Human Ingenuity

[Guli]

Ok guys, here is the card pool that is lingering in my brain right now. I am slowly drafting towards a list for initial testing. I am aiming for a Human 2014 list for Vintage.


Mana advantage, disruption, value: Hierarch, Wastelands, Strip Mine, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Dark Confidant, Noble , Pain Seer

Capitalize on the 'Human' creature type to gain massive value: Cavern of Souls, Mayor of Avabruck, Devout Chaplain

I am planning on adding full moxes, recall and time walk. I would add Black Lotus if I had one, but I don't. And many new players (or old) who want to pick up Humans, can borrow some moxes and add in some deathrites or spirit guides/petal to replace mox power, but Black lotus is not that easy to get a hold on. So let's just use Moxes and Nobles and make sure it works like that for this reason.

Power: Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Moxes


First thing I want to note is that Pain Seer does have a significant impact. But don't forget, Humans already has Cavern of Souls and Mayor to grant Pain Seer a bonus just because he has the friendly creature type. The card that is added in the mix that will reward the use of many Humans is Chaplain. He will be our Trygon Predator. With this I mean that he will play that role, but with some up and some downsides.

Ups: He also answers the critical Tinker problem, he does not need to deal damage
Downs: Smaller body, Requires other cards to work

I was thinking on adding 2 Mutavault in the mix, this will increase the chances of an active Chaplain and they are great on the offensive with a Mayor. Speaking of being on the attack, this is what you want with this deck especially With Pain Seer around. So the thought of using 1x Frontline Medic did cross my mind too...


What I would like is to cummulate idea's here with all the fellow fish deck designers. Here are a couple questions and concerns or problems I want to add in:

- What additional hate package do you think would work best to support Thalia against blue/combo/control? (in this specific approach)
- Any other idea's of 'tapping' or 'untapping' effects that are worth it?
- Got other remarks you want to make?


Cheers!

[Guli]

Lol, a lot of enthousiasme in here

Here is my first draft of the deck I am testing right now:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
3 Karakas
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
3 Mutavault

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
3 Devout Chaplain
4 Pain Seer
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Ethersworn Canonist

2 Zur the Enchanter
2 Stony Silence
1 Reconnaissance
1 Rest in Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Glowrider
SB: 3 Mental Misstep
SB: 3 Ghost Quarter
SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage

[xouman]

I would not go the zur's way. Yes, he is powerful, he is uncounterable with caverns, dodges bolt and decay. but with confidant and pain seer I feel there is enough drawing. If else, I'd prefer life from the loam (also slow, but great card advantage, complements the mana denial recovering strips, but would be better with fetchlands).

notion thief would have a place in my 75, and probably flusterstorm too. I'd like another CC1, but I cannot decide which one. maybe sage of epithyr to improve draws? He's poor without ninjas or fetchlands. something to gain life? with cities, confidants and pain seer, something like a vendillion or a delver could be a problem.

those are just opinions, i like a lot the deck and seems quite solid. better than BUG? ummm, i'm not sure...

[Guli]

You say it yourself, flyers could pose a problem. Zur and Reconnaissance solve that problem. Zur has a lot of strategic value. It is a late game bomb to fall back too. You can break aggro battles with Reconnaissance (Zur acts like a general here that signals the assault, without any risk to your creatures because you can use reconnaissance to untap if they are blocked and even if they aren't blocked you still untap at end of combat), get RIP to stop any graveyard play, get Stony to shut down artifact mana or time vault (or any other artifact win condition), or get that new Spirit in play.

*And if you really want something to solve the aggro flyers, there are a lot of sideboard options. I think it is better to go on the offensive with Mayor, Nobles and Reconnaissance.

[xouman]

Ummm, yes, zur fills that gap quite well. And you are right,probably it's better to go offensive with mayor instead trying to plan defense.

PD: how is pain seer performing? in a meta infested with mud, bug, rug and so it feels poor...

[Guli]

I do not know, but I think having 4 Bob's and 4 Seer's gives me more consistency on the 'get more cards into your hand in the long games' department.

