Vintage Super League

[Coopes]

Reminder that the tournament resumes tomorrow night.

I face LSV (5-0 v. 4-1) so it's a pretty big deal.  If I go to 6-0 I'll have defeated both of the current X-1s.  Otherwise, we'll have a potential 3-way tie at the top.

good luck!

[diophan]

I'm gonna root for LSV this one time, since i like his deck.

It's win-win either way. If LSV wins, well my favorite deck wins, if steve wins the chances that my prediction is true will be higher.

LSV wasted all his luck on his hands from the video he posted on channelfireball, so Steve has got this.

[Smmenen]

I'm gonna root for LSV this one time, since i like his deck.

It's win-win either way. If LSV wins, well my favorite deck wins, if steve wins the chances that my prediction is true will be higher.

wow.  rooting for PT player over lowly vintage community member?  ouch

[tito del monte]

Oh man! That game 2 was epic! Great stuff from both of you!

[nedleeds]

I'm gonna root for LSV this one time, since i like his deck.

It's win-win either way. If LSV wins, well my favorite deck wins, if steve wins the chances that my prediction is true will be higher.

wow.  rooting for PT player over lowly vintage community member?  ouch

People would be more sympathetic to you if you were playing Gorilla Shamans in addition to the other 39 cards in your deck that say destroy an artifact

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm gonna root for LSV this one time, since i like his deck.

It's win-win either way. If LSV wins, well my favorite deck wins, if steve wins the chances that my prediction is true will be higher.

wow.  rooting for PT player over lowly vintage community member?  ouch

Rough games, brah.  You lost game 1 to an insane draw from LSV that was his to lose, and game 2 just sort of broke down over time.  PT player or no, I've watched some LSV's streams, and the man really knows his stuff.  Sort of a Magic renaissance man, he's precise, careful, and knowledgeable about every format from what I can tell.  It's no stain on his reputation that he spends most of his time in other formats, and no shame to lose to him!

[Smmenen]

I'm gonna root for LSV this one time, since i like his deck.

It's win-win either way. If LSV wins, well my favorite deck wins, if steve wins the chances that my prediction is true will be higher.

wow.  rooting for PT player over lowly vintage community member?  ouch

Rough games, brah.  You lost game 1 to an insane draw from LSV that was his to lose, and game 2 just sort of broke down over time.  PT player or no, I've watched some LSV's streams, and the man really knows his stuff.  Sort of a Magic renaissance man, he's precise, careful, and knowledgeable about every format from what I can tell.  It's no stain on his reputation that he spends most of his time in other formats, and no shame to lose to him!

yeah, but my point is that rooting for a pro is rooting for the away team insofar as this competition is framed as a Pro Tour players v. "Vintage players."  

I'm not sure what you meant by the game breaking over time - I just made a blunder with the Flusterstorm that cost me the game.  I miscounted, and could have Pyroblasted the Tinker, and instead had to use two Flusterstorms, wasting the one in my hand.  Had I done that right, I win that game.  

[The Atog Lord]

I'm not sure what you meant by the game breaking over time - I just made a blunder with the Flusterstorm that cost me the game.

No need to feel bad, Steve. Despite that one misplay, you still played a very complex match very well and showed us some really skilled Magic. LSV also put on a display of extremely smart, patient play. It made for one of the best games of Magic I've watched in a very long time. I think I can learn a lot by studying the replay.

[fsecco]

I'm so happy we got handcams on both players this time. It made the game ultra-epic and a very, very good display of skill from both sides. Shows how handcams make everything nicer to the viewers!

[Hrishi]

I'm gonna root for LSV this one time, since i like his deck.

