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Author Topic: Doomsday (the Ritual approach)  (Read 43092 times)
AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #210 on: July 22, 2014, 10:05:37 pm »

The biggest thing I see is that Spell Pierce #1 might be better than Flusterstorm #4. Being able to counter a Sphere/Jace/Oath is relevant. The rest of the list seems solid.
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« Reply #211 on: September 08, 2014, 01:12:57 pm »

To reheat this thread.
After playing no Doomsday for a few months. I decided yesterday to play it again in a small tournament.

Went undefeated in it yesterday with a standard list.

1 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
1 spell pierce
1 mindbreak trap
1 Hurkyl's Recall

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Nights whisper
4 Gush
1 Fastbond
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
4 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Laboratory Maniac

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Dark Ritual

2 Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded strand

Side:
3 Trygon Predator
1 Mox Emerald
1 Forest
1 Steel Sabotage
1 natures claim
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 snuff out
1 Flusterstom
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Jixlid Jailer
1 grafdiggers cage

We planned on playing deathrite shaman instead of the mindbreak trap and the night's whisper. Because we expected a shop heavy metagame (it was) but in the end i decided to go back to standard list because i also expected a lot of oath players. 

Mindbreak trap was insane all day long.
Also with the matchups i faced i should have played the Loa instead of 2nd island.

2-0 burning oath
2-1 steel city vault
2-0 gush storm
1-1-1 gush talrand
2-0 Pyromancer Rug
ID Oath

Half finals: again against talrand gush player of round 4.
Win game 1 because of him  dropping a fast manacrypt and dying on it.
lose game 2 because of a few misplay's of me after clearing all his counters
win game 3 again on his manacrypt.

split finals with friend with oath

Really found the talrand gush matchup difficult to win. Most of all because he had multiple times Loa.
Maybe need to add a few swarms in side.


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Smmenen
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« Reply #212 on: September 09, 2014, 01:14:58 am »

Tarlrand Gush sometimes runs Mystic Remora.  Xantid Swarm owns that.
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« Reply #213 on: September 09, 2014, 07:26:02 am »

Xantid Swarm is very good. I'd also suggest making sure you're maxing on Mental Misstep and Thoughtseize (cards that both fight Remora as well as resolve Swarm) along with sideboarded Xantid Swarm.

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« Reply #214 on: September 09, 2014, 01:10:39 pm »

Since this is about the ritual Doomsday builds...  a question:  When do you want to Doomsday on turn 1 ?

I've been playing a 4-ritual version of Doomsday (slightly modified from a list appearing in this thread) and been really happy with it.  Particularly satisfying is the turn 1 land, vamp/mystical/imperial seal for something you need, turn 2: land #2, ritual -> doomsday -> gush -> win.  I've come to really appreciate the deck's ability to go off early, which is the major benefit the rituals provide (2nd benefit: a credible storm threat), and I find myself with hands and situations where I think the right play is to go off turn 1.  But I have to pass the turn. 

What kinds of piles do you find successful on turn 1?  Suppose your hand is : land, ritual, ritual, doomsday, flusterstorm, preordain, imperial seal.  Do you doomsday turn 1 against an opponent that you think is playing something blue-based?  Note that your hand might not get a lot better by not going off turn 1: That preordain could find you the 2nd land you need, but then, you still need a gush, so you'd be in sort of the same place turn 2, except your opponent would have had another turn.

Or is a pass-the-turn pile with 1 land in play so bad that you wouldn't go for the early doomsday?  Or is there a kind of pile that makes it ok?


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« Reply #215 on: September 09, 2014, 07:39:16 pm »

Well, with that hand I would almost certainly Imp Seal for a Lotus into a turn 2 of Lotus, Rit, Rit, Doomsday, Preordain, Recall, Lotus, Ritual, Will, Ritual, Lotus, Preordain, Tendrils with Flusterstorm up the whole time.
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« Reply #216 on: September 09, 2014, 08:09:14 pm »

Well, with that hand I would almost certainly Imp Seal for a Lotus into a turn 2 of Lotus, Rit, Rit, Doomsday, Preordain, Recall, Lotus, Ritual, Will, Ritual, Lotus, Preordain, Tendrils with Flusterstorm up the whole time.

