UR Delver

[youhavenogame]

Thanks for the clarification on Meltdown. Doesn't really convince me then - sure it is a great way to deal with one or multiple Chalice, but not being able to handle anything else (except for mana of course) make it sound like a high variance card to me - if I get to kill 2 Chalice and 2 Moxes with it I feel super smart, but if I face a Golem or just a couple of Spheres I feel like a fool. Would rather sac 2 Mountains to nuke everything

[mmcgeach]

an early Mentor still rapes Delver.

There are a lot of Monastery Mentors online and I have a hard time beating them with UR. I've added two Sudden Shocks to the board but it hasn't helped much. Maybe the URw version could play Swords in the board? Or something. Anyone have any suggestions?

I fail to see what's wrong with a 3-mana, unanswerable, potentially-uncounterable-off-cavern, two-turn clock that doesn't require a single subsequent spell to resolve.  There's a huge thread over here http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47245.0 that basically determines there's practically speaking no playable answer to a mentor, and this leads sort of quickly to the conclusion that the best answer is to play your own mentors.  But if we are going to consider answers to a resolved mentor, the best is probably toxic deluge, since it potentially gets all the tokens and the mentor (albeit at huge cost) - but there's a lot to be said for more narrow, uncounterable stuff like sudden shock (except you have to have that in hand before the mentor hits play!) and sulfur elemental (doesn't deal with the mentor itself; and SOOO narrow).  Of course, if you're running a couple narrow answers in your SB then you need a lot of maindeck tutors to find them, which UR delver doesn't play. In conclusion...

May whomever draws the first mentor win!

[The Atog Lord]

I've been playing Delver against various Mentor incarnations for a while. Overall, my finding has been that I have felt fairly comfortable in the matchup. I win more than I lose. The Delver deck has to assume the aggressive role -- given enough time, the Mentor decks will create a board state that Delver can't beat. However, we can often win before they get there. Delver of Secrets himself is important, and a card seldom encountered in the Mentor decks. He can arrive on the first turn and then combine with Lightning Bolt to provide a clock that can get Mentor opponents before their engine gets online. So, while I know that some Delver players opt to remove some Delvers to assume a more control-ish role against some decks, that is not a winning plan against Mentor decks.

Further, the Mentor decks have no more than four copies of Monastery Mentor. If Monastery Mentor doesn't arrive, then the matchup is quite favorable. After all, without Mentor himself, the Mentor decks are not unlike the same Big Blue decks that the Delver decks tend to prey upon. Even for those Mentor decks that are more akin to Delver decks in their construction, they tend to devote more card slots either to mana, or to other lower-impact cards. This means that, without Mentor himself to reap the rewards of those deck-construction decisions, the matchup certainly favors the Delver decks.

When Mentor does arrive, the point at which he arrives makes a huge difference. If Mentor arrives in the first two turns, we are probably losing to him. If he arrives on the third turn, then we have a close game. And if Mentor arrives after the third turn, in my experience, it is often too late for the Mentor player. Of course, this is all very general, and there are a number of factors in play. However, as a general rule, this is how I've found the matchup to play out.

So, in short, as the Delver player, play aggressively. Treasure your Lightning Bolts and lead with Delver. Try to keep Mentor from arriving in the first couple turns if possible. Mentor is a scary card in a shell that has been weakened to accommodate him.

[Hrishi]

No, I think he really means spheres, not chalice.

With 2 spheres and Explosives, you can announce casting explosives for 0CC, and paying 1 blue mana and 1 white mana (for example) in order to pay for the spheres. So, the explosives enter play with 2 sunburst counters, and when activated, they will destroy all 2CC permanents in play (including spheres)

Meltdown would cost  : 2R to pay for killing the spheres, and 2 more because of the spheres.

Thanks for the explanation. I was also under the impression that it worked like Explosives. In that case, I think Meltdown really seems like a bad answer. In order to blow up 2 spheres, you need to resolve a 5 CMC spell. And it doesn't even get rid of cards that cost over 2 mana, which shops has plenty of. I'd rather resolve something like Viashino Heretic if I wanted a knock out punch.

[msg67183]

No, I think he really means spheres, not chalice.

With 2 spheres and Explosives, you can announce casting explosives for 0CC, and paying 1 blue mana and 1 white mana (for example) in order to pay for the spheres. So, the explosives enter play with 2 sunburst counters, and when activated, they will destroy all 2CC permanents in play (including spheres)

Meltdown would cost  : 2R to pay for killing the spheres, and 2 more because of the spheres.

Thanks for the explanation. I was also under the impression that it worked like Explosives. In that case, I think Meltdown really seems like a bad answer. In order to blow up 2 spheres, you need to resolve a 5 CMC spell. And it doesn't even get rid of cards that cost over 2 mana, which shops has plenty of. I'd rather resolve something like Viashino Heretic if I wanted a knock out punch.

The fact that I can hit multiple artifacts with one spell is why I like it. I don't really need to hit the expensive cards with it since I have my set of Chewer. I just usually use it to hit Chalices and Moxen in the same card

[mueller]

It goes without saying that EE is a much more versatile card than meltdown. It has utility against Dredge, Merfolk, Belcher, and, if you have space for it, the Mirror and the Mentor match-up.

[dangerlinto]

No, I think he really means spheres, not chalice.

With 2 spheres and Explosives, you can announce casting explosives for 0CC, and paying 1 blue mana and 1 white mana (for example) in order to pay for the spheres. So, the explosives enter play with 2 sunburst counters, and when activated, they will destroy all 2CC permanents in play (including spheres)

Meltdown would cost   : 2R to pay for killing the spheres, and 2 more because of the spheres.