What this deck could use is a mass haste effect. Right now there is no such card in existence that is somewhat playable as far as I know.

What I like most about this list is that my enchantments are power houses on their own. Stony or Rip in play does not effect me but can greatly effect my opponents. These are proven strong cards. The single Reconnaissance can not be a bad card in a deck with more than 25 creatures. I use it to attack with Noble or Mutavault, deal my damage, and then untap these mana sources to get another mana for my second main phase. I use it for Seer, and to simply swing with my entire squad to get in some damage. It gives me a game ending advantage. Life link or other triggers like that do not work on a mass maze of ith effect (on the offense). And Zur is the card that connects the deck with Reconnaissance, it is perfect.

Maybe I should look into more lords like Adaptive Automaton or Hamlet Captain, because I noticed how great the boost is in this deck, I feel like really aggro control with the white hate cards like Thalia, Canonist, Stony, Rip, Spirit and Mental Misstep from Sideboard. My clock is faster than I anticipated. It feels like I casually swing for some damage but I quickly realized I am in business with effective anti combo/control cards and that I don't give them more than 2 turns to get out of these locks. Mayor and Noble are shining in this build. I added more lands and cut a Ruby. So my shop match up could suffer from this, but then again they do run Chalice of the Void. So it all depends on who starts really. If I am on the play and I open with Noble into Devout Chaplain, things can be over really fast. I still have a lot wasteland effects and Mayor to spawn 3/3's while I keep their mana low with wasteland/stony. Post board I think the Kataki and additional Quarters are the right call, increasing the pressure on their mana base. There is a way to really make this deck a killer against Workshop. And this is by adding Elvish Spirit Guides. But I didn't want to do that because they are not that great in other match ups. But if you know your meta is loaded with Workshop, you should probably just add 4 Elvish Spirit Guide main deck, and cut some cards here and there.

In essence, what this tries to do is not that different from Merfolks or Delver. But I feel like permanents like Thalia and Stony are stronger as a wall against combo or control that a couple of counter magic in your hand. Control combo usually is better prepared to beat a counter wall, that the more classical 'control aggro' utilize, than having to play around disruptive creatures which are in essence also a counter wall but pro actively obviously. And the disprutive creatures do add a lot to the clock because they gain a boost from Mayor and Noble.

So while I think Bug is strong and succesfull, for me the white disruptive cards can be equally successfull to say the least. It really is a matter of blue versus white. Do you use Force of Will, Flusterstorm or other blue counter magic, or do you opt for permanents that do double duty (beat AND disrupt). A counter spell is more universal, more flexible (at least on paper), however, while a counter spell could hit anything, it does suffer against spheres and cavern of souls and can only stop 1 card at a given time. A Thalia has an impact on every non creature card they play, a permanent Daze. A canonist stops every card they would play after the first one, this is a Brutal way of countering decks that are hungry of playing multiple cards a turn. Not being allowed to cast cards in hand means they are effectively countered. Bug does not have these kinds of effects that they can throw at the opponent.

The tempo is different too, while Bug can also do some mana denial, they limited it to a single Null Rod and 3 Wastelands/1 Strip main deck. The tempo is more about drawing cards of Bob, Edric, Jace, Recall/Snap while they counter and destroy your most important cards. The tempo Humans creates is focused a lot more on mana denial and mana advantage in the early game with Noble, Thalia, full set of Wastelands and more than one copy of Stony (a harder to kill Rod). In a lot of games the I somehow get that noble in play and fire off a wasteland to put my opponent in the situation were they have 1 land in play and I already have a noble land and thalia in play, or a noble and seer. At that point the game is just started and they are already behind. Bolt is not available in infitine numbers, and I am playing 8 Bobs so I will probably get more than one sooner or later. It just isn't that easy to deal with Thalia and/or Stony and a lot of times I draw that Spirit or Canonist on top. Meanwhile the Bob's sneak in and they represent a certain dead as well.