Nice sequence!  But I was trying to make an opening hand where a turn-1 doomsday would be tempting.  What if the imperial seal is another doomsday and the hand is:

land, ritual, ritual, doomsday, doomsday, preordain, flusterstorm?

I know I've opened similar hands.
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« Reply #217 on: September 10, 2014, 12:29:09 pm »

Xantid Swarm is very good. I'd also suggest making sure you're maxing on Mental Misstep and Thoughtseize (cards that both fight Remora as well as resolve Swarm) along with sideboarded Xantid Swarm.



Problem with maxing misstep and thoughtseize is that they are not cards you like to see against workshop decks.
I normally prefer to play misstep or flusterstorm instead of spellpierce, but i opted to play the pierce because of the expected shop decks.
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« Reply #218 on: September 11, 2014, 10:56:30 am »

Did you actually consider the utility of Spell Pierce against Workshops? The card is marginal on the draw (cannot counter anything until turn 3, by which time the opp has loads of mana or is into playing guys) and on the play, is trading 1 for 1 with Spheres what's going to win you the game? It cannot counter the most important card (Lodestone Golem), which at least Thoughtseize has a chance at on the play (both are worthless on the draw).

I'd much rather have a Thoughtseize in my deck for game 1 than a Spell Pierce, even against Workshops.
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« Reply #219 on: September 15, 2014, 02:30:05 am »

Hey, I'm building this and have a few questions. What's the role of night's whisper? Also why are people using 2 rituals, is there something special about that number? Lastly is a Sensei top worth doing?
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« Reply #220 on: September 15, 2014, 05:21:07 am »

Hey, I'm building this and have a few questions. What's the role of night's whisper? Also why are people using 2 rituals, is there something special about that number? Lastly is a Sensei top worth doing?

There isn't much (if any) role for Night's Whisper. Play 4 Preordain,  the 1st SDT, Gitaxian Probe, and Time Walk before you get to this card.

There are two ways to play this deck that have had recent success: as a Ritual Gush Storm deck and as a Doomsday Control deck.

Ritual Gush Storm wants 4 Dark Ritual, plays fewer pieces of disruption, and gets access to cards like Necropotence and maybe Timetwister. It's looking to probe defenses and exploit weaknesses found. It can win with a Will plan, an Ritual/Necro plan, or a Doomsday plan, and these plans blend together seamlessly. It has issues against decks that present a lot of cheap disruption, although it's probably better against workshops than Doomsday control because of how well it can play cards like Dark Confidant as well as win immediately after Hurkyl's Recall. Gitaxian Probe is at home in this build as a way to fuel wills while providing more means to find openings and making sure you can Doomsday, draw instead of Doomsday, go. Time Walk sees less play in these builds.

Doomsday Control is a Gush deck that grinds out opponents by having fewer mana sources and thus virtual card advantage over everyone but UR Delver. It plays more of and more disruptive counters than any other deck, and trades explosive speed of multiple rituals for the ability to consistently assemble kill sequences involving more counters in hand than the opponent has cards in hand. It will use Gushbond to generate incremental advantage until a time when it can either safely Doomsday or Will and simply end the game. Ideally, this deck would not play cards like Dark Ritual or Gitaxian Probe, although the realities of beating decks with maindeck graveyard hate and Wastelands mean you often see these cards as 1-ofs. SDT sees play here as a means of ensuring card quality while getting a "free" (on the combo turn) draw spell that preserves library count (important for Gush into Recall, your most efficient way of powering through 5 cards).

Blending the two gives interesting results. The more rituals you add to the deck, the worse your matchup against control becomes. Drawing mana sources instead of business is miserable against decks like Delver or Mono Blue. Extra Rituals, paired with definite hard counter disruption (spot discard, Forces, and Flusterstorms) allow you to quickly and decisively finish the Wasteland aggro-control decks like BUG Fish and some of the UW decks. Rituals might at first seem really awkward against Workshops, but make H.Recall into a kill a much more sure sequence. Rituals also allow explosive draws that allow you to punish weak keeps and emulate the Tutor/Ritual lines to Will that make TPS so dangerous in the mid-game. The addition of some number of Rituals makes playing against Doomsday extremely problematic for opponents who cannot properly estimate the deck's capabilities. Sometimes the opponent attempts to take a hard control role against a Doomsday deck playing 17 pieces of disruption (and fails miserably). Other times they attempt to aggro (whether with actual creatures or via a partial combo ala Tinker/Jace) only to stare down a sequence of fast mana into bombs.