It's win-win either way. If LSV wins, well my favorite deck wins, if steve wins the chances that my prediction is true will be higher.

wow.  rooting for PT player over lowly vintage community member?  ouch

Rough games, brah.  You lost game 1 to an insane draw from LSV that was his to lose, and game 2 just sort of broke down over time.  PT player or no, I've watched some LSV's streams, and the man really knows his stuff.  Sort of a Magic renaissance man, he's precise, careful, and knowledgeable about every format from what I can tell.  It's no stain on his reputation that he spends most of his time in other formats, and no shame to lose to him!

yeah, but my point is that rooting for a pro is rooting for the away team insofar as this competition is framed as a Pro Tour players v. "Vintage players."  

I'm not sure what you meant by the game breaking over time - I just made a blunder with the Flusterstorm that cost me the game.  I miscounted, and could have Pyroblasted the Tinker, and instead had to use two Flusterstorms, wasting the one in my hand.  Had I done that right, I win that game.  

While I don't deny that it was a mistake flusterstorming there, would having the fluster been enough? LSV might have had enough mana to simply pay for it when he cast Will. I could be wrong though.

[Smmenen]

I'm gonna root for LSV this one time, since i like his deck.

It's win-win either way. If LSV wins, well my favorite deck wins, if steve wins the chances that my prediction is true will be higher.

wow.  rooting for PT player over lowly vintage community member?  ouch

Rough games, brah.  You lost game 1 to an insane draw from LSV that was his to lose, and game 2 just sort of broke down over time.  PT player or no, I've watched some LSV's streams, and the man really knows his stuff.  Sort of a Magic renaissance man, he's precise, careful, and knowledgeable about every format from what I can tell.  It's no stain on his reputation that he spends most of his time in other formats, and no shame to lose to him!

yeah, but my point is that rooting for a pro is rooting for the away team insofar as this competition is framed as a Pro Tour players v. "Vintage players."  

I'm not sure what you meant by the game breaking over time - I just made a blunder with the Flusterstorm that cost me the game.  I miscounted, and could have Pyroblasted the Tinker, and instead had to use two Flusterstorms, wasting the one in my hand.  Had I done that right, I win that game.  

Why I don't deny that it was a mistake flusterstorming there, would having the fluster been enough? LSV might have had enough mana to simply pay for it when he cast Will. I could be wrong though.

If I had that Flusterstorm for the REB at the end, I win, I believe.  

Moreover, if I have that Flusterstorm in hand, the whole game plays out differently and better for me.   Remember, I ended up pitching a Misdirection to Misdirection.  If I had that Flusterstorm, I could have pitched it instead, and had a hard backup counter for REB, or used that to Misd the Bolt.  

The other big error in the late game was Forcing Bolt on Trygon.  At that point I had two Pyromancers and a Time Walk in my deck - more than enough to win with 8 cards in my library.  If I save that Force, I can stop Yawg Will, and win, just barely, I believe.

While that was a blunder, I also made a number of more subtle mistakes I covered in my stream last night (http://www.twitch.tv/smmenen/b/573788317)L

* I discarded Tropical Island midgame instead of discarding Tarn, and inhibited my total mana production.  That prevented me from doing things like playing Ponder & hardcasting a Force or Misd

* I probably should have Gushed in response to Bolt on Pyromancer (drawing to 8 cards in my library) just to generate the token.  

* I probably should have played the 2nd Null Rod the turn I drew it just in case he has an Ingot Chewer in his deck.  

Among others...

[fsecco]

I'm also rooting basically for good games, like this one yesterday. It would be very nice if either you or Rich won, but I really don't mind the outcome. For me the main profit of VSL it the visibility of Vintage.

[Smmenen]

I'm not sure what you meant by the game breaking over time - I just made a blunder with the Flusterstorm that cost me the game.

No need to feel bad, Steve. Despite that one misplay, you still played a very complex match very well and showed us some really skilled Magic. LSV also put on a display of extremely smart, patient play. It made for one of the best games of Magic I've watched in a very long time. I think I can learn a lot by studying the replay.

Thanks Rich.  Hopefully it helps expand some interest in the format, even though I was embarrassed by my misplays.

