Ritual Combo in 2014?

[zeus-online]

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[WhiteLotus]

Gush Storm:
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Talrand, Sky Summoner
1 Fastbond
1 Future Sight
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Gush
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Mana Drain
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Imperial Seal

Looks similar to LSV's deck list for mtgo.
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-lsv-vintage-gush/
I have considered playing this, but i would probably change a few cards.
I think lsv's list is terrible, actually. If you watch the videos you will notice that timetwister is not doing a very good job, and that talrand is largely useless.

Comments on your list:
Tinker/BSC is probably better than talrand.
Jace is probably better than both future sight (and i love that card, btw  ) and gifts ungiven. Gift is certainly better than activating jace once, but i doubt it can match two or three activations. Jace is also far better turn 1 than gifts is.
I am inclined to believe that the fourth preordain is better than imperial seal in this deck. I am also not convinced that academy/library is better than more islands.

I have watched his games, but like you i'm not that comfortable with his list, I don't like snapcaster in here since it has poor synergy with Gush, 1 talrand is enough, I'm not convinced Repeal is what you want to be doing, and he doesn't play enough preordains + no seal, Timetwister is not really what this deck wants at all, it's probably win more if you already have assembled Gushbond engine and it will be near to useless if you haven't. In my opinion Timetwister is better for another kind of storm deck. The only upside I see to it for gush is that it can double as a sort of dredge hate.

Talrand is def good in the deck but he's pretty vulnerable and not relevant in every matchup, he works differently then tendrils, he is far from useless as you say he is meant to play control role and is very strong in certain matchups like Bug Fish. He is less powerfull than tendrils when going off but he requires a lot less resources to do his job.

Future Sight gifts and jace are all very different one from another in this deck and I do not personally believe anyone of them is superior to another.

Future sight is a bomb that is not to be underestimated in this deck with all the ways to manipulate your topdeck and it's basically just bonkers if you have fastbond. It's a win the game kinda bomb that is more resilient to hate than Gifts is and provides an overwhelming burst of card advantage. It can play the combo and control role since It's pretty cool passing the turn with a Force of will on top.

Gifts is one of the best cards in the deck, It leads directly to the win 95% of the time upon resolution, while jace is very powerful to sculpt one's hand and assume controle role, gifts just wins you the game.

Imperial seal is far better than 4th preordain imo, because the way this deck should be played is that all you're trying to do in the early game is assume control role briefly/ stack on counters to protect your combo while digging for fastbond which should immediately transfer into you winning the game. Imperial seal is one more slot to reliably find fastbond (5: Gifts, vamp, seal, Demonic). It's rarely worse then Vampiric tutor since most of the time u'll play a cantrip/Gush to immediately have use of the card, it also makes the deck more consistent at Yawgmoth's willing into lethal tendrils and works well with future sight.

Library of alexandria helps you generate card advantage to overpower opponent in control mirrors while also helping you to dig for fastbond. It's great in the deck since even if you spend your hand in a counterwar it's easy getting library online with a Gush. It's serves a very similar purpose as Jace does in this deck.

Academy I agree, it has been a liability leading directly to a game loss more than once, I'm not sure it really fits in here.

Tinker for blightsteel is certainly an option that could strengthen certain matchups where it's hard to go off (most notably Workshops), but it takes too many slots and has poor synergy with the deck (few artifacts, and no real alternate tinker target)

[jamestosetti]

In my opinion TPS, Long and Gush are all playable, It just depends on the metagame since each deck is different and has different strengths and weaknesses.

Long is best if you are going to face a lot of dredge and workshops, since It's a turn 2 deck it can race dredge with 0 hate and has a lot of room in it's sideboard to face workshop decks, it's the best deck to make use of the hurkyl plan against shops as it can easily win on the spot, and since it usually splashes red it can use Ingot chewer tech to avoid falling to far behind on tempo and/or blow up chalices. It usually doesn't like blue decks too much and has serious difficulties when confronted with heavy control decks that have a fast clock (Oath, Tezz control). Hatebears are problematic when they are on the play and have a lot of pressure.