So far I have tested against Brian's explosive decks that rely a lot on artifact mana. Stony is deadly against his decks, but he does run bounce and post board removal like disenchant and war priest. But to get those in his hand usually means burning a tutor or two. And I usually have more than one disruptive card in play and in hand. And this is Brian, he respects my builds and the reality of Stony. I can imagine that lesser prepared designers will have great difficulty hanging on against the white part of my deck. A couple of bolts won't really be enough, you will need to get rid of Stony, Bob's, Seer's, Mayor and Zur as well (because it gets lock peaces in play and the Spirit).

We will test more and I will try to write some of my observations in here. But I feel like this thread isn't what it used to be, especially since I took a break to play some Legacy.

Guli

[nedleeds]

Mass haste is either really dangerous

Concordant Crossroads

Really terrible

Need for Speed

Really narrow

Anger

Lightning Mauler is a human, provides some synergy and essentially can give each new man you play haste. He's a decent Jace killer but I don't think anyone is keeping Jace in after game 1 against a 25 creature maul-a-thon.

Zur seems like a real reach. If you are willing to play 4 CMC men I can play a Grand Arbiter, hell I'd rather play an Avalanche Rider, Notion Thief or Braids. They have a better chance of doing something to impede my opponents plan then waiting a turn and attacking with my 1 power flyer. So you are getting the enchantment spirit, to hose their card draw. Just cast a Notion Thief. Even something as niche as Rafiq can provide an immediate impact in damage. If you are willing to pass and untap then Hero of Bladehold (as bad as that is) should be close to lethal if any other part of your plan has worked.

If I want

[Guli]

Notion Thief is strong and I used it before in main deck. But you do realize that Spirit is 2 mana and not 4? If I draw it, I can easily cast it, as another disruptive bomb and that 3 power is what makes it interesting to add to my strong clock.

Zur isn't supposed to be a card that needs to have an immediate effect. Those cards are already present and are coming down turn 1 and/or turn 2. This is not the first time I am testing Zur. I already know the card is the real deal, but could not really fit it in. Now with Pain, Seer, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Reconnaissance, Stony and the RIP, the Zur makes more sense. I added the best cards available and didn't want to reach. If I would reach I would play things like Detention Sphere and Alpha Status. There are many other posibilities with Zur. But I think I was very conservative with the choices I made for the list above. A card like RIP or Stony is already strong, Spirit is already good on its own, these are already good cards and fit in the strategy. Zur helps to fill in the gabs against certain archetypes while it also represents lock peaces and card advantage. Not to mention it is also evasion and could easiliy hit for 3 damage with a noble and mayor. It is good in the non combo matchups, namely control like landstill, or aggro control like BUG, and Delver. Also interesting against Dredge with Thalia and Wastelands in main deck. You effectively can get a RIP and then the Spirit in play in game 1. These are all viable and strong lines of play.

And yes, the haste mechanic is not there yet for Humans, maybe in the future. Brian also suggested Mauler, but I am not convinced about the card.

I would also not compare a card like Hero to Zur, Hero's role is clock, we already have clock and if I wanted more clock I would consider more lords.

[vaughnbros]

Lightning Greaves are pretty good for giving your creatures haste...

[Stormanimagus]

I feel like this deck has at least 1 too many Karakas and needs more Knight of the Reliquary to top-off the tutor game. Knight has also got great synergy with Recon. Just throwing it out there. I also think you don't need the full 4 Pain Seer. His effect is somewhat niche and you don't necessarily want to see one in the opening 7 all the time. I'd run 2-3 Pain Seer and not 4. Other than that, the list looks solid.


-Storm

[nedleeds]

If you presenting a clock and sending in creatures on the ground then comparing a 4 cc finisher to Zur is apt. Since you have a plan of attacking and your only win condition is to reduce your opponent to zero I think Zur doesn't further that plan enough to justify the big 4CC.

Drawing a tutor finesse piece like Zur is a brick, instead of something like Hero of Bladehold or Exava which could help you reach your goal. You could just land a turn 3 hero/exava-swing, untap and swing for lethal instead you had a 1 power man that hits for ... well 1.

