[CNS]Dack Fayden

[serracollector]

Next to my Thalia and Stoneforges in my White Stax.  Bring it on Dack, bring it on.

(stops time vault btw  )

[Demagoguery]

The fact is that Dack makes impossible for MUD to put a clock on the game without Revoker.

You know some of them still play things like Forgemaster, so trying to steal something can just result in them sacrificing it to pull a bigger threat out. Additionally they still have Factories, so activating Dack to steal a Moxen can often times just lead to a dead Dack the next turn. Staff of Nin is another card that basically just kills Dack, although if you use him to take Staff you're not really upset anyway I guess. Batterskull just bounces in response to him trying to take it.

I'm sure there are a ton of other cards that deal with Dack, and even without them you only gain up to two artifacts from activating Dack, over the course of three turns. I just feel like they have enough ability to get around him.

[Smmenen]

There is alot of hyperbole in different directions in this thread.   Dack is Vintage playable, will see plenty of Vintage play, will impact the Workshop matchup, will make Revoker more valuable and important, but I wouldn't go further than these measured statements. 

[MaximumCDawg]

There is alot of hyperbole in different directions in this thread.   Dack is Vintage playable, will see plenty of Vintage play, will impact the Workshop matchup, will make Revoker more valuable and important, but I wouldn't go further than these measured statements. 

Is this a preview of your coming So Many Insane Plays podcast about JOU?  I really can't wait to see what you and Kevin say about the cards, and about a decent set finally coming out.  Makes my commute or workout much more enjoyable.

P.S. Please take a peek through the threads here before you guys cast, because oftentimes there are interesting questions or interactions raised on the Drain.  I, for one, would really value your take and Kevin's take on those discussions.

[enderfall]

There is alot of hyperbole in different directions in this thread.   Dack is Vintage playable, will see plenty of Vintage play, will impact the Workshop matchup, will make Revoker more valuable and important, but I wouldn't go further than these measured statements. 

Is this a preview of your coming So Many Insane Plays podcast about JOU?  I really can't wait to see what you and Kevin say about the cards, and about a decent set finally coming out.  Makes my commute or workout much more enjoyable.

P.S. Please take a peek through the threads here before you guys cast, because oftentimes there are interesting questions or interactions raised on the Drain.  I, for one, would really value your take and Kevin's take on those discussions.

Dack is in Conspiracy, so I don't know if the SMIP podcast will lump Dack in with their JOU review when there could be other playables in Conspiracy (for the record, 15 Conspiracy cards will be in Vintage Masters, possibly indicating other Vintage-playable cards in the set).

[diopter]

The SMIP twitter account said they'd reciew Dack.

[Saya]

Fsecco,
In the former example,Kuldotha must give up activating its ability into Sundering Titan in his turn.
The latter example amounts to saying that I get a mox while he loses it.

Anyway,MUD misses something.

[Smmenen]

The SMIP twitter account said they'd reciew Dack.

We reviewed it in our last podcast, but we also touch on it in our conspiracy podcast that we recorded tonight.  I stand by our initial assessment.  This card is definitely Vintage playable.  I found him really good against Workshops in testing so far.  He's most comparable to Trygon Predator, with the advantage that he takes a card immediately rather than in the next attack step. 

[gkraigher]

If this card starts being played, all I have to do is play a land in my sideboard to negate it--homeward path.  You invest mana, I play a land.  I'm still much more afraid of tyrgon predator than this card as a MUD pilot. 

[Meddling Mike]

If this card starts being played, all I have to do is play a land in my sideboard to negate it--homeward path.  You invest mana, I play a land.  I'm still much more afraid of tyrgon predator than this card as a MUD pilot.  

If this card Trygon Predator starts being played, all I have to do is play a land in my sideboard to negate it--homeward path Maze of Ith.  You invest mana, I play a land.  I'm still much more afraid of tyrgon predator Dack Fayden than this card as a MUD pilot.  

Seriously, if you want to dedicate sideboard slots to negating 1 part of 1 ability on one of my 3cc spells (I can still careful study or steal your non-creature artifacts) then go for it champ.

[gkraigher]

That's actually a good point.

Maze of Ith might just be great in this format.  Delver, Goyf, Griselbrand, All shops creatures, those pesky merfolk, and the infamous trygon predator.  Really great advice.  Thanks for that. 

I think you are right, that going 1 for 1 is generally not the correct way to go.  But if it is your game plan of attack against my deck, that is a different story.  You can have answers to things like pithing needle and revoker, but I doubt you will also have room for cards like wasteland in your deck, so silver bullets are still really good. 

[Meddling Mike]

I think you are right, that going 1 for 1 is generally not the correct way to go.  But if it is your game plan of attack against my deck, that is a different story.  You can have answers to things like pithing needle and revoker, but I doubt you will also have room for cards like wasteland in your deck, so silver bullets are still really good. 