[Killane]

You're still 5-1 in what has to be one of the most difficult tournaments in the world. The skill level is insanely high. Think about how much the commentators hype the high skill level at Wordl's for example- this tournament is not dissimilar, expecially given that each and every one fo the Vintage players would be in a Vintage HoF, if there was such a thing, and heck Pikula barely missed the HoF on his last ballot. No shame in one loss in that tournament.

This tournament has been one of the best streams of MTG to watch in ages. It's strategically diverse, the matches are deep, complex, and have incredible amounts of interaction. It might not represent a typical Vintage metagame, but it does a great job of showing off magic's best constructed format. I wish it was getting more attention - whil production values aren't as high as say, an SCG open, the actual Magic being played is far more intersting and deep.

[evouga]

No matter how the standings turn out, everybody participating in the VSL should be aware of how tremendously their efforts are increasing the visibility of Vintage and erasing misconceptions many newer players have about the format.

Yesterday's match between LSV and Steve made the front page of the MTG subreddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2i06m5/lsv_vs_menedian_vsl_the_second_game_of_this_match/) and top-rated comments include

I kinda realize what the grognards mean when they say that these combat-focussed games of today don't really feel like magic.

I think the biggest change for me was that I went from feeling like I was the threat to being some kind of monster-trainer who just summons threats.

Playing on the board is ok, Modern is a ton of fun for that; but Vintage and to a lesser Extent Legacy just do so much more to reward out-thinking instead of just outplaying your opponent.

Surprise, Vintage is an AWESOME format. Nobody knew it due to the absurd buy-in in paper, but it's really always been pretty kickass for those who could afford to play it.

[fsecco]

I think Rich will also change decks. I mean, he lost a lot with slaver this second way around. And if I was playing, I'd want to play at least 2 different decks in the whole thing.

[thecrav]

Thanks for highlighting those quotes, evouga. Seems like a lot of newer players on that subreddit used to hate on older players because the older players didn't like the new game as much and they're starting to understand why.

[aahz]

That game really felt a lot like the experience of playing BBS vs. Keeper in the series of playing invasion block vintage*.
It also show cases why i don't really like having excessive amounts of counterspells in the control mirror.

I'm trying to put together some educated guesses on what people are gonna play for the next 3 matches, but it is really starting to get difficult. I think everyone except shay is going to change decks, i would wager that Menendian is going for yet another gush deck.

*http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=46737.new#new

OSE, no Factories. WTF!?!

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm not sure what you meant by the game breaking over time - I just made a blunder with the Flusterstorm that cost me the game.  I miscounted, and could have Pyroblasted the Tinker, and instead had to use two Flusterstorms, wasting the one in my hand.  Had I done that right, I win that game.  

I don't know if its quite that simple.  As you mentioned, there were other choices that could have changed the game, too.  I was referring to the fact that the game was one of counterspell attrition.  LSV was trying to wear you out so he could finally resolve his threats.  The goof with Flusterstorm just helped him along there.  There was never a time when he could force something through until the last possible moment.

[Smmenen]

No matter how the standings turn out, everybody participating in the VSL should be aware of how tremendously their efforts are increasing the visibility of Vintage and erasing misconceptions many newer players have about the format.

Yesterday's match between LSV and Steve made the front page of the MTG subreddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2i06m5/lsv_vs_menedian_vsl_the_second_game_of_this_match/) and top-rated comments include

I kinda realize what the grognards mean when they say that these combat-focussed games of today don't really feel like magic.

I think the biggest change for me was that I went from feeling like I was the threat to being some kind of monster-trainer who just summons threats.


Playing on the board is ok, Modern is a ton of fun for that; but Vintage and to a lesser Extent Legacy just do so much more to reward out-thinking instead of just outplaying your opponent.

Surprise, Vintage is an AWESOME format. Nobody knew it due to the absurd buy-in in paper, but it's really always been pretty kickass for those who could afford to play it.

Wow, that's a crazy thread.

Also, funny that the Youtube video has nearly 12,000! views.

That's insane.  that's more than Pro Tour streams, right? 

[zimagic]

We're skipping PT week and back next tuesday, right?

