Pitch Dredge (formerly "Manaless Dredge 2014")

[vaughnbros]

I didnt realize not participating in a circle jerk was trolling.  I simply disagreed.  Apparently that is also disrepecting innovation and accomplishment.  Please stop putting words in my mouth.  Its dramatic and unecessary.  I am done here.  

There is a difference between giving constructive criticism and just destructive criticism (aka trolling).  You have added nothing positive. Nothing to build on.  All you've said is "Your deck looks bad". Why?  You can't even give an answer other than its different than what you've seen previously.  Just crawl back under your bridge though clearly you are just a troll.

[ajfirecracker]

I went 8-0 in games in tonight's DE
I played the same 75 I've discussed before
(the 75 in my article minus Mana Crypt + another Urborg)

Some of the interesting scenarios:

Match 2 Game 2:
Opponent has Lotus Petal and 2 dual lands
I know he's on combo
I'm pretty sure he's running Chain of Vapor but I haven't seen any
I Therapy him naming Chain of Vapor (to protect Dark Depths combo)
He has Grim Tutor, Mana Crypt
He plays his mana crypt and Grim Tutors for Ancestral, plays Ancestral and Preordain, tapping out of blue mana
I make a Marit Lage and kill him

Match 3 Game 1:
He has Underground Sea, Mox Jet
I therapy him (naming Force of Will) seeing Merchant Scroll, Gush, JaceTMS, YawgWill, and 2 land
His graveyard is very small, like 1 fetch 1 cantrip or less
I have a second therapy
I name Merchant Scroll
He does nothing before dying to zombies

Match 3 Game 2:
I have library in hand on the draw
I misstep during his first turn to stop a Sol Ring (!)
I use library (taking an extra turn to get going) to assemble Marit Lage
Opponent concedes, showing a hand of Dig Through Time he couldn't cast and counterspells

Match 4 Game 1:
He has Dack in play, has discarded 2 Gifts Ungiven to Dack.
I Therapy and he forces.
My hand is Force 3xMindbreak, Mental Misstep
I let his Force resolve (!)
He goes Mox->Tinker on his turn, I Force, he concedes in response (would have died to zombies in 2 turns, I think)

Match 4 Game 2:
I've got Library going on the draw and I soon hit a Mindbreak Trap.
He goes:
Turn 1 Mox Jet -> Vamp Tutor
Turn 2 Mox Ruby -> Demonic Tutor
Turn 3 Black Lotus -> Gifts Ungiven
He gets: Tolarian Academy, Ancestral, Snapcaster Mage, Yawgmoth's Will
I give him Snapcaster and Will, binning Academy/Ancestral
Turn 4 he does nothing and I make a 20/20 on his endstep

I think my opponent's draws were weak overall but that's to be expected with a transformational sideboard, and I used counters/Chancellor to undermine several opposing hands.

The deck felt very good for me and I'm still confident in the sideboard plan (although we are seeing less hard hate at the moment and that makes it more attractive to try to fight through it)

(Edited for grammar)

[ajfirecracker]

Went 4-0 in the DE tonight with a slightly spicy list:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
4 Petrified Field
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Mindbreak Trap

Sideboard
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Vampire Hexmage
1 Riftstone Portal

The theory is that Chalice is a way, way better version of Chancellor of the Annex and Vengeful Pharoah is a bad Dread Return substitute (actually it's closer to Bridge from Below) that doesn't take as many slots (although DR into Troll is a thing so I might try that too) and is strong versus "fair" creature decks like Mishra's Workshops.

M1G1
He leads with Bayou-> Sol Ring
I have Force of Will available, allow Vampiric Tutor to resolve
I Therapy (naming Deathrite Shaman), seeing 2x Hexmage, Bojuka
He Ghost Quarters my Bazaar
I simply kill him with Ichorids + Tokens on my Turn 3 (12 from 4 total ichorid hits and 8 from 4 tokens)

M1G2
He Ghost Quarters my Library repeatedly, I get it back repeatedly with Petrified Field while drawing cards, we're both kind of durdling around.
I play Dark Depths and he simply drops Thespian's Stage and kills me
This was a huge, obvious misplay on my part - I saw a bunch of Hexmages and a Bojuka Bog, which means (via Hexmage) Dark Depths and therefore Thespian's Stage and (via Bojuka Bog) Crop Rotation and therefore Thespian's Stage - two big clues that I just didn't pay enough attention to

M1G3
I'm on the play
He makes a turn 1 marit lage via artifact mana + into the north + Thespian's Stage
I repeatedly summon Narcomoebas to chump as I dredge my deck
I kill him with zombie/ichorid/mana crypt beats behind a narcomoeba shield

M2G1
Chalice for zero totally locks him out and I cast a Therapy on T3 that forces the concession
His only discard were Mystical Tutor and Dig Through Time