The presence of a lord when discussing a 4 drop isn't really pertinent. There are no great human lords, Mayor is barely acceptable. Hamlet Captain etc. are trash compared to the other 2CC things you can bring to bear (no pun intended) in Vintage.

[Guli]

The goal of Zur is not to further the clock, but to generate card advantage and get key cards you need in the mid game. I also don't believe in 1 copy of Reconnaissance in the deck without the ability to tutor for it when you need it. Zur elegantly connects with Pain Seer and Mayor of Avabruck thanks to Reconnaissance. You need to understand that the difference with Merfolk is that these Humans are all superiour cards to the merfolks on card to card comparission. Granting the humans a +1/+1 bonus has a higher impact, because cards like Thalia not only beat for clock, they also limit the options of the opponent. This is why I was thinking about another lord, it could prove to be very effective. The reconnaissance is like the islandwalk Merfolks have, it pushes damage through. Against dredge, you would not want an Exava or Hero, but you would be very happy to see a Zur. Against BUG Exava is strong but I believe Zur is stronger, again thanks to RIP. When playing Workshop, you would rather want a Zur too, to get get a Stony in play for Trikes, artifact mana, Metalworker, ... Not every game is played in a tight manner in the Workshop match up. Sometimes you do get the time to cast Zur and make choices with it. Getting Stony and then the Spirit does stop Staff of Nin too. These are outs that Zur gives the pilot. Zur is also stopping beats from Trygon Predator and protects your white cards, it stops Clique/Delver from hitting you. Brute force does work best against the match ups that you are already strong against, combo and control, decks that have small amount of creatures to block your forces.

Knight of the Reliquary would demand a different mana base but it could give us Maze of Ith, just like Zur gives us Reconnaissance. KOTR + Pain Seer or Zur + Seer or Devout + Seer are all nice synergies and none of the cards are bad what so ever. I like the Knight suggestions and I tried to work out a list with it. The problem was that RIP main deck didn't make a lot sense anymore, and this weakens some match ups and decreases the power of Zur.

Here is an attempt:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
1 Karakas
2 Mutavault

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
3 Devout Chaplain
3 Pain Seer
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ethersworn Canonist

2 Zur the Enchanter
2 Stony Silence
1 Reconnaissance
1 Detention Sphere
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maze of Ith

SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Glowrider
SB: 3 Mental Misstep
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage

I like it less than the other list, because I think RIP is a bomb in many match ups. Knight gives more mana denial and more tutoring, fair points. But I don't feel like you can skip the rip without replacing it with another immediate disprutor (when etb). Devout and Zur are the slow cards, adding KOTR on top could cause problems. The power of Zur is related to the ability to compress RIP, Spirit and Reconnaissance to 1 Slot. When you draw them they are castable. I have 2 Stony in there because they are critical in my denial plan and sometimes you want a backup Stony in play in case the other is destroyed. Knight does not do a similar thing, it has a land based toolbox, but lands do not impact the game as much as enchantments. I do find it interesting to play with the Knight, but it doesn't feel like it belongs in a list with Zur, because you really want 1x RIP as a tutor target. Maybe I am overestimated the anti-synergy between RIP and KOTR, maybe it is not that big of an issue. What do you think Storm?

[Stormanimagus]

The goal of Zur is not to further the clock, but to generate card advantage and get key cards you need in the mid game. I also don't believe in 1 copy of Reconnaissance in the deck without the ability to tutor for it when you need it. Zur elegantly connects with Pain Seer and Mayor of Avabruck thanks to Reconnaissance. You need to understand that the difference with Merfolk is that these Humans are all superiour cards to the merfolks on card to card comparission. Granting the humans a +1/+1 bonus has a higher impact, because cards like Thalia not only beat for clock, they also limit the options of the opponent. This is why I was thinking about another lord, it could prove to be very effective. The reconnaissance is like the islandwalk Merfolks have, it pushes damage through. Against dredge, you would not want an Exava or Hero, but you would be very happy to see a Zur. Against BUG Exava is strong but I believe Zur is stronger, again thanks to RIP. When playing Workshop, you would rather want a Zur too, to get get a Stony in play for Trikes, artifact mana, Metalworker, ... Not every game is played in a tight manner in the Workshop match up. Sometimes you do get the time to cast Zur and make choices with it. Getting Stony and then the Spirit does stop Staff of Nin too. These are outs that Zur gives the pilot. Zur is also stopping beats from Trygon Predator and protects your white cards, it stops Clique/Delver from hitting you. Brute force does work best against the match ups that you are already strong against, combo and control, decks that have small amount of creatures to block your forces.