Gush is the best going in to any blue heavy field since it's faster than most blue decks, can support a nice control package and has better deck manipulation/ draw engine. It's also pretty strong against aggro control decks since it can't completely trump that strategy with Talrand. The only real problem for it is that it can't reliably race dredge and really has a hard time against workshops due to the light manabase the gush + cantrips enable, It's also light on the artifact mana meaning that it has a harder time establishing it's manabase through multiple spheres. In my opinion the best  plan to address the workshop matchup for a gush deck is a transformative sideboard into oath (this will cut you from having dredge hate, but you should be able to win the turn you activate oath into griselbrand with tendrils kill).

Although I haven't really played that deck a lot against current decks so my experience and analysis are limited, I'd say TPS sort of falls in between them both. It has a better blue matchup than Long due to it being able to play Force of will and flusterstorm and a better workshop matchup than Gush since it has a very stable manabase and can better use the hurkyl plan. The only problem it has is that it really has a hard time sculpting it's hand without brainstorm and so it can get really weird hands while not really being faster than gush.

Long just cannot support Force of will with brainstorm restricted in my opinion. It will just make the deck clunky and worse against blue decks. However 4 duress + baiting bombs is kinda light against decks with 13+ counterspells that require little to no investment, I think a number of thoughtseizes maindeck + defense Grids in sideboard are mandatory.

I think the notion that Workshops are somehow holding Long back is a BIG misunderstanding of that matchup. Oath and Hurkyl's recall have the same Converted mana cost, and Long packs way more mana sources than most Oath decks so If there is one deck that can play a 2 cmc spell through lock pieces, it's probably this deck (Although Long doesn't have Force of will to mitigate the effect of being on the draw). But Long get's to have a very strong sideboard to face workshops since it can get away with 0 dredge hate. I think that more than anything the Cointoss really has a strong influence on the outcome of the match due to both decks being 100% proactive.

I'd like to share a long and gush decklist, Hopefully you'll be able to input and/or find some ideas you like.

Gush Storm:
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Talrand, Sky Summoner
1 Fastbond
1 Future Sight
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Gush
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Mana Drain
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Imperial Seal

SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Oath of Druids
SB: 3 Forbidden Orchard
SB: 2 Griselbrand
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay


2.5c Long:
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Memory Jar
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ponder
1 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker

SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Island
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Swamp
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Blightsteel Colossus
SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Mountain

That was an insightful read. I watched LSV play his Gush Tendrils deck on Channel Fireball. I had no idea how to play Gush Tendrils, let alone Drain Tendrils before watching it. I still do not think I would be the best Drain Tendrils pilot, but I understand what is going on with the Gush Tendrils and Fastbond. After playing against it I realized it is heavily reliant on Fastbond in many situations. I new that the Workshop match was not the best, so I have little experience playing it at the moment. I will probably end up playing it to get a better understanding of it.

As for the TPS or Long Decision it is probably always going to be a meta call. I know that TPS has game against Dredge if it is running an effective s/b. I also know that TPS can beat Workshops, and the aggro version even more so. Not that the match is where I want to be, I just know that it is not out the question to win if I play my hand optimally.  As far as ritual combo in general is concerned a major asset of the deck has been its good control matchup in the past. That was before Mental Misstep though. Since I have been playing again I have seen Misstep in Workshop and Dredge decks. That is some pretty cool tech btw.

As far as cards choices go I do have some opinions as far as TPS is concerned. In my testing 2 Gitaxian Probes are adequate. When I use a play set they are normally my first choice to side out. They are mainly for gathering information about what I am up against grabbing the card I Tutor for. Two is definitely adequate since I can just estimate the probability of a counter and the likelihood of me winning any counter war. I also Duress, so I only really need to see their hand so many times. I would not run a Library of Alexandria because it is going to have less of a chance to do anything in this deck. I think the s/b is set up to deal with the what is being played on average today. Also, I do not tinker for Collosus or any other creature because enough decks are set up to defend against this play.

It doesn't always come down to which storm variant should I play either. There are some control decks that I might find better in the meta than any storm variant at the time. Like you said, if it is more Dredge and Workshops and not too much blue then Long might be the call, if it is blue heavy then I might play TPS, and if it doesn't seem to be wise to play either, or if I have a better option then I might play something else. I don't want to get trapped into the mindset that their is a storm variant that I should play in each meta. All that said, I will share a paste bin link to the TPS version I like to play. Here is the list http://pastebin.com/0v2MWcTZ

[XxtSundaybxX]

Long can definitely support force of will...it's been proven. Pitchlong is a real deck, as well as Steve's burning long oath deck with force of will.