M2G2
He does a bunch of mana and grafdigger's cage T1 then topdecks a young pyro T2 (which he could have played off Black Lotus and ends up playing via Black Lotus on Turn 2)
I make a T2 chalice set to 1 (I'm thinking UR Delver that's a little spell-heavy, I've only seen Mox Ruby and Black Lotus), he blows a bunch of 1CMC spells into each other just to make tokens
I stabilize against token beats by recurring stinkweed, then kill with Marit Lage
After the match he tells me he was on Mentor/Pyro (which makes me a bit more interested in Chalice@0, but Chalice@1 was definitely the best number in this game)

M3G1
Dredge vs Shops, I build up an army against a couple weenies and overwhelm him
I blind therapy Tangle wire, then a couple turns later get to strip double sword of fire and ice
Narcomoeba air force with Vengeful Pharaoh to stop attacks looks really hard for Shops to stop
This match felt very grindy but I got the kill on Turn 5 (so fairly quickly)

M3G2
He has turn 1 wurmcoil, I have Turn 1 Bazaar which finds a Vengeful Pharaoh in short order
He upgrades his wurmcoil to 8/8 with arcbound ravager (clearing my bridge from below) and vengeful pharaoh kills the 8/8
Bridge from Below /Pharaoh stall out the board and I make a huge army over many, many turns
My opponent had some bad blocks mixed in but also some clever plays like Phyrexian Metamorph on lifelink 3/3 wurm to forestall attacks - I think he was hoping to draw a Forgemaster and Tinker out something great, but I'm not really sure
The final strike that kills him is 20 zombie tokens and 2 Ichorids (dealing 28 while he was on 23)

M4G1
I Force of Will a Turn 1 Lodestone Golem and establish (via Cabal Therapy) my ability to strip his hand turn 2, prompting a concession

M4G2
He plays Karn, Silver Golem for defense, then hard-casts Platinum Angel (which is functionally game over) then takes a few turns to build up an alpha strike that can get through Vengeful Pharaoh unimpeded

M4G3
I Misstep and Trap 2 Cages on his first turn, but he wastes my bazaar and I'm on the slow dredge plan
He takes some hits from mana crypt despite having Karn, silver golem in play (initially I think this was right but eventually he should have killed it to preserve his life total)
I sit back behind Vengeful Pharaoh and Ichorid/bridge loops, building up a huge army while poking over the top with narcomoebas
Narco+Pharaoh proves really hard for Shops again - I would have easily beaten a Grafdigger's cage drawn mid-game

I think at this point I'm down to 40% or worse versus other Dredge decks (because I took out a bunch of good cards against them for cards they don't care about at all), but it feels extremely stable and seems quite strong versus everything else

Edited to add: 6-1 in matches in today's DE's (July 18), 7-1 if you count the bye round I got. The only play that really stuck out to me was an opponent playing Ice (of Fire/Ice fame) to tap down Marit Lage, then blowing a bunch of 1CMC counterspells on his own Ice, which all got countered by my Chalice of the Void set to 1. I let his stuff resolve, let him get a bunch of Young Pyromancer tokens, then tapped Bazaar, found a Mindbreak Trap, and exiled his Ice. My opponent conceded and showed me his hand - a single Force of Will.

[ajfirecracker]

Deck Tech for the Vengeful Pharaoh build is up here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1v-yw0E5oY

[Archae]

I took this list (with a few minor tweaks) to a paper tourney today, and got 2nd place after 5 rounds and cut to top 4. I went 3-0-2 in the 5 rounds (went the distance against Oath in round 4 and an ID at 3-0-1), and beat the semifinal opponent (the same oath player from round 4). Then lost to a fair (unpowered!) list with Deathrites, Priests, and a bunch of LD all mainboard. I took game 1, but variance got the better of me and I mulled a bunch games 2 and 3 and lost to those three cards in both matches. Unless the opponent swings in with Priest, the list was dead on the dredge plan to priest, and coupled with land hate, I couldn't edge out the victory.

From the list above, I went -1 Pharaoh, -1 Mindbreak Trap, -1 Thug, +3 Leyline of the Void in MD, and -1 Urborg, +1 Riftstone in the SB. For the current metagame, I thought LotV would pay dividends and (as this is a slower dredge build than I am used to) I wanted to protect my bridges. In testing, Urborg and Riftstone filled similar roles, and while opponents will nuke the graveyard, I wanted to diversify that split a bit more, making Stage-Depths more potent.

I never wanted for the 3rd Pharaoh, and I think Leyline is a good addition. I was underwhelmed by Library, and I was rarely if ever at 7 cards in hand once the games began. One idea was to put a Life from the Loam somewhere in the 75; I would also like an out to Priest (or Mentor) in Cabal Pit maybe. Would love to hear thoughts on this, and thanks for the list (it's awesome); keep up the good work!