Knight of the Reliquary would demand a different mana base but it could give us Maze of Ith, just like Zur gives us Reconnaissance. KOTR + Pain Seer or Zur + Seer or Devout + Seer are all nice synergies and none of the cards are bad what so ever. I like the Knight suggestions and I tried to work out a list with it. The problem was that RIP main deck didn't make a lot sense anymore, and this weakens some match ups and decreases the power of Zur.

Here is an attempt:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
1 Karakas
2 Mutavault

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
3 Devout Chaplain
3 Pain Seer
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ethersworn Canonist

2 Zur the Enchanter
2 Stony Silence
1 Reconnaissance
1 Detention Sphere
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maze of Ith

SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Glowrider
SB: 3 Mental Misstep
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage

I like it less than the other list, because I think RIP is a bomb in many match ups. Knight gives more mana denial and more tutoring, fair points. But I don't feel like you can skip the rip without replacing it with another immediate disprutor (when etb). Devout and Zur are the slow cards, adding KOTR on top could cause problems. The power of Zur is related to the ability to compress RIP, Spirit and Reconnaissance to 1 Slot. When you draw them they are castable. I have 2 Stony in there because they are critical in my denial plan and sometimes you want a backup Stony in play in case the other is destroyed. Knight does not do a similar thing, it has a land based toolbox, but lands do not impact the game as much as enchantments. I do find it interesting to play with the Knight, but it doesn't feel like it belongs in a list with Zur, because you really want 1x RIP as a tutor target. Maybe I am overestimated the anti-synergy between RIP and KOTR, maybe it is not that big of an issue. What do you think Storm?

I know I used to run a list with 3 Knight and 3-4 SB RIP and I wouldn't side the Knights out against many match-ups where I wanted RIP cause they still tutored up Wastes and another card you omitted that I would DEFINITELY run 1-of if I was playing Knight: Bojuka Bog.

I think the dis-synergy is annoying but not impossible to overcome. I do think Knight and Zur are kinda competing for design space. I tend to err on the side of choosing to play Knight over Zur, but that's mainly cause I think the casting cost of Zur is an issue way too often. Whether it be not reaching 4 mana by the time it is relevant or not having 1WUB when you need it (by having waste + muta or something) I just find too many circumstances where Zur is stuck in my hand or lands a turn too late.

-Storm

[nedleeds]

or you can untap and attack for near lethal ... you aren't getting vault key with Zur, you aren't getting Nether Void ... seems too cute but test away.

[Guli]

or you can untap and attack for near lethal ... you aren't getting vault key with Zur, you aren't getting Nether Void ... seems too cute but test away.

There is no garantee that you will be able to attack. But the tech I am suggesting will enable a safe attack in any situation, allowing you to brutally push forward. This idea simultaneously holds another idea. There is less need for removal. A Tarmogoyf for example can be ignored, if you could simply turn your dudes sideways and protect them with Reconnaissance or get that RIP in play. This allows you to conserve your STP for real threats like Dark Confidant and Blightsteel (if you don't have a Devout in play or on the way).

[serracollector]

can you use reconnaisance multiple times during combat to untap a creature? say with devout chaplan or something like earthcraft? with earthcraft this could generate cards and mana off a pain seer. just not sure on combat rules with recon.

[TheWhiteDragon]

can you use reconnaisance multiple times during combat to untap a creature? say with devout chaplan or something like earthcraft? with earthcraft this could generate cards and mana off a pain seer. just not sure on combat rules with recon.

