"Simians Mom" aka RW Death and Taxes

[msg67183]

I've made some upgrades.  Obtained a Wasteland, 2x Containment Priest, Ruby, Pearl.  It's obviously better now.  The deck is great except there isn't so much Oath on MTGO, so I've been trying to discover another 2 drop that is just solid in the Gush and Shop matchups.  Thinking of possibly 2x Goblin Legionnaire 2x 4x Containment Priest*.  Any ideas for RW creatures that can be dominant in the land of Mishra's Factories and Prowess triggers? Precinct Captain?

I know Stormanimagus uses Eidolon of Rhetoric against mentor and pyromancer.

[serracollector]

Can always try fulminator mage. Its human. On color and def stop factory.

[vaughnbros]

Idk about these other suggestions, but Magus of the moon is pretty good at stopping mishra's factory and also good at restricting your opponents ability to cast spells in general.

[desolutionist]

Actually I think I'm going back to 2 Stoneforge, 1 Jitte, 1 Batterskull package.  The inspiration comes from a loss I had last night to Stoneforge/Mentor.  I've been siding into Umezawa's Jitte every game because it's so good vs. Delver, Mentor, Terra Nova and that's all I play against. I'm 9-3 over 3 daily events with this deck. I've lost only to Mentor decks, but I've beaten them too. The streamlined Mentor decks are easy to beat; I only have trouble against random things like Batterskull and Narset

[Guli]

You were live yesterday against brassman. You won against his pyromancer build. That Keldon Megoliths was strong!

[desolutionist]

Yeah I know. I beat the great Atog Lord the other day too.  I don't think this deck is particularly good it just falls really nicely in the metagame; all you have to do is play your cards right and this deck comes out ahead. Right now, the best thing a blue deck can do with their turn is cast Preordain and I'm okay with that!  Maybe if they start to play bigger threats and/or sweeper effects I'll have a problem.

[nedleeds]

I would say Suphur Elemental vs. Monks but ... that won't end well for your team. If you are taxing them and they have to tap out for the Mentor there is Fiend Hunter. Relying on sorcery speed damage effects vs. Monk is pretty bad, so I think the ETB damage creatures are right out.

@serra Fulminator Mage is absolutely not Human. Avalanche Riders are.

[desolutionist]

Mentor loses to Sudden Shock and Plowshares; not really a concern.  Was just looking for creatures that might have more utility overall than Aegis of the Gods.  I've been using Hammer Mage, but Containment Priest is quite good because of its Flash mechanic. Playing 4 Containment Priests is probably the right call.

[Lurker101]

Has Jaya Ballard, Task Mage been considered? Her third ability mostly won't matter but her first two abilities are relevant to answering plenty of threats. For  and a card she can kill any thing blue (delver, tapped Ojutai, Consecrated Sphinx, Jaces, Tezzeret, Narset etc.) while for  and a card she can burn out Mentor, Pyromancer, Lodestone, anything else with toughness 3 or less). On top of all that flexibility she's a human for caverns and has a CMC of 3. I'm planning on testing her out in a similar w/r list once I get my PC fixed and can start playing MTGO. I think she's underrated.

[xouman]

I used her in the past. My opponents were afraid of her most of the time, but for me it was an important waste of tempo. If you attack with her, you are losing the abilities. If you keep mana open just in case, it's a dead card. And if you use her, you are losing a card. I would try to fit her in a deck taking advantage of discarding (madness, squees, bloodghasts...). She is great as a silver bullet to answer certain threats, but in a solid control deck.

[BalduvianBears]

Finished in the top 4 with this list today at TDG in NJ!!!

3 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sudden Shock
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Containment Priest
3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Plateau
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Keldon Megoliths
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

SIDEBOARD
4 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Umezawas Jitte
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Shattering Spree
1 Wasteland
2 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Revoker

Hey Josh and the rest of the people in this thread! I'm heading to Eternal Weekend this year for the first time and figured this would be a pretty darn good place to get my first Vintage experience.  I've followed the format a bit since Vintage Masters came out and have been playing Legacy for the last 2-3 years, so I'm not completely foreign to eternal formats.

