Human Ingenuity

[brianpk80]

It's wonderful how cavern and abolisher can work setting those tendrils or vault wins. Abolisher and notion are what intrigue me more about this deck, tremendous creatures against control.

Congratulations on your winning, luckily Dan Bernquist played thorn before Cotv, or it would have been a little hard on qf :p

Thank you.  The possibilities opened up by Cavern -> Abolisher are what intrigued me a few months back.  Originally, when the card debuted it was dismissed by many people including me because we were thinking of it in a defensive context, for instance, using it to resolve a Swords to Plowshares or Hate-bear that tries to prevent the opponent from winning, rather than being the one outright winning.  As for the quarters, everyone makes errors in events myself included and it's just something that happens; my opponent won one of the last Bloomsburgs and does very well in a lot of events so he's no slouch.  If the Chalice resolved, we'd probably end up going to g3 where I'd hope to be favored on the play and being post-sideboard (no topdeck Mental Missteps, etc.).  

So here's just a quick question, why doesn't the non-combo version run Resto Angel?

Excellent question.  I had Restoration Angel in the pre-combo "Jace Humans" lists and it functioned exactly as you describe, reaping benefits from Eternal Witness and particularly Stoneforge Mystic.  The surprise value generates a lot of card advantage blowouts, especially when an opponent sequences their turn anticipating that they will successfully remove Thalia.  

Maybe I'm underestimating the power of Mistcutter or Exava, but while I know both of those are strong cards, it feels like the Angel is just as good.  

They're all serving the same primary purpose, being anti-Jace beatsticks.  Different builds and color configurations help determine which is optimal in a given deck.  

Have u missed mayor at all? Even as a 1 of in ur 75 or is ophinimancer ur token maker of choice? Even young pyromancer could be tested w the high spell count I would think?

Mayor is great but as Guli mentioned, he thrives in a very different environment.  Ophiomancer is better when the combat damage to you or your Planeswalker is something you want deterred, rather than Mayor where you're trying to win through combat damage.  Pyromancer might work in some sort of variation but here, there is no red fetch target; it's essentially just an Esper deck with a very light green splash that wouldn't be possible for a green non-creature spell but is acceptable because the Hierarch benefits from and works so well translating Cavern mana into blue/white.  

@Brian, have you ever considered Skullclamp?  It seems to work well with the current P/T of creatures and it's fetchable with Trinket Mage while fueling the combo.

I tested it and it was occasionally a blowout card and at other times was underwhelming or dead due to no creatures being in play.  The best creature to Clamp value-wise was Snapcaster Mage.  Other times, I would look at the potential targets, Dark Confidant and Noble Hierarch, and realize I was better off having them in play this turn and the next than spending mana to draw 2 cards right now.  Sometimes I would Clamp them anyway out of greed and then regret it.  I never Clamped a Notion Thief.  It was one of the first cards I cut when space got tight.

Brian, I have to admit I usually *HATE* decks like this because they often times feel like a Jumbled mess, but I really love the unique quirks of this list.  Kudos.

Thanks Mike!  I don't know if you caught the reference in the deck description on page 15, so I'll copy it below:

The list here draws inspiration from many sources, including TPS, Bomberman, Grand Vault, and a memorable experience months ago as a spectator on Cockatrice for a series of matches where Mike Solymossy obscenely annihilated his Gush opponent using a Steel City Vault list running 2 Notion Thieves main.  

-B

[Protoaddict]

Has anyone considered Lavinia of the Tenth. I don't know why this came up today but I took notice of her because she does SO MUCH.

Human and Solider
Shuts down virtually any permanent your opponent has in play including Jace, so he cannot bounce her that turn.
Protection from Red is probably relevant in some match ups, and probabaly never a down side
Lets you alpha strike against most decks.
Bounceable with Karakas, and your opponent won't want to bounce her.

I know that she costs 5 mana but she seems like a 4/4 timewalk and will basically win you the game when she comes down. Everyone was skeptical about Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch but she seems to have proven her worth and is basically in 2 "off" colors.

At the least this seems like a super solid trump card for the mirro. Maybe just a 1 of in the side board?

[brianpk80]

Has anyone considered Lavinia of the Tenth. I don't know why this came up today but I took notice of her because she does SO MUCH.

Guli has been using her in Legacy with success.  Perhaps he can elaborate more. 

