Waste Not

[Blue Lotus]

In a Draw 7 Type deck, this card makes whiffs into actual plays.  Underword Dreams is a thing I have died to against a Draw 7 deck.

Interesting.

Draw 7's + mana filtering (eggs, etc.) + luck = chaining draw sevens into victory. sounds very fun!

[Random Noob]

Since the realease is knockig on the Door, and it's pretty good against Dack Fayden's +1, which will likely see play, I would bring those who try a Storm/Discard List "Dream Salvage" back to mind. Currently I don't know how to build the list, MD Storm with Lilly and Confi SB maybe?

Cheers)

[msg67183]

I was thinking of a storm list with this, draw 7's and notion thief
You should also play a set of duress and thoightseize for maximum value

[MaximumCDawg]

I don't see this card doing anything in Vintage.  I'd love to be wrong, but I still don't see it.  As a value play to fight Dack or assist discard it just seems bad.  Even in magical Christmas land, where Waste Not resolves and Dack needs to loot, the opponent gets to control what benefit you get from Waste Not.  So you're running a card that adds a punisher mechanic to Dack...?  Seems worse that running something that would destroy Dack (red or blue blast do it, lol) or have more generalized utility (spirit of the lab, f.e.). 

I can't see Waste Not doing anything unless you pair it with Spirit of the Lab and make some kind of crazy Draw 7 list.  But there's just not enough cheap Draw 7s to make this work.  You got, from best to worst:

Wheel of Fortune
Timetwister
Memory Jar
Windfall
Diminishing Returns
That one red miracle Wheel from Avacyn Restored
Whispering (whatever) from Return to Ravnica block
Wheel of Fate
Magus of the Jar

Are you gonna gunk up your deck with a do-nothing card like Waste Not just to get value out of your draw 7?  Not unless you win the game afterwards.

[Protoaddict]

I think only looking at cards that see play already is a mistake. There are plenty of fringe powerful cards that do not see a ton of play because the environment is not quite right that are poised for a comeback.

I sorta see this as a role player in dark times, a deck that wandered off for a bit but I think is due to come back.


4 Waste not
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Thoughtsizes
4 Leyline of the void
4 Null rod
3 Liliana of the viel

1 Demonic tutor
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Demonic consultation
1 Imperial seal
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoths will

4 Dark ritual
1 Mox Jet
1 Black lotus


I mean that is just the core of an idea, but not only does this list force an opponent to play fair while you hold all the sick fair cards, it also has a great preboard against dredge. I think Waste not is really powerful in this situation and could be its own deck.

[mmcgeach]

I think the synergy with Lilly is strong.  Lilly is very good and in general underplayed.  I think take that list in the post above and go:

-4 leyline
+4 deathrite shaman

and you've got a good core.  The synergy between liliana and deathrite is already fantastic.  It probably wants more discard...  maybe a couple cabal therapy, or a single mindtwist.  I don't think you need more wincons than Waste Not + Deathrite, but it wouldn't hurt to add a combo plan B of some sort (tinker, marit lage, or even reanimation).

The deck almost feels like black stax.  It's tempting to try to lock down the board/hand somehow, and just win with deathrite + waste not tokens. 

I'd be tempted to use Chains of Mephistopheles out of the sideboard, and possibly maindeck, even though it cuts your own draw from Waste Not.

[vaughnbros]

I'm having a lot of trouble seeing much potential here.  Duress effects and hymn want to be played as early as possible and lose a lot of power when you wait to play them until after a 1B spell.  In decks with draw 7's I feel there are better cards to be playing, since those decks are typically loaded with the restricted list and this doesn't do anything without the assistance of a draw 7 or duress.  This brings up the question how much value needs to be generated by it on average to make it worth it?  I don't think it seems worth it being that the maximum is a couple of 2/2 zombies, a couple black mana, and a couple extra cards, with the minimum being nothing.  I'd be very surprised if this saw competitive play at pretty much any level let alone vintage.