I can definitely get behind playing long because of its speed, that's why I'm playing long at the moment. However saying it's good in a field of shop decks is pretty absurd. If I knew I was going into a field full of workshops, long would not be my deck of choice. I understand the speed argument, however losing the die roll can be the difference in winning the match and losing the match. Especially if force of will is not in the deck. Also Long has a reputation of beating blue decks. If I was going into a field of blue decks, long would be my deck of choice. Hands down. It's almost unfair how good the blue matchup is, force of will or no force of will. That matchup isn't won on the back of force of will/duress. They help, but you just keep throwing bombs at your opponent until they're dead.

[jamestosetti]

I have always played TPS of some sort, and I was out of the game when Long was good. I have seen so many different lists that I don't really know which one is getting referenced. I just know I am personally not looking to pack Grim Tutor, or Burning Wish. Not bad choices at all, just not how I'm looking to approach the meta right now. Is there a Long Thread that is current, or any deck that are up to date that someone can link?

[XxtSundaybxX]

I have a long list in a different thread that's recent and proven, however it plays burning wish which you specifically said you don't want to play so that probably won't help much. And my current list I'm testing is back to grim tutors, which you also don't want to play. So it sounds like TPS is where you want to be. TPS is a fine choice. I've played that too. They're just different decks with different advantages/disadvantages. TPS is a slower deck and usually picks a bomb that you're trying to protect and clear the way first. Long can have the same approach however the deck is designed to win off any draw 7 and any time and just keep casting bombs until one resolves/wins the game. I really like 2-3 cabal rituals in long, where as most tps lists play 1ish.

[desolutionist]

I agree. No Grim Tutor or Burning Wish would be best in this metagame.  Way too many counterspells.  That's why I had been trying out 4x Night's Whisper, and then 4x Cruel Bargains, before finally settling on 2 and 2. (Which I'm not advocating the correct number, but putting it out there as a viable option)

Dark Ritual + Cruel Bargain takes a Force of Will + blue card, or you're getting 4 cards. Nights Whisper almost always resolves.

[Hrishi]

That sounds like a very interesting take on it. I have also been trying out Night's Whisper in my storm deck too. Would you mind showing me what you have?

[zeus-online]

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[desolutionist]

This is the last list I entered into a tournament: (broken up for easy reading)

3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Chromatic Sphere

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress

1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 Cruel Bargain
1 Night's Whisper
1 Faithless Looting
1 Necropotence
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation

1 Rebuild
1 Chain of vapor

2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

Sideboard
3 Pack Rat
3 Ingot Chewer
2 Empty the Warrens
2 Defense Grid
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Rebuild
1 Rushing River

It is by no means perfect, but I have been winning enough 2-mans with it for me to enter it into the PE (which I went 1-2 drop losing to Smmenen on RUG Delver, beating Zherbus on Oath, and losing to someone on Junk Fish)  My fetchland base is budget; I would probably play Polluted Deltas and Islands, but Bloodstained Mires and Mountains is an interesting twist that has its own advantages.  Chromatic Sphere is pretty awesome.  I originally had in Chromatic Star, and it was the reason I beat LSV (on 5c oath long) in a 2-man tournament.  

The situation where Star can be better involves topdeck tutors.  Chromatic Star adds the mana immediately and then puts the draw onto the stack.  So you could play land, mana vault, star, sack for black, vampiric tutor, and then draw what you vamp for with the star's stacked ability.  On the other hand, Sphere is the one that still draws after a Yawgmoth's Will, which is why I swaped them.  Another scenario where Star is better is when you sacrifice it to Tinker or Transmute Artifact; you still get the draw.  Anyway, I definitely have been impressed by the Chromatics.

[Hrishi]

Really interesting list, I'm going to have to try it sometime! I have been using 4x Night's Whisper rather than Cruel Bargain because it often needed a ritual to be castable in the first place, but I notice that you run many more rituals than I do (I only run 4 Dark Ritual + 1 Cabal Ritual) so that might be where it differs. I have also been using maindeck Empty the Warrens because it's just so good to have another way to win with a lower storm count.

