Disciple of Deceit

[LotusHead]

WTF?
This card looks repeatedly bonkers.

[JarofFortune]

While the casting cost makes it less likely to be cast turn 1 off a mox, this definitely looks powerful in Vintage. It will very often be a tutor every turn, as it wins in combat versus probably more than half of Vintage Playable-Creatures. This is definitely worth testing in multiple shells. For example, this looks much better than Snapcaster in a Time Vault Deck. I like where this set is going.


Edit: I tested several games with this card in a Bug Vault Deck, and it has been great so far. It is slower than Bob, but in tandem with Bob it can overload the opponent's removal, and this card is almost certainly better than Snapcaster. It is also worth looking at in a Human combo shell(The creature type is relevant with Cavern of Souls, and with the exalted from Hierarch, this favorably combats just about anything but Tarmogoyf). Without any extra help, this usually finds vault-key by turn 5, 4 with a mox. By then a Vault Deck will usually have access to the other part of the combo. That is no laughing matter. This card is playable, although I would not run 4. It could well become a staple.

[Hrishi]

Maybe too early to tell, but this card looks like it will be incredibly good in vintage. Discard a random 1 drop to find Ancestral? Yes please!

EDIT : Did a little testing, it feels extremely slow for it's effect to kick in. It's great in defense as it can block many creatures in the format but to gain it's tutor effect you have to attack. Also it's really a turn 2 play, which means you gain the effect only on turn 4.

[diopter]

The effect is nice. It doesn't kick in until turn 4 which really hurts though. Really wish it had 4 toughness as it dies to Bolt which is the usual way it will depart this existence...

[LotusHead]

The effect is nice. It doesn't kick in until turn 4 which really hurts though. Really wish it had 4 toughness as it dies to Bolt which is the usual way it will depart this existence...

I was thinking of pairing it with Grand Architect, my favorite Non-Goblin Welder creature ever. Also, will include Goblin Welders.
or Affinity stuffs.

[xouman]

I was thinking of pairing it with Grand Architect, my favorite Non-Goblin Welder creature ever. Also, will include Goblin Welders.
or Affinity stuffs.

Oh, yes! I bough my playset long time ago thinking in a pseudo blue mud but never played them. Also got treasure/trinket mages, esperzoas, master transmuter and so. Still this card looks better with confidants, with the black color and the card demanding.

This card looks like a slow but repeatedly tutor. Inspired could be a mechanic with this and pain seer.

[MaximumCDawg]

This isn't pain seer.  A tutor effect is much better, potentially game winning in Vintage.  Why pain seer was a rare whereas this is uncommon, with better stats to boot, I have no idea.

That said... let's not get over excited.  This is a very, very conditional tutor.  It need to survive until untap and then you need to have a spell of an appropriate mana cost in your hand.  It is also too slow to get you the answers you need fast against decks that try to run you over in the early game.  If you get in a position where you are attacking with her as your clock each turn, you probably win, but it will not be very good in the early game.

[Meddling Mike]

This is a tough card to get a precise read on. It's interesting, but it seems like a bit too much work. The casting cost makes it seem like more of a turn 2 play instead of a turn 1 play. You attack with it on turn 3, assuming that the board state allows for an attack with a 1/3 creature with no evasion. Finally you get some payoff on turn 4 during your untap step, assuming you have a non-land card you can discard for a more relevant card of the same casting cost. I'm sure there are adorable cards that could facilitate inspired like Springleaf Drum and what have you, but I'm not sure I want to run cards like this in order to get something like this up and running. I won't say "never" as tutoring is at a premium in vintage, but at first glance I would be surprised if this made a real splash.

[rpf5029]

brianpk80 is going to have a field day with this card.

I like this card a LOT.  Comes down off Sapphire / Jet / Lotus / Petal + Cavern on turn 1. 
Makes Mental Misstep much better -- not only does Misstep protect it, but it turns misstep into Ancestral, Voltaic Key, Thoughtseize, Cage, Repeal, ETC.
Fetches Time Vault, Voltaic Key, and Grand Abolisher to protect it.
Not a four-of, obviously, but it has the potential to be very, very strong.

[MaximumCDawg]

She's just... so conditional.  If you build your deck around her, then you are possibly more likey to be tutoring then not on turns 4 and up, and yea, there are scenarios where that quickly wins the game.  But in what way is she superior to demonic tutor? Cruel or grim tutor?  Even vamp or seal?

[hashswag]

I'm running this with Maze of Ith in my Humans build.

Edit: Derp.

[Meddling Mike]

She's just... so conditional.  If you build your deck around her, then you are possibly more likey to be tutoring then not on turns 4 and up, and yea, there are scenarios where that quickly wins the game.  But in what way is she superior to demonic tutor? Cruel or grim tutor?  Even vamp or seal?

