[CNS]Dack Fayden

[diopter]

I'd rather resolve Yawgmoth's Will, and look at what this guy does for that.

He's not mutually exclusive with Jace in any shell.  But this guy seems more geared towards an aggressive Steel City Vault style of play.  The fact that his CMC is 1 less than Jace is huge.  

Dack fits into fewer decks and has a smigdin less general utility.  He's pretty boring versus fish or combo if you have an empty grip, for instance.

Think bigger.  This isn't a card to cram into a pre-existing shell and directly compare to Jace in terms roles currently occupied by the latter.  It's a revival for Slaver/Welder combo control, on par with unrestricting Thirst for Knowledge.  It would take an extreme failure of imagination for this card to not fuel the most powerful Vault deck we've seen in years.  

This concept needs to run a few Deep Analysis. Otherwise the resolution of Will is not going to succeed as often - you need a way to accumulate more resources (mana, counters, sick spells) than your opponent!

Let's also not get crazy with comparisons to Thirst.

What this is:
- insane and game-winning synergy once paired with active Goblin Welder and robot/Vault
- a nice way to squeeze value out of your Hurkyl's/Trygon/Grudge slots when not in the Shop matchup and active Welder is not in hand or has been Misstepped.

What this is not:
- a reincarnation of the blue Necropotence (aka Jace)

[Greg]

Fire//Ice, anyone?

[brianpk80]

Let's also not get crazy with comparisons to Thirst.

What this is:
- insane and game-winning synergy once paired with active Goblin Welder and robot/Vault
- a nice way to squeeze value out of your Hurkyl's/Trygon/Grudge slots when not in the Shop matchup and active Welder is not in hand or has been Misstepped.

What this is not:
- a reincarnation of the blue Necropotence (aka Jace)

I'd run this guy in an aggressive shell with Flusterstorms, Cavern, Welder, and Grudge over a 4x Force/Jace control-shell any day.  Welder/Fayden hits the ground running with a great maindeck Shop plan as well.  In terms of recouping cards discarded to the +1, I'd start with Auriok Salvagers before Deep Analysis.   

[diopter]

Let's also not get crazy with comparisons to Thirst.

What this is:
- insane and game-winning synergy once paired with active Goblin Welder and robot/Vault
- a nice way to squeeze value out of your Hurkyl's/Trygon/Grudge slots when not in the Shop matchup and active Welder is not in hand or has been Misstepped.

What this is not:
- a reincarnation of the blue Necropotence (aka Jace)

I'd run this guy in an aggressive shell with Flusterstorms, Cavern, Welder, and Grudge over a 4x Force/Jace control-shell any day.  Welder/Fayden hits the ground running with a great maindeck Shop plan as well.  In terms of recouping cards discarded to the +1, I'd start with Auriok Salvagers before Deep Analysis.   

That shell seems like it will mulligan super awkwardly. One of the things I like to do is test decks with 5 card opening hands. I've done Welder tests with careful study effects like Izzet charm and that's where they are weak.

This guy is going to break open developed boards but it absolutely cannot be your centrepiece without efficient help. Salvagers is really clunky in that regard IMO. Deep Analysis is just a throwaway idea, it might be too clunky too.

Pair this guy with Dark Confidant or Gush though! Now that might be something, you can leverage that card volume into game winning quality a lot better.

[brianpk80]

I've gotten away from Dark Confidant recently without regret.  Trinket Mage is vastly outperforming him in combo/control shells.  It's probably a combination of the increased aggro pressure from Fish/Merfolk decks and the increased presence of Oath of Druids; Bob triggers it, whereas Trinket summons up the tools to stop it.  My instinct says that a shell w. Welder, Cavern, Trinket Mage, Auriok, Flusterstorm, and higher threat density is a better place to be at the moment than a traditional 4x Force quantity based card advantage shell.  It's the difference between "I draw lots of cards so I can repeatedly Hymn to Tourach myself trying to stop your threats" versus "I Flusterstorm your Force and then you lose."  To each their own. 

[JarofFortune]

He will probably see play, but the fact that he cannot protect himself from creatures is very relevant. I don't think this is the next 4-of staple Planeswalker.

