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Author Topic: Human Ingenuity  (Read 90682 times)
StrongSide
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« Reply #390 on: March 11, 2015, 10:21:51 am »

Guli. I really love the decks you craft here and its so funny how well the humans can fight against most of the meta. Where do you stand at stoneforge in these lists? Is it the risk of you mystic dying and not being useable or is it because the package itself spreads to too many spots? I ran a human list a while ago when I first started seeing your posts and it seemed that mystic was great. I am thinking about going back to some of these fun lists and was curious of your input.
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tito del monte
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« Reply #391 on: March 11, 2015, 11:21:05 am »

Hi Guli,

I like the latest build - I think the Spanish list looked really interesting and consistent. Just wanted to suggest one card to you, instead of Exava  - which I'm guessing is primarily a Jace killer still. Have you seen Mardu Strike Leader from the last set? If you Dash it out, it costs the same as Exava and still lets you kill a 3-loyalty Jace, plus it leaves a 2/1 dude behind.

I've not tried, but noticed it and on paper at least, it looks as good as doing the Jace-killing job as Exava. Good luck!

EDIT: It's true it dies to Bolt, but with more UW in the meta, looks like decks are packing more StPs anyway...
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Guli
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« Reply #392 on: March 11, 2015, 11:27:00 am »

Guli. I really love the decks you craft here and its so funny how well the humans can fight against most of the meta. Where do you stand at stoneforge in these lists? Is it the risk of you mystic dying and not being useable or is it because the package itself spreads to too many spots? I ran a human list a while ago when I first started seeing your posts and it seemed that mystic was great. I am thinking about going back to some of these fun lists and was curious of your input.
Perfectly viable!

I used SFM>Batterskull in 2013 and 2014 with great succes. http://www.tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?nombre=Kadir%20Nohut

Those lists are a bit different though, more control and tutor oriented.

This year I was thinking about running a more tempo list with more 4 offs in the deck. Like I said, I was inspired by this guy: http://www.tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?nombre=Luis%20Manuel%20Augusto


Mardu Strike Leader looks interesting, how is the mana investment working out? You can't keep spending your turn on this guy just to make 2/1's right?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 11:39:49 am by Guli » Logged

tito del monte
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« Reply #393 on: March 11, 2015, 12:05:13 pm »

Mardu Strike Leader looks interesting, how is the mana investment working out? You can't keep spending your turn on this guy just to make 2/1's right?

Like I said, I've not tried it - but saw the card and thought of this thread Wink

You don't always have to dash it - you can hold one in hand, in reserve, if you suspect you're going to need to the haste to kill a Jace. But otherwise, you can play it out for 3 and start getting value out of it every attack (well, as long as it stays on the board). It just seems a more flexible option than Exava (it blocks!). Only shame is that the tokens are Soldiers and not Humans. On paper at least, seems on a par with Exava.
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xouman
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« Reply #394 on: March 11, 2015, 12:22:52 pm »

I'm surprised to see exava here. Jace is still winning matches (and Dack is also quite played) so I can expect that Exava makes a good job.

I think that the only card I miss is stony silence, and maybe revoker.

And about sfm, that could help to win some lives. I count 8 painlands and 4 confidants, a delver can be very dangerous.

The good news is that you have 12 lands (plus artifact mana and noble) to pay for every criature, not bad.

Really nice deck Guli Wink
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Guli
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« Reply #395 on: March 11, 2015, 02:20:29 pm »

Well I was also surprised to see 3x Exava main deck. But guys, it is a welcome 4 drop in the deck. Trying out 3 Exava and 4 Sudden Shock actually also made me think on different angles overall. In a sense that I noticed that I was able to deal a lot of damage fast (or at least faster than the other lists I ran). Things like Pyrostatic Pillar (or Eidolon of the Great Revel) and things like Price of Progress came to mind. In short high damage cards that bring them from the orange zone (11-15) to the red zone (5-9) turning it into a kill or 1 turn clock. In a lot of games, the pressure you can deliver is high already and a spell or permanent that has the ability to deal a lot of damage in 1 shot or over the course of several turns could be viable. For now, I thought I would use bolts, but what do you guys think?
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xouman
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« Reply #396 on: March 11, 2015, 06:47:30 pm »

Your list seem to be well prepared to fight shops, and vs any other deck sudden shock seems equal or better nowadays.