I'm wondering about consult, how has that been for you? I ended up cutting it from my list because it was simply too dangerous (since I usually am looking to find a restricted card more than anything else) but I wasn't too sure!

Agreed on the Bloodstained Mires and Mountains, those are what I am running online too since they are budget. Having access to Mountains is it's own advantage.

[desolutionist]

It is really dangerous but its also the best tutor in the game.  Its the kind of card that you would think a black mage would be using.  That said, it works more than it doesn't and I could see why you wouldn't want to play it.  I personally never played it back in the day for the same reasons.  I guess I have a slightly different approach to the game now.

[WhiteLotus]

Long can definitely support force of will...it's been proven. Pitchlong is a real deck, as well as Steve's burning long oath deck with force of will.

I can definitely get behind playing long because of its speed, that's why I'm playing long at the moment. However saying it's good in a field of shop decks is pretty absurd. If I knew I was going into a field full of workshops, long would not be my deck of choice. I understand the speed argument, however losing the die roll can be the difference in winning the match and losing the match. Especially if force of will is not in the deck. Also Long has a reputation of beating blue decks. If I was going into a field of blue decks, long would be my deck of choice. Hands down. It's almost unfair how good the blue matchup is, force of will or no force of will. That matchup isn't won on the back of force of will/duress. They help, but you just keep throwing bombs at your opponent until they're dead.

Workshops are a hard matchup, but the Long deck has a real sideboard strategy that just trumps workshops, just come prepared for it. In my testing, while game ones are usually pretty rough especially when you are on the draw, with my current sideboard plan it's much harder for the workshop decks to win post board, if they are unable to maintain continuous pressure and achieve total lock for a slight moment, they will loose more often then not, and I am able to create openings with Ingot chewer even while being on the draw, you force them to play very tightly unless they have those ridiculous auto-loose openers they sometimes get. It's actually the only deck I enjoy facing workshops with since it really feels like it could go either way, and you can really make them miserable with hurkyl's recall escaping some pretty nasty board situations and stealing the win when they had you cornered.

It seems pretty weird to me that you think the blue matchup is unfair in favor of grim long in the current metagame? Have you tried playing it against a deck like Tezz control piloted by a good player?
It was true when the blue decks played 4 fow 4 drains and sometimes a few duress, but now your average control deck is going to have 13-15 counterspells such as flusterstorm, Mindbreak trap and/or mental misstep that require far less mana resources and have win cons 10 time more efficient then before.

So just by doing some math comparing your threat density to their counter density (you have 8-10 must counter threats [some of which require a lot of resources to be deployed such as bargain and desire and others will feed them more counters such as the draw7s] and they have 10+ non misstep counterspells), you can see it's pretty easy for them to match every threat you play with a counterspell and fuck with your setup spells/rituals with missteps. This is why Gitaxian probe + hand disruption is fundamental to make the matchup even playable, you really have to control their hand to make them counter the spells you want them to counter and resolve the ones you want and make sure the coast is clear. Postboard it's much easier of course since they will have little to nothing to bring in while you add to your threat density with Defense grid. So while it's not really a bad matchup since you force them to make hard decisions, I don't think you can say the Long deck is unfairly favored, it will require a lot of mental concentration and very tight play + knowledge of your deck and theirs to win, Nutdraws on either side not taken into account.

I think just about any deck is beatable with Long you just need to have the right tools specific to each matchup (since each matchup requires very different things to be won, as you are not imposing your gameplan really but rather trying to play around/completely nullify what they are doing imo) and play tight but it's certainly not going to be easy 90% of the time.

Force of will doesn't really help since you are going to have to pitch a blue card that will be critical more often then not as well as making your deck clunkier with certain bombs. Pitch long is not a thing anymore, it died when brainstorm got restricted. As for the Burning Long deck it just dies horribly to wasteland and grafdigger's cage and the pitch version has no way to deal with flusterstorm or see it coming and has a hard time supporting 6 pitch countermagic with only 18 blue cards.

