill has in this matchup in the fight for resources.

Triskelions mana cost can get a little bit prohibitive against landstill.  Personally as far as 6 drops are concerned I'm more afraid of Wurmcoil engine when playing UR because nothing efficently answers him other than counterspell and Jace bounce.

As a landstill pilot the last two cards I want to see from a shops pilot are Buried Ruin and Crucible.  Alone either one can be a beating.  Buried ruin makes a mana lock more difficult and recurs your most powerful threat. Crucible wins the land battle.  Together they are an engine to take over the game.

All this being said I've still won games with UR landstill after my opponent has resolved all 3, crucible, buried ruin, and wurmcoil, on me in the same game.  Landstill is not the type of deck that loses to 1 individual card.  Its always a grind and they are rarely ever completely out of it.  So there is no magic potion to beat them.  You need a solid 60 cards to do so.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 06:57:14 am by vaughnbros » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2013, 04:29:48 pm »

I ask this...would landstill be good against aggro (or at all) without factories?

If the answer is no (which I suspect), then wasting factory and ripping all copies via extirpate/extrction seems the best course to me.  Then they can no longer block your golems, you don't need overpriced pingers to kill them, and they have no good way to protect jace against repetitive beaters (so they can't jace-kill you).  Crucible becomes a non-issue at that point.
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« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2013, 05:06:35 pm »

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wasting factory and ripping all copies via extirpate/extrction seems the best course to me

or, you know, pithing needle
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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2013, 11:00:09 am »

After much testing the two best answers I've found are Triskelion (maindeck) and Crucible (maindeck and sideboard).

Triskelion can fight Factories and kill Jaces, and post-board will render Goblin Welder (and to a lesser extent) Viashino Heretic non-factors.

Crucible fights fire with fire and dulls the edge Landstill has in this matchup in the fight for resources.

Triskelions mana cost can get a little bit prohibitive against landstill.  Personally as far as 6 drops are concerned I'm more afraid of Wurmcoil engine when playing UR because nothing efficently answers him other than counterspell and Jace bounce.

As a landstill pilot the last two cards I want to see from a shops pilot are Buried Ruin and Crucible.  Alone either one can be a beating.  Buried ruin makes a mana lock more difficult and recurs your most powerful threat. Crucible wins the land battle.  Together they are an engine to take over the game.

All this being said I've still won games with UR landstill after my opponent has resolved all 3, crucible, buried ruin, and wurmcoil, on me in the same game.  Landstill is not the type of deck that loses to 1 individual card.  Its always a grind and they are rarely ever completely out of it.  So there is no magic potion to beat them.  You need a solid 60 cards to do so.

I can second the bit about Buried Ruin. It is amazing in Shop decks that play Crucibles maindeck, and especially vs. control decks like Landstill.

Since going to 4 Triskelion MD, 2 Crucible MD and 2 Crucible SB, and 2 Buried Ruin MD, I have yet to lose more than 2-3 matches to Landstill in maybe 20+ matches worth of testing vs. experienced pilots.

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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2013, 12:44:44 pm »

Quote
wasting factory and ripping all copies via extirpate/extrction seems the best course to me

or, you know, pithing needle

Yeah, I run needles too.  The problem I've had with needles is they are easily countered (even misstep is online) and they usually have EE or bounce to just axe needles.  It's certainly a great card if they can't answer it, but the 3-4 EE versions seem to be popular.  Also they sb in grudge/chewer since you are on shops which kills your needle.  Waste + extirpate, while harder to pull off, is uncounterable and unremovable solution to what I see as the deck's main hinderance to shops.  Jace is checked by spheres most of the time, and you have more threats than they have counters.
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