[Guli]

I will attempt to destroy the Belgian Legacy metagame. I could fail, but I sure will try. Lavinia is a very important card for the deck I will use. She is my endgame plan and I have tutor capabilities to get her in my hand. This allows me to only use 1 slot for her, but in almost all my games, she comes into play and she locks down simply everything except for Batterskull. However, batterskull needs a creature and a lot of mana to equip, and all their creatures are detained, so in reality the Batterskull is also detained since it has no targets that can attack with that turn.

The Lavinia plan is actually a plan to gain massive card advantage. You let them get away with a lot of stuff early on and focuss on survival, disrupting them in case they are trying to combo or do something big. All the things they have done and build up, are suddenly irrelevant once Lavinia triggers. This is how I play out Lavinia and there isn't much they can do about it but to kill me fast.

It is hard for me to tell if the card has Vintage playability, since Vial is an important card in my Legacy version of 5C Humans.

My regards,
Guli

[serracollector]

@ Brian:  I been testing your list, and I really really like it, but while testing I tried some of my own innovations (as always)  and I tested this:



In place of Sensei's Divining Top and try this:


In place of Gitaxin Probe, which I understand is mainly used as insight to opponent's hand, not as CA, while Sindbad played his role as "Bob #5".  

With 4 Dark Confidants, Trinket Mage, and Snapcasters, Information dealer has been absolutely amazing, and alongside Sindbad/Bob is just sillyness, and for free vs the 1-2 mana needed for Top.
Sindbad has worked amazingly well, especially since running 2 snaps, twister, and yawgmoth's will, even if your not "drawing" cards off sindbad, your just setting up your grave for some silly shenanigans once you drop a Grand Abolisher.

I would suggest 1 or both, in testing at least, and let me think how you feel on them.  Don't dismiss them, I promise in my testing they have been rather great uncounterable additions sir.

[The Atog Lord]

Guli did destroy me in an online game using Lavinia and Karakas. It was brutal, and honestly pretty awesome to see. It worked so well that I think Lavinia may be worth further consideration in general in decks already running Karakas.

And Sinbad! While I've not taken him to a tournament before, I've certainly tested with him as a draw engine. Ultimately, he's not as good as Dark Confidant (or close to as good). He is, however, able to be run in decks either not running black mana, or decks wanting a fifth Dark Confidant. The question is whether he is better than Snapcaster Mage. Snapcaster is larger, has Flash, and gives you the bonus card right away, rather than perhaps someday in the future. However, I can't see anything wrong with testing a single copy of Sinbad, especially in a spell-light deck.

[Guli]

Guli did destroy me in an online game using Lavinia and Karakas. It was brutal, and honestly pretty awesome to see. It worked so well that I think Lavinia may be worth further consideration in general in decks already running Karakas.

And Sinbad! While I've not taken him to a tournament before, I've certainly tested with him as a draw engine. Ultimately, he's not as good as Dark Confidant (or close to as good). He is, however, able to be run in decks either not running black mana, or decks wanting a fifth Dark Confidant. The question is whether he is better than Snapcaster Mage. Snapcaster is larger, has Flash, and gives you the bonus card right away, rather than perhaps someday in the future. However, I can't see anything wrong with testing a single copy of Sinbad, especially in a spell-light deck.

Nice to hear you liked the combo.

I can see Sinbad become really strong with top deck manimulation and maybe some untap effects. It would be very similar to scry but better because you ship the cards to your hand while clearing your way to more business cards. I agree it should probably not be played in extreme numbers. My only concern or my magic gut feeling, is that I have this thought of 'isn't there something better you can do for 1 ?

[Protoaddict]

Since most of these lists are running almost exclusively creatures and artifacts and are now running blue as a primary color, has anyone considered in the eye of chaos?



It is a one sided sphere against counter magic and control that often will cost more than one. It especially hurts storm but it does shut down a lot of key cards in a lot of decks:

Gush players would have to pay 5
Timewalk would cost 4
Turns off rituals
Cabal therapy and probe are no longer free
Dread return is stopped cold in dredge
Tendrils and the cards you need to get there become extremely costly
Force is turned off
ETC

It seems pretty well positioned for this list, even as a 1 of in the board

[serracollector]

it only affects instants, not sorceries.

[Protoaddict]

Ah poop. Misread that since i saw Interrupts. That being said it still could be viable.

[Lurker101]

What are your answers to Abrupt Decay? In my Stax lists I have been testing with Reverent Mantra, Divert, and Imp's Mischief alongside Misdirection.

[Guli]

I have been trying to solve the Decay problem too and I also think Misdirection effects can be strong. But never tested it. How is the Imp's Mischief working out for you?