[Guli]

This is even good in Human Oath. Are you guys sure this is correct? It is confirmed?

[The Atog Lord]

Ah, Control Slaver, how I've missed you. Finally, after many years, we have a Thirst for Knowledge replacement that actually looks reasonable.

And beyond my pet deck, this guy is broken enough that he'll see play in all sorts of Vintage decks, possibly including Fish and Combo. He answers Time Vault and answers BSC. Heck, he even seems extremely strong against Workshop decks, which is something you can't say for most "draw" spells.

Indeed, welcome to Vintage, Dack.

[xouman]

One thing I like from him is how it seems better in Vintage than in other legal formats. I mean, I hope its price would be reasonable, taking in mind that there should be less demand (but I can expect lots of commander players buying it)

[Meddling Mike]

Ah, Control Slaver, how I've missed you. Finally, after many years, we have a Thirst for Knowledge replacement that actually looks reasonable.

And beyond my pet deck, this guy is broken enough that he'll see play in all sorts of Vintage decks, possibly including Fish and Combo. He answers Time Vault and answers BSC. Heck, he even seems extremely strong against Workshop decks, which is something you can't say for most "draw" spells.

Indeed, welcome to Vintage, Dack.

I was going to post in this thread that I wasn't going to get excited about this card until Rich Shay told me that Control Slaver is back. I think I've asked Rich about every single potential TFK replacement since the restriction from unrestricted Frantic Search to Izzet Charm to Faithless Looting. This is high praise.

[Eastman]

I am certain this will be played effectively in Vintage. Welder seems like the first choice and I agree it looks like control slaver is back. But, I could see him in grixis as well and perhaps other places too. Possible he helps Gush as he fits well in that curve and does two things Gush decks need--digs and impacts a developing workshop board.

What do our workshop players think?? Yall mind if I start borrowing your foil golems to beat with?

[marcb]

I can't wait to until the day my opponent fateseals me with Jace bringing him to 13 loyalty counters, so I can get Dack's emblem then cast Ice targeting Jace and ultimate Jace my opponent within his own card. I suppose casting fire for double control magic won't be terrible either, or maybe even use his looting into darkblast and then threaten to take all of his creatures repeatedly. What  I like about this card is that each of his abilities are very synergistic with other cards played in vintage. I would play fire/ice, welder, pyroblast, darkblast, etc without Dack. He adds potential value to what people are already playing while allowing bolt or grudge to potentially answer blightsteel. Lastly, and card that brings back slaver is my favorite really. If has been too long.

[Protoaddict]

I'm thinking BUG Gush/Pyromancer. His plus 1 is really strong with gush and he can put therapy in the yard. Also i think this is the kind of walker you run 4 of, just like liliana, because it can get extra copies out of your hand for you.

Would probably start here:

4 Gush
4 Pyromancer
X tarmogoyf
X Lightning bolt
4 Cabal Therpay
4 Force of will
4 Dack

1 Yawgmoths will
1 Demonic tutor
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Fastbond
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

3 moxen
1 Lotus

[Twaun007]

What do our workshop players think?? Yall mind if I start borrowing your foil golems to beat with?

It is certainly going to be a battle, but I don't see it as threatening as most artifact hate cards... Only time and tournament results will tell that story.

Plus, he just got officially spoiled so every one is all amped up on what he can do and not what he can't do.

[vaughnbros]

what he can't do.

You mean like how hes an overpriced Careful study against any creature heavy deck like BUG fish or Merfolk?

[diopter]

The steal Golem play is obvious, I'm more excited about stealing Moxen or Sol Ring (!!!) against a 2-sphere/Chalice board.

[Twaun007]

The steal Golem play is obvious, I'm more excited about stealing Moxen or Sol Ring (!!!) against a 2-sphere/Chalice board.

How in the world are you going to cast him vs that board state?

[diopter]

The steal Golem play is obvious, I'm more excited about stealing Moxen or Sol Ring (!!!) against a 2-sphere/Chalice board.

How in the world are you going to cast him vs that board state?

yeah...

