Vintage Super League

[tito del monte]

Spectacular first week to the new season with all the combo and dredge floating around! But please, please, please can somebody ship Bob Maher a real deck for the next chunk of matches?!

[H]

I have not gotten a chance to watch yet, but does anyone know why Kai doesn't have a decklist up on the VSL site yet?

[tito del monte]

I have not gotten a chance to watch yet, but does anyone know why Kai doesn't have a decklist up on the VSL site yet?

He had Internet issues on arriving in Washington DC for the PT and couldn't play this week. He'll play two matches in Week 3 to catch up. Fingers crossed it's Trix

[policehq]

I have not gotten a chance to watch yet, but does anyone know why Kai doesn't have a decklist up on the VSL site yet?

Sorry if this has been posted before, but what site is that? Can you link me please?

[H]

I have not gotten a chance to watch yet, but does anyone know why Kai doesn't have a decklist up on the VSL site yet?

He had Internet issues on arriving in Washington DC for the PT and couldn't play this week. He'll play two matches in Week 3 to catch up. Fingers crossed it's Trix

Ah, ok, that makes sense then.

I have not gotten a chance to watch yet, but does anyone know why Kai doesn't have a decklist up on the VSL site yet?

Sorry if this has been posted before, but what site is that? Can you link me please?

http://vintagesuperleague.com/  

[nedleeds]

I got banned from the chat for screaming for Pikula to belch the Bloodghast and stack his deck  SHOOT THE GLASS! The commentators were mulling how he might win with leyline out and I spazzed. There were some interesting moments despite the presence of 2 turn 1 combo decks and dredge. 

[thecrav]

I got banned from the chat 

I thought that might be you. Even had a 2 in the name - not your first banning?

[diophan]

Rich: Interesting URw deck. Would you have played any monks if they were allowed? Would you have taken out pyromancers for them?

[The Atog Lord]

Thank you. I played the deck this weekend in real life with three Pyromancer and one Monk.

My suspicion is that the Monk will require a slightly more robust manabase. The fact that the Monk triggers off Moxen and Tops makes me want to use those cards in the deck. However, I haven't had a chance to test yet. I suspect that we can have a Delver-ish deck with Monk, as well as a larger deck with Monk, similar to what Kevin posted in another thread.

That said, Tony Shalhoub himself couldn't have stopped the epic beating that Belcher was handing out last night.

[JarofFortune]

That said, Tony Shalhoub himself couldn't have stopped the epic beating that Belcher was handing out last night.

Man I really miss that show.

As for the VSL itself, I'm looking forward to the next several Tuesdays. Thanks for bringing it back guys.

[The Atog Lord]

That said, Tony Shalhoub himself couldn't have stopped the epic beating that Belcher was handing out last night.

Man I really miss that show.

We all do

The VSL will be off next week, but will return the week after.

[Zharradan]

Thanks Rich, Steve, and the rest of the crew for doing the VSL. I happened to randomly come across the archives of Season 1 after it had finished, and took some time to go through and watch the lot.

I hadn't played any magic in about .. 10 years, or something like that. I had to keep pausing and looking pretty much everything up on Gatherer, since I don't recognise most of the stuff that sees play these days, nor most of the mechanics! It certainly seems like Vintage has changed significantly - last I knew about anything, people were drawing Superman logos on Morphling, and Psychotog had turned up to start wrecking house. The overwhelming mindset was that if your opponent had played a creature, that was pretty much a signal that you had already lost the game. Mana Drain was an instant four-of inclusion in pretty much every deck.

Everything is different! Dredge is just ... mind-boggling. Mana Drain doesn't even see any play, because some how it isn't powerful enough any more. Turns out all those Chicken Little fears about Wizards never printing anything Type 1 / Vintage playable again weren't just unfounded, but thoroughly ludicrous. If you have that opinion today, know that people held that belief ten years ago, and now what used to be rock-solid staples (in blue, no less) are just not good enough anymore.


Seeing the videos of the VSL on MTGO has got me interested in mtg again, and I'll quite probably try to get in to Vintage on MTGO. I like the presentation style also - having the other players commentate and able to see both competitors' hands so they can make properly reasoned arguments about possible plays keeps it quite entertaining to watch.

[chrispikula]

Hi!

I'm glad people are enjoying VSL. I just wanted to chime in and say that in the best way to ask me questions about it etc... is twitter. I will sometimes check out TMD, but then I'll forget about it and not read anything here for 6 months at a time...

[The Atog Lord]

Zharradan, thanks for the glimpse into the past. I remember those days fondly.

And Chris, it is of course great to have you on TMD as much as possible. Please feel encouraged to Meddle here as often as you can.

[MaximumCDawg]

I just went through the first rounds of Season 2 on YouTube while in bed with a cold.  Good way to pass the time, and CONGRATS on the winners!  I am disappointing that the rogue deck paired up against Steve went down in flames so badly, but playing such a deck against a master with a tried and true machine in his hands is... difficult.  Here's hoping we see infinite life combos happening next round!