This is the last list I entered into a tournament: (broken up for easy reading)

3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Chromatic Sphere

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress

1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 Cruel Bargain
1 Night's Whisper
1 Faithless Looting
1 Necropotence
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation

1 Rebuild
1 Chain of vapor

2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

Sideboard
3 Pack Rat
3 Ingot Chewer
2 Empty the Warrens
2 Defense Grid
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Rebuild
1 Rushing River

It is by no means perfect, but I have been winning enough 2-mans with it for me to enter it into the PE (which I went 1-2 drop losing to Smmenen on RUG Delver, beating Zherbus on Oath, and losing to someone on Junk Fish)  My fetchland base is budget; I would probably play Polluted Deltas and Islands, but Bloodstained Mires and Mountains is an interesting twist that has its own advantages.  Chromatic Sphere is pretty awesome.  I originally had in Chromatic Star, and it was the reason I beat LSV (on 5c oath long) in a 2-man tournament.  

The situation where Star can be better involves topdeck tutors.  Chromatic Star adds the mana immediately and then puts the draw onto the stack.  So you could play land, mana vault, star, sack for black, vampiric tutor, and then draw what you vamp for with the star's stacked ability.  On the other hand, Sphere is the one that still draws after a Yawgmoth's Will, which is why I swaped them.  Another scenario where Star is better is when you sacrifice it to Tinker or Transmute Artifact; you still get the draw.  Anyway, I definitely have been impressed by the Chromatics.

This list looks really interesting I will have to give it a try with a few minor tweaks to fit my playstyle, thanks for sharing it looks pretty fun, very Black.

I 100% agree, Mountains are indeed quite the boon for the deck. In my testing having access to Ingot chewer really makes a big difference in the workshop matchup, since it let's you blow up a few key threats/locks to make sure you don't fall too far behind on tempo as you establish your resources to Hurkyl's them end step, untap and win.

Did you try Gitaxian probe? If you have, how do the chromatic sphere/stars compare to them?

Is faithless looting really playable in that deck? It looks to me that you would be better off with a mystical tutor/imperial seal in that slot.

Demonic consultation is certainly very powerful, my only problem with it is that it requires you to run at least 3/4 wincons.

[desolutionist]

No I haven't yet tried Gitaxian Probe. I've tried it in the past and never really liked it which is why I didn't start with it now.  Though I admit I was considering Probe, Repeal, and Sensei's last night.

I like Faithless Looting in theory. It's a lot of card selection in one card and enables threshold.  It had been a fun-of over that 2nd Night's Whisper I was talking about.  I wonder if a 4x Looting deck would be any good. Imperial Seal does seem good though.

[Hrishi]

How exactly is Long's blue matchup very good? I'm not trying to say you are wrong, but I'm asking how. Granted I don't have as much experience as some of you when it comes to piloting the deck, but I've played nothing but combo of late, and taking any sort of ritual-based deck into a metagame infested with missteps, flusterstorms and drains seems like asking for trouble. Yes, you can attempt to throw bomb after bomb until one resolves and you win, but many of my bombs require significant resources (such as Bargain or desire for example) and set you extremely far back if they get dealt with.

I've read recent lists have as many as 3-4 Missteps and 2-3 Flusterstorms maindeck, and I'm really not sure how that matchup is easy. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it hardly feels like the blue matchup is favored any longer? This is why I question my own decision to play combo every week, combo used to be good because it had a tough time against shops but had an easy blue matchup, but now it almost feels like no matchup is easy. What am I missing?

[WhiteLotus]

How exactly is Long's blue matchup very good? I'm not trying to say you are wrong, but I'm asking how. Granted I don't have as much experience as some of you when it comes to piloting the deck, but I've played nothing but combo of late, and taking any sort of ritual-based deck into a metagame infested with missteps, flusterstorms and drains seems like asking for trouble. Yes, you can attempt to throw bomb after bomb until one resolves and you win, but many of my bombs require significant resources (such as Bargain or desire for example) and set you extremely far back if they get dealt with.

I've read recent lists have as many as 3-4 Missteps and 2-3 Flusterstorms maindeck, and I'm really not sure how that matchup is easy. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it hardly feels like the blue matchup is favored any longer? This is why I question my own decision to play combo every week, combo used to be good because it had a tough time against shops but had an easy blue matchup, but now it almost feels like no matchup is easy. What am I missing?