I was thinking this would replace Trygons as your Shop trump... You'd still need support from Chewers and a mana base that doesn't suck (some of the decks I'm testing are boarding into 28 mana sources with the help of DR shaman...)

Also, the usual blue maxim of "save your Force" would not apply as strongly if you had Dack in hand... You could aggressively Force the Thorn if it will enable Dack casting next turn.

[Twaun007]

I believe the card is really good and I'm really digging this sequencing below, but it revolves around having a lot of things in order to work.

T1 Land, Welder
T2 Land, play Mox, Dack, Gush, Discard w/ Dack, Weld in Robot.

I don't know if it is good enough because you will have zero land in play? Like I stated earlier, only time will tell.

[Guli]

I am looking forward to steal Crucible from landstill and maybe workshop.

[Prospero]

The first option is a bad Careful Study.  Careful Study, at an eminently cast-able single blue mana, doesn't see play.  Why do you need more of them?

Is the second option even good?  Aggressive creature strategies are becoming more and more popular in Vintage and I don't think we're going back to the way it was.  Sure, you can steal a Mox or two against the power blue decks.  Think about what you need for this to be good against Shops:

1.  You don't want to steal their Spheres, Thorns, Chalices, etc.  Taking these things doesn't shut them off.
2.  He's only good once they have a Lodestone on the board.  Which already pumps his mana cost up by at least one.
3.  Casting him will almost always force you to expose a non-basic land against a Shop deck.  Do you really want to do that before you have?

Finally, what does his ultimate ability really do?  Nine times out of ten, if you're casting a spell that targets a permanent, it's a removal spell.  Artifact hate, creature hate, etc.  "Lightning Bolt your Lodestone Golem.  I gain control of it.  It dies."  What does his ultimate accomplish? "Nature's Claim your Oath of Druids.  I gain control of it.  It dies."  

If this was 2003, and U/G Madness was still a deck, this guy would be great.  U/G Madness was a cool deck.  A decade ago.  

The steal Golem play is obvious, I'm more excited about stealing Moxen or Sol Ring (!!!) against a 2-sphere/Chalice board.

How in the world are you going to cast him vs that board state?

This.

[dangerlinto]

I believe the card is really good and I'm really digging this sequencing below, but it revolves around having a lot of things in order to work.

T1 Land, Welder
T2 Land, Dack, Gush, Discard w/ Dack, play Mox, Weld in Robot.

I don't know if it is good enough because you will have zero land in play? Like I stated earlier, only time will tell.

How are you playing Dack off just two lands?

[dangerlinto]

I believe the card is really good and I'm really digging this sequencing below, but it revolves around having a lot of things in order to work.

T1 Land, Welder
T2 Land, Dack, Gush, Discard w/ Dack, play Mox, Weld in Robot.

I don't know if it is good enough because you will have zero land in play? Like I stated earlier, only time will tell.

How are you playing Dack off just two lands? Cockatrice Special?

[Twaun007]

I believe the card is really good and I'm really digging this sequencing below, but it revolves around having a lot of things in order to work.

T1 Land, Welder
T2 Land, Dack, Gush, Discard w/ Dack, play Mox, Weld in Robot.

I don't know if it is good enough because you will have zero land in play? Like I stated earlier, only time will tell.

How are you playing Dack off just two lands?

My bad, I guess I forgot to put mox in there before Dack.... I'll correct my post for ya.



[EDIT]Original post corrected

[diopter]

Prospero: the ultimate is irrelevant for most analyses IMO.

In my mind the question is really whether you can count on using the -2 ability once or twice as a Shop trump when supported by efficient Chewers and Bolts. If so then it warrants testing since on its face it offers way more utility in other matchups than those normally marginal Hurkyl's Recalls or Ancient Grudges.

In your experience when you have a fairly controlling opener (say, two spheres and a Chalice) are you screwing your opponents because they are too afraid to use their Force on these parts? I feel as though I've died too often with Force in hand. I am wondering if this will enable more aggressive Forces.

Smennen used to beat this drum often. You need something to do after you Force a lock piece. His offensive trump was Trygon or Teferi's Realm, of course he was playing 20-mana Gush decks so it was easy to see how that plan was not always actionable.