I don't even think Homeward Path is going 1 for 1 with Dack. It's significantly reducing his effectiveness, but I can still steal your Crucibles, your Sol Ring, your moxes, your mana crypt. Even stuff that's less impressive to steal like Spheres, Tangle Wire and Smokestack is fine. The careful study ability is also fine, as I'd imagine that most decks that would run Dack have some way to abuse that. I'd imagine stealing your creatures and beating you to death with them is a potential path to victory for a deck with Dack in it, but I doubt it would be the primary game plan. I'm probably using Goblin Welder to bring in something scary that I discarded to the +1 ability, which Homeward Path is going to look silly against. For a sideboard slot(s), I think I'd be looking for more bang for my buck.

[gkraigher]

homeward path is still a land (costs 0 and cannot be countered), taps for mana, and can surprisingly trump dack after you invest in him and use his ability to steal a golem.  I don't know, it deserves testing.  I don't think taking up sideboard slots with additional lands is all that bad either, because in the mirror match you generally don't want sphere effects.  Side boarding in a land for a sphere makes sense in the mirror, especially on the draw.  

The problem with maze of ith is that it doesn't tap for mana.  That is why it got cut years ago and I hadn't even considered it until you mentioned it Meddling Mike.  It seems like it could be good today due to the influx of creature based decks in the format.  

[gkraigher]

First big tournament with 90+ players, and 0 in the top 8.  I know progress takes time, but he certainly failed his first big test when people were piloting him at the event. 

[Bibendum]

I lost a win and in on Dack and there was another person in the same boat. He was a success all day and it showed when I played 71/75 to win the 20 man. I hope people sleep on him. Without an early response the card filtering becomes amazing

[MaximumCDawg]

First big tournament with 90+ players, and 0 in the top 8.  I know progress takes time, but he certainly failed his first big test when people were piloting him at the event. 

Vintage is a rough format for cards.  Dack passes the "playable" test with flying colors, but that doesn't mean he necessarily earns a spot in the 75 unless the deck specifically wants his combination of effects.  He'll get there eventually.  He's getting playing in Legacy RUG, for example.

[Guli]

I have been testing Dack in Legacy and I can tell you the card is insane. Will not take long before it spikes up, better get them now.

Dack and Liliana with Squee's is a thing. I am using a 4C list with Grand Abolisher to ensure your PW'ers resolve and ensure you can steal Top, Equipment, Vial, Revokers, Strix and other targets that randomly pop up (all without them able to respond thanks to Abolisher). A common situation is that you have a Grand Abolisher and they have a Stoneforge. They realize they can't tap SFM on your turn, so they do it on their own. This is the perfect moment to steal the equipment.

Notion Thief and Dack is also something that works great when they least expect it. You can first steal their brainstorm and follow it up with a Dack targeting them. (in total they lost 4 cards in hand and you have drawn 5) I am also using Brago to blink back Dack and Liliana and all the other targets since you can blink back any permanents including itself. Recruiter into Brago into more value is interesting. The list is a work in progress and you can find it in my profile links.

[Montolio]

Well i had Dack played against me in two Daily Events on modo this weekend past, while i was on Forgemaster MUD.
All i can say is when Dack resolved it was gg both times I saw him.
It stole my biggest creature and I was unable to attack into it to kill Dack.
The second time I had a wurmcoil in hand with nothing but spheres on the table. Of course i couldn't cast the wurmcoil for fear of it being stolen.
It is pretty feasable to cast this card at 3. Seem very good to me and as a MUD player I fear this card greatly.
Makes me want to start playing Revoker's.

[gkraigher]

I firmly believe all MUD decks should have 4 phyrexian revokers.  The card is basically a sinkhole against moxes, and it shuts down major themes like planeswalkers, auriok salvagers, time vault and forgemaster.  Now I don't play forgemaster personally, I've never liked him and I think that version of MUD has gotten worse since Dack's printing.  But, then again, that deck also just won the NYSE.  

[MaximumCDawg]

It's better than Sinkhole; it's Sinkhole + Rampant Growth. That's the biggest reason I think Dack is destined for greatness in Vintage in particular.

[gkraigher]

I was referring to phyrexian revoker

[Samoht]

I was referring to phyrexian revoker

Revoker is a great card for Shops. No one disagrees.

Dack is best when he comes down the turn AFTER they play their relevant threat. Of course, if they proactively Revoker you have to respond to that. However, Revoker IS very fragile and any deck playing deck should have at minimum Lightning Bolt + Fire/Ice or Izzet Charm + an artifact counter/bounce (Steel Sabotage/Hurkyl's Recall) that all cost less than Dack and can easily be played EoT and then you untap into Dack. I kept Welding in the opposing Revokers and letting my opponent choose which to Revoke and then dealt with it accordingly. I didn't pull the trigger because I couldn't fix the Ritual match up, but Dack wasn't the problem at all.

[Coopes]

Is MUDs best answer really revoker here? If I have landed this card vs MUD online, I've won 100% of the time. I'm wondering what their best bet is to tackle it, if any ?