Control decks have hands that will leave you little to no chance of winning, but same goes the other way.

While it is true that we live in a very harsh/hateful metagame towards storm, in my opinion the Long deck doesn't really have good matchups (aside from dredge maybe) or bad ones. It has strengths and weaknesses in every matchup, there is no deck that just straight out wrecks it totally.

In short there are ways to approach every matchup and you have a fair chance of winning against any deck, it just requires you to draw the right cards and play tight.

One of the great strengths of this deck in my opinion is it's sideboard, it's really focussed on limiting the opposing deck's disruption and should greatly help. That, the fact that people pack dead cards against you such as creature removal, are rarely make mulliganing decisions taking into account that you might be on combo + (unless they know for fact that you are) and that they can't afford to devote too many (if any) slots in their sideboard to beat you, should be enough to tip the balance in your favor

[desolutionist]

The Deathblade deck that just won a 64-man tournament plays 4 Fow, 2 Misstep, 2 Pierce, and 1 Flusterstorm. In addition it plays 2 Snapcaster Mage, 4 Dark Confidant, and 2 Jace for long game inevitability. Post-board it brings in 3 Thoughtseize, 1 Flusterstorm, and 2 Grafdigger's Cage. 

I'd say it is slightly lighter on counterspells than most blue decks out there; I've seen a lot of Mindbreak Traps, Mana Drains, and Mystic Remoras

[crywolf9190]

Hello everyone, long time reader/first time poster here. I have been playing Vintage online since we acquired our full set of power, and I have mostly been trying out variations of Gush Tendrils. I briefly switched to Gitaxian Long for a bit, but found it to be less resilient, and since there are alot of control decks in the daily events online, I figured Gush was a better place to be. I tried a version with Mystic Remora and more counterspells, but found that diluted the deck quite a bit as far as being able to go off on fewer resources. So after a little research, I found a list on mtgtop8 from January of this year that had what I wanted: Gush and Dark Ritual. After playing with Ritual for a bit, it not only made going off more consistent, but allowed me to be able to go off on fewer resources. After some tweaking, this is where I am currently at:

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
5 Moxen
1 Memory Jar
1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Gush
4 Force of Will

1 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Thoughtseize/Duress
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Regrowth
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mind's Desire

1 Necropotence
1 Fastbond

SB:
3 Energy Flux
1 Rebuild
2 Nature's Claim
1 Forest
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Flusterstorm
1 Duress
1 Dismember

I'm still not sold on Energy Flux being the card I want against Shops, it's already kind of slow at 3 mana, and it usually costs 4 or 5 mana, and I just don't think you have that kind of time in the matchup. Maybe Trygon is where I want to be, every time i've had it post board against them it feels like they can't ever beat it. 5 cards might seem like alot for Dredge in a Tendrils deck, but you sometimes need a bit more setup than TPS or the Long decks, so I just like having more cushion against them. The Blightsteel has been superb for me, and I would never think of moving it to the SB. I have yet to Tinker for Jar, so i'm not actually sure if it's good or not, but it doesn't take up a ton of space and I can see certain situations where I want access to it. I've been looking for ways to shore up the control matchup post board, and it seems like I would have to cut down on the Shop/Dredge hate to make room for more Duresses, I could also see cutting the random Dismember, as it has rarely come up.

[Tammit67]

The Deathblade deck that just won a 64-man tournament plays 4 Fow, 2 Misstep, 2 Pierce, and 1 Flusterstorm. In addition it plays 2 Snapcaster Mage, 4 Dark Confidant, and 2 Jace for long game inevitability. Post-board it brings in 3 Thoughtseize, 1 Flusterstorm, and 2 Grafdigger's Cage. 

I'd say it is slightly lighter on counterspells than most blue decks out there; I've seen a lot of Mindbreak Traps, Mana Drains, and Mystic Remoras

It's lists like that that have made me reconsider storm in local events. All the blue decks are attacking from a couple different angles and get to screw with me for little to no mana. Meanwhile I got this duress sitting in my hand that can't hit snapcaster outright and probably can't take force of will because of misstep. My threat density might get there.

Post board, cage will shut down the y. will plan while the draw sevens are treasonous with all those counters. Feels awkward to attack a blue meta with rituals, especially when you consider the shops match being what it is.