In the lists that I play (0-1 Dark Ritual), 14+ disruption, I find that Time Walk, the 4th Thoughtseize, Gitaxian Probe, and Sensei's Divining Top often compete for the 60th slot. Smmenen has been playing both Time Walk and SDT in his list for VSL. It's not an auto-include, but it's a fine card and nobody will fault you for including one (although multiples are harder to justify given its vulnerabilities).
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« Reply #221 on: September 15, 2014, 05:22:23 am »

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« Reply #222 on: September 15, 2014, 08:28:30 am »

is deathrite shaman worth trying to make work?
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« Reply #223 on: September 15, 2014, 01:11:58 pm »

In defense of the 4-ritual approach:

I find the 4-rituals are pretty good against control.  Not control with 12 or more maindeck counterspells, but most other types of control.  I think 12 is about the danger-point for combo decks.  If your opponents are playing with a ton of flusters, missteps, and mindbreak traps, it's pretty hard to go off with any kind of combo.  However, in the recent meta game, these types of control decks relying mostly on counterspells have been decreasing.  There's more and more decks based on cavern of souls, and creatures are big in vintage now in general.  A lot of control decks will use removal to supplement their counterspell suite, and this is basically a win for fast combo decks that can ignore an opponent's removal cards.

There seem to be a lot of decks based on cavern, resto angel, trinket mage, bob, deathrite shaman, delver, pyromancer, etc. All these are slow control cards that are great in a long game.  You know what beats that?  A fast combo deck that wins on turn 2.

Mostly the rituals let you more reliably go off turn two with 2nd land drop -> ritual -> doomsday -> gush-in-hand = win.  Note also that sequence leaves you with an extra blue/black mana, which can be used to cast duress or flusterstorm or whatever else helps protect your combo.  The other thing you can do is just storm out with rituals and a tutor, just like a normal storm deck.  The third thing it does is let you run necropotence, which is basically more free wins, and a wincon that's immune to flusterstorm.

Re: night's whisper

Night's whisper is a pretty good draw spell.  I think its in there because you can use it as a "draw 2" in certain doomsday piles that need a draw 2.  But really those are pretty narrow cases and it's better outside of doomsday when its just drawing you cards in the early game.  I find it's a pretty nice spell that I'm basically always happy to see.

Re: proposed changes:

I think any proposed change you want to make to a doomsday deck should answer this question : does it make the workshop match better?  And does it do it without making other matchups worse?  Cause, man, as near as I can tell, Doomsday is favored against literally everything except workshops.

More specifically, ask if your card answers chalice at 1 or sphere of resistance.  Those are the two worst things a shop player can cast.  Does deathrite answer chalice at 1?  No, in fact, he's actively bad against it.  Does deathrite answer sphere of resistance?  Not unless he's already in play and you've been wastelanded, and then it only lets you cast one spell per turn that you otherwise would not be able to cast due to the sphere. 

eg, changes that might be good against shops: A maindeck  hurks.  Maindeck mox emerald.   Maybe sensei's divining top. IDK.  It's a tight list.

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AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #224 on: September 15, 2014, 01:24:07 pm »

Cause, man, as near as I can tell, Doomsday is favored against literally everything except workshops.
I don't think the Shops matchup is that bad if you're willing to toss some Deathrites and Trygons main.

UR Delver is a beating and much harder to sb against short of something like Engineered Plague resolving very early.
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« Reply #225 on: September 15, 2014, 01:42:42 pm »

Toxic Deluge and Abrupt Decay are the two best cards against UR Delver, I've found. Especially in tandem (~2 of each postboard). Decay is not the absolute worst against Shops, either, though it isn't super hot. (It shines if you're running Shamans, tho).
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« Reply #226 on: September 16, 2014, 03:05:01 pm »

BEAUTIFUL post, emidln.