[brianpk80]

The solution is to have more threats than the opponent has Decays or mana screw them hard in the early game w. Sphere & Waste effects.  For BUG Fish, Rest in Peace must be sided in because you get virtual CA out of that thing to the same extent as you'd see the same with Stony Silence v. Jace Vault.  That will prevent Snapcaster Decay.  Also, Meddling Mage naming "Abrupt Decay" has been a very solid play and helped to win several games in events v. BUG Fish.  Hope that helps,  -B

[Lurker101]

I have added two Meddling Mages to my main deck too. They've been great so far. Imp's Mischief works because of how unexpected it is also most targeted spells that you would be worried about are not high cmc enough for the life loss to be bad. Reverent Mantra protects against Decay as well as things like pyroclasm and can at the very least get attackers through unblocked and counter Jace activations. My list has changed quite a bit too. I'm testing one with Zur and the toolbox of enchantments and one list with all that cut out. Once I get enough testing in I'll post what I have.

[Guli]

In lists with Cavern and Humans with etb trigger with Value, Deputy of Acquittals could be a nice card (especially with Aether Vial which represents 2 or 3 lands). It can be used to save decay targets and to replay things like Trinket Mage, Imperial Recruiter, Snapcaster Mage or Stoneforge Mystic.

[serracollector]

is a really good answer to jace, swords, bolt, and abrupt decay.  

[Guli]

The problem with Meddling Mage and Steely Resolve is that they are targets themselves. Once they are gone, the opponent regains the ability to play their removal card. I think it is better to construct a strategy that involves just letting them play their card. You can either play cards that get another cards making them removal a bad trade, play misdirection effects or surprise them by flashing in something that saves your guy (Stonecloaker, Deputy, ...). If you want a card that protects, I would suggest a card that can also protect itself in a flexible way. Cards like mother of runes and sylvan safekeeper could get the job done.

[MTGFan]

is a really good answer to jace, swords, bolt, and abrupt decay.  

This would be an amazing card if it had a Power and Toughness in the lower right corner of the card.

i.e. This card suffers from the Thorn of Amethyst problem: highly playable, and even excellent, if it has a 2/1 p/t and first strike (Thalia). By itself, only marginally playable except in a dedicated prison deck with other similar components.

What they need to do now is print something like this:

Sylvan Guide WG
Creature - Human Druid

Human creatures you control gain hexproof.

2/1

[vaughnbros]

As Guli mentioned briefly.  I would like to point you all to two pretty amazing humans at stopping targeted spells and abilities...





There is no need to run steely resolve.

[A.-1.]

Sylvan Safekeeper. Damn, that one takes me back awhile. Now I want to go play Full English Breakfast.

[Guli]

I like Sylvan Safekeeper. I used it in my old Gaddock lists with Canonist and Meddling Mage. Combo back then could not win with their singleton chain of vapor if you got a Safekeeper and hatebear. But now, in the current meta, I could also see it do work. It activates our Deathrite Shaman too when you need another mana. I would play it with life from the loam, to get back lands in your hand to keep Safekeeper active. I also experimented with Countryside crusher, it was amazing how you could give it shroud and +1/+1 counters. Also nice with Knight of the R. if you want a quick clock. My only problem now is that I would not want to run more than 1 in a deck because the effect does not stack, while mother of runes does stack.


This is why I think a mass hexproof guy for humans would need something extra, something that gives additional value than just a 2/1.

Sylvan Guide WG
Creature - Human Druid

Human creatures you control gain hexproof.

, Exile Sylvan Guide: Exile all Human creatures you control. At the beginning of the next end step, return those cards to the battlefield under their owners' control.

2/1

This would allow for interesting tactics.

[Lurker101]

Alright here's the Human Stax list I've been testing online and I'm finally happy with how it's playing out.

Human Stax

Artifact:11
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol ring
1 Thousand-Year Elixir
1 Trinisphere
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds

Creatures: 19
2 Braids, Cabal Minion
3 Dark Confidant
1 Devout Witness
2 Glowrider
1 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Unseen
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ophiomancer
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Weathered Wayfarer

Instants/Sorceries:11
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Unearth