It would stack multiple effects, but only untap once.  Once it untaps from reconnaissance, it is removed from combat, so other effects will fizzle.

[Guli]

I just wanted to report that I have managed to successfully get into the prizes with Human Artificers at GP Paris Vintage side event. The deck featured Sydri, Galvanic Genius. I made this choice to see how Sydri would perform in a sized event. The event was a swiss. There were six rounds and if you got 6-0 or 5-0-1 or 5-1-0 or 5-1-1 you would get a prize.

This was the list I used:

4 AEther Vial
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

3 Goblin Welder
3 Sydri, Galvanic Genius
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Baleful Strix
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Notion Thief
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Mental Misstep
2 Thorn of Amethyst

3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

SB: 1 True Believer
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 War Priest of Thune
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 2 Porcelain Legionnaire
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Null Rod

Quick report:
Round 1 I am playing against BUG Fish and I win game 1 with an early Stoneforge and SoFaF with Time Walk. He doesn't have an answer and falls behind even with an active Dark Confidant. Game 2 he gets 2 Dark Confidant and I can not get into the game. Game 3 was very close and was a matter of whether Dark Confidant revealed a lethal card and having 1 green mana open for Ooze to get a+1/+1 boost to give me 1 more damage for it to be lethal. Otherwise the game would be a draw. 1-2

Round 2 I am playing dredge. In game 1 he mulls to 6 and finds double Bazaar. I try to sphere him and slow down but it was just the nuts. In game 2 I have the graveyard hate and sphere him. He stalls for no reason (probably aiming for a draw) with Welder, Cage, and Crypt (double with Welder). For whatever reason he is now Mr. Stupid not understanding or recognizing a game loss. I had to beat him to 0 after a couple of Crypts. In game 3, something similar happens, I achieve total control with spheres and recurring graveyard hate plus Cage. But the judges call time and I don't have enough turns left to finish off. Draw 1-1-1.

Round 3 I am playing against Oath of Druids with Emrakul and Blightsteel. I lose game 1 brutally to a turn 1 Oath. Game 2 I get in a though spot but find a working gameplan with Welder and Karakas. The idea is to control Blightsteel with Welder and to bounce Emrakul with Karakas and try to put in spheres and eat his mana base with moxes and Sydri. This is exactly how it happens. I win. Game 3 I just sphere him hard and beat with Thalia and Welder untill it is too late. 2-1

Round 4 I am playing against another Oath. This one had only griselbrand and also Bargain/Necro with Draw 7. A relatively easy match up for me, with my spheres and such. I win 2-0.

Round 5 is against Grixis control. I manage to lay enough pressure game 1 with my white disruption peaces. In game 2 something similar happens but he gets a Deluge off. I bounce my Thalia with Karakas and lay it down again next turn. I am low on lands though. He then reveals his evil intentions with Tinker. I can not drop another creatures and I have to scoop. In game 3 I manage to double sphere him with Thorn and Thalia. I also wasteland a Sea. He had it all though, Deluge, TV, Key, ... but could not cast it. That is the idea. He was spinning his top for mana sources but nada. I win 2-1.

In the last round I was paired against someone with 4-1 record. For the record, we did not agree anything explicitly and played our game. It was a nice game and we enjoyed it, laughed a bit. In the end I conceded obviously. He was kind enough to share his prize with me, which was an Underground Sea in good condition.

I do not know yet how many people attended the Vintage event, My guess would be between 100 and 150, because I saw 2 pages (A4) of pairings. It could be more even close to 200.


This was a one time thing though, the Sydri, I just wanted to show some people on this board that it is possible to build a competitive deck with it and perform well on a decently sized event. I would like to play with Mayor again. It has been so long, the wolves are calling.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45737.msg633091#msg633091
See you!

[serracollector]

Seems like a new version of five color mud. artificers and humans is a good combination. i have also tested riddle smith. i think your artifact count is high enough you could test one or two. works nicely with welder especially if say you cant cast a wire thru your spheres you can play a mox or chalice and discard wire to weld back in.