There is a human I loved back in my day: keldon champion. I don't think that is a playable card nowadays (it's a joke compared with Exava), but dealing 3 damage (just to players/pws) when entering the battlefield (so removal cannot prevent it), plus being playable with cavern, are good things. But I also thought slash panther was playable and it won lots of tournaments several years ago.

Hero of oxid ridge fulfills a similar role, but probably is only better when you are already winning.
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Guli
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« Reply #397 on: March 12, 2015, 07:55:39 am »

By the way, here is an update on the Burning Humans Combo deck that I made a while ago;

Gifts will replace the FoF

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Opal
1 Mana Vault
3 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Mana Confluence
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Burning Wish
1 Recoup
1 Regrowth
1 Imperial Seal
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Repeal
3 Grand Abolisher
3 Notion Thief
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Yawgmoth's Will
SB: 1 Balance
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Blightsteel Colossus
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Time Walk
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Preordain

Have fun!
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 12:52:49 pm by Guli » Logged

Guli
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« Reply #398 on: May 05, 2015, 07:50:31 am »

Inspired from the Madrid list, I would suggest this list for the tempo version that wants more 'consistency' in the sense that it wants more 4 offs in the deck. I actually believe that top, tutors and dack add to consistency. But if you like these kinds of approaches better, go with this.

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Mana Confluence
4 City of Brass
1 Karakas
1 Ancient Ziggurat
1 Strip Mine

4 Meddling Mage
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Sudden Shock
3 Falkenrath Aristocrat
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage

SB: 3 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Stony Silence

For the more mid rangy build, with more control and deck manipulation, I suggest this list (this would also be my preference btw):

4 Cavern of Souls
1 Strip Mine
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Karakas
1 Mana Confluence

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Dack Fayden
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Mental Misstep
1 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Containment Priest
1 Den Protector
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
2 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Falkenrath Aristocrat

SB: 2 Aegis of the Gods
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 3 Snuff Out
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Trying out Den Protector and Surrak. Surrak seems really good as a 'haste for everbody' card. This basically means that your clock increases. Den Protector is a way to generate some additional value. But it also seems busted as a way to get passed a token heavy board and simply race them (noble, mayor, megamorph).

I think Time Walk is so important (nice target for Den Protector), hence I added Mystical just for that. Added that there are other applications for Mystical, you are looking for a window to beat hard and close the window with a well timed Time Walk. There is also the 1 Tabernacle in the sideboard, which is a very techy card against dredge and mentor decks. Can not be therapied away, or countered. With Thalia, Priest and Deathrites, the only real problem against dredge (bridge) is solved with Tabernacle. It acts as both a bridge removal and board sweeper.

Have fun
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 08:17:22 am by Guli » Logged

oshkoshhaitsyosh
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« Reply #399 on: May 05, 2015, 10:20:36 am »

Just top 4'd with this on 5/2 at TDG NJ. 29 players! Full write up is in the "Simians Mom" thread. I figured I'd post here too since it's kind of humanish

"Simians Mom" aka RW Death & Taxes

3 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sudden Shock
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Containment Priest
3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Plateau
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Keldon Megoliths
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

SIDEBOARD
4 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Umezawas Jitte
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Shattering Spree
1 Wasteland
2 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Revoker
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Guli
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« Reply #400 on: May 12, 2015, 08:35:07 am »

Ok, I have made some changes (inspired by the Simians Mom list).

I decided to give Mother of Runes a try and move the Misstep plan to the sideboard. I explain everything in my youtube video that you can find here:

Deck Tech 5C Humans in Vintage

I plan to go live in twitch tv with this deck. But I don't know what time it will be best for people who are interested in watching me pilot the 5C Human list. Any idea's?
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Guli
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« Reply #401 on: May 13, 2015, 05:48:56 am »

Brian and me played a match or two with me piloting the 5C Human deck and trying to give commentary while i play. I did not stream yet, but just recorded it.

