"Simians Mom" aka RW Death and Taxes

[fsecco]

No spirit guides are key in playing a turn 1 hate piece or late game beats. I've considered 3rd revoker in place of the 4th Aegis.

Sorry, I meant Spirit of the Labyrinth.

[XxtSundaybxX]

Sword or fire and ice is certainly worth testing over the flamespeaker. Don't know that it's better or not. Decks like this don't usually generate an advantage by drawing more cards like a control deck, they generally get an advantage from the effects the creatures have on your opponent. (Josh) you seem to be very quick to dismiss any input towards the deck. At that point why bother even writing about it? Sword of fire and ice seems like it would be very good at the moment. Also, there's plenty of times you either already have Batterskull in your hand or something else would be more beneficial at the moment.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I can test other equipment in the deck along with Batterskull but that also means I should play more Stoneforge Mystic. That's an option, but I certainly do not want to go to mono white and lose the spirit guides was the main point in my previous post

And I guess if something felt wrong in the tournament or testing I would make adjustments accordingly. Until then I'm not going to fix something that isn't broke. 2 things I might change is, add the 3rd revoker and play some number of rebs in the 75

[brianpk80]

I played against this deck today for the first time and I agree with Josh that the Flamespeaker is extraordinarily strong.  I hate seeing Bobs on the other side of the table any day of the week and that guy is even more annoying.  I also like that it allows you to play the hate bears first and then keeps the gas flowing when an opponent is already down, as opposed to Bob who can give an opponent an early window to just win.  

[Guli]

I played against this deck today for the first time and I agree with Josh that the Flamespeaker is extraordinarily strong.  I hate seeing Bobs on the other side of the table any day of the week and that guy is even more annoying.  I also like that it allows you to play the hate bears first and then keeps the gas flowing when an opponent is already down, as opposed to Bob who can give an opponent an early window to just win.  

I agree completely that this is the best and only way to design aggro denial control. There is really no rush to get a card into play that gets you new cards if you are doing the correct things from turn 1 to turn 3. I am also not a fan of going all in with the denial / disruption plan, it seems risky to me. It is all about getting down teams of 3 in play and being able to replace them with fresh meat. Sometimes this means dropping 3 new threats, sometimes this means dropping 1 or 2. Flamespeaker has the potential to increase pressure fast and seal the game. It overloads the opponent because it is a must answer that comes after the other must answers.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I played against this deck today for the first time and I agree with Josh that the Flamespeaker is extraordinarily strong.  I hate seeing Bobs on the other side of the table any day of the week and that guy is even more annoying.  I also like that it allows you to play the hate bears first and then keeps the gas flowing when an opponent is already down, as opposed to Bob who can give an opponent an early window to just win.  

As Josh and Guli pointed out with flamespeaker, you drop your locks first and then bobs to refill and gain CA.  If you are dropping bob turn 1 when you have 5 cards in hand and giving your opponent an unmolested turn 1, then you are doing it wrong.  Bob is probably the bigger threat over the course of the game, so I'd rather FoWs and bolts be expended on Thalia where bob will bury in CA over time.  Missing one card draw off bob in exchange for stopping your opponent for fetching (arbiter), cantriping (spirit) or burping out the win (aegis, eidelon, thalia, stony) is well worth it.  Letting your opponent goldfish on turn 1 is a terrible idea...and you should never do that with flamespeaker OR bob.

[fsecco]

I love Flamespeaker since he was spoiled.

But I can see how a Sword of Fire and Ice could be awesome here, if it could be squeezed in. I mean, Flamespeaker equipped with Sword is insane. Also it helps against bolts.

The only downside I see to adding swords is tempo loss. Batterskull if awesome because it has no need of equipping. Testing the deck, it seems pretty hard to have 2 mana available to equip. Also, equipping Flamespeaker and attacking the same turn should make it extra hard to cast those 2 exiled cards.

[grandpoohbah19]

Flamespeaker is a house! I was playing a similar deck online, but would sometimes just run out of gas. Flamespeaker is a great solution, and a good way to be able to attack in to a random trygon without worrying about losing creatures.

In my list I cut stoneforge package, revoker, moved cage to SB, and I'm running 4 magus of the moon and 4 stony silence instead. I've been playing this a lot online and an uncounterable magus just seems to end so many games, especially if you can keep them off their moxes/lotus with stony silence. I also like the surprise factor of magus; no one seems to be expecting it, and when it hits very few people are prepared to deal with it.

[fsecco]

Flamespeaker is a house! I was playing a similar deck online, but would sometimes just run out of gas. Flamespeaker is a great solution, and a good way to be able to attack in to a random trygon without worrying about losing creatures.