[heiner]

I can't see Waste Not doing anything unless you pair it with Spirit of the Lab and make some kind of crazy Draw 7 list.  But there's just not enough cheap Draw 7s to make this work.  You got, from best to worst:

Wheel of Fortune
Timetwister
Memory Jar
Windfall
Diminishing Returns
That one red miracle Wheel from Avacyn Restored
Whispering (whatever) from Return to Ravnica block
Wheel of Fate
Magus of the Jar

Winds of Change should be in fourth spot

[Protoaddict]

I'm having a lot of trouble seeing much potential here.  Duress effects and hymn want to be played as early as possible and lose a lot of power when you wait to play them until after a 1B spell.  In decks with draw 7's I feel there are better cards to be playing, since those decks are typically loaded with the restricted list and this doesn't do anything without the assistance of a draw 7 or duress.  This brings up the question how much value needs to be generated by it on average to make it worth it?  I don't think it seems worth it being that the maximum is a couple of 2/2 zombies, a couple black mana, and a couple extra cards, with the minimum being nothing.  I'd be very surprised if this saw competitive play at pretty much any level let alone vintage.

If your opponent has no hand, with no yard from a leyline, and is in topdeck mode, Waste Not does not need to generate much value as a few zombies will do it. I do think the deck needs a basic aggro plan, even if its something as simple as Gatekeeper of malikir or confidants.

I mean even if your opening line of play is T1 Duress, T2 Waste not, T3 Hymn, that hymn alone could chain into quite a bit of stuff including more mana sources for more discard for more advantage. Thing thing with Waste Not is that it cascades. It really does not matter if you draw 2 dead cards later on the in the game if it just gave you a bunch of on board presence and your opponent has no hand.

It also happens early enough in the game that you opponent may wind up with stranded cards in hand. If they draw a force of will with no other blue source chances are that will turn into more value for you

I also suspect that this will play nicely with a devotion strategy. If you want leyline and waste not and liliana on board, Shrine to Nyxthos may be an option to produce silly mana. Hell, remember that necropotence/drainlife was once a dominant strategy, it could be again all things considered.

[MaximumCDawg]

Winds of Change should be in fourth spot

Get thee back to your Nekuzzar EDH deck, silly man.

[vaughnbros]

If your opponent has no hand, with no yard from a leyline, and is in topdeck mode, Waste Not does not need to generate much value as a few zombies will do it.

I mean even if your opening line of play is T1 Duress, T2 Waste not, T3 Hymn, that hymn alone could chain into quite a bit of stuff including more mana sources for more discard for more advantage. Thing thing with Waste Not is that it cascades. It really does not matter if you draw 2 dead cards later on the in the game if it just gave you a bunch of on board presence and your opponent has no hand.

Sure this seems like a fine strategy assuming your opponent twiddled their thumbs for the first few turns of the game.

I do think the deck needs a basic aggro plan, even if its something as simple as Gatekeeper of malikir or confidants.

In such a deck waste not is inferior in almost every situation when compared to bob.

I also suspect that this will play nicely with a devotion strategy. If you want leyline and waste not and liliana on board, Shrine to Nyxthos may be an option to produce silly mana. Hell, remember that necropotence/drainlife was once a dominant strategy, it could be again all things considered.

Yes because Waste Not is exactly what mono black needed to set up their nykthos, shrine to nyx into drain life combo.

[Protoaddict]

Right in sorry, I forgot that new cards are inherently bad unless they do an established thing in an established deck that we all already understand.

Who would have thought even 2 years ago that merfolk would win a vintage world champs based on the printing of cavern of souls or that a 3/4 white flyer for 4 would be vintage playable. Cards change formats, and formats change cards. Some people didn't like Jace at first.

Maybe my brainstorming here is not the way it will go, it does not mean the discussion is invalid as you seem to think. I personally think that this card has a unique enough and strong enough game winning effect that it should be used, and it works with Dark confidant so I have no idea why you would not use them both in the same deck.

Let's roll back here for a second. I'm not sure if a Megrim strategy has every been a vintage deck, but I remember back in saga block or similar older format megrim being a dominant thing with Memory Jar. Megrim is often looked at as a terrible card but in this deck it was great and a wincon. While this is not a strict upgrade to Megrim, it sorta is. Combined with a single Hymn to Tourach, this card has the potential to draw you cards and generate more mana to make your opponent discard even more.