5C Humans vs Tezzeret Combo

Enjoy
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brianpk80
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« Reply #402 on: May 13, 2015, 10:23:25 pm »

I had no idea I was on camera!  Thank you for sharing the video.  You are a spirited and hilarious commentator and a great narrator.  
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"It seems like a normal Monk deck with all the normal Monk cards.  And then the clouds divide...  something is revealed in the skies."
Guli
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« Reply #403 on: May 17, 2015, 08:19:58 am »

Well strictly speaking there was no camera involved Smile

It is always interesting to see the Brian school clash into the Guli school. I did make a point of it to talk a bit faster and to be just 'myself' and feel relaxed.


I will continue to make these video's when I can make the time, it is fun. In time I would like to offer weekly dual commentaries for matches on cockatrice. If anybody is interested to play a show match, or wants his match of some kind of tournament on screen, or commentate with me, feel free to message me.
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StanleyAugust
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« Reply #404 on: May 17, 2015, 11:10:51 am »

Very entertaining video. Well, the most entertaining thing is how you always complain about your opponent's luck  Very Happy
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Guli
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« Reply #405 on: June 29, 2015, 04:09:50 pm »



Interesting alternative to Huntmaster, especially since Karakas should be in each 5C Humans build.
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wappla
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« Reply #406 on: March 15, 2016, 04:40:12 pm »

Been trying out a Collected Company variation of the Madrid list with some updates. I have no results worth putting any stock in, just some playtest anecdotes.

The Meta has changed a lot in the past year, but we also got one strong new human.



He's relevant in every matchup save Storm and Dredge. Having more outs to Tinker bots is great if not as relevant as it was a year ago, but bouncing Delvers or Mentors or Revokers or Golems and the like is what makes him playable. The deck encourages opponents to play to the board, and then Reflector Mage punishes them for trying to answer the board with their own creatures. Our plan is to swing with a bunch of Bears, so bouncing their one blocker for two attack steps while adding to the board is kinda perfect. It's not the card that Venser is, but three mana for Man-o'-War is the maximum we can really afford to pay for it.

Current list:


4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Dark Confidant
4 Containment Priest
4 Reflector Mage
3 Mantis Rider

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Collected Company
2 Sudden Shock

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Mana Confluence
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mutavault

Sideboard
4 Aegis of the Gods
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Notion Thief
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Tormod's Crypt


Notes:
  • I have no idea if Collected Company is playable, and scaling back on 4cc humans is the biggest cost of playing the card. The reason for Company is that it makes the deck a lot harder to play against while providing a tutor for specific answer-bears the same way Dig Through Time did for blue decks. It's a tricky spell to play and about half the time I think I cast it in the wrong spot. Sometimes you want to cast it upkeep to find a Thalia. Sometimes you want to shield it with Thalia while the opponent is tapped out and resolve it on your mainphase. Sometimes you want to play it opponent's EOT as a way to answer sweepers.
  • Sideboard games against control you get to hold up Notion Thief and CoCo. Assuming neither access to Cavern nor the opponent playing a draw spell, I have no idea which you are supposed to cast EOT.
  • Mantis Rider replaces Exava here because of Company's inclusion. As a combat dork, Mantis Rider is much better against Workshops than Exava. Rider is about the same as an anti-Jace card. You can also live the dream and open with Heirarch, then start swinging for chunks of four damage in the air on turn two.
  • I cut the Meddling Mages because I don't think they're very good. Against combo decks you're better off holding up Decay or Priest instead of guessing what tutor/draw spell they will beat you with.
  • The Oath matchup is fine with 4 Priest, 4 Aegis, 4 Abrupt Decay. The Storm matchup is fine with 4 Aegis, 4 Thalia. That said, I have no clue what the deck is already win-more against and what the control elements really need to be tuned towards.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 05:46:53 pm by wappla » Logged
Stormanimagus
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« Reply #407 on: March 16, 2016, 12:34:24 am »


after some discussion with wappla I have come to the following list that cuts collected company for broken spells and a slightly different creature suite:

4 Reflector Mage
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Dark Confidant
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Containment Priest
2 Sudden Shock
4 Mana Confluence
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Mantis Rider
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
SB: 4 Stony Silence
SB: 3 Aegis of the Gods
SB: 2 Sudden Shock
SB: 2 Ghost Quarter
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Scab-Clan Berserker

Thoughts?