Is the general idea just letting a Dack resolve in the first play through the spheres/disruption is the problem?

[Smmenen]

Slash Panther :p

[TheWhiteDragon]

If the opponent (playing Dack) plays Dack after you land a golem, then he is paying 4+ mana at sorcery speed - which should almost never be available to them in any good MUD build with wastes, spheres, and tangles.  If they play Dack BEFORE golem, they will often try to snag your sol ring, tangle, etc to gain the mana advantage.  This puts Dack @ 1 loyalty, and then casting ANY creature, like golem off workshop + next land drop, will kill Dack before he can get back to 2 loyalty and steal an artifact again.  Many times the dack player won't +1 first, because they are trying to swing the mana balance as fast as possible, denying MUD bigger plays and digging themselves out of spheres.  Dack is a nuisance, but not so brutal.  The only real problem is when you don't have chalice or spheres out and they lucksack into topdeck lotus to cast Dack and steal your golem.  If the Dack player is on the play, they CAN land, mox, mox, cast Dack, and that hurts...but that's double mox and Dack in their opening 7.

 If they are on the draw, they really shouldn't be in the game after your initial play.  I played a shop deck yesterday, and both games when shop was on the play, they won.  The first game went shop, mox, chalice, golem...followed by 2 metamorphs on golem the next couple turns.  The second game started sphere, thorn off shop + mana crypt, followed up by a topdeck golem, followed by a tangle wire and wasteland.  In both games I wouldn't have had the mana to cast nature's claim let alone Dack...and that's how that matchup should and typically does go.

The one window I can see is with FoW countering a golem and MUD not having chalice.  Then the Dack player gets to play land, mox and a spell. MUD should then be playing another golem, tangle, sphere, etc on turn 2 - keeping the blue mage off Dack mana.  Again, the only other option is FoW#2 on the 2nd turn play of whatever lock piece MUD plays.

So barring double FoW, being on the play with multiple pieces of jewelry (or lotus), or MUD having to mull into oblivion or keeping an awful hand, Dack should never hit the table vs MUD.  In the rare event the blue player can cast any spell costing more than 2, MUD can play panther, pithing needle, revoker, staff of nin, precursor golem, triskelion, or any creature after they steal your mox to beat Dack.

[Protoaddict]

If the opponent (playing Dack) plays Dack after you land a golem, then he is paying 4+ mana at sorcery speed - which should almost never be available to them in any good MUD build with wastes, spheres, and tangles.  If they play Dack BEFORE golem, they will often try to snag your sol ring, tangle, etc to gain the mana advantage.  This puts Dack @ 1 loyalty, and then casting ANY creature, like golem off workshop + next land drop, will kill Dack before he can get back to 2 loyalty and steal an artifact again.  Many times the dack player won't +1 first, because they are trying to swing the mana balance as fast as possible, denying MUD bigger plays and digging themselves out of spheres.  Dack is a nuisance, but not so brutal.  The only real problem is when you don't have chalice or spheres out and they lucksack into topdeck lotus to cast Dack and steal your golem.  If the Dack player is on the play, they CAN land, mox, mox, cast Dack, and that hurts...but that's double mox and Dack in their opening 7.

A thing to note with Dack though, and one of the reasons he is so good, is that he fishes for more copies of himself.

So let's say I play dack before you golem and then -2 and steal something from you that makes mana. Assuming that next turn you hit your mana requirements and play a lodestone or wurmcoil, what is the game plan, how do you dig out? The dack player will +1 and try to dig for another answer, either Dack, Ancient grudge, steel sabotage, etc. Because you are digging you have a better chance to find your answer than the shops player does to find an anti card, and you have the mana online to cast it because you stole whatever from your opponent.

I have already had games where I windmilled Dack and stole a mana rock and the following turn my opponent dropped a lodestone which I promptly followed up with a Dack +1 followed by another Dack and then another -2 in the same turn. Typically speaking you will win those games.

[fsecco]

And I don't know about you, but if I manage to play a Dack against MUD and they don't have a threat on the table, I'll +1 once he hits the table. That way I'm left with 2 steals for whatever he's got going.

Of course, that changes once he has a Factory and I have no creatures, etc. But, on a void of threats, I'll ALWAYS +1 him first...

[Samoht]

And I don't know about you, but if I manage to play a Dack against MUD and they don't have a threat on the table, I'll +1 once he hits the table. That way I'm left with 2 steals for whatever he's got going.

Of course, that changes once he has a Factory and I have no creatures, etc. But, on a void of threats, I'll ALWAYS +1 him first...

You should probably be more wary of Revoker, but otherwise I'm with you as well.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I don't understand what kind of Mud Decks you're playing against to cast a three mana sorcery in the first place.  That's pretty impossible in my experience.

[Samoht]

I don't understand what kind of Mud Decks you're playing against to cast a three mana sorcery in the first place.  That's pretty impossible in my experience.

I don't know what kind of blue decks you're playing with that can't play basics and fetches to push out under spheres and then leverage that into power plays.