With that said, I have two main questions -- one around the evolution of @oshkoshhaitsyosh's decklist and the other around non-power options.

[1] DECKLIST QUESTION(S)

I was curious about which edits were good/bad between the last list @oshkoshhaitsyosh posted (which I referenced) and the one before it.  Here's the summary:

MAINBOARD
-1 Mother of Runes (from 4 to 3)
-1 Grim Lavamancer (from 2 to 1)
+1 Phyrexian Revoker (from 2 to 3)
+1 Lightning Bolt (from 0 to 1)

SIDEBOARD
+2 Umezawa's Jitte (from 0 to 2)
-1 Phyrexian Revoker (from 2 to 1, but looks like it was moved to the maindeck)
-1 REB (from 1 to 0)
+1 Shattering Spree (from 0 to 1)
-1 Path to Exile (from 3 to 2)

At first glance, it looks like we're increasing the hate against shops and other fair decks and giving up hate against Blue decks.  Of course, I'm going to start with this list and playtest to see what works/doesn't work and go from there.

[2] NON-POWER OPTIONS

If I were to build a version of the deck for the Budget challenge at Eternal Weekend, would I replace with more mana sources, or can I put more action in the deck?  If I don't need the mana, then I was thinking about trying out SFM.  If I do need mana, would I go with something like Mox Diamond/Lotus Petal for the fast mana or just replace with lands?

Thanks in advance for the feedback! Looking forward to exploring Vintage!!

- Celso
@BalduvianBears

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Finished in the top 4 with this list today at TDG in NJ!!!

3 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sudden Shock
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Containment Priest
3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Plateau
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Keldon Megoliths
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

SIDEBOARD
4 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Umezawas Jitte
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Shattering Spree
1 Wasteland
2 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Revoker

Hey Josh and the rest of the people in this thread! I'm heading to Eternal Weekend this year for the first time and figured this would be a pretty darn good place to get my first Vintage experience.  I've followed the format a bit since Vintage Masters came out and have been playing Legacy for the last 2-3 years, so I'm not completely foreign to eternal formats.

With that said, I have two main questions -- one around the evolution of @oshkoshhaitsyosh's decklist and the other around non-power options.

[1] DECKLIST QUESTION(S)

I was curious about which edits were good/bad between the last list @oshkoshhaitsyosh posted (which I referenced) and the one before it.  Here's the summary:

MAINBOARD
-1 Mother of Runes (from 4 to 3)
-1 Grim Lavamancer (from 2 to 1)
+1 Phyrexian Revoker (from 2 to 3)
+1 Lightning Bolt (from 0 to 1)

SIDEBOARD
+2 Umezawa's Jitte (from 0 to 2)
-1 Phyrexian Revoker (from 2 to 1, but looks like it was moved to the maindeck)
-1 REB (from 1 to 0)
+1 Shattering Spree (from 0 to 1)
-1 Path to Exile (from 3 to 2)

At first glance, it looks like we're increasing the hate against shops and other fair decks and giving up hate against Blue decks.  Of course, I'm going to start with this list and playtest to see what works/doesn't work and go from there.

[2] NON-POWER OPTIONS

If I were to build a version of the deck for the Budget challenge at Eternal Weekend, would I replace with more mana sources, or can I put more action in the deck?  If I don't need the mana, then I was thinking about trying out SFM.  If I do need mana, would I go with something like Mox Diamond/Lotus Petal for the fast mana or just replace with lands?

Thanks in advance for the feedback! Looking forward to exploring Vintage!!

- Celso
@BalduvianBears

Hey, all the changes are meta game dependent and changes I make in order to fight an evolving metagame. I'd say if youre cutting the 3 power cards, you need to replace them with mana. Diamond/petal/karakas might be an option...or put the 3rd wasteland over karakas...