(Not that I think the shops matchup is unwinnable, but certainly not what i want to play for 6 rounds)

[desolutionist]

In order for a Dark Ritual deck to be competitive in this metagame:

1: Win or gain a huge advantage on turn 1 before Flusterstorm or Lodestone Golem can become relevant.  (Often this is through Mental Missteps and Force of Wills)

2: Deploy a card drawing engine to keep up and overpower the opponent.

So if these conditions are true, then it must be possible to construct a Ritual deck that is more equipped to establish a big advantage on turn 1 and save the turbo-Tendrils for another day.

I've recently tried a version that uses Young Pyromancer and Cabal Therapy for the turn 1 advantage AND Dark Confidant as a draw engine.  Unfortunately when playing the deck, sometimes it seemed as though the strategy had no clear direction.  I scrapped the Pyromancer/Therapy idea.

[emidln]

I've been having reasonable success on mtgo with 3 draw4s in an otherwise stock GrimLong list. It's incredibly relevant to be able to play a single spell on turn 1-2 that draws 4 cards. Opponents cannot let it resolve, and if it does resolve, comboing that turn (sometimes) or next turn is assured. That it can be played both off rituals (when comboing or when you have spare rituals on t1) and with 3 black sources (moxen and lands) after t1 is huge.

[mmcgeach]

...that had what I wanted: Gush and Dark Ritual.

Your list is like a doomsday deck, but w/o the doomsdays.   Have you considered a 4-ritual doomsday deck at all?  If so, I'd be interested to hear your experiences and how you think they compare.

[crywolf9190]

...that had what I wanted: Gush and Dark Ritual.

Your list is like a doomsday deck, but w/o the doomsdays.   Have you considered a 4-ritual doomsday deck at all?  If so, I'd be interested to hear your experiences and how you think they compare.

I haven't considered Doomsday as an option yet, but I can get behind it. What are the advantages/disadvantages to playing Doomsday as opposed to not?

[mmcgeach]

I haven't considered Doomsday as an option yet, but I can get behind it. What are the advantages/disadvantages to playing Doomsday as opposed to not?

There's a whole thread on Doomsday w/Rituals...  but some benefits are resilience to storm hate, ability to win with a single spell, ability to run an increased protection / counter suite.  Typical Doomsday lists run lighter land bases and higher cantrip counts, which in general make the shop matchup worse (even worse than gush and ritual decks by themselves).  But your list has a more typical storm mana base* and more directly fuses storm-enablers (like mind's desire and timetwister) with gush.  I'm curious to hear more about how it works and which matchups it improves and hinders.

*(tho you could probably use tolarian and sol ring)

[WhiteLotus]

It's been a little while since anyone posted in this thread so I thought i'd post to keep it "alive".

Over the last past month I've been tweaking a deck, testing it on the internet. the Idea was attempting to create a deck around Burning wish without Oath of druids and Griselbrand to have a more stable mana base and less "dead" draws when going off, trying to make a more focussed and less "clunky" deck around tendrils of agony. 

Here's the deck list

Mana base
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Mana Confluence
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

Bombs
1 Memory Jar
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker

Tutors
4 Burning Wish
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

Cantrips
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain

Protection
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Win con
1 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Red Elemental Blast

WishBoard
1 Thoughtseize
1 Shattering Spree
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

I'd elaborate on the deck but there is just so much to say that I'd rather have people in this thread, try it and discuss card choices,... etc

I'm planning to take this to a tourney soon to and see how it performs and maybe write a mini-primer with a tournament report. So i'll elaborate on it then rather than here

[ApolloGod]

I've played a similar deck on MODO and I'd suggest this:

-1 Gifts Ungiven
-1 Cabal Ritual
+2 Chrome Mox

-1 Thoughtseize (move to wishboard)
+1 Hurkyl's (move to main deck)

-1 Badlands
+1 Mana Confluence
For the mana base, I've been a huge fan of the full complement of rainbow painlands (city + confluence.) Your mana base might provide more durability, however, especially if you land an early Necro or Bargain.

Finally, the deck is capable of generating large amounts of mana very quickly. Have you considered Vandalblast in the wishboard?