[CNS]Dack Fayden

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

You're forgetting yawgmoths will

[Twaun007]

I also don't think Workshops is worried, they are always tweaking their decks, no matter the type.

This is the best part. Just like blue mages, we workshop players are always thinking and brewing up new technology.

Keep in mind where there a lot of shops cards Dack doesn't want to steal...but once Dack hits play what will a shops player win with lol? The baddest baddies can't come in play with Dack around and if he's unmolested he will sculpt my hand.

I find this is very interesting..... For instance, how successful will Dack be vs a TerraNova style Shop deck?

Additionally if revoker is hitting Dack he's not hitting all of the other good options.

For sure, but in order to include Dack you have to take other successful and time tested cards out. It will be interesting to see how the blue decks are going to squeeze this guy in.

Things will be fun with this guy.

Absolutely! And I say that as a Workshop player too. It will be exciting trying to climb over another speed bump Wizards set in our path.

[Grand Inquisitor]

that his CMC is 1 less than Jace is huge

Agreed, I think this is a pretty big deal.  Not just "playable" but possibly a significant realignment of format power rankings.

workshop players are always thinking and brewing up new technology

This is certainly true.  But it's also true that workshop is the least nimble archetype to adapt since the range of options is limited by its mana base.  It's really hard to predict what effect this will have (eg, 4x Trinisphere making TPS good), but 'steal your lodestone' is pretty backbreaking, even for stuff like Terra Nova.  It being in red doesn't bode well for shops either.

[diopter]

If I wanted to go about a 4 Dack control deck I'd probably actually not go the Welder route, but instead double down on Snapcasters. The latter is not dead without Dack, allowing for smoother hands.

24 mana (16 land / 8 artifacts)

1 Ancestral
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic
1 Vampiric
1 Time Walk

4 Dack Fayden
4 Jace
4 Snapcaster
4 Burning Wish

1 BSC
1 Vault
1 Key

4 Force of Will
6 other counters
2 metagame slots (Lightning Bolts probably?)

SB:
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Thoughtseize

0-2 of Toxic Deluge, Grapeshot and Shat Spree

[The Atog Lord]

Jace isn't good because any one of his abilities is broken; he's good because he has multiple powerful abilities. Lili, while I think she may eventually see Vintage play, has the drawback that her discard ability isn't as relevant in Vintage as it is in other formats. But Dack has two abilities not unlike Jace's abilities. Dack can dig into your deck, and Dack can handle opposing threats. He's the first Planeswalker since Jace that can do both of these. Perhaps he can't do this as well as Jace can, but don't underestimate the difference between 3 and 4 mana.

[Saya]

Activating his first ability onto opp can be seen after Waste Not is released

[diopter]

One really cool thing about Dack in the control mirror is if you +1 on the first turn, you can afford to ditch mana because you can -2 for it the next turn.

That's a neat way to accumulate resource advantage over your opponent, since a lot of control mirrors come down to that.

[vaughnbros]

Jace isn't good because any one of his abilities is broken; he's good because he has multiple powerful abilities. Lili, while I think she may eventually see Vintage play, has the drawback that her discard ability isn't as relevant in Vintage as it is in other formats. But Dack has two abilities not unlike Jace's abilities. Dack can dig into your deck, and Dack can handle opposing threats. He's the first Planeswalker since Jace that can do both of these. Perhaps he can't do this as well as Jace can, but don't underestimate the difference between 3 and 4 mana.

I don't follow this logic.

Jace has 3 relevant abilities the turn you drop him against nearly every deck in the format, fateseal, brainstorm, and unsummon.  Jace also has an Ultimate that wins the game 99% of the time.

Dack really only has one ability against about half the meta, which is careful study.  Any deck thats not shops or running tinker doesn't really care since all you can really steal is a tapped mox (since they will tap it in response).  His ultimate is pretty much completely useless.  

Liliana has two strong abilties against most of the meta, necrogen mists and diabolic edict.  Her ultimate is also pretty much useless.

Tezz 1.0/2.0 and Ral Zarek have all proven to have 2 powerful abilities and solid ultimates in time vault decks.

Even though his +1 is strong his other abilities are too circumstantial and they limit his power level.  As such Dack's abilities seem to lump him into the already planeswalker heavy category with the Tezz's and Ral.  Maybe theres a decent planeswalker time vault deck to be brewed.

So can we please stop comparing him to Jace now?  They are not even close.

[vaughnbros]

One really cool thing about Dack in the control mirror is if you +1 on the first turn, you can afford to ditch mana because you can -2 for it the next turn.

That's a neat way to accumulate resource advantage over your opponent, since a lot of control mirrors come down to that.

You already need to be in a good position on mana to be able to drop him + have counter magic up to prevent your opponent from going drain into Jace.

[dangerlinto]

edit: jankiest suggestion all day: this kind of list could run ashnod's transmogrant.  Its fetchable with trinket mage, recurable with welder, makes Dack steal dudes, might even be ok on your own guy (3/3 is better than 2/2, sometimes meaningfully), can turn welder into removal, too.