It also does exactly what you need against the deck you play against.
Against decks with a lot of creatures, gives you creatures.
Against decks with a lot of counter magic, it gives you card advantage
Against Dredge which generates zombies, it generates you zombies
Against any deck that cannot counter first turn discard cards, it can outright win you the game combined with like 1 discard spell.

I would not be so fast to disregard this card.

[vaughnbros]

You've now brought up megrim and drain life in your argument for the card.  I mean both may have been decent cards 15 years ago, but we aren't in the 20th century anymore, these types of card have been relegated to EDH and kitchen table games for a while now and haven't seen competitive play in over a decade.

Right in sorry, I forgot that new cards are inherently bad unless they do an established thing in an established deck that we all already understand.

No its inherently bad because its effect is random, it does nothing on its own, and most of all it sequences poorly with the cards that it needs to be played with.

Lets look at what a hymn to tourach could do in addition to discard 2 at random after waste not is in play:
Draws me two cards the turn after I play it (I could've just played night's whisper for the same mana and gotten those cards immediately)
Draws me a card and gives me a 2/2 the turn after I play it (I could've played bob and had my 2/1 immediately and draw a card every turn hereafter)
Gives me two 2/2's
Gives me one card and BB back into my pool (essentially waste not has just cycled itself for "free" a turn later)
Gives me one 2/2 and adds BB to my pool (basically a priest of gix imitation)
Gives me BBBB in my pool turning my hymn into a ritual effect
My hymn gets countered I get nothing
My opponent has no card in hand I get nothing

There are a handful of those that seem pretty powerful and if I got to choose which effect I get this card would be insanely good, but the problem here is that this effect is random.  Sure you have higher odds against a creature deck of getting a 2/2, against a control deck of drawing cards ect., but its just that odds.  You don't get to choose what you need.  If I get the ritual with no cards in hand its done nothing.  If I'm staring down a table of a bunch of creatures and I get to draw a couple cards while I'm tapped out its not really helping much.  If I get a 2/2 while my opponent has oath out... well you get the picture.  A random effect is a random effect.

An even bigger issue with this example is that we are assuming we are in magical Christmas land and have this card with hymn to tourach, which will happen less than 20% of the time even with both as 4-ofs.  With duress this draws me a single card, a pretty poor investment for 1B.  With thoughtseize I get a 2/2 or a card, also a pretty poor investment for 1B.  Worse off when my opponents hand is empty and I have a deck loaded with thoughtseize, duress, hymn, and waste not, while their hand may be empty I now have an enormous number of dead cards in my deck.  If I don't have a clear advantage on the board I will likely not win that battle.

The sequencing problem is by far the biggest here though.  I want to cast my draw 7 turn 1 on the play if I can, but then I can't use waste not unless I happen to have 5 mana on turn 1.  I want to cast my duress, thoughtseize, hymn as early as possible to get the most value, but I then I can't use this waste not.  Its competing directly in the line of sequencing with the cards that it needs to play with.  This is a pretty huge problem.  Discard effects in general only get worse as the game goes and they are already struggling to make the cut in deck lists, when you factor in that you have to wait a turn to cast them, in order to get down your waste not, they are very likely unplayable.

In summary, this card is inherently bad because it has major design flaws, not because it doesn't fit into an established deck.

[MaximumCDawg]

When this card was being designed by the community, I argued that it would be potentially playable only at 1 or less mana (leyline, for example) and I still feel that way.  This card does something for you in only three circumstances:

1. Your opponent is discard cards on their own.
2. You make them discard with disruption.
3. You make them discard with wheel effects.

If your opponent is doing No. 1 all the time in Vintage, you're either playing Dredge or maybe Slaver.  Against these decks, your Waste Not is functioning kind of like Pyrostatic Pillar against storm; it's punishing them midlly for doing something outrageously broken.  The most recent SMIP went into this idea in a big way, explaining that no one wants to allow a storm deck to go off and burn them for it.  You lose that way.  Instead, you want to stop them from going off in the first place.  Same here.  Generating 2/2s is useless against a slaver lock or army of zombie tokens.  What you need is yard hate.  In fact, Waste Not versus yard strategies is even worse than Pillar because Waste Not gives the enemy a choice about what you get.