[ajfirecracker]

Awesome! I'm glad it's working for someone besides me.

Threshold is a real drawback. I think if we're looking at Game 1 then the answer is something like Vengeful Pharaoh. If we're looking at Game 2-3 then Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale would be the first thing I would test for that role. (But give Cabal Pit a shot - more tech is always welcome!)

Edited 8/2: I think Pharaoh is defensible, but lacks the raw power of Dread Return. I'm trying out 4x Chalice 3x Dread Return (for super Grave Titan via Golgari Grave-Troll) and I'm liking the look of it thus far.

Edited 8/5: After a lot of thought and deliberation I decided to give the Chancellor build (no Pharaoh) another go and went 8-0 in games in tonight's Daily Event. Additionally, multiple of my opponents were quite upset.

[ajfirecracker]

Went 3-0 in the Daily tonight while recording

The matches are up here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfVuEiduCTU&list=PLwGy3yc_3RDQYie4IU_3VIJearTeHZGQm

[Metman]

Thanks for sharing your brew with us. Nice job on going 3-0. Couple questions: First, I noticed you didn't use Mindbreak Trap at all in the three matches. Was that an anomaly? If you rarely fire it off, would a couple of them be better served as something like Gitaxian Probe? Second, how have you liked the change to the Chancellors? I'm guessing it's matchup dependent. In a field of Mentors and Pyromancers, I would anticipate that the Chancellors are better than Pharaoh. Is Pharaoh for the Shops matchup? Leyline for Dredge? Finally, I'm playing in a league where my opponents see my submitted decklist a week ahead of time. I'm curious if you would run your Dredge lists with the transformation board in an environment such as mine? Does it matter if your opponent knows what may be coming? If you would run the transformational board, how would you approach games two and/or three?

Thanks again. And keep the videos coming. I really like see your games play out with your commentary.

[ajfirecracker]

Thanks for the kind words!

There are definitely differences of opinion around Mindbreak Trap. Lance Ballester, for example, prefers Gitaxian Probe and has performed well with it, such as this finish: http://www.blackmagicgaming.com/dr-edges-lab-report/

I prefer Mindbreak. When you "hit" with Gitaxian Probe the payoff is minimal, when you "hit" with Mindbreak Trap the payoff is often huge. I think that makes it worth getting value less frequently. The fact that my opponents basically did nothing in every single sideboard game definitely reduced the apparent value of the card.

The Chancellors are something I was on before Pharaoh, and I don't think they compete for the same slot. Pharaoh is definitely something I wanted to run for the Workshops matchup, although they can also play a role against Containment Priest (you don't *have* to dredge outside of combat if you don't want to). I'm not on Leyline currently but it's very defensible and hits a number of key pieces of the format: Dredge, Delve spells, Crucible of Worlds, Yawgmoth's Will, and more.

My view of the Vengeful Pharaoh / Dread Return / Chancellor of the Annex / Chalice of the Void slots is like this: Chalice of the Void is typically a little stronger than Chancellor from the opening hand, despite synergizing less well with Library of Alexandria. Therefore I want to run Chalice, cutting Chancellors. Once I do that, I have no dedicated targets to reanimate and I cut Dread Return for what I think is the next strongest graveyard effect, Vengeful Pharaoh. After playing with this configuration, I felt like I was dropping too many Game 1s to not having a graveyard effect to close the game out, and switched back to Dread Return / Chancellor. The Chalice/Pharaoh build has slightly more meat in game 2/3 because you have a possibly-live Pharaoh instead of a totally-dead Dread Return (so you can sideboard deeper out of the weak cards like Golgari Thug, if you want) - but in those games the Pharaoh drawback is more pronounced because your "Plan A" is no longer to dredge. I think if you cut Pharaoh during sideboarding the configuration is more promising - I might go back and try that.

With decklists published in advance I would lean towards the anti-hate plan. If you can sideboard perfectly every time, you can always bring in only the relevant anti-hate and never get caught with dead anti-hate (such as Ingot Chewer against creature/enchantments). You also power up cards like Pithing Needle considerably, as a plan of 4x Tormod's Crypt loses to a single Needle.

[jimmycolorado]

I'll second the "more videos, please" suggestion haha. I'm on the Brophy list atm, and enjoy the strong matchup it has against Shops. I have most of the cards to give your pitch Dredge configuration a whirl, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around some of the keeps (in my defense, Dredge players don't often play LoA or counter spells that often heh).

So yeah, more videos of games/matches would be nice!

[ajfirecracker]

Some more video content from today's Power 9 tournament is up. I linked it over the in the results discussion thread at http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=48149.0

Edit: I've added commentary to Round 2/3, which dropped it due to some sort of audio bug.