Is that more or less Janky than Liquimetal Coating?

[diopter]

One really cool thing about Dack in the control mirror is if you +1 on the first turn, you can afford to ditch mana because you can -2 for it the next turn.

That's a neat way to accumulate resource advantage over your opponent, since a lot of control mirrors come down to that.

You already need to be in a good position on mana to be able to drop him + have counter magic up to prevent your opponent from going drain into Jace.

This is true. I guess I was just trying to illustrate that you can derive virtual resource advantage (instead of a quality edge) even if the +1 ability is "just" Careful Study.

[Protoaddict]

I think the argument can be made that Dack can be better than Jace in a deck that seeks to abuse his particular abilities and also based on a heavy shops meta. I know that is a pretty bold thing to say but i think it may be true.

Here are the cards and combos I really want to use with Dack though:

Cabal Therapy + Young Pyromancer
Crucible of worlds + Fastbond + Gush
Squee, Goblin Nabob

I'm not sure that Squee has ever seen vintage play but he does turn Dack into DRAW 2 every turn, which is freaking fantastic. Squee can have other uses in that list too if look for them. What about something like this?

4 Dack Fayden
4 Force of will
4 Gush
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Trinket mage
1 Snapcaster mage
3 Cabal therapy
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Spell pierce
2 Flusterswarm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Tinker
1 Blightsteel
2 Lightning bolt
1 fire // ice
1 Senseis divining top
1 Crucible of worlds

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Stripmine
1 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Underground sea
1 Mountain

[vaughnbros]

I think the argument can be made that Dack can be better than Jace in a deck that seeks to abuse his particular abilities and also based on a heavy shops meta. I know that is a pretty bold thing to say but i think it may be true.

Sure in a vacuum he could be slightly better in a deck with a large number of cards that function from your graveyard.  Just like in a vacuum tezz 2.0 is slightly better in a deck sporting 20+ artifacts.  However, Jace would still be good in both of those decks since Jace is good in every deck that can cast him.  Also Jace's power isn't hurt by graveyard hate, like Dack in the first example, or by artifact hate, like Tezz 2.0 is in the second example.  This may make Jace still more powerful even in these archetypes.  As such every deck running Dack will also want to find space for Jace.

As to the list you posted you would definitely need more removal for Deathrite shamans since that card single handedly breaks all your combos.

[fsecco]

Fayden can be ultra good against Shops. No only can he steal MUD's beaters (except Factory), but he also can steel something to up your permanent count against Tangle Wire - even Tangle Wire itself - having to remove a fading counter before tapping is goooood.

[ifh]

Ok, against workshops it is a control magic for 3 mana.  As a workshop player, I don't care.  I'm actually more worried about ral zarek than I am about this card because Ral can win the game and kill my golem.  You gaining control of my golem doesn't win anything really.  The loss of my creature is negated by the fact that you are still paying extra mana for your spells. 

It is good, flexible, reasonably cost but it is not abusively good.  It is not better than jace, though it might be better than jace in match ups that involve tinker and blightsteel.  I think you blue players are really getting ahead of yourself with how good Dack is, especially vs workshop.  I think this card is great in the blue mirror match and ok vs everything else.  It's actually awful vs. dredge unless they somehow leave 1 or less cards in their library.  

now the shops decks that run kulthoda forgemaster (I don't run this trash) might actually be worried about this card.  The format goes back to the good version of MUD, with slash panthers and rishidan ports.  

[Eastman]

I'm not sure that Squee has ever seen vintage play but he does turn Dack into DRAW 2 every turn, which is freaking fantastic. Squee can have other uses in that list too if look for them.

Squee used to be a common play in Vintage. He showed up in survival decks, worldgorger combo, and madness. The latter used bazaar as their draw engine. Not sure it would be viable in this meta, but Dack would have been a good enabler for the old school bazaar-engine decks.

[Protoaddict]

It's actually awful vs. dredge unless they somehow leave 1 or less cards in their library.

And which walker are we all using that is amazing against Dredge? I think this is a non argument, we accept that not every card in our deck is good in every match up, and specifically not dredge.

[The Atog Lord]

Vaugn, a three-mana Jace would probably be better than this fellow. But we don't have a three-mana Jace. And the difference between 3 and 4 mana in Vintage is huge. I think that one-mana difference cannot be overstated.

[TheWhiteDragon]

FYI, he's already $45 before shipping.  I think he'll hit $100 each once it reaches ebay.  I was hoping to nab some as the next Jace, but it seems he's already starting at double what jace did (without being as good as jace)

[Protoaddict]

I realize this is very corner case, but he can also be pitched to pyrokinesis, which is a shockingly useful card in a meta filled with workshop boards that are filled with Lodestones and Revokers, Mono white boards killed with X/1s, Pyromancer games states, etc.

I don't think that puts him over the top but it certainly is a nudge in his favor as well considering you can probably hit critical mass on red and blue spells with a gold walker filling up 4 slots.