In my list I cut stoneforge package, revoker, moved cage to SB, and I'm running 4 magus of the moon and 4 stony silence instead. I've been playing this a lot online and an uncounterable magus just seems to end so many games, especially if you can keep them off their moxes/lotus with stony silence. I also like the surprise factor of magus; no one seems to be expecting it, and when it hits very few people are prepared to deal with it.

Stony and Magus are good cards for the deck, I think. The problem with Magus is that on game 2 is that people will fetch for basics and you'll be out of gas. Maybe side him out? Unless you're playing vs MUD or Oath, I guess.

EDIT: also, in my tests with the deck, it's not that simple to reach 3 mana. That and the fact that Magus turns Caverns off, I guess, should take him out of the equation for me.

[serracollector]

Isnt sword of fire and ice a huge nonbo with spirit? thats why flamespeaker is so good cuz of its interaction with spirit. also i know it may seem cute but you may want to test out either mad cap skills or ethereal armor. with stony silence spirit and aegis  ethereal can make something very huge very fast while madcap gives evasion and a two turn clock on flamespeaker.

[vaughnbros]

Isnt sword of fire and ice a huge nonbo with spirit? thats why flamespeaker is so good cuz of its interaction with spirit. also i know it may seem cute but you may want to test out either mad cap skills or ethereal armor. with stony silence spirit and aegis  ethereal can make something very huge very fast while madcap gives evasion and a two turn clock on flamespeaker.

Equipment are just better than enchant creatures because they are reusable and more versatile.  Jitte, sword of FaI, and batterskull all give flamespeaker the ability to two shot your opponent.  Sword is still +2/+2 pro red/blue and a shock when you hit your opponent so it's definitely not dead with a spirit out.

I agree with the exclusion of Magus.  The deck has no way of turn 1ing him really, or dealing with moxen or basic lands making him pretty weak.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Thanks for all the feedback and ideas guys, much appreciated! After taking it into consideration, I think I might test moving the jitte to the main deck over the 3rd main deck cage. Adding jitte does several awesome things. It makes flamespeaker obviously better when paired up, but it can also help me fight board sweepers like toxic deluge and pyroclasm like effects which will be nice. And even with adding jitte I think 2 is still the correct number of Stoneforge Mystic...why you might ask? Well I already have a lot of "fair" slots occupied in the deck by mom's,  spirit guides, flamespeakers,  and Stoneforge package. I don't really want to cut another control creature for the 3rd Mystic. 2 has felt perfect so I'll be keeping it like that for the time being!

[StanleyAugust]

Flamespeaker is a house! I was playing a similar deck online, but would sometimes just run out of gas. Flamespeaker is a great solution, and a good way to be able to attack in to a random trygon without worrying about losing creatures.

In my list I cut stoneforge package, revoker, moved cage to SB, and I'm running 4 magus of the moon and 4 stony silence instead. I've been playing this a lot online and an uncounterable magus just seems to end so many games, especially if you can keep them off their moxes/lotus with stony silence. I also like the surprise factor of magus; no one seems to be expecting it, and when it hits very few people are prepared to deal with it.

Stony and Magus are good cards for the deck, I think. The problem with Magus is that on game 2 is that people will fetch for basics and you'll be out of gas. Maybe side him out? Unless you're playing vs MUD or Oath, I guess.

EDIT: also, in my tests with the deck, it's not that simple to reach 3 mana. That and the fact that Magus turns Caverns off, I guess, should take him out of the equation for me.

What? Sounds like you've never played with Magus. These are two of the matchups in which Magus is the worse.

Josh: I've been playing RW since late 2012/early 2013 to combat a metagame mainly of Mud, Bomberman, Gush and BUG. I can write a little piece about my development of the deck and my experience if you want me to.

Your build seems good and very fun to play but I think that over time you'll find that you want either Gorilla Shaman or Stony Silence main deck. Also, 3 Revokers are minimum.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Normally I would want stonys maindeck in a build like this also but I felt as though the meta shifted enough towards fair decks and oath, that I wanted to make this build fight those decks more then running stony main deck. I will mess around with magus, but that means I would have alot of 3 drops since I'm running flamespeaker. And as I said I really really like flamespeaker in this deck. I want more mana denial, but simply it's just a meta game call.

[StanleyAugust]

How has the Aegis' been doing for you? They definitely seem borderline to me and most likely not maindeck worthy. Of course it's a metagame call and I agree that Oath is a big player now, but with Cage's and Relic-Warders main they seem redundant at times. They don't really do a whole lot in other matchups to be maindecked imo.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

How has the Aegis' been doing for you? They definitely seem borderline to me and most likely not maindeck worthy. Of course it's a metagame call and I agree that Oath is a big player now, but with Cage's and Relic-Warders main they seem redundant at times. They don't really do a whole lot in other matchups to be maindecked imo.

