"Simians Mom" aka RW Death and Taxes

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

So with the rise in creature strategies in the format, I decided I would jump on that bandwagon and see what I could brew up. I know I wanted spirit guides of some sort to ensure I ramp out a turn 1 threat even on the draw. So from there I started thinking what colors I would want to run. I wanted to run a 2 color deck with 4 caverns, so that narrowed me down to GW or RW. Both permutations have spirit guides and all of the latest and greatest hate bears being printed. I ended up leaning towards red due to the quality shops hate and the new card Prophetic Flamespeaker. Prophetic Flamespeaker is comparable to Bob as he refuels the board and keeps the threats going. And in certain ways, specifically combat, flamespeaker is better. So below is the list I ran and took all the way to the top 8 of yesterday's event at TDG in Bloomsburg PA.

3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben - In testing 3 seemed like the correct number as it always resolved with cavern and I never wanted to be stuck with multiples
4 Aegis of Gods - I wanted the full set to have anti-oath threat density
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth - Speaks for itself
4 Prophetic Flamespeaker - This card is one of the all-stars in the deck. Great at keeping you ahead in games
4 Simian Spirit Guide - I always wanted a turn1 threat most games even if I am on the draw. Another all-star here...
4 Leonin Relic-Warder - This card was great all day an couldn't imagine less then the full set
2 Mother of Runes - This started as an experiment to fight the spot removal in the format and ended up working out extremely well Just as I assumed it would. It also lets me attack through bigger creatures and attack against a true name nemesis
2 Stoneforge Mystic - This package was definitely the biggest decision on the deck building. I kept wanting to cut the mystics and skull. But then nothing ever seemed better, so its here for now haha
1 Batterskull - ^
3 Grafdiggers Cage - Again I wanted to load up on oath hate main deck and this also hits other important things
2 Phyrexian Revoker - I wanted more of these and considered a 3rdover one of the Aegis, but couldn't pull the trigger on that
4 Swords to Plowshares - I decided to go with no bolts and all swords effects due to all the big creatures flooding the meta (angels and shops dudes namely)

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal - I wanted as many turn 1 plays as possible thus this is here
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plains - 5 basics were key in fighting shops of course
2 Mountain - ^
3 Plateau
4 Cavern of Souls - I wanted 4 of these to force dudes out vs chalice and blue
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland - Ideally I have a 3rd main deck but couldn't find the room. And in testing I didn't necessarily need it vs shops

SIDEBOARD
3 Rest in Peace
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos - This was an experiment to bring in vs shops and fair creature decks like angels, delver, and fish. I drew it against junk bears but I already had the game sealed. On paper this guy seems sweet.
1 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Stony Silence - This could potentially be 2 revokers
4 Ingot Chewer - I considered cutting 1 of tese for a wear/tear
1 Wasteland - Additional land in the form of waste for shops
2 Path to Exile - Loved having the additional swords effects
1 Umezawa's Jitte - Speaks for itself against fair decks

Here's the clean look at the deck...

"SIMIANS MOM" aka RW Death and Taxes

3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
4 Aegis of Gods
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
3 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plains
2 Mountain
3 Plateau
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
3 Rest in Peace
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Stony Silence
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Wasteland
2 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Rd 1, 0-2 loss vs dack/notion thief.dec. G1, he has turn 1 dack then notion thief and ends quickly. G2, he has 2 Mox, land, and key. I cast stony silence, which gets forced, he then top decks vault and I lose...
 
Rd 2, 2-0 win vs Brandon Brown junk bears. My bears are better and mother of runes does work haha.

Rd 3, 2-1 win vs dack slaver control. Game 1 I thought he was on shops and keep a hand with turn 1 Stoneforge off spirit guide. He then plays volcanic island lol so he's not shops. I start casting more controlling bears and win. He has all the removal and walkers game 2. Game 3 I have a boat of bears but I'm holding back a Relic-Warder and a swords. He has 1 turn to live and casts demonic tutor. I assumed toxic deluge or tinker for battlesphere. If he gets deluge he goes to 1 life and I have a threat in hand. He gets tinker for bot. I then clear it with Relic-Warder and win 2 turns later.