Good luck at Champs. I'll be there as well

[xouman]

I never advise control decks to people new in the format, and this deck is kind of control. Too many hard decissions!!

Just to give my opinion, 3 sudden,1 bolt and 1 lavamancer seem too much on certain metagames, but the list looks pretty solid and could be ok. Karakas indeed seems the best replacement for power,but it's like power itself...

[BalduvianBears]

Hey, all the changes are meta game dependent and changes I make in order to fight an evolving metagame. I'd say if youre cutting the 3 power cards, you need to replace them with mana. Diamond/petal/karakas might be an option...or put the 3rd wasteland over karakas...

Good luck at Champs. I'll be there as well

So I sleeved up the latest @oshkoshhaitsyosh list that I referenced before (haven't replaced power yet just to get a feel for the deck and the mana) and proxied up Frobots that took 2nd at NYSE, and I felt like I just got smashed in the mainboard games because of the evasion in Ravager in addition to the normal threats that Shops have.

[1] Are Frobots something that'll be out in full force at Champs, or is there a more traditional Shops list out there that I should test against?  I plan to go home tonight and proxy up Oath and Mentor to continue playtesting in addition to Shops.

[2] If I do plan on cutting the power, does Stony Silence/Null Rod become a reasonable add to the maindeck?  I was thinking of cards that would've helped me a bunch against Frobots (and probably Shops as a whole), and those came to mind.  Sudden Shock was AMAZING against Ravager when they're not prepared for it, and I can see how powerful it is against Mentor, so I'm excited to cast those at champs!

[msg67183]

Hey, all the changes are meta game dependent and changes I make in order to fight an evolving metagame. I'd say if youre cutting the 3 power cards, you need to replace them with mana. Diamond/petal/karakas might be an option...or put the 3rd wasteland over karakas...

Good luck at Champs. I'll be there as well

So I sleeved up the latest @oshkoshhaitsyosh list that I referenced before (haven't replaced power yet just to get a feel for the deck and the mana) and proxied up Frobots that took 2nd at NYSE, and I felt like I just got smashed in the mainboard games because of the evasion in Ravager in addition to the normal threats that Shops have.

[1] Are Frobots something that'll be out in full force at Champs, or is there a more traditional Shops list out there that I should test against?  I plan to go home tonight and proxy up Oath and Mentor to continue playtesting in addition to Shops.

[2] If I do plan on cutting the power, does Stony Silence/Null Rod become a reasonable add to the maindeck?  I was thinking of cards that would've helped me a bunch against Frobots (and probably Shops as a whole), and those came to mind.  Sudden Shock was AMAZING against Ravager when they're not prepared for it, and I can see how powerful it is against Mentor, so I'm excited to cast those at champs!

When you build an Unpowered/ Low amount of Power deck, you must make sure you have plenty of Turn one plays, even while on the draw.
I like the idea of Stony/ Null Rod, another card I really like against Shops Variants is Serenity. Just some ideas I thought I'd give you.

[BalduvianBears]

When you build an Unpowered/ Low amount of Power deck, you must make sure you have plenty of Turn one plays, even while on the draw.
I like the idea of Stony/ Null Rod, another card I really like against Shops Variants is Serenity. Just some ideas I thought I'd give you.

With the T1 plays, I do like the fact that SSG is in the deck to power out a quick play.  But for that same reason, I'll def replace one of the power cards with Lotus Petal to get another explosive play.  I'd love to use Mox Diamond, but I'm sure I'll hit the awkward one-land/one-mox hand that I'll have to ship.  I suppose Chrome Mox is an option, but I don't think I want to get rid of a business spell.  Then again, I could pitch a card that's dead in the matchup.