I'm den_rudy's teammate who wanted to try DRS as a 2-off (and almost convincing him to join me). Our preception was that nearly half of the field would be Workshop-decks, and so this seemed like a good testing ground for the card. I ended up dropping after the first round to focus on judging the event, without ever casting the card, so nothing to report on that front I guess. I'm pretty sure the card adds too little in general to be a "correct" inclusion for the current ritual-builds of the deck though, the question to me is whether it has value in a workshop-heavy metagame.

mmcgeach is right about assessing DRS's weakness against CotV and turn 1 sphere effects. I do think he can still be valuable against shops, especially on the play, allowing you to keep your ability to tutor for and resolve Hurkyl's Recall (your main plan for game 1) - while also being strong against BUG Delver and Snapcaster-based strategies (and just being a strong and flexible card in general, if not spectacular by Vintage standards). Post-board, he increases the amount of pro-active plays you can make on the first turn and enables Trygon Predator pretty well.
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« Reply #227 on: September 20, 2014, 06:21:42 am »

This week, Ari Lax did a few videos with Doomsday in Vintage on Star City Games' website, playing four copies of Dark Ritual. He had a few observations regarding the deck as well as other blue decks in Vintage in general, some of which seemed rather 'aggressive'. I was wondering if anyone who had been involved in this discussion had watched the videos? If so what did you think of his deck and his conclusions?
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« Reply #228 on: September 28, 2014, 09:54:36 pm »

I've decided to actually build vintage and Doomsday is my deck of choice.

From my limited testing, I feel like ritual heavy lists are at a loss, like some have already discussed. I'll be testing Trygon, DRS and Confidant over the next few weeks.

Hopefully this thread gets more activity, doomsday needs more love.
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John Cox
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« Reply #229 on: September 28, 2014, 11:35:36 pm »

It's weird I just finished building this too. I built a ritual U/B list (with no fastbond); my thinking is that the more you stretch the mana base for other colors, you'll end up with less effective advantage from your low land count (less virtual card advantage). It's a blast to play for sure.
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« Reply #230 on: September 29, 2014, 02:19:46 am »

I feel like Doomsday is needing to go more disruption than combo currently. my local meta is everyone just proxying whatever wins/top8 events and I know from my legacy DDFT days, if you can't combo through it, disrupt it until you can.
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« Reply #231 on: September 29, 2014, 02:32:35 am »

That is very true. The crux of the deck though is the requirement for  {B} {B} {B} . Getting that in any deck is hard, against workshops it's harder. I think diluting the manabase makes it worse. Adding in rituals seems to help against wasteland BUG fish decks though.
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« Reply #232 on: April 06, 2015, 09:02:55 pm »


I'll just leave this IRC log here... Hola to my peps in #motl and #tmd for helping with this list. Including Jeek who is credited with the Beacon pile in 2004?


....

I think it was Billy Murano (SP? -The guy who made the hatching plans storm deck in standard) who gave the idea for the beacon kill to team Meandeck. Stephen Menendian has an article about it on Star City.

I worked on Meandeck Doomsday with JP Meyer, and created the Beacon kill on my own. Menendian left me out of the article and I've had a bug up my ass about it ever since. Wink
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« Reply #233 on: April 07, 2015, 02:41:13 am »

Just want to show you guys what I am working with.
This is not the classic approach of Dooms Day, but it original concept dates from the second Gush Era, when Eric Becker introduced Tropical storm (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35130.0), he included 1 Doomsday as Tutor/Combo piece, later Justin "Negator 13" focused the deck more to Doomsday with NLD-Next Level Doomsday (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35655.0). This deck never took off because it was released just before the re-restriction of GUSH.

The beauty of this list is, that is capable to execute 3 different route equally efficient.
1.   Gush Bond
2.   Y-Will
3.   Doomsday

It is Pact with Draw, Disruption and Combo pieces and the only card that you could consider death, are the 2 win conditions.