Rd 4, 2-0 win vs Rolland Chang on 5c stax. Game 1 mull to 6 with all mana including Lotus and Wasteland, but I have Relic-Warder. He has turn 1 smokestack. I Relic-Warder and waste. He's slowed down enough for me to draw gas. Game 2 I mulligan again to 6 into almost the same hand. This time with strip waste Relic-Warder and lotus. He has turn 1 welder and crucible. I removed crucible and eat his land to slow him down enough again...Flamespeaker drops and goes to town

Rd 5, ID

Top 8, 0-2 loss vs Rob Edwards on oath. G1 I have turn 1 uncounterable aegis, but he has turn 1 show and tell griselbrand, game 2 I have 2 Relic-Warder 1 cage but he has multiple oaths, and claim, and show and tell progenitus...other then that, the deck was awesome

So in conclusion I really think this deck is great. It felt nice all day and I'll definitely play it again possibly with subtle changes. But not too much! Thanks for reading fellas!

[boggyb]

Sweet. Congrats on the Top 8!

Any thoughts on War Priest of Thune? Seems an auto-include to me.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I considered war priest in the construction stages of this deck but ultimately I wanted cards that impact multiple matchups...the hate for oath I have is already sufficient in most cases. But war priest could certainly be a 1 of in the board if it suits your fancy

[serracollector]

Have you considered the new white vindicate or mangara? also no karakas?

[fsecco]

I like the deck, but what do you do against a Chalice for 2?

Have you considered the new white vindicate or mangara? also no karakas?

I think Mangara and Karakas are way too slow. The new Vindicate might be good as a 1-of I guess.

[msg67183]

Cavern of Souls is his answer to Chalice at 2. That would be my guess.

[brianpk80]

Nice list Josh, and congrats!  I also find 3 to be the optimal number of Thalias and could not find anything to replace Stoneforge. 

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Have you considered the new white vindicate or mangara? also no karakas?

I considered all of those, and Karakas was the closest thing to making the cut...but in the end I just wanted a stronger mana base in favor of Karakas.

I like the deck, but what do you do against a Chalice for 2?

Have you considered the new white vindicate or mangara? also no karakas?

I think Mangara and Karakas are way too slow. The new Vindicate might be good as a 1-of I guess.

Chalice at 2 is answered with the 4 cavern of souls and then after sb I have 4 chewers if chalice gets I the way

[desolutionist]

Have you thought about Leonin Arbiter?

[WhiteLotus]

Is Magus of the moon worthy of consideration for this deck ?

[desolutionist]

I just played it in a daily event and went 2-2.  I didn't resolve a Flamespeaker once, but the idea is that it is the only card over 2 cc that you want to play unless you were to play more moxes/ancient tomb; then I could see entering the 3 cc zone.

I question Mother of Runes.  For a 1 drop, in a deck that is trying to hate out Oath and Shops, why not something such as Goblin Vandal? Or AEther Vial.

I'm testing -1 Aegis of the Gods, -1 Spirit of the Labyrinth, and -1 Stoneforge Mystic +3 Leonin Arbiter

The idea is that those three creatures are not so good in multiples while the opponent is going to town with fetchlands and tutors. Seems like the blue decks were kind of prepared for the Spirit since they were playing FoFs.  Also doesn't Arbiter stop them from getting Ancestral so quickly to begin with? 

[fsecco]

Sorry guys, I totally missed the Caverns on the list. Dumb me.

I like Goblin Vandal, but I think he's not that good as a turn 1 play if you got Caverns as your sole red source. Not only because Caverns doesn't pay his activation cost, but because you'd have to name it to something other than Human.

I keep wondering if Dryad Militant isn't better in that slot, but I haven't tested Mother of Runes to see if it's really that nice. Maybe meta dependant?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Mother of runes is insane. Every single deck in the format plays spot removal. If they don't kill mother, your dudes are immune to the removal. It also protects your anti oath dudes from the removal, it allows you to attack through bigger and better creatures like angel and nemesis. Arbiter is only ok IMO as the deck doesn't max out on mana denial strategy so they can normally pay 2 to negate the effect. Mother of runes is actually one of my favorite parts of the deck. The deck would look extremely different if I maxed out on mana denial strategies and used Arbiter.