Perhaps you could comment on this line of thinking?

[JPettie]

This guy seems really good against Dredge.

It will be interesting to see where people take Duck Man. I also don't think Workshops is worried, they are always tweaking their decks, no matter the type. Leyline + Helm Combo seems really strong here.

[Prospero]

Prospero: the ultimate is irrelevant for most analyses IMO.

In my mind the question is really whether you can count on using the -2 ability once or twice as a Shop trump when supported by efficient Chewers and Bolts. If so then it warrants testing since on its face it offers way more utility in other matchups than those normally marginal Hurkyl's Recalls or Ancient Grudges.

In your experience when you have a fairly controlling opener (say, two spheres and a Chalice) are you screwing your opponents because they are too afraid to use their Force on these parts? I feel as though I've died too often with Force in hand. I am wondering if this will enable more aggressive Forces.

Smmenen used to beat this drum often. You need something to do after you Force a lock piece. His offensive trump was Trygon or Teferi's Realm, of course he was playing 20-mana Gush decks so it was easy to see how that plan was not always actionable.

Perhaps you could comment on this line of thinking?

The point regarding the ultimate wasn't the backbone of my argument, but I hear you.

Over the course of a tough match against Shops, you're going to have an opportunity to interact with your opponent a few times.  Your choice of spells really, really matters.  Keep in mind that if you're casting him, I'm resolving whatever my next threat is.  And with cards like Phyrexian Revoker, Pithing Needle and Mishra's Factory, you may end up committing five mana (or more) on something like this in order for me to respond, counter-free, with a cheap answer. 

If you had a great hand and they didn't, you were probably going to win anyways.  If they have a great hand and you don't, you were probably going to lose anyways.  Mike Mussina once said something that I thought was particularly poignant; a pitcher starts 35 games a year.  Over the course of those 35 games, he'll have great stuff in about 10, awful stuff in about 10, and he'll have to figure out what he's going to do with the remaining 15.  I'm not concerned with the blowout games on either side, but the real games that occur within the spectrum of blowouts.  I don't think his ability adds enough.  He's expensive card filtering that exposes your mana base.  He's potentially shut down by cheap answers.

Potucek played Ral Zarek against me recently and I was impressed by him.  I'm not discriminating against all planeswalkers, just ones that I don't think cut it.  Ral is creature removal, Time Vault activations and more.  I'd play Ral before I played Dack.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Keep in mind where there a lot of shops cards Dack doesn't want to steal...but once Dack hits play what will a shops player win with lol? The baddest baddies can't come in play with Dack around and if he's unmolested he will sculpt my hand. So yeah. I like him

He also fills up the 3cmc part of the curve not fighting with Jack at the 4cmc spot

Additionally if revoker is hitting Dack he's not hitting all of the other good options. Things will be fun with this guy. Planeswalker control here I come

[mmcgeach]

The synergy with welder and trinket mage is pretty strong.  Anything that synergies with Trinket Mage seems playable to me - Trinket Mage feels like one of the best cards in the meta right now.

RU/g control or RU/bg control might be a pretty good option. 

A fun place to start:

4 welder
3 trinket mage
3 Dack
2 Ral Zarek
3 Jace

2 EE
1 needle
1 sensei's top
battlesphere / inkwell (maybe both)
vault
key
2 ancient grudge/darkblast

tinker
transmute artifact
time walk
ancestral
thirst

4 force
3 misstep

24 mana sources (including mana vault)


edit: jankiest suggestion all day: this kind of list could run ashnod's transmogrant.  Its fetchable with trinket mage, recurable with welder, makes Dack steal dudes, might even be ok on your own guy (3/3 is better than 2/2, sometimes meaningfully), can turn welder into removal, too.

[Twaun007]

edit: jankiest suggestion all day: this kind of list could run ashnod's transmogrant.  Its fetchable with trinket mage, recurable with welder, makes Dack steal dudes, might even be ok on your own guy (3/3 is better than 2/2, sometimes meaningfully), can turn welder into removal, too.

Lol, I had to look that card up.