I don't think 1-shot restricted tutors are what you should be comparing this to. It doesn't need to be superior to vamp or demonic to be a playable tutor since you're only allowed one copy of those. I would say this card is probably closer in nature to something like Dark Confidant or Dimir Cutpurse. It's a low drop creature that if left unmolested on the board for a time should allow you to develop an unbeatable hand/board state.

I'm running this with Maze of Ith in my Humans build. Turns any land into Maze/Karakas/Cavern, too.

Read the card again.

[hashswag]

She's just... so conditional.  If you build your deck around her, then you are possibly more likey to be tutoring then not on turns 4 and up, and yea, there are scenarios where that quickly wins the game.  But in what way is she superior to demonic tutor? Cruel or grim tutor?  Even vamp or seal?

I don't think 1-shot restricted tutors are what you should be comparing this to. It doesn't need to be superior to vamp or demonic to be a playable tutor since you're only allowed one copy of those. I would say this card is probably closer in nature to something like Dark Confidant or Dimir Cutpurse. It's a low drop creature that if left unmolested on the board for a time should allow you to develop an unbeatable hand/board state.

I'm running this with Maze of Ith in my Humans build. Turns any land into Maze/Karakas/Cavern, too.

Read the card again.

  My bad. Didn't notice the non-land clause. I was already running maze, so it works nicely with the untapping thing. Hadn't actually tried tutoring for a land, but I'm glad I hadn't!

[diopter]

I think you can discard Moxen to tutor for lands can't you?

[hashswag]

Oh hey, so you can. Good pickup.

Helps find lotus/spellbomb in a Cavern Salvagers build, too.

[dangerlinto]

But in what way is she superior to demonic tutor? Cruel or grim tutor?  Even vamp or seal?

Giving one spell in your hand a free transmute every turn doesn't really equate to the cards you mentioned.

It will be hard to abuse, I think, but then i think it's just so ripe for abuse.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Too slow people! Maybe a silly humans deck would run a 1 of...MAYBE

[diopter]

Humans are silly until they top8

Speaking of silly, look what this thing combos with:
Captain of the Mists
Hidden Strings

[MaximumCDawg]

If we are discussing bad combos, remember aura of dominion

[Samoht]

This card seems great into Tangle Wire. It also makes Fire//Ice significantly better. It's still too early to tell, but I think we're starting to see the influx of Humans that Brian was hoping for from the block.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Given the 1/3 stats and Rogue critter type, it's reasonable to talk about Earwig Squad. Surviving combat with Confidant/Snapcaster is no small thing.

5/3 for 2B + Jester's Cap is fairly good. If it were costed that way straight up, it would be a staple. The real cost is having to connect with Rogues or Goblins.

[mmcgeach]

There are a lot of boarderline inspired dudes now.  The 3-drop blue one that steals your opponent's stuff is good.  The 4-drop exile a creature isn't inconceivable.  Pain seer seems worse than Bob, mostly, but isn't totally irrelevant either.  I'd be surprised if there isn't at least a strong Modern deck based on Inspired.

I kind of like these with Ral Zarek.  Ral Zarek untaps this guy, you tutor for time vault, and then Ral Zarek untaps time vault. 

This really makes other cards that tutor something into your hand better...  like Stoneforge Mystic or Trinket Mage.  I mean, Trinket Mage for a 1 drop and then drop that for Ancestral?  Stoneforge for Batterskull and then drop that for Force of Will?  There's a lot of possibilities.

[MaximumCDawg]

The 4-drop exile a creature isn't inconceivable. 

Yes it is.  Card is crap.

There are a lot of boarderline inspired dudes now.  The 3-drop blue one that steals your opponent's stuff is good. 

Yeah, this, however, is true.  Wizards R&D has done really well in finding alternative "costs" for effects in Theros block, mostly by making things conditional or require an activated ability or rare trigger condition.  For example, Devotion, Monsterous, Heroic, and Inspired are all ways of making abilities key off something OTHER than how much mana/life/cards you have to spend for it.

These mechanics are very well designed because they avoid being broken by the busted enablers in older formats.  No one cares if you Show and Tell into a Monsterous creature because the real cost of those dorks is actually their monsterous ability.  No one cares if you Oath into Thassa, because her real cost is having lots of blue permanents in play.  When you want to talk about new design space that moves with ninja-like ease around all the pitfalls of broken combos, Theros is king.

The big difference in Journey into Nyx is mostly that there are very powerful and creative cards being made that do NOT rely on these mechanics.  So we're seeing Mystic, Flameseeker, Believer 2.0, Canonist 2.0, and all sorts of other odd and unique designs. 

So what about Inspired, huh?  Just like Devotion, Heroic, and Monsterous, it is a very hard mechanic to abuse. It is either very slow or requires you to play useless combo pieces to speed it up.  Even in your best case scenario with Maze of Ith, this creature isn't active until the midgame. 