And Shawn, the list you're playing is significantly worse then the one I purposed since you're not working with lotus, wastelands,  Batterskull,  etc

I don't care for vandal as it spreads out the creature types too much and lessens the effectiveness of cavern. I haven't felt the need to have more shops hate then I already have. And as far as Militant, she's good but MOM is better imo...

Magus is an option but I don't think a good one in the meta. So many decks have strong mana bases and/or deathrite shaman and pack creature removal as well. Not only that but turning all of my caverns into mountains seems awful. The reason I am beating blue decks that play a bazillion counters is because of caverns.

[XxtSundaybxX]

Mother of ruins is a lot better than it looks on paper. It requires your opponent to have two removal spells. One for the mother and one for the card you really want to get rid of. Unless of course you're running deluge.

Leonine arbiter is probably worth including, however I think it would depend on your metagame. Spirit of the labrynth is pretty good, as most blue decks want to draw cards, including Jace. After testing vs the deck, stoneforge definitely belongs. Batterskull speaks for itself, but if you can equip it on flame speaker it's just insane. And with mother you can give him protection from whatever color creature your opponent is able to block with.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

What Desolutionist forgot to mention is he's playing this deck on mtgo without wastelands, lotus, or batterskull, and idk what else. So he's playing ghost quarters instead. So inherently his list probably needs to look different then what I have had success with...

[fsecco]

Don't get me wrong, I love Mother of Runes. And thinking about it, giving your Flamespeaker protection against a blocker seems quite awesome!

[The Atog Lord]

I have tinkered a bit with Hate Bears in Vintage, but nothing successful. I have, however, been playing the deck in Modern. It is very good in that format, and I've had a fair amount of success with it. In Modern, at least, GW is the way to go because of Noble Hierarch. Your mileage may vary in Vintage, but at least in Modern, she is a game-changing card that justifies Green as the secondary color by herself.

Have you considered Aether Vial? Sure, if they kill you on the first turn, then it is no good. But if the games goes on even for a few turns, Vial gives you a lot of extra mana and lets you have uncounterable, flash creatures. I'll usually lead with Aether Vial over even the hierarch except against fast combo.

Good to see this innovation, Josh!

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Thanks Rich! I think vial became alot worse for a couple reasons. First off mental misstep is a card now, but the biggest reason is CAVERN OF SOULS! Cavern makes the important bears uncounterable while also being a mana source. Where as vial would take the spot of a spell in the deck. I am at 23 mana sources and 4 Simian Spirit Guide and it has felt pretty darn good vs shops. With the additional waste off the sideboard. I had been testing/tuning/tweaking this deck under the radar for like 2 months straight since I didn't have the ability to attend real life events. And I will say the first go around in the event, the deck felt spot on. I would run it almost identically in the next event, but maybe squeeze the 3rd revoker somewhere and possibly 2-3 red Elemental Blast as well. But again I think the deck is awfully well positioned and very close to how I would play it again tmrw...

Additionally I wanted a draw engine so I went with red for flamespeaker. And as I noted earlier it was great all day. Against other fair decks double striking smaller creatures is quite relevant and it keeps my board state going even in the face of removal. He takes over the game pretty well getting 2 additional cards per turn.

[desolutionist]

Wasteland is worth 2.5 moxes on mtgo so Ill probably never get them.  Thus there seems to be a lot less fish decks so cards like Batterskull are not extremely necessary; Jitte kills just as fast for $3.  Ghost Quarter has been fine in the Wasteland slot for me.  And of course I want to get a Lotus, but I'm not worried about one card changing the effectiveness of Mother of Runes. Are you aware of a card called Benevolent Bodyguard? It has the same effect as Mother of Runes a turn faster. I still don't think it's very good...

Arbiter on the other hand has been solid.

Anyway I don't think me being unable to afford wastelands should really discount my opinions, thanks

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Wasteland is worth 2.5 moxes on mtgo so Ill probably never get them.  Thus there seems to be a lot less fish decks so cards like Batterskull are not extremely necessary; Jitte kills just as fast for $3.  Ghost Quarter has been fine in the Wasteland slot for me.  And of course I want to get a Lotus, but I'm not worried about one card changing the effectiveness of Mother of Runes. Are you aware of a card called Benevolent Bodyguard? It has the same effect as Mother of Runes a turn faster. I still don't think it's very good...

Arbiter on the other hand has been solid.