[brianpk80]

Congratulations, Guli.  That is quite an accomplishment doing so well at a large event with a card that was so controversial. 

[Guli]

Thanks, Brian.

This is indeed a Human deck with a prison theme. Sydri is the Karn in this deck that can animate all the artifacts or snipe moxes. What I like is that Welder, as a natural answer to Tinker, is also an artificer. And that there is a strong plan for shop with Vials, Welders and Sydri. Just all good cards in the deck, working nicely together. The Baleful Strix and Notion Thief could cause problems for their colors (Notion a bit less because he is Human). Strix could be replaced, though it did serve a critical role in stopping Griselbrand in 1 game. It is an acceptable risk I guess. There could also be a Tolarian Academy probably.

All in all, this is a deck that can lock out the opponent out of the game fast and deny moxes while doing so. It is a bit less vulnerable to artifact/hate bounce thanks to Thalia. I already replaced the Null Rod by Stony Silence in the sideboard to further use different types than artifacts.

[xouman]

Congrats Guli! 4 caverns seem a lot in this build, what did you name most of the time?

1 misstep? 1 trap? is that about surprising the opponent or have some special meaning? I mean, I'd prefer 2 missteps in this build, but maybe trap was relevant (and it's surprise factor could make the difference)

[Guli]

The correct type is Artificer most of the time (welder, stoneforge and sydri). Sometimes you can name Human it depends on your hand.

I trapped a time vault ^^

Trap and misstep are just both for super early interaction. The list is not super tight or anything. I do not plan on further improving it, feel free to take over.

[serracollector]

Did you miss bob at all in your list or did welder and baleful strix compensate well? did you ever consider or test riddlesmith?

[serracollector]

Riddlesmith just seems like it would work really well with strix since i believe you can stack it to draw two cards and then discard one.

[Guli]

Riddlesmith and Tolarian Academy can both be added to the deck. I am sure it will be good.

[MaximumCDawg]

Hey Guli, I took your Artificer list to a small event yesterday. 

I made the following changes:

Main:
-1 Cavern of Souls, +1 City of Brass (only own 3 caverns)
-1 Karakas, +1 City of Brass (only own one Karakas)
- Mox Pearl, +1 Mox Emerald (only power I own)
- Mox Sapphire, +1 Mana Crypt
- Mox Jet, +Nihil Spellbomb
- Black Lotus, +1 Sol Ring
- A.Recall, + 1 Brainstorm
- Time Walk, +1 Ponder
SB
-2 Disenchant, +2 Seal of Cleansing (couldn't find my Disenchants, lol)
-1 Karakas, +1 Revoke Existence (ditto)

Here's how I did.

Round 1 - "Human Storm" - WIN 2 - 0

This was an experimental deck by a fantastic pilot.  His goal was, apparently, to use Notion Thief with Memory Jar and draw 7s to storm out and win with Tendrils.  I did not get to see much of his deck.  Game 1 I landed a Canonist on turn 2, which took the wind out of his sails pretty fast.  He resolved Notion Thief and the two creatures stared at each other for awhile until Canonist's friends showed up, ate his moxen, and beat down.  Game 2 was similar, with him getting stuck under a Thalia and Canonist while bob and my first striking dudes finished him off.

Takeaway: Main deck storm hate is AMAZING for a hatebear deck.  I'm so used to autolosing to storm, this was awesome.

Round 2 - Vial Goblins - WIN 2 - 1

Game 1 he keeps a hand with three wastelands and no other land.  When I resolved a vial, his plans went down the toilet.  He didn't start resolving goblins until turn 4 or so, and by then I had plenty of time to tutor up a Stoneforge Mystic and it's BFF's.  After I hit him the second time with a germ token holding both Batterskull and Sword of Feast and Famine, he scoops. 

Game 2, he gets off to a fast start with goblins.  I have boarded in my first striking artifact d00ds, and hold him at bay with Thalia and two Legionnares for many turns.  I can't find a way to punch through, though, and eventually he has three pile drivers and assorted other goblins, hits my blockers with Shattering Spree and a cycled Gemplalm, and I get run over.