Serenity is another sweet card I forgot about since I've only seen it in Tin Fins.  One downside I see is that kills Spirit of the Lab, Revokers, and whatever mana rocks that do end up in the decks (even equipment).  I've found when I can cut them off activated abilities, their cards aren't all that scary, especially since our deck can play fairly well around Chalice.

[desolutionist]

I don't feel turn one play against Shops is as important in this "Fish" deck as past ones. A lot of what this deck does is reactive (Revoker, Relic-Warder, Ingot Chewer, Swords, Wasteland) You basically just want to keep their fatties off the table, trade Swords with Lands, waste their shops, deny mana with Revoker, and watch as they are crippled by their own spheres

[Bluediamonds]

Would running some number of mental missteps count as increasing the turn 1 play count?

[BalduvianBears]

I don't feel turn one play against Shops is as important in this "Fish" deck as past ones. A lot of what this deck does is reactive (Revoker, Relic-Warder, Ingot Chewer, Swords, Wasteland) You basically just want to keep their fatties off the table, trade Swords with Lands, waste their shops, deny mana with Revoker, and watch as they are crippled by their own spheres

Thank you for pointing out some of the key plays against Shops.  Most of them seemed to be straightforward, but I didn't think about saving Swords/Shocks for the Factories (I usually tried to take some of the pressure off by aiming them at their bigger guys until I built a board state).

Question for you and the rest of the thread -- has there been any hot tech in testing that's worth trying??

Love chatting with the folks on this thread -- getting me more and more excited to play Vintage! 

[desolutionist]

Mana denial has been good in the shop matchup. So one white to exile a land is pretty good, provided you also have something else in case of a Lodestone or something.

I maindeck a Jitte and sideboard a Jitte. And the 2nd Jitte usually comes in every match. It's such a good card in the meta and really good in the shop matchup as well. I've also liked Hammer Mage as tech against Steel City Vault. No more than 2 though. Also If I were to play this deck again I would try 4 Stoneforge, 1 Batterskull, 1 Jitte. But Josh mentioned he didn't like them as much.

[BalduvianBears]

Mana denial has been good in the shop matchup. So one white to exile a land is pretty good, provided you also have something else in case of a Lodestone or something.

I maindeck a Jitte and sideboard a Jitte. And the 2nd Jitte usually comes in every match. It's such a good card in the meta and really good in the shop matchup as well. I've also liked Hammer Mage as tech against Steel City Vault. No more than 2 though. Also If I were to play this deck again I would try 4 Stoneforge, 1 Batterskull, 1 Jitte. But Josh mentioned he didn't like them as much.

Def going to try out Hammer Mage -- I know I'm hedging my maindeck more towards hating Shops (since I'm expecting that to be the most popular deck at Champs), but I do have some Mentor, Oath, and Delver hate in the side:

Current Mainboard
3x Containment Priest
2x Hammer Mage
4x Leonin Relic-Warder
3x Mother of Runes
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Prophetic Flamespeaker
4x Spirit of the Labyrinth
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

3x Sudden Shock
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte

1x Lotus Petal
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Arid Mesa
4x Cavern of Souls
2x Flooded Strand
1x Keldon Megaliths
1x Mountain
2x Plains
4x Plateau
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Strip Mine
2x Wasteland

Sideboard
1x Containment Priest
3x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Ingot Chewer
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Sudden Shock
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Wasteland

QUESTION: Does anyone know of any stock Oath/Mentor/Delver (or any other current popular archetypes) decklists that I should consider in testing?  For the time being, I'm looking at TCDecks.net at recent Vintage events of considerable side and starting there for now.