Anyway I don't think me being unable to afford wastelands should really discount my opinions, thanks

Benevolent Bodyguard you have to sack to make relevant which is obviously different then mother. And not having wastelands/lotus/or batterskull does make the deck different.  I'm not discounting your opinion. But I do think mother of runes is quite good in this deck. If you think otherwise so be it. Mom makes all the other bears so much better as every deck in the format plays spot removal...now without mom the deck becomes even worse vs all the spot removal. For example, I have spirit and mom out, vs spirit and not moms, they remove  relevant bear, then go nuts. Maybe the online meta is different...but this deck was tuned for the east coast metagame in particular...of course if you expect a different meta then you can adjust accordingly.

Another thing to point out is cutting one drops for more 2 drops makes the deck even more vulnerable to engineered explosives, while also makes for slower times building up the board. If u have no fast mana it's nice to play a 1 drop. Additionally the east coast meta has become increasing in the number of fair creature decks being played. Which again makes mother quite good.

[desolutionist]

Right on, I'll test Mother again. I only cut her for Vandal to try out. Thanks for convincing me to do so

[MrGlantz]

I like the list Josh, as Ive become really dissatisfied with mono W, I keep thinking that RW would be solid for Vintage hate for the future. This and Lance's Plateau deck look like solid starting points at RW.


Your list looks a little light on land disruption, Has that been a problem? I've found that creature decks need to aggressively mess with their opponents mana because Toxic Deluge is always a blow out. Running three Strip effects seems quite low.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I like the list Josh, as Ive become really dissatisfied with mono W, I keep thinking that RW would be solid for Vintage hate for the future. This and Lance's Plateau deck look like solid starting points at RW.


Your list looks a little light on land disruption, Has that been a problem? I've found that creature decks need to aggressively mess with their opponents mana because Toxic Deluge is always a blow out. Running three Strip effects seems quite low.

Thanks for the kind words! Well while I agree with the mana denial part of this deck is quite light, it was something I wanted to try out in favor of maxing out on caverns. I have done extensive testing vs decks with access to toxic deluge and even a burning wish deck with access to toxic deluge off the sb which made me realize something. The first thing it made me a realize was there's a fine line between applying enough pressure while not over extending. If you find that balance you can get your opponents life low enough while deluge isn't a huge blowout since you're holding creatures back. And secondly if they're tutoring for deluge, then they're probably not tutoring for the win...? Makes sense right? Well this actually came up in the event this past Saturday.  I had a dack jace welder control deck in an awkward position where he cast late game demonic (now since I had played blue my entire vintage career I knew he would be going for either deluge if he played it or tinker for bot) for tinker. If he had grabbed deluge and cast it he would have been at 1 life and I was holding Relic-Warder and a spirit guide back to finish him off. At the time I was holding path, Relic-Warder, and spirit guide. He tutored for tinker and cast is getting battlesphere I them cast Relic-Warder and proceeded to win through the tokens produced. So again, against toxic deluge potential decks do not over extend, while still applying adequate pressure. And like I said if they're tutoring for deluge they're not tutoring a win con haha

As far as mana denial, this is why I have the 3rd waste and stonys on the sb. I started with 2 waste on the board but slimmed it to 1. Decks where Relic-Warder is less impressive he can be used as denial on Mox as well. I felt like I wanted more creature control and max out on caverns rather then maxing out on the mana denial plan. And thus far I've really been fine with it!

[fsecco]

I feel I'd want a 3rd Revoker on this list. What would you take out? Maybe 1 Spirit?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

No spirit guides are key in playing a turn 1 hate piece or late game beats. I've considered 3rd revoker in place of the 4th Aegis.

[MrGlantz]

I like the list Josh, as Ive become really dissatisfied with mono W, I keep thinking that RW would be solid for Vintage hate for the future. This and Lance's Plateau deck look like solid starting points at RW.


Your list looks a little light on land disruption, Has that been a problem? I've found that creature decks need to aggressively mess with their opponents mana because Toxic Deluge is always a blow out. Running three Strip effects seems quite low.