Good, I can catch up on the matches I haven't watched yet! 

[Smmenen]

hope everyone enjoyed the matches this week. 

Rich Shay v. LSV next week is going to be a doozy.

Looks like Khans cards are everywhere. 

[evouga]

I've been wondering -- if you're facing a deck with Will, 4x Treasure Cruise, and some number of Snapcaster Mages, does that justify siding in the Leyline anti-Dredge package?

Topdecking a Leyline sure feels miserable, but in principle you're sacrificing four slots to, at a minimum, neuter their best card and four very potent components of their draw engine, which seems like a favorable trade.

[Samoht]

I've been wondering -- if you're facing a deck with Will, 4x Treasure Cruise, and some number of Snapcaster Mages, does that justify siding in the Leyline anti-Dredge package?

Topdecking a Leyline sure feels miserable, but in principle you're sacrificing four slots to, at a minimum, neuter their best card and four very potent components of their draw engine, which seems like a favorable trade.

Anyone playing 4 Cruise/Dig and Will is just wrong.

[tito del monte]

Some entertaining matches this week - LSV got mad lucky with Mana Crypt but played some really entertaining stuff. Could watch him play or talk about Magic until the cows come home. To have him dedicating some time to Vintage is something we can all be really happy about.

Interesting to see so many people on the updated Steel City Vault list. I think Inkwell is definitely the Tinker-bot of choice right now (unless you're Weldering), as not only has Dack Fayden popped up, but people have become complacent about packing Edict effects, I guess largely going with Toxic Deluge instead. If people are slowly cutting black from control lists to play the delve cards, then I guess that trend will continue.

Amazing to see both Cruise and Dig have such an impact. I've been gold fishing something with Dig and it feels so damn good to have an unrestricted blue draw engine again. Long may it continue!

Thanks to Steve, Rich and all the players for another entertaining week!

Now, how many Cruise/Dig in the Vintage Champs Top 8 anyone?

[fsecco]

I was very entertained to see people playing Dig and Cruise

IT really feels weird that those cards were released in the same set...

I think the only major misplay yesterday was Pikula blowing up the Explosives that early. I guess he was afraid of Tinker or other stuff the extra mana could allow, but he should AT LEAST have waited the next upkeep. Anyway, great matches as usual!

[Hrishi]

I think the only major misplay yesterday was Pikula blowing up the Explosives that early. I guess he was afraid of Tinker or other stuff the extra mana could allow, but he should AT LEAST have waited the next upkeep.

In his defense, LSV drew so many cards and dropped a Mana Crypt at like 5 life or something like that. I think it was reasonable to assume a Tinker was on the way, especially since he had used Spell Pierce to constrain his mana before Will. Although doing it on upkeep would have been better, would that have made a difference?

[Smmenen]

I thought Rich Shay's use of Treasure Cruise was pretty huge, too, drawing Misstep, among other cards.  

There is a curious lack of discussion of these Delve cards here.  Is it just because Vintage Champs is right around the corner?  

[The Atog Lord]

There tends to be a lack of discussion right before Champs, with everyone keeping their technology under wraps. For myself, I'm running something very close to what I would play at Champs if it were tomorrow. I might play a less metagamed version of the deck at Champs, however; I was expecting two or three of my opponents to be on blue decks.

[fsecco]

I think the only major misplay yesterday was Pikula blowing up the Explosives that early. I guess he was afraid of Tinker or other stuff the extra mana could allow, but he should AT LEAST have waited the next upkeep.

In his defense, LSV drew so many cards and dropped a Mana Crypt at like 5 life or something like that. I think it was reasonable to assume a Tinker was on the way, especially since he had used Spell Pierce to constrain his mana before Will. Although doing it on upkeep would have been better, would that have made a difference?

It could make a difference, since LSV ended that game with 1 life, if I remember correctly. If he had done during the upkeep, he could be at 2 life, making double FoW something he couldn't do, or FoW + fetch, or Vampiric, etc, etc.