Well they've been alright. I do like redundancy against a deck like oath due to them removing the 1 hate piece then going off. I live in PA and our meta has been flooded with oath and creature strategies. Thus the stonys sb and overloaded on oath hate. Moving forward I will play 3 aegis and 3 revoker instead of the 4/2 split. Aegis does some things outside of oath. It negates fateseal on me from an opposing Jace, slows down storm combo, negates vendillion clique targeting me, etc. But I do agree at times they are less then stellar...in the meta that I play in, I don't think I would go less then 3...If there was another 2 cmc creature similar to Relic-Warder or quasali pridemage, I would cut down on aegis in a heartbeat. So moving forward I'll be testing 3 Phyrexian Revoker and 3 Aegis!

[xouman]

Flamespeaker is a house! I was playing a similar deck online, but would sometimes just run out of gas. Flamespeaker is a great solution, and a good way to be able to attack in to a random trygon without worrying about losing creatures.

In my list I cut stoneforge package, revoker, moved cage to SB, and I'm running 4 magus of the moon and 4 stony silence instead. I've been playing this a lot online and an uncounterable magus just seems to end so many games, especially if you can keep them off their moxes/lotus with stony silence. I also like the surprise factor of magus; no one seems to be expecting it, and when it hits very few people are prepared to deal with it.

Stony and Magus are good cards for the deck, I think. The problem with Magus is that on game 2 is that people will fetch for basics and you'll be out of gas. Maybe side him out? Unless you're playing vs MUD or Oath, I guess.

EDIT: also, in my tests with the deck, it's not that simple to reach 3 mana. That and the fact that Magus turns Caverns off, I guess, should take him out of the equation for me.

What? Sounds like you've never played with Magus. These are two of the matchups in which Magus is the worse.

Josh: I've been playing RW since late 2012/early 2013 to combat a metagame mainly of Mud, Bomberman, Gush and BUG. I can write a little piece about my development of the deck and my experience if you want me to.

Your build seems good and very fun to play but I think that over time you'll find that you want either Gorilla Shaman or Stony Silence main deck. Also, 3 Revokers are minimum.

I have played Magus in lots of tournaments, and if magus cames before oath, I'd win most of the time (I have lost to topdecked lotus/emerald, or jet+demonic, but it's hard).

Against non-metalworker mud, if magus enters the battlefield, I have a very good chance to win.

Worst pairings for magus are those decks with maindeck bolts and 3 or more basics. It's a pity to waste a simian after a mulligan to have a T1 magus and just face a "misty rainforest, tap, bolt to your magus"


I haven't add anything in this thread because I have never tested WR, neither flamespeaker. I'm a bit surprised that flamespeaker is actually good in vintage, since most hate affects him, and besides he has to connect to get the CA. Against MUD seems hard to play him, against oath or combo is slow, and against slower decks he should get all the hate I was talking about. I'm glad he has been working well for you, I'll have to test him in the future, congrats for your good results and thanks for the report!

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Yeah flamespeaker started out as an experiment that turned out really strong...keep in mind against a deck with removal, you play prison bears first generally, then flamespeaker. So if they're killing flamespeaker they may be losing to prison and vice versa. And against other creatures alot of times flamespeaker has the upper hand especially against other 2 toughness dudes. Against shops he only needs to connect once or twice to generate 2 or 4 cards of advantage which often times is enough. And it's not impossible for him to connect vs shops when I have 4 Swords and 4 Relic-Warder main deck. Against a broken deck like oath l, if they don't have a busted bonkers hand, flamespeaker gets out of control. And my list is packing a ton of oath hate. So yeah, I'd say test him out and you might be surprised

[fsecco]

What? Sounds like you've never played with Magus. These are two of the matchups in which Magus is the worse.

Josh: I've been playing RW since late 2012/early 2013 to combat a metagame mainly of Mud, Bomberman, Gush and BUG. I can write a little piece about my development of the deck and my experience if you want me to.

Your build seems good and very fun to play but I think that over time you'll find that you want either Gorilla Shaman or Stony Silence main deck. Also, 3 Revokers are minimum.

In my little experience with Magus, I find that against blue decks he can easily be avoided game 2 if the opp packs 2-3 basics. I think "basicless" Delver suffers a lot more. MUD suffers a lot, in my opinion. Without Metalworker, their lock pieces will lock them out too since they have no Tombs and Workshops to circumvent the Spheres. Against Oath it's exactly that: people never pack basic Forests, so if Magus hits before Oath, they'll be out of mana to play it (aside Mox and Lotus).