Thanks for the kind words! Well while I agree with the mana denial part of this deck is quite light, it was something I wanted to try out in favor of maxing out on caverns. I have done extensive testing vs decks with access to toxic deluge and even a burning wish deck with access to toxic deluge off the sb which made me realize something. The first thing it made me a realize was there's a fine line between applying enough pressure while not over extending. If you find that balance you can get your opponents life low enough while deluge isn't a huge blowout since you're holding creatures back. And secondly if they're tutoring for deluge, then they're probably not tutoring for the win...? Makes sense right? Well this actually came up in the event this past Saturday.  I had a dack jace welder control deck in an awkward position where he cast late game demonic (now since I had played blue my entire vintage career I knew he would be going for either deluge if he played it or tinker for bot) for tinker. If he had grabbed deluge and cast it he would have been at 1 life and I was holding Relic-Warder and a spirit guide back to finish him off. At the time I was holding path, Relic-Warder, and spirit guide. He tutored for tinker and cast is getting battlesphere I them cast Relic-Warder and proceeded to win through the tokens produced. So again, against toxic deluge potential decks do not over extend, while still applying adequate pressure. And like I said if they're tutoring for deluge they're not tutoring a win con haha

As far as mana denial, this is why I have the 3rd waste and stonys on the sb. I started with 2 waste on the board but slimmed it to 1. Decks where Relic-Warder is less impressive he can be used as denial on Mox as well. I felt like I wanted more creature control and max out on caverns rather then maxing out on the mana denial plan. And thus far I've really been fine with it!

That makes sense, especially with your suite of hatebears. Things like Prophetic Firespeaker seem to help to close out games so you don't need to overextend as much as I'm used to doing. List looks good and fun!

[vaughnbros]

How good is flamespeaker in this list? 

I ask because it's really the only red card in the deck (the 4 ssg are probably rarely ever cast and ingot chewer is a shops only card). 

You would be able to get a lot more out of your mana base by going mono white, allowing you to at the very least play Karakas, and a full set of wastes without hurting your number of white sources.  You'd also gain more stability by not needing to fetch mountains or plateaus.

The flamespeakers themselves could probably be replaced the the other 2 stoneforges and a sword of fire and ice to retain a draw engine.

If flamespeaker is definitely one of the best cards in the deck this is all mute though.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Flamespeaker has been insane in testing and at the tournament so I would say it is somewhat a mute point. My whole issue with bear decks is not having a relevant threat (especially on the draw) on turn 1. Which is the reason for 4 Spirit guides...I think the elvish spirit guides are my favorite part of junk bears and I wanted to use the same scheme. I feel like if I played mono white I would be force to run chrome Mox or Mox diamond which are way worse then spirit guides IMO. And lastly since I am usually a blue player, I knew I wanted an engine (bob or flamespeaker). And I really think flamespeaker is great here. It allows me to play everything flipped off him (2 cards per turn) which allows me to hold some bears back in my hand to avoid being blown out by mass removal. So in conclusion I wanted spirit guides and an engine which mono white has neither really

I will say most of my opponents Saturday were impressed at how good flamespeaker was haha. Even vs junk bears I was able to attack through most of his creatures with flamespeaker. Where as bob would have just traded and not survived.

Red also can give me the option of red Elemental Blast. I may end up playing 2-3 of them going forward. I mean this is pretty much a white trash deck splashing red...to make...it better IMO.

[vaughnbros]

If you went mono white there really isn't much reason you couldn't run off color moxen over the spirit guides or just still run the spirit guides themselves, maybe with a singleton plateau or savannah to fetch out if you want to cast them.  

I can concur with flamespeaker being insanely powerful draw engine when he isn't killed/countered, or gets stuck in your hand.  The problem is that he dies to lightning bolt, swords, and abrupt decay as well as his mana cost being 1RR making him difficult to cast without exposing yourself to wastelands.  So while stoneforge-> sword of FaI is a little bit slower draw engine due to it costing more mana, it having neither of these drawbacks should put it at a similar power level in the deck. (stoneforge's effect happens when it comes into play making it much more resilient to the removal aspect and its cost of 1W is much more conducive to the rest of the deck)

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I understand. It may just boil down to play style I suppose...plus if they're killing flamespeaker, then you still have problematic prison bears

But anywho, I do enjoy flamespeaker in this deck alot even at RR1...and multiple flamespeakers can get silly

A good protector for flamespeaker is also MOM. She can protect him from spot removal some games or force through an attack. <3 mom here, she's been excellent as well