Some unconventional card choices explained:
DTG – This replaces the Merchant Scrolls from the old NLD list and is easy to feed with all the draw and cheap disruption. This helps allot when going the Gush Bond route or setting up for the Y-will route mid-late game.
3x Dark Ritual -  You really don’t need the fourth, mainly because you have the Gush Engine, you are able to produce sufficient Black mana when going off.
Fastbond – This card on itself opens a new route to victory, therefore it is too strong to omit it.

Below is my current decklist. The Main deck is close to perfect, but the Sideboard could use some extra attention. If you guys have any comments on the Maindeck or SB I am eager to hear them.

Main deck:   
4   Misty Rainforest
4   Polluted Delta
3   Underground Sea
2   Island
1   Tropical Island
   
1   Black Lotus
3   Dark Ritual
1   Lotus Petal
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Sapphire
   
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Brainstorm
1   Ponder
1   Gitaxian Probe
4   Preordain
4   Gush
   
1   Fastbond
1   Mystical Tutor
1   Merchant Scroll
2   Dig Through Time
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Yawgmoth's Will
2   Doomsday
   
4   Force of Will
3   Mental Misstep
2   Flusterstorm
1   Misdirection
2   Duress
1   Thoughtseize
1   Hurkyl's Recall
   
1   Laboratory Maniac
1   Tendrils Of Agony

Sideboard:      
SB:   4   Steel Sabotage
SB:   2   Hurkyl's Recall
SB:   1   Island
SB:   1   Mana Crypt
SB:   1   Sol Ring
SB:   3   Grafdigger's Cage
SB:   2   Extirpate
SB:   1   Toxic Deluge

Greetz Zieby
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« Reply #234 on: April 07, 2015, 06:50:56 am »

This isn't significantly different than the other lists that have been seeing play lately except in these cards:

Dark Rituals #2 and #3
Dig Though Times #1 and #2
Lack of Doomsdays #3 and #4

DR#2 sees more play than DR#3 does (and DR#2 isn't even very controversial, it trades more consistently explosive wills, doomsdays, and h.recalls for grinding power vs blue). I'm skeptical that the third Dark Ritual is useful enough in its secondary mode (not casting DD/YWill, making DTT cost UUB) to play over additional disruption or Treasure Cruise.  That said, 3 Dark Rituals and less than 4 H.Recalls seems like you're giving away 10s of percentage points against workshops. If you're already built to be the best set-up and I win deck, why not use that advantage in your worst matchup?

DTT is interesting in that several people I've talked to came to the conclusion that Treasure Cruise #1 was significantly better than DTT #1 when playing as the Gushbond deck. This isn't to say that "Draw 3" is a better mode than "Double Impulse", but that U, draw3 fits better into the primarily control-oriented Gushbond plan (mostly by being easier to defend in the mid-game) than UU, Double Impulse. That said, if the goal isn't necessarily to fight all comers to a stand-still (although this list still looks pretty disruptive) and bury them in CA/VCA, then the idea of constantly Digging/Gushing until you're ready to Rit+Will/DD seems very good.

Mox Emerald doesn't see a ton of play maindeck (due to lack of colorless sinks), but with more colorless sinks, I'd personally be inclined to play Mana Crypt before Mox Emerald. Crypt does more for you against Workshops while letting you fill in for a Lotus/Ritual in Doomsday piles in misc. scenarios. Particularly since the only apparent justification for Emerald vs most other lists is DTT, having an extra colorless at the cost of 1.5 life per turn it's in play seems like a great deal.
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« Reply #235 on: April 07, 2015, 10:48:02 am »

I would agree with much of the above post.  If that list cuts a Dark Ritual and the Mox Emerald for 2 Doomsdays, you have my Doomsday list almost card for card (Island -> Underground Sea, Thoughtseize -> Time Walk). Mox Emerald only casts Fastbond and seems of less use.  The 3rd Dark Ritual seems like it would be dead more often with only 2 Doomsdays and less ability to abuse the speed it offers.