Thanks for the explanation. I was also under the impression that it worked like Explosives. In that case, I think Meltdown really seems like a bad answer. In order to blow up 2 spheres, you need to resolve a 5 CMC spell. And it doesn't even get rid of cards that cost over 2 mana, which shops has plenty of. I'd rather resolve something like Viashino Heretic if I wanted a knock out punch.

AH I see what youhavenogame was thinking.

Sunburst only cares about the distinct colored types used to pay for the mana cost.  That's why you can pay 1 with say Cavern of Souls, avoid chalice set to 0, and blow up every chalice on the board.

However, the problem with Explosives and Spheres is that if all your mana is colored (and in Delver, it usually is) there is no way to take out Chalices with a sphere in play.  The sphere will force you to pay at least 1, and that mana will be colored, and so you can't play EE = 0 (which is what you need to hit Chalice).

I think I would still run Shattering Spree over meltdown.  It can circumvent chalice = 1 by simply paying for at least one replicate cost, and is cheaper than every other alternative under spheres, and can hit mulitple targets regardless of their mana cost.  It also doesn't fail under null rod.  Not that EE is a bad answer - it's really just not great against Shops.

[diopter]

EE is a horrifically bad tactic within the Delver strategy. It actively inhibits Delver from doing the things that make it good.

[Samoht]

EE is a horrifically bad tactic within the Delver strategy. It actively inhibits Delver from doing the things that make it good.

I'd disagree that it is inherent, unless you're playing it at 0. In fact, against a deck like Terra Nova, it's one of the best cards. It lets you clear Spheres cheap and get onto your cheap mana plan.

[Holden1669]

I've been playing Delver against various Mentor incarnations for a while. Overall, my finding has been that I have felt fairly comfortable in the matchup. I win more than I lose. The Delver deck has to assume the aggressive role -- given enough time, the Mentor decks will create a board state that Delver can't beat. However, we can often win before they get there. Delver of Secrets himself is important, and a card seldom encountered in the Mentor decks. He can arrive on the first turn and then combine with Lightning Bolt to provide a clock that can get Mentor opponents before their engine gets online. So, while I know that some Delver players opt to remove some Delvers to assume a more control-ish role against some decks, that is not a winning plan against Mentor decks.

Further, the Mentor decks have no more than four copies of Monastery Mentor. If Monastery Mentor doesn't arrive, then the matchup is quite favorable. After all, without Mentor himself, the Mentor decks are not unlike the same Big Blue decks that the Delver decks tend to prey upon. Even for those Mentor decks that are more akin to Delver decks in their construction, they tend to devote more card slots either to mana, or to other lower-impact cards. This means that, without Mentor himself to reap the rewards of those deck-construction decisions, the matchup certainly favors the Delver decks.

When Mentor does arrive, the point at which he arrives makes a huge difference. If Mentor arrives in the first two turns, we are probably losing to him. If he arrives on the third turn, then we have a close game. And if Mentor arrives after the third turn, in my experience, it is often too late for the Mentor player. Of course, this is all very general, and there are a number of factors in play. However, as a general rule, this is how I've found the matchup to play out.

So, in short, as the Delver player, play aggressively. Treasure your Lightning Bolts and lead with Delver. Try to keep Mentor from arriving in the first couple turns if possible. Mentor is a scary card in a shell that has been weakened to accommodate him.

Thanks, Rich, that's very helpful. Basically I need to be more aggressive. I think that too many of my matches have had the back and forth of card drawing and counterspells and then even if I land a Pyromancer it gets out-classed quickly. I'll prioritize Delver and see how it goes.

[msg67183]

I've been playing Delver against various Mentor incarnations for a while. Overall, my finding has been that I have felt fairly comfortable in the matchup. I win more than I lose. The Delver deck has to assume the aggressive role -- given enough time, the Mentor decks will create a board state that Delver can't beat. However, we can often win before they get there. Delver of Secrets himself is important, and a card seldom encountered in the Mentor decks. He can arrive on the first turn and then combine with Lightning Bolt to provide a clock that can get Mentor opponents before their engine gets online. So, while I know that some Delver players opt to remove some Delvers to assume a more control-ish role against some decks, that is not a winning plan against Mentor decks.

Further, the Mentor decks have no more than four copies of Monastery Mentor. If Monastery Mentor doesn't arrive, then the matchup is quite favorable. After all, without Mentor himself, the Mentor decks are not unlike the same Big Blue decks that the Delver decks tend to prey upon. Even for those Mentor decks that are more akin to Delver decks in their construction, they tend to devote more card slots either to mana, or to other lower-impact cards. This means that, without Mentor himself to reap the rewards of those deck-construction decisions, the matchup certainly favors the Delver decks.

When Mentor does arrive, the point at which he arrives makes a huge difference. If Mentor arrives in the first two turns, we are probably losing to him. If he arrives on the third turn, then we have a close game. And if Mentor arrives after the third turn, in my experience, it is often too late for the Mentor player. Of course, this is all very general, and there are a number of factors in play. However, as a general rule, this is how I've found the matchup to play out.

So, in short, as the Delver player, play aggressively. Treasure your Lightning Bolts and lead with Delver. Try to keep Mentor from arriving in the first couple turns if possible. Mentor is a scary card in a shell that has been weakened to accommodate him.

Thanks, Rich, that's very helpful. Basically I need to be more aggressive. I think that too many of my matches have had the back and forth of card drawing and counterspells and then even if I land a Pyromancer it gets out-classed quickly. I'll prioritize Delver and see how it goes.

This is why I love playing Gitaxian Probe as a 3-4 of in the deck. It lets you see what they are up to so you know whether to go aggressive or play conservatively with countermagic.