[mmcgeach]

FYI, he's already $45 before shipping.  I think he'll hit $100 each wants it reaches ebay.  I was hoping to nab some as the next Jace, but it seems he's already starting at double what jace did (without being as good as jace)

Could be really bad news if this Conspiracy set is ~approx the size of Modern Masters...

[vaughnbros]

Vaugn, a three-mana Jace would probably be better than this fellow. But we don't have a three-mana Jace. And the difference between 3 and 4 mana in Vintage is huge. I think that one-mana difference cannot be overstated.

You can't just compare CMC since he also costs red mana.  This restricts him to only decks that run red and even within those decks he is most likely exposing a non basic.  

I'm simply trying to point out that he only has 1 ability against half the field.  While that ability happens to be very good, I don't think its enough to immediately deem him a great card.  

Also when we are comparing him to other walkers he is completely unexplored territory:
1. He can't protect himself against non shop decks since he does nothing to stop bobs, cliques, trinket mages, goyfs, delvers, ect. from beating him down.  In situations where you are behind he is basically rendered down to a careful study that gains you some life.  The only other playable walker that can't protect itself is Tezz 1 and he wins you the game if unmolested after a single turn.  
2. He doesn't actually generate you card advantage only card quality.  There are literally no playable walkers that this is true for as of now.

He may be good in particular metagames, but due to his weaknesses I find it hard to believe hes going to have a significant impact on the format as a whole.

[The Atog Lord]

1. 1RU isn't much worse than 1UU in a deck that is built to be heavily blue/red.

2. While Dack doesn't defend himself against non-artifact creatures, many decks don't run those, and Red is a great color for that scenario.

3. Dack generates card advantage with his -2 ability. Don't underestimate the significance of stealing a Mox or a Sol Ring.

[gkraigher]

This card is not worth $45.  It's going to go down, way down.  It is only good in vintage and maybe some edh decks.   I have a feeling conspiracy is going to be loaded with goodies.  The card is worth $10-15, and probably less than that.  But by all means, feel free to line up at the trough pigs.  (I mean no offense to anyone by using the word pig, just a saying about greed and tunnel vision).

[TheWhiteDragon]

The fact that you need to be UR instead of Ux like Jace should limit demand...hopefully that drives price down.  On a side note, does anyone think it odd that Volcanic (while not even close to the most played color combo) is now the most expensive dual (almost quadrupling in price this year alone)...and now this guy gets spoiled.  Anyone else smell insider-trading shenanigans???

[vaughnbros]

1. 1RU isn't much worse than 1UU in a deck that is built to be heavily blue/red.

Most decks are heavily U not necessarily heavily U and R.  You are placing more restrictions on the decks he is capable of being played in.

2. While Dack doesn't defend himself against non-artifact creatures, many decks don't run those, and Red is a great color for that scenario.

I'm not even sure we are playing the same format.  Well over 50% of the field runs non-artifact creatures.  BUG fish and merfolk, the two decks that won the largest tournaments of the past year, are both loaded with non-artifact creatures.

FYI, he's already $45 before shipping.  I think he'll hit $100 each wants it reaches ebay.  I was hoping to nab some as the next Jace, but it seems he's already starting at double what jace did (without being as good as jace)

Could be really bad news if this Conspiracy set is ~approx the size of Modern Masters...

He is not modern legal and won't be as good in legacy as vintage.  I wouldn't worry about the price too much.

[gkraigher]

This card has ZERO to do with the new price of Volcanic Island.  Volcanic Island is played in Show and Tell, RUG Delver and WUR Delver in legacy.  Three extremly popular archetypes.  

Also, all 10 fetchlands will be reprinted in the next year, so that has an inflating price on dual lands as well.  If anything, that is the real insider trading going on.  A card that is playable in Vintage and no other formats does not affect the price of dual lands.  

Let me repeat this, the card is only playable in Vintage, and even then that is all that is it.  It is playable.  It is not amazing, or broken, or format warping, simply playable.  

It is terrible in every other format, most of which it isn't even legal.  They could have printed this card in standard if they wanted to.  

[mmcgeach]

I can tell you he's good in EDH.  Not amazing, but Steal Artifact is good in that format and this guy is that + cost reduction + upside.  I think the extent to which EDH effects prices on rare casual staples is sort of moderate ...  driving the (moderate) price on a few rare cards like doubling season which see literally no competitive play anywhere.

[fsecco]

I still think he's good against Shops. Stealing MUD's creatures makes the tempo the deck gains seem less relevant, since you don't have a 5/3 beating you to a pulp.

Also, his +1 helps you dig for answers, specially game 1, where there are a lot of useless stuff against MUD you can simply discard (Flusterstorm, etc). Also, Ancient Grudge likes him. ALSO, his second color is RED. Why is this relevant? Mountain is actually a played basic land. So fetching for red to play him against MUD is something very, very doable.

And I wouldn't underestimate his usefulness against Tangle Wire.

That said, the main challenge for this guy against MUD is just like everything else: having mana to play him.

[gkraigher]

it's certainly a fine card vs shops, but it's not like you play him and it's game over against them.  Far from it.  It doesn't not win the game like other cards in your deck could.