-Storm
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thecrav
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« Reply #408 on: March 16, 2016, 12:41:10 am »

bouncing Delvers or Mentors or Revokers or Golems and the like is what makes him playable.
Just curious: Does the fact that "Insectile Aberation" != "Delver of Secrets" ever hurt significantly?
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xouman
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« Reply #409 on: March 16, 2016, 04:40:43 am »

Reflector Mage seems a bad card but I can tell that Wappla got me with it more than once. It's a tempo boost that gets the edge in close matches.

I like Scab-Clan Berserker a lot, didn't knew about her but it seems awesome against lots of decks Surprised
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #410 on: March 17, 2016, 02:45:13 pm »

I'm curious to know what people think of scab-clan berserker. If you can get it renowned it really can apply life pressure to gush decks I've found and its applications vs. Storm are obvious. Thoughts?

-Storm
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xouman
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« Reply #411 on: March 17, 2016, 03:12:57 pm »

Didn't know about her (probably I saw her in spoilers and quickly forget), but I'm going to get 4x in the future. The best place seems Potucek's UW deck, with mother of the runes to ensure it connects. I also like flamespeaker (despite never having played it), but could be a replacement.
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wappla
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« Reply #412 on: March 17, 2016, 03:17:58 pm »

I was skeptical when I first suggested her to you, but she's been very good for me so far. I even think Gush decks should consider her if they want a card for Storm or the mirror. She has an awful name and mechanical overload, easy to overlook/underrate.

For those unfamiliar with her:



It's funny how similar the core of the list is to some you were posting years ago. Thalia, Bob, Hierarch, and Mayor have been a team for a while.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 03:37:18 pm by wappla » Logged
Guli
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« Reply #413 on: March 18, 2016, 12:23:00 am »

Quote
I'm curious to know what people think of scab-clan berserker. If you can get it renowned it really can apply life pressure to gush decks I've found and its applications vs. Storm are obvious. Thoughts?

-Storm

I answered this before.

Well I was also surprised to see 3x Exava main deck. But guys, it is a welcome 4 drop in the deck. Trying out 3 Exava and 4 Sudden Shock actually also made me think on different angles overall. In a sense that I noticed that I was able to deal a lot of damage fast (or at least faster than the other lists I ran). Things like Pyrostatic Pillar (or Eidolon of the Great Revel) and things like Price of Progress came to mind. In short high damage cards that bring them from the orange zone (11-15) to the red zone (5-9) turning it into a kill or 1 turn clock. In a lot of games, the pressure you can deliver is high already and a spell or permanent that has the ability to deal a lot of damage in 1 shot or over the course of several turns could be viable. For now, I thought I would use bolts, but what do you guys think?

So yea, Scab-Clan is an excellent suggestion and a good card against Gush decks or other combo decks to limit their options (aka limit their turns). On top it is pressure against planeswalkers. 2 Important roles in 1 card for 3 mana.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 12:44:24 am by Guli » Logged

Stormanimagus
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« Reply #414 on: March 18, 2016, 02:35:37 pm »

Hey guys, quick question. How would reflecting pool work with only a cavern of souls in play? Would it tap for any color of mana?

-Storm
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wappla
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« Reply #415 on: March 18, 2016, 03:28:44 pm »

Yes, it works like we want it too. Still not sure that makes it good enough. The 1 Wasteland, 1 Reflecting Pool hands are pretty brutal mulligans.
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Minkar
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« Reply #416 on: March 18, 2016, 03:40:50 pm »

Hey guys, quick question. How would reflecting pool work with only a cavern of souls in play? Would it tap for any color of mana?

-Storm

"Reflecting Pool doesn't care about any restrictions or riders your lands put on the mana they produce, such as Pillar of the Paruns and Hall of the Bandit Lord do. It just cares about types of mana."

Pillar of the Paruns has basically the same wording/format as Cavern, so it looks like the interaction works how you think it does.
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