I have been running 2 Dig through Time in my Doomsday list for several weeks now and I have appreciated it greatly.  I haven't tested a split between Dig and Cruise yet, but I prefer the selection that Dig offers.  I'm often looking for a specific combination of cards--Doomsday+Gush, Doomsday/Gush+disruption, etc.  And instant-speed is a huge boon.

In any case, I think if you want to pursue a route that drops 1-3 Doomsdays, then they should be replaced with bombs like Necropotence, Bargain, Desire, Timetwister, etc, and 4 rituals to maximize them would seem ideal.  Dropping key cards like Doomsday and replacing them with more acceleration or disruption would appear to de-power the deck.
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« Reply #236 on: April 07, 2015, 06:28:13 pm »

I would simply replace emerald with lotus petal as it fuels dig and cruise and can provide blue black or green as necessary.
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« Reply #237 on: April 12, 2015, 03:23:09 pm »

Last week, I won the unofficial Swedish vintage nationals with the following list:

4 Preordain
4 Gush
4 Doomsday
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Necropotence

1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm

1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Fastbond
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
3 Dark Ritual

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island


Sideboard

3 Ravenous Trap
3 Defense Grid
1 Forest
3 Trygon Predator
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Nature's Claim
1 Mindbreak Trap


36 or so players, 6 rounds and t8. Lost once against shops, won against oath, u/r pyromancer (twice), grixis control, dredge, urw mentor, bant fish, one ID (against the mentor deck I beat later in the semis).

Some quick notes:

I really like rituals #2 and #3. They contributed to a number of turn 2 kills. Also Necropotence is a messed up card.

I never missed Time Walk. Harder to say if I'd miss Imperial Seal or Sensei's Divining Top, but I'm very happy with Gitaxian Probe #2, and wouldn't mind a third.

I probably should have a 4th piece of dredge hate, either another trap or just going with leylines.

The Defense Grids were great. They dodge misstep, flusterstorm, pyroblast and misdirection, and I've seen people keep in swords against xantid swarm anyway (that it gets hit by misstep is a huge strike against it too, in my opinion). That said, maybe I could cut the third. I need something against decks where I want neither shops hate, dredge hate nor grids, that is mostly combo, and I think Mindbreak Trap is too narrow. Probably cut that and a grid for a flusterstorm or a misstep. I think I can't really spend more than 3 slots on non-dredge, non-shops hate.

The plan vs shops failed miserably, but I need to test more before suggesting any changes, I mostly just trust that the standard suite is good here. Maybe there is a case for the red splash for chewers instead of trygons?

All in all, the deck is completely busted. I didn't test much at all and most of the games were quite easy. I messed up a few piles here and there, and lost a game or two because of it, but never any matches, thankfully. It's also a complete blast to play. For me, it was the first time I cast Gush in a sanctioned tournament since the Extended Grand Prix Lisbon (Supergro) in 2002. Smile

I have to thank emidln, Ari Lax, JD Nir and oRS who in various threads, streams, videos and articles teached me how to build and play this deck.
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emidln
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emidln@hotmail.com Ace50003 brandonjadams
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« Reply #238 on: April 12, 2015, 07:01:58 pm »

I would be inclined to play Chewers before Trygon Predators (because I feel that Predator is extremely weak as a plan A since the printing of metamorph). That said, Doomsday is a very good setup deck, and I always max H.Recall prior to dealing with other stuff.

Another line, which I haven't had time recently to explore is playing Mentor in the Doomsday control shell plus sb white stuff (in particular, Serenity). Mentor is often strong enough on its own vs shops, and Doomsday is very well suited to just comboing with it (high disruption count, high spell density). This wouldn't work as well in the multiple Ritual list, but somethign more in line with what Smmenen was playing.
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BZK! - The Vintage Lightning War
Landgraf
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« Reply #239 on: April 13, 2015, 02:12:04 am »

Maxing out on Hurkyl's makes a lot of sense. So probably cut one maindeck Tropical for a Volcanic, and then a sideboard package consisting of:

1 Mountain
3 Hurkyl's
4 Chewer

That seems like what I'll try.

I especially like the idea of Serenity. I was wondering why that card didn't see more play. Same with mentor in more combo-centered decks. I'd much rather mentor with fastbond and will than with swords and jace.
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