[Bluediamonds]

You can just go to mtgtop8 or mtggoldfish for the mtgo vintage lists

[desolutionist]

You definitely don't want Lotus Petal. And this deck is leagues better with Ruby and Pearl.  Fast temporary mana is not what this deck wants.  Simian Spirit Guide is great because its a Red mana through Spheres or a 2/2 against Blue. Lotus Petal, Crome Mox, or Mox Diamond are terrible cards for this deck and simply dont do what the Spirit Guide does.  A Ruby, Pearl, or both is also the difference in top 16 gauranteed or 1-2 drop

[BalduvianBears]

You definitely don't want Lotus Petal. And this deck is leagues better with Ruby and Pearl.  Fast temporary mana is not what this deck wants.  Simian Spirit Guide is great because its a Red mana through Spheres or a 2/2 against Blue. Lotus Petal, Crome Mox, or Mox Diamond are terrible cards for this deck and simply dont do what the Spirit Guide does.  A Ruby, Pearl, or both is also the difference in top 16 gauranteed or 1-2 drop

I'm going for the budget challenge, hence why I cut the power (also don't own them).  Is a straight-up land better than Petal in that case?  When I looked at the two Moxen, I thought about another permanent source of that color in the deck (hence the +1 Strand, +1 Tarn).  As for Lotus, temp fast mana came to mind, which is why I thought about Lotus Petal in its place.  I agree with you that Chrome Mox Diamond don't seem to make sense because you creating card disadvantage to get the mana (Chrome Mox seems more offensive because you're giving up action for mana, and Mox Diamond requires a higher land count so you can have 2 lands [one to pitch for Diamond] and Diamond in hand.

[msg67183]

You definitely don't want Lotus Petal. And this deck is leagues better with Ruby and Pearl.  Fast temporary mana is not what this deck wants.  Simian Spirit Guide is great because its a Red mana through Spheres or a 2/2 against Blue. Lotus Petal, Crome Mox, or Mox Diamond are terrible cards for this deck and simply dont do what the Spirit Guide does.  A Ruby, Pearl, or both is also the difference in top 16 gauranteed or 1-2 drop

I'm going for the budget challenge, hence why I cut the power (also don't own them).  Is a straight-up land better than Petal in that case?  When I looked at the two Moxen, I thought about another permanent source of that color in the deck (hence the +1 Strand, +1 Tarn).  As for Lotus, temp fast mana came to mind, which is why I thought about Lotus Petal in its place.  I agree with you that Chrome Mox Diamond don't seem to make sense because you creating card disadvantage to get the mana (Chrome Mox seems more offensive because you're giving up action for mana, and Mox Diamond requires a higher land count so you can have 2 lands [one to pitch for Diamond] and Diamond in hand.

Having played the Unpowered version at last year's Champs. I will say you need more permanent mana sources as I lost both my Shops matchups. I also feel the deck needs Serenity to beat them since the card is so strong against them. In all honesty I feel Revoker is not needed as it auto names Dack against blue. The problem I had with Spirit of the Labyrinth is the 1 Toughness. It's pretty poor against Delver decks as there it is basically just an enchantment since it trades with everything and is so easilly removed.

[BalduvianBears]

Having played the Unpowered version at last year's Champs. I will say you need more permanent mana sources as I lost both my Shops matchups. I also feel the deck needs Serenity to beat them since the card is so strong against them. In all honesty I feel Revoker is not needed as it auto names Dack against blue. The problem I had with Spirit of the Labyrinth is the 1 Toughness. It's pretty poor against Delver decks as there it is basically just an enchantment since it trades with everything and is so easilly removed.

So does that imply that you're recommending that (A) I make Lotus Petal a permanent mana source as well (probably another fetchland or 2nd mountain or even Sacred Foundry considering we have a couple of  and  spells), or (B) keep Petal and continue to have the Moxen replaced by the fetches I alluded to before (or another type of permanent mana source like Foundry or basics), and/or (C) up the land count to something like 23 lands from 22 + Petal?

Also, have you played with Hammer Mage as well?  Seems like Serenity gets around Revoker naming Hammer Mage, but it also wipes out any Revokers that you do have with Spirit (but I can see where both of those cards are vanilla 2/1's and 3/1's in certain matchups).  Not sure if you compared the two and still ended up liking Serenity.