If you are playing Dark Times or whatever and you're doing No. 2, then Waste Not is actually just terrible.  Either you play it first in lieu of your discard, giving your opponent an opening to cast something you can't deal with since you missed it with your Thoughtseize, or you wait until you've used your early disruption, in which case Waste Not does literally nothing until you topdeck some weak late game discard later on.  Seems like a Waste (Not) of your turn.

That's why I can only realistically see No. 3 as a home for Waste Not.  There is at least the possibility that you can use Waste Not to chain Wheel effects and get massive benefit out of it.  I don't see how such a deck exists right now, but that's where I'd be looking if I wanted to make this card do some work.

Maybe something like this:

Engine (9)
--------
Waste Not x4
Wheel of Fortune x1
Windfall x1
Whispering Madness x2
Timetwister x1

Redundancy (7)
-------
Demonic Tutor x1
Burning Wish x1
Vampiric Tutor x1
Yagmoth's Will x1
Regrowth x3

Disruption (14)
------
Force of Will x4
Flusterstorm x2
Commandeer x1
Misdirection x1
Thoughtseize x4
Duress x2

Spice with the usual storm mana base and win conditions.

[H]

That list is begging for Mind Twist too.

[Demagoguery]

Let's roll back here for a second. I'm not sure if a Megrim strategy has every been a vintage deck, but I remember back in saga block or similar older format megrim being a dominant thing with Memory Jar. Megrim is often looked at as a terrible card but in this deck it was great and a wincon. While this is not a strict upgrade to Megrim, it sorta is. Combined with a single Hymn to Tourach, this card has the potential to draw you cards and generate more mana to make your opponent discard even more.

I think this is the problem with the card right here. It's the same cost as Liliana's Caress which is a one sided Megrim, but unlike Caress it doesn't have an assured mode to it, so what ends up essentially happening is that you can completely dead end yourself with it. Sure, making a 2/2 can be argued to be better than just dealing 2 damage to your opponent, but there are far fewer creatures in Vintage, so you won't see that mode happen as much.

As a whole though we have to ask ourselves if this card is really better than Caress, because while it has better Christmas land scenarios, it lacks the consistency, and Caress is a lot better with Memory Jar because dealing 14 is pretty good. Maybe if Waste Not triggered for you whenever any player discarded a card, and then you could play Bazaar with other cool things, but as it stands now it seems really underwhelming and I doubt it would ever be better than Bob or even Caress.

[Bill Copes]

Sorry to Necro this, but I just had a thought.  Isn't this card just a little bit nutty vs. dredge?  I think it may be.

[gkraigher]

It has applications against dredge, but the better route would be to turn off their engine than to keep a slower pace with it.  It's certainly good if you were playing a deck that was abusing it, but I don't think it is sideboard "tech" by any means.  

That being said, I'd like to be on record as saying that this is a good magic card. 

[MaximumCDawg]

Sorry to Necro this, but I just had a thought.  Isn't this card just a little bit nutty vs. dredge?  I think it may be.

No.  Even less so than Pyrostatic Pillar is nutty versus storm.  It gives you a minor benefit when they do something awfully broken.  Letting them do said broken thing = you lose.

[Bill Copes]

Sorry to Necro this, but I just had a thought.  Isn't this card just a little bit nutty vs. dredge?  I think it may be.

No.  Even less so than Pyrostatic Pillar is nutty versus storm.  It gives you a minor benefit when they do something awfully broken.  Letting them do said broken thing = you lose.

I probably should have added more words:  I wasn't implying that this should be played over dredge-hate, but rather a benefit of any deck that might run this in the main.  At the very least, the advantages created from the opponent dumping creature and spells could buy enough time to dig for a win/answer.

[MaximumCDawg]

Sorry to Necro this, but I just had a thought.  Isn't this card just a little bit nutty vs. dredge?  I think it may be.