Game 3, I have first turn Stoneforge into Batterskull.  GG.

Round 3 - Oath Storm - LOSS 0 - 2

I go into this match blind.  Then, he goes turn 1 Forbidden Orchard -> Oath.  Well, nuts.  He gets Grislebees and spends two turns drawing cards while I try to assemble an answer.  I land Nihil Spellbomb, which cuts down his options on storm considerably.  Sadly, since he uses Gaea's Blessing, his yard is empty at this point. This delays him.  When he goes off a few turns later, I have Mindbreak Trap, but he has a Swan Song.  Doesn't matter, he had the Demon online anyway and I had no StP.

Game 2, I get early Thorn and Thalia so his storm plan is DOA.  He does resolve and Oath, though, and I am locked out of my own Disenchant effects by my tax effects!  Buggerall.  Demon arrives.  I get Batterskull and we end up in a slow race, then we get to turns.  He resolves Vault-Key to get enough turns of his own to win.  I weld out the Vault, but he has Yawgwill to bring it back.  Tough match.

TAKEAWAYS: This deck is a ton of fun.  The one-of storm hate was amazing for me, and I think Nihil Spellbomb was very worthy of a maindeck slot.  I really enjoyed the combination of taxing effects plus Aether Vial to avoid the consequences.  I was never sure how to sideboard in the Null Rods, since it turns off so much of the deck.  I also never really got to do much with Sydria except eat some moxen in a game that I had already pretty much won. 

[Guli]

I am sorry that you lost round 3 to a turn 1 Oath in game 1 and that it was Demon Oath (karakas does nothing here sadly).

Looks like you did fine overall even with those drastic changes (you cut almost all the power lol).

Sydri plays like Karn, not that hard to play with I think.


Right now I am interested in revisiting the more original Human lists, with Mayor and so on. I haven't gotten around to start the designing because I am also working on that Legacy Human deck I am doing so well with. In Legacy it is also very fun to pilot 4x Vial and 4x Recruiter.

Power is quite important for Humans in vintage in my opinion, it is not really a budget deck honestly. Even the versions with Oath of Ghouls that I designed a while ago and did well for a lot of people require at least 4 moxen. The best would be to run all available power unless there is a good reason.

I also don't know if the new Spirit has a place in Humans. Since Humans can be build in various ways and only requires to run a couple of staples to be called Humans, you can go all kinds of directions. Brian for example succesfully brought back TPS with the help of Humans. I watch him daily (and play him a lot) so I know. TPS Humans, Oath Humans, Artificer Humans, Devout/Seer Humans, ...

Those new Junk Hatebears are also very neat btw, following those closely as well. GWB has always been so strong and awsome.

[MaximumCDawg]

The best would be to run all available power unless there is a good reason.

There was a good reason; about $1,200.00 worth of good reasons!  

If I analyze your deck properly, I think the moxen are there mostly to improve the chances of a turn one hate bear, yes?  That was why I made the switch to Mana Crypt.  I think in future I might change the Sol Ring to a Lotus Petal for the same reason.  Yeah, the deck is losing an edge here, but if I make those changes I only lose 1 moxen-effect overall, and I replace it with another turn 1 play, Spellbomb.  Artifact count stays the same for Welder.  That seems like it could work.

Even with my budget modifications, things worked pretty well all day.  I'll probably try the deck again next month.

[Guli]

I would try to fit in a couple Riddlesmith (instead of Ponder for example) like Serra suggested, also a Tolarian Academy maybe?

Not having the power is an understandable reason


Also try Stony Silence instead of Null Rod, its better versus Hurkly's Recall. I am sure you will find a lot of improvements if you keep playing it.


Why I like this Human Artificer deck:

- It can hate out the two extremes in vintage succesfully; On the one side Workshop (which is a prison deck trying to deny you mana) and on the other side combo decks with fast and broken plays (trying to deny interaction and finish you extremely fast)

- It can also control normal aggro with Stoneforge/Sydri and Strix/Welder

- Vial is also good against control (not just prison)