[msg67183]

Having played the Unpowered version at last year's Champs. I will say you need more permanent mana sources as I lost both my Shops matchups. I also feel the deck needs Serenity to beat them since the card is so strong against them. In all honesty I feel Revoker is not needed as it auto names Dack against blue. The problem I had with Spirit of the Labyrinth is the 1 Toughness. It's pretty poor against Delver decks as there it is basically just an enchantment since it trades with everything and is so easilly removed.

So does that imply that you're recommending that (A) I make Lotus Petal a permanent mana source as well (probably another fetchland or 2nd mountain or even Sacred Foundry considering we have a couple of  and  spells), or (B) keep Petal and continue to have the Moxen replaced by the fetches I alluded to before (or another type of permanent mana source like Foundry or basics), and/or (C) up the land count to something like 23 lands from 22 + Petal?

Also, have you played with Hammer Mage as well?  Seems like Serenity gets around Revoker naming Hammer Mage, but it also wipes out any Revokers that you do have with Spirit (but I can see where both of those cards are vanilla 2/1's and 3/1's in certain matchups).  Not sure if you compared the two and still ended up liking Serenity.

I recommend 3-5 basics in the list on top of 4 Plateau. I'm not a fan of Keldon Megaliths if you are planning on using that, but that's just my opinion. I also just love the card Serenity. Maybe play Abolish + Crucible of Worlds for Shops?

[desolutionist]

Maybe if you're going the budget route, you should max out on Wastelands instead of more basics because that card is ridiculously good against everything, especially Workshops. 

[BalduvianBears]

I recommend 3-5 basics in the list on top of 4 Plateau. I'm not a fan of Keldon Megaliths if you are planning on using that, but that's just my opinion. I also just love the card Serenity. Maybe play Abolish + Crucible of Worlds for Shops?

Maybe if you're going the budget route, you should max out on Wastelands instead of more basics because that card is ridiculously good against everything, especially Workshops. 

Both interesting thoughts here.  There clearly is a tension between wanting to keep some opponents off mana, especially Workshop due because of the explosiveness the deck gets when it's in play, as well as not getting color-screwed if we want to play 4 LD lands and 4 semi-colored lands (which gets more awkward when we want to cast Relic-Warder or Flamespeaker).  Then again, the Legacy D&T deck that's splashing Red (albeit they have Vial and no  or  cards) plays 8 colorless lands + 1 Cavern.  I'll have to put some serious thought on how to make it work yet.  @msg67183 -- I can see the pro/con of Megaliths (kills a lot of things but requires Hellbent) but haven't drawn it enough to lean one way or the other year.

Props to @desolutionist because I've been really happy with Hammer Mage as well as 2 Jitte (card was a house against Mentor and is gas when equipped to Flamespeaker!).  Any reason why I can't access 3x Hammer Mage?  In play, they're redundant, but can't I just pitch the extra copies?  Or am I missing something else as I'm evaluating the card?  Nonetheless, it was bananas when I could activate for 3+ to get SoFI and lock pieces.

Moved onto testing against Mentor last night and felt really good about the matchup when I was able to dump uncounterable Spirit of the Labyrinths against them to turn off BDEV minus DTT (is DTT a problematic card in this matchup anyways?).  Next stops are Oath, Delver, and Martello/Forgemaster Shops.

[BalduvianBears]

Some other notes from playtesting last night:

• Shaving a Containment Priest from the maindeck were good against Frobots and Mentor, but I don't know how much of a beating it's going to cost me against Oath. I'll find that out in due time.  -- Same comment applies to shaving the 4th StP.
• The 4th Thalia was totally worth it.  It's great to harass the Blue decks by wasting their duals and taxing their spells (and even cutting them off card draw).  And 2/1 w/ first strike is still a very reasonable attacker (esp w/ Jitte and Sudden Shock), so I think adding the 4th copy to draw her early seems very resaonable.