The questions for any inspired creature, for me, are: (1) is this ability good during the mid to late game; (2) is the ability powerful enough to justify jumping through hoops to get it; and (3) are there cards that give me the same payoff for less trouble?

Every other inspired creature printed to date fails these tests.  Pain Seer is just worse than Bob, so predictable no one uses it.   Even in Modern.  The guy who steals permanents seems like he's not the best ability in mid to late game; you want your removal in Vintage to be functioning immediately and preferably at instant speed because too much happens too quickly to rely on conditional midgame removal.  Heck, if your problem is an opposing creature, you can't even attack into it successfully to steal it.

Disciple, though... she might be good enough.  The ability is fantastic in mid to late game, as you can probably just win if you are allowed to tutor a few times with her.  If you're in a control role, you can sculpt your hand to prevent your opponent from winning.  Either way, it's great.  Is this ability powerful?  Absolutely; along with cheating mana costs, nothing is more quintessentially powerful than having open access to every card in your library at a time. 

Can you get this effect without jumping through hoops?  This is where I brought up the black tutor suite.  If I have Demonic Tutor, I can get any card in my deck right now for 1B.  Disciple lets me get some of the cards in my deck in two turns for UB.  Now, if Disciple survives to do her thing for several turns, she's probably better.  But she's slow.  Slooooowww.  Compare this to Bob versus Night's Whisper.  That was actually a debate back in the day.  NW gives you two cards now, whereas Bob takes two turns to get there but can swing for 2 in the meanwhiles.  Disciple takes four turns to surpass D Tutor.  Is that too long to justify running her?  I don't know.  I'm skeptical about using her in a competitive deck to replace either Bob or Tutors, and once you are running the full compliment of those cards, is there really room for Disciple?

[fsecco]

Wow, Ral Zarek is nice with this guy.

Maybe, just maybe, this is the first Inspired card that could really benefit of Mind over Matter. I can't even think what they could do together, and for a combo it seems too situational for me (you have to find him, MoM and have a card in the right casting cost in your hand). But maybe there's a deck with 4 of these and 1 MoM just for kicks.

Now, this is really good against MUD's Tangle Wire. It transforms anything 2CC into Ancient Grudge/Hurkyl's Recall. I think it's not as good as dropping Young Pyromancer against Shops turn 1, but it's nice. The nice interaction of this guy is that, if you play him, you'll make the MUD player NOT wan't to follow it with Tangle Wire. And making a MUD player have lock cards in hand he doesn't want to play is already a tremendous advantage.

MaximumCDawg, your Night's Whisper vs Bob argument seems to tell this card will make the cut, since from those two, Bob is clearly the winner here hehe.

[tito del monte]

I think this card is by far the most playable Inspired card and will slot very nicely into a slow grixis or 4-colour vault/key deck. The 1/3 stats are definitely relevant and help set you up for a longer game as she helps stop opposing 2/1s just tempo you out. Nice synergy with Snapcaster and potentially Ral Zarek - and obviously, you can discard multiples to get Time Vault or other 2cc win condition (maybe Bob becomes a tutorable 1-of in the deck for example).

Definitely like the swapping moxen for land play - Library, Caverns, Maze.... maybe even Boseiju gets a look in if you're running Ral Zarek and want to push through a game-breaking Tinker or Will.

Handling Lodestone and Goyf would probably be the main problems for a deck built around her, but that goes for a ton of other decks, too.

All in all, an awesome card. Can't believe she's uncommon. And also can't believe WOTC managed to turn round a truly god-awful block with a decent final set!

[fsecco]

Yeah, I also can't believe this is uncommon. Maybe this is them trying to make prices more fair? Printing very good uncommons?

If I had Disciple, Confidant, a Mox Jet and a land on my hand turn 1, I'd have to consider a LOT of variables to know which dude to play first. That's how powerful this card is. (probably play Confidant, but you get the idea )

[MaximumCDawg]

Hmm!  In that situation, I'd actually run this dork out first.  The opponent cannot afford to let it resolve without knowing your hand, because it threaten them with you being able to answer them or win yourself on turn 3.  Chances are they blow removal or countermagic on it, and then your Bob resolves safely next turn.

[GrandpaBelcher]

If they have removal, they have plenty of time to let it sit there before they're forced to kill it to prevent you from tutoring.

[A.-1.]

I'd sooner play Lim-Dûl's Vault than this card.

[vaughnbros]

1. This is pretty awful when your hand is empty. 
2. Its also pretty awful when your opponents have larger creatures than it. 
3. It also has no effect the turn its dropped or the turn after you play it. 
4. Its mana cost makes it difficult to cast on turn 1.

Verdict.

I'd sooner play Lim-Dûl's Vault than this card.