And congratulations to you crazy morons who are Charbelching your way to victory!  I  feel like you're exploiting a hole that has evolved in the Vintage metagame where the anti-mox package of 4x Null Rod, 4x Chalice is no longer the auto-include in aggro control decks that it used to be.  I perceive that artifact removal has replaced some of that due to the overwhelming need to deal with Shops, and aggro lists now can rely on heavy countermagic and other traditionally blue answers to deal with them.  So, we're missing that spectrum of hate that normally would make relying heavily on artifact mana a big liability.  

EDIT: Note that the same thing is happening with anti-Storm cards.  People play, what, 2-4 Flusterstorm and call it a day?  If a Storm deck ever figures out a way to beat Shops (and your deck is pretty close to that, really) then the meta seems vulnerable.

[Space_Stormy]

@ Zharradan

I stopped a bit when i realized that 10 years ago was only 2005! I remeber those days back when casting Bezerk on a Tog was the best thing ever and people still played Intuition for Accumlated Knowledge!  People playing Opt to get additional cantrips and helping my friend learn the original Long.dec with 4x LED and 4x Burning Wish.  Being a little 17 year old punk who just got the money together to get some Dual Lands to be at least competitive.  Stuff is so different now it is crazy.

[MisterFoote]

Zharradan, thanks for the glimpse into the past. I remember those days fondly.

And Chris, it is of course great to have you on TMD as much as possible. Please feel encouraged to Meddle here as often as you can.

Let us Meddle.

[healo]

Just watched whole S2W2 from archives. This is so awsome! I swear I could spent the rest of my life watching those guys play and discuss all the things going on. For example Rich and David observing Bob vs Kai match, that was so entertaining and insightful. I got immediately thirsty for some vintage action, had to start up my mtgo client and play few matches.. Keep it up guys, it really is something for this format.

[The Atog Lord]

Thank you!

[evouga]

Steve, watching the mirror match today raised some questions:

1. Neither you nor Eric seemed to have many cards in the sideboard for dealing with the Delver mirror. Given that Delver is the deck to beat these days, I found this surprising. Did you think the VSL would feature fewer Delver decks than Vintage at large?

2. In my opinion, the critical decision in game 3 was the choice not to Misstep Eric's T1 Preordain. Do you remember what motivated that choice? Were you saving both Missteps to guarantee your own cantrip would resolve, since you were digging for a second mana source?

Looking forward to the new decks next week! Hopefully we'll see at least one take on Gifts.

[Smmenen]

Steve, watching the mirror match today raised some questions:

1. Neither you nor Eric seemed to have many cards in the sideboard for dealing with the Delver mirror. Given that Delver is the deck to beat these days, I found this surprising. Did you think the VSL would feature fewer Delver decks than Vintage at large?

2. In my opinion, the critical decision in game 3 was the choice not to Misstep Eric's T1 Preordain. Do you remember what motivated that choice? Were you saving both Missteps to guarantee your own cantrip would resolve, since you were digging for a second mana source?

Looking forward to the new decks next week! Hopefully we'll see at least one take on Gifts.

1.  I actually did have a very important card for the Delver mirror which Eric didn't have: Fire/Ice.  I tested this match pretty intensively, and the most important card in this entire match was Fire.

This proved to be a crucial difference between our decks, but one, alas, I was unable to leverage in such a short suite of games.  My deck alone was capable of coming back against Pyromancer superiority.  

Because of the restriction of Treasure Cruise, I did indeed believe that few, if any, VSL players would be playing Delver.  Otherwise, I probably would have run another sweeper somewhere.  

2.  The problem with Misstepping the Preordain here is that I had a 1 land hand with a Prerodain that I needed to resolve.  Also, importantly, Eric's deck has an inordinate number of 1cc spells compared to most Delver decks because he has 2 maindeck Spell Pierce and Pyroblast and 4 Bolts, making Misstep one of the best, if not the very best, counterspell against his deck.  

Game 3 was extremely anomolous in the lack of 1cc spells he played.  

That said, there were things I would or should have done differently this match.  In game 3, I think not Missteping the Preordain was fine - I don't think that made a difference, and my decision not to was well founded.

I think the more important mistakes were:

1) Pitching Delver instead of the 2nd Misstep later in the game when Misstep was no longer that important.

2) not playing Delver (btw, it was correct, imo, NOT to play Delver on turn 3 to hold up the Pyroblast for Gush/Dig there, but I should have played it later in the game).

Had I played Delver, I think I could have possibly Mysticaled into Fire/Ice and stabilized at a very low life.   Possibly.  