As I said, having tested this version a little bit, I find hitting 3 mana is not an easy thing. And when you do, you want Flamespeakers to hit the table. I'd pack Stony Silences way before packing Magus in this build. And I agree with other comments here: Aegis of the Gods are the "metagame slots" you have maindeck. They could be Stony Silences if you have a different type of metagame.

@oshkoshhaitsyosh - have you played against Genesis Chamber Workshop? It's a common deck in my area and I feel this deck may not have a great matchup there. Stonys help, of course. But what do you think?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I have not played against genesis chamber shops with this deck at all. That deck is almost non existent in my meta. I'm sure there are some options you can run to help fight that deck

[Twiedel]

I just wanted to let you know: I've been testing this deck online and I was really impressed of how good Spirit of the Labyrinth is performing. My main concern was that the hatebears of this deck really are just a little light when looking at their disruption, but it seems I was wrong in that. The only problem I was seeing is that most of the guys in this deck are X/1 and die to a Deathrite Shaman. Also, the Prophetic Flamespeaker was really exactly the kind of draw engine I ever wanted - Cavern of Souls keeps it playable, as otherwise a three-drop would be too bad I guess. So far, my only losses came from the Manabase (or the opponent wasting/stripping/trinisphering ^^).

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Thanks for the feedback Mark. I have found the 7 first strikers help vs shaman and chump blockers. Also I don't mind trading aegis with dr. shaman since most decks running shaman aren't affected by aegis for the most part. I'm glad you picked the deck up and tried it out! Again thanks for the feedback!

Also against fair decks I'm generally casting Simian Spirit Guides instead of using them for speed and I'd gladly trade one of those with a shaman as well. But I do understand what you're saying. I guess that's another reason I have kept sfm and Batterskull in the deck to have some bigger beats.

[fsecco]

I'm also having a few issues with the manabase. Specially because there are a lot of creature types, so Cavern is not exactly perfect as it is in humans.

Do we need the 2nd Mountain agaist shops? Couldn't it be the 4th Plateau? I haven't tested that much against Shops post-side yet.

[WotC_Ethan]

I played several matches with this deck on MTGO recently. It's a sweet brew! I won most of my games, though it felt like most of my opponents were playing rogue decks.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

4th plateau is probably fine. The only card that gets awkward sometimes with the mana base is Relic-Warder. But I find it to be not much of a problem more often then not. That being said I'm used to playing a greedy mana base in landstill haha. Personal preference could certainly come into play here haha

[fsecco]

Both Relic Warder and Flamespeaker push the manabase. Relic is harder to cast because of his creature types. But I don't think he has a substitute. I'll probably go with 4 Plateaus and 1 Mountain

The other slot I find "optional" is Aegis of the Gods. I mean, I love the dude, but for me he's the "meta slot". Could be Stony Silences, could be another hatebear that's better for your meta.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I've never had a problem casting flamespeaker due to him being a human and playing 4 Spirit guides. Relic-Warder on the other hand is sometimes awkward. And you are correct Aegis is 100% a meta slot

[Guli]

I agree,

Simian spirit guide + Cavern of Souls + Flamespeaker = golden.

I run 1x Recruiter and 1 Aegis just to have the ability to get Hexproof. It works because not always does the opponent have the ultra fast kill.

[Twiedel]

Forgot to mention that in my previous post: I have cut one Aegis and one Relic-Warder from the Maindeck, as I wanted to card I hate the most when playing against it: Ethersworn Canonist. Nice Creature types, and I love how it slows the opponent down to an almost unBEARable speed.
I agree on -1 Mountain + 1 Plateau, as this deck should not get wasted so often and one Mountain is completely fine against a deck doing that.
The Recruiter approach is certainly interesting, but I feel like tutoring for three to then drop something for two the next turn (that they know is coming) is not where I want to be against Oath/Storm/Drawspells. Certainly ok to good as a one-of, but that's not my playstyle

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Cannonist is certainly interesting and worth testing more. My main concern would be come mid/late game, when revealing multiple cards off flamespeaker and wanting to cast more then 1 of them and cannonist is in play would get pretty annoying I would imagine. Maybe it's not a big deal since I hadn't put extensive testing into the card

The main reason this is a concern is because I have won many games vs non toxic deluge decks by just swarming out the board due to flamespeaker keeping me going.

Cannonist may just be a meta game call really. A deck like this is so extremely customizable