No.  Even less so than Pyrostatic Pillar is nutty versus storm.  It gives you a minor benefit when they do something awfully broken.  Letting them do said broken thing = you lose.

I probably should have added more words:  I wasn't implying that this should be played over dredge-hate, but rather a benefit of any deck that might run this in the main.  At the very least, the advantages created from the opponent dumping creature and spells could buy enough time to dig for a win/answer.

Yeah, I guess that's fair.  Before you can talk about splashing minor hate for dredge, though, you have to justify running Waste Not in the first place.  In reading this thread, that appears to be limited to the possibility of "Wheel.dec," but that does not seem like it's a viable deck, so...

[mmcgeach]

I don't want to alarm anyone with the idiocy of the following list, so feel free to skip it...

Wouldn't it be fun if something like this worked:

4 waste not
4 anvil of bogardan
4 chains of mephistopheles
3 life from the loam

4 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy
2 liliana of the veil

4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant

demonic tutor
vampiric tutor
yawgmoth's will

black lotus
mox jet
mox emerald

4 dark ritual

2 dark depths
2 thespian's stage
1 strip mine
3 wasteland
3 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
1 swamp
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

It runs a bunch of discard which synergies with waste not and deathrite shaman.  Any sort of repeatable discard + waste not is probably game.  Life from the Loam and bob work really well with the chains.  chains + anvil is enough to kill your opponent's hand.  Then when you're ready, assemble the marit lage combo and win.

[Bill Copes]

Yeah, I guess that's fair.  Before you can talk about splashing minor hate for dredge, though, you have to justify running Waste Not in the first place.

I do not disagree at all, nor am I saying that this card is even runnable.  I'm just musing at an interaction with a deck.  If that was a waste of typed words and people's time, I'll refrain from posting constructive, however unproven thoughts in the future.

I don't want to alarm anyone with the idiocy of the following list, so feel free to skip it...

Wouldn't it be fun if something like this worked:

4 waste not
4 anvil of bogardan
4 chains of mephistopheles
3 life from the loam

4 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy
2 liliana of the veil

4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant

demonic tutor
vampiric tutor
yawgmoth's will

black lotus
mox jet
mox emerald

4 dark ritual

2 dark depths
2 thespian's stage
1 strip mine
3 wasteland
3 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
1 swamp
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

It runs a bunch of discard which synergies with waste not and deathrite shaman.  Any sort of repeatable discard + waste not is probably game.  Life from the Loam and bob work really well with the chains.  chains + anvil is enough to kill your opponent's hand.  Then when you're ready, assemble the marit lage combo and win.

Since you have the Loam engine in place, I'd run Raven's Crime or two.  Also, Dark Depths and no Vampire Hexmages?  -4 Anvil, +4 Hexmage.

[gkraigher]

hexmage is actually a good card in vintage.  it kills planeswalkers, can sac itself to target any card and exile bridge from belows, has first strike to battle creature based decks, and negates tangle wire.  If you are running dark depths, you should be playing a few of these just for value.

[MaximumCDawg]

Yeah, I guess that's fair.  Before you can talk about splashing minor hate for dredge, though, you have to justify running Waste Not in the first place.

I do not disagree at all, nor am I saying that this card is even runnable.  I'm just musing at an interaction with a deck.  If that was a waste of typed words and people's time, I'll refrain from posting constructive, however unproven thoughts in the future.

Oh dear, no, I'm not suggesting you're wasting anyone's time.  I'm just saying that Waste Not's road to goes through "Why Am I Running This Thing" Town before it even reaches "I Guess It Helps Me Lose Slower To Dredge"ville.

[mmcgeach]

Since you have the Loam engine in place, I'd run Raven's Crime or two.  Also, Dark Depths and no Vampire Hexmages?  -4 Anvil, +4 Hexmage.

I like the raven's crime idea.  But Anvil is the main engine of the deck.  I know what hexmage does; but I just don't think it makes the cut in this list.  God.  I can't believe I just said that about this pile of cards.  But try the anvil + chains combo... it makes it pretty much impossible to do anything sorcery speed w/o having a dredger to replace the anvil draw.  (and darkblast seems like a possible sideboard option).