Lands:19
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Captain of the Mists (Taps down Tinker targets, blockers, keys, mana, and untaps utility creatures for reuse)
1 Hammer Mage (for Shops mainly and bulk kills Chalices/vaults/keys/moxen when necessary)
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage (Mainly against blue kills Jace, Delvers, Standstills, Merfolk, and can kill other things through direct damage)
1 Magus of the Tabernacle (for Shops, Dredge, general aggro, Pyromancer Gush, and Empty the Warrens)
1 Mangara of Corondor (Comes in mainly for Jace and Oath)
1 Notion Thief (Mainly Gush and Combo)
1 Orzhov Pontiff (Comes in against Confidants, Pyromancers, and other aggro decks running creatures like Thalia/TNN)
1 Peacekeeper (Against Oath and Dredge mainly.)
1 Preacher (Mainly Oath and cards like Inkwell Leviathan and True-name nemesis)
1 Sakashima's Student (Oath again but can double as another copy of whatever utility creature you need most)
1 Seasinger (Blue decks running significant creatures)
1 Sydri, Galvanic Genius (Really only kills Moxen and Chalices. I've never boarded it in and between Witness, Magus of the Unseen and Hammer Mage I can probably cut it for another Cage)
1 Venser, Shaper Savant (Generally useful for bouncing problematic permanents like Oath targets and Jace and as a surprise remand when necessary. It can bounce Abrupt Decay and gets around Thalia and Glowrider. People usually don't expect it.)

There's plenty of flexibility here and it's actually fairly easy to get a lock down between Braids and crucible/Ophiomancer/Magus of the Unseen and Volrath's Stronghold or Weathered Wayfarer/Crucible + Strip/Waste. There's an answer for almost everything between the SB and MD and via caverns most answers are uncounterable. Imperial Recruiter and Dark Confidants allow you to find whichever 1 of or toolbox piece you need fairly easily and Stronghold can recur anything that doesn't get through or gets destroyed which helps a lot with consistency. There's lots of 1 ofs but it's surprisingly easy to get what you need. Unearth can recur any MD creature you play  except Braids and can cycle when you don't need it. Also unearth is unexpected and I like holding it for when you really need to land a creature without cavern in play. You can keep B up and follow opposing FOWs with Unearth and get your Confidant or whatever onto the battlefield. Unearth is also good following Abrupt Decay and while it can be missteped people rarely expect it. It also offers more flexibility allowing me to run fewer copies of each creature for more answers. It's also just a really fun deck to play.

[brianpk80]

It's nice to see your list evolving and incorporating some creative elements.  When I saw Thousand Year Elixir, for a moment I thought it was Elixir of Immortality and wondered how a Feldon's Cane effect fit into the overall scheme.  I think if hasting the abilities of the few creatures carrying them is an objective, you might want to try Lightning Greaves.  Other synergic cards that benefit from Greaves are Goblin Welder, Trygon Predator, and Thada Adel, Acquisitor.  Also, War Priest of Thune is the most effective sideboard card Humans have in their arsenal v. Oath of Druids and I recommend it highly.  Good luck.

[Lurker101]

Thanks! I don't know how I missed War Priest but that's in the SB now instead of Captain of the Mists and Sydri.

[Guli]

Pathetic I know, but what can we do, this is what we get. The name of the card, the flavor and the casting cost... it al was perfect for a new powerfull hatebear. But they made this instead. Maybe in a Zur Enchanter Human build with Aura's? And use Darkblast and sensei top to grow this thing?

The new 'Dark Confidant' isn't bad, has potential, but I hope these aren't the best Humans they are printing in this new set.

[brianpk80]

Agreed, Guli.  Based on the hype before the set, I was really excited to see what Theros would do to advance Mayor Fish but the set disappointed me so much I've been playing combo Humans and Oath of Druids exclusively since.  Born from the Gods appears to be just as bad if not worse and I don't expect Journey into Nyx to yield much better.  Kor Spiritdancer seems a lot better for Auras than this guy.  It's kind of pathetic that it would take two Heros of Iroas just to make the Theros block Holy Strength cost as much as the original Holy Strength...

[serracollector]

Argothian Enchantress is a human.......

[Protoaddict]

There are a fair number of enchantress style decks that could fit a human shell. But they wont work.

Enchantress loses to shops because it wants to cast a ton of enchantments every turn, it probabaly loses to blue because blue will counter key spells, and it loses to anything running wastelands/strip since the deck really wants to cast wastelands on its lands.

The "nice" thing about enchantress is that with all the relevant leylines you can run 4 serra scantum and start turn one with planeswalker mana, but likely that strategy will not make it out the gate. It is also just a very different deck.

[brianpk80]

Spirit of the Labyrinth might just be the Enchantress's least favorite enchantment of all time. 

[msg67183]

Spirit of the Labyrinth might just be the Enchantress's least favorite enchantment of all time. 

msg67183 likes this