When I played Treasure Cruise, the reason I was tanking was because I was trying to do the math for Mysticalling for Fire. I could have untapped and cast Fire, but if it resolved, I still would have lost to his 6 tokens (my life would have been 6).  

I prepared pretty intensively for this matchup.  There just wasn't much I could do.  My hand just interfaced poorly with his.  I'm sure if I go back and look, other things will pop out as things I could or should have done differently.  But, compared to some weeks, I was actually pretty happy with my play.  I think the biggest mistake I made in the entire match was in Game 2 actually.  

Much more frustrating for me was game 1.  I was really floored with what happened.  

I think Eric got extremely lucky to draw all 4 Pyromancers (in, what about 25 cards?)

But much more frustrating than that was the fact that his last card in hand, Gush, drew into his singleton Dig (with the Gush giving him the mana to play it)  That blew the game open for him.

When I played Flusterstorm on his Ponder, he had 1 card in his hand.  I cast it because he had Pyromancer in play, and each spell he plays gets more tokens.  But there was only really ONE reason not to do it: If he had Gush AND drew either the singleton Dig or singleton Treasure Cruise (his maindeck configuration has just 1 Dig).  

He not only had Gush, but he Gushed into Dig.  My worst fear was realized, but I take solace that it was quite improbable.  I think it was probably right to stop Ponder in that situation given what I was planning to do.

[youhavenogame]

1. Neither you nor Eric seemed to have many cards in the sideboard for dealing with the Delver mirror. Given that Delver is the deck to beat these days, I found this surprising. Did you think the VSL would feature fewer Delver decks than Vintage at large?

My question to you would be what kind of cards you think of here, because nothing comes to my mind that trumps the mirror. Cards like Electrickery are fine and situationally bombs, but they are still narrow answers if your opponent is just drawing cards. Adding more red blasts is probably the best SB option. You can't add too many cards though, because you can't take out a whole lot.

[xouman]

I usually played 1 pyrokinesis (or even 2) when I played a red deck in the past. While it's not a great card itself, it gave me lots of 3x2 in the past. Or even 3x1, but playing UR delver I cannot really expect to pay pyrokinesis by its cost (unless there lotus involved, but that's still 2 cards to pay for it).

[mueller]

I think the Black Lotus into Trygon play g1 was what decided the match considering you split the post-sideboard games. You ended up tapping out for Young Pyromancer and Trygon. Trygon traded with his Delver and he bolted your Pyromancer. If you had used Lotus to just play pyromancer and pass the turn with mana up, yes you would have taken damage from Delver, but if he had tried to bolt Pyromancer, you could not only defend it, but generate tokens in the process.

[The Atog Lord]

I think the plan for the mirror is to have uncounterable sweepers. They let you get ahead on the card-advantage battle while not worrying about the ground battle as much. I explained this during the commentary.

That said, it seems that Steve didn't expect much in the way of mirrors. That's a perfectly reasonable approach since Cruise was just hit by the restrictions. Deliver is proving a lot more resilient than folks expected.

[desolutionist]

Game 3 was extremely anomolous in the lack of 1cc spells he played.

From week 2:

"All Rich was holding was a pair of Missteps so Charbelcher was immediately lethal on the spot (much to the surprise of Chris who didn’t realize Rich’s 6 cards were all worthless"

It appears Mental Misstep being a worthless card is becoming a common theme.

[JarofFortune]

Game 3 was extremely anomolous in the lack of 1cc spells he played.

From week 2:

"All Rich was holding was a pair of Missteps so Charbelcher was immediately lethal on the spot (much to the surprise of Chris who didn’t realize Rich’s 6 cards were all worthless"

It appears Mental Misstep being a worthless card is becoming a common theme.

Wow, only two games out of 6 with decks full of one drops and missteps are close to dead. That card must really suck.

[The Atog Lord]

My build was not tuned to beat Belcher. I had expected Randy might be on Belcher. Never in my wildest dreams would I have expected it from Chris.

[Space_Stormy]

My build was not tuned to beat Belcher. I had expected Randy might be on Belcher. Never in my wildest dreams would I have expected it from Chris.

I have to agree with this.  This is the first time I have seen Chris with a combo deck in forever.  I think the last time was the Invitational he won with Vintage Trix back in 1999

[desolutionist]

Jar, sarcasm is terrible communication. What's the point?  There is a huge element of cookie-cutting within the Vintage community, and your dismissive sarcasm is making huge contributions toward keeping it that way

Rich, I was trying to make a point in the MDGifts thread that Mental Misstep isn't an automatic 4-of because it doesn't stop cards that actually win the game (Tinker in this scenario).  While still a good card, it wouldn't be a problem if blue pilots weren't cutting Mana Drain to play them.  With 4x Mental Misstep, 2x Flusterstorm, and 4x Force of Will, you only have 4 hard counters.

It must follow then a deck with that type of control suite is a tempo based control deck, which can only be Delver, not Gifts.