Also, Nukular got a T16 with the deck as well - congrats to him!

[jimmycolorado]

The videos are great, even with the mic situation in round 2 and 3 (maybe a possibility for a "commentary track" in the future? haha).

I'll say these games were a lot more interactive and informative than the previous DE you posted, as the calibre of opponents was much higher in this event.

Do you stream at all, or have thought about it? I was very happy that at least five players streamed the event live on twitch, but more is always better!

Edit: Round 3 was a savage beating.

[ajfirecracker]

4-0 tonight with the same 75 as the article (minus 1 Mana Crypt plus 1 Urborg in the sideboard)

I saw a lot fewer Monastery Mentor, it seems like the meta-game is becoming better tuned and Mentor might go back to being a bit player (as it was 6 months ago)

[vaughnbros]

4-0 tonight with the same 75 as the article (minus 1 Mana Crypt plus 1 Urborg in the sideboard)

I saw a lot fewer Monastery Mentor, it seems like the meta-game is becoming better tuned and Mentor might go back to being a bit player (as it was 6 months ago)

I think the deck is fine against mentor.  Your combo is uncounterable and that's usually enough.  You can play a few waste/strip over pet field if you are afraid of Karakas.

[matori]

4-0 in first daily on Friday with Adams list except I added Dragonlord Kolaghan instead of 1 Golgari Thug maindeck. It really puts opponent on fast clock and gives you edge in some matchups. It can be pitched for Ichorid as well.

[ajfirecracker]

Congrats! Nice work!

[ajfirecracker]

I cashed today's Daily Event while recording.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTDAgWmuSWM&list=PLwGy3yc_3RDQYie4IU_3VIJearTeHZGQm&index=8

I've cashed the last 5 or so in a row (that I've played in) including a couple of 4-0s. My first match today I beat an incredibly stacked deck with maindeck Containment Priest, Path to Exile, 7 Waste effects, multiple Karakas, and sideboard more Priest, RIP, and Swords to Plowshares. Deck is ridiculous.

[ajfirecracker]

Congrats to matori (as mentioned above) tataku, karakusk, and desolutionist on their recent Pitch Dredge finishes!

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/vintage-pitch-dredge#online

I'm thrilled to see a broader circle of people playing the deck and finding success

[desolutionist]

Thanks. There would be more honestly but I've been taking a little break from playing.  It's a great deck.

[matori]

Thanks. There would be more honestly but I've been taking a little break from playing.  It's a great deck.

Thx.
Same here. As soon as I manage to get back I'll pilot it again.

[Islandswamp]

Congrats to matori (as mentioned above) tataku, karakusk, and desolutionist on their recent Pitch Dredge finishes!

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/vintage-pitch-dredge#online

I'm thrilled to see a broader circle of people playing the deck and finding success

I want to try it, but I'm short a bunch of cards. So I'm sticking to the normal dredge list for the time being. I like the idea of the transformational board though.

[AnvilOfCrom]

Has anyone had problems with the transformational sideboard so far? For example when i'm playing against dredge and i see counterspells, library etc. first game, i know he's on the transform plan and board no GY hate. For a possible 3rd game it could be tricky though

[Khahan]

edited out irrelevant comment on discussion that is 1 year old, not a day or two old.  dates are hard.

[vaughnbros]

Has anyone had problems with the transformational sideboard so far? For example when i'm playing against dredge and i see counterspells, library etc. first game, i know he's on the transform plan and board no GY hate. For a possible 3rd game it could be tricky though

This seems like a very high risk move by yourself.  Your opponent still has over a 40% chance of just have bazaar in their opener, and blowing you out.  Not to mention there are going to be games where the transformation is still strong even compared to your normal plan.

[ajfirecracker]

I typically keep in some level of graveyard plan against BUG Fish (varies), Workshops, Storm, Belcher, Merfolk, Wx Hatebears, Mentor (varies), Dredge, and Gush Combo (varies). I typically take out as much of the graveyard plan as possible against Oath, Standstill, Young Pyromancer, Tezzerator (varies) and Grixis Control. As a general rule, the decks against which I go all-in on the Marit Lage plan cannot reliably answer it. The decks that I keep lots of graveyard interaction against tend to be racing-focused and lighter on hate. Really good matchups like Grixis Pyromancer I will tend to take out the graveyard plan to avoid my opponent having outs.

[vaughnbros]

I usually cut Serum Powders, disruption that is poor in the MU, excess dredgers, and then graveyard win cons in that order.  Rarely do I cut all my dread returns and I always have plenty of ways of gaining incremental advantage from it being accessible.  Unless you have a main deck that is already strong against the dredge plan, I can't see not boarding in the maximum amount of hate being correct.

[Islandswamp]

I just built the Pitch Dredge deck and I won my first two matches, but I felt like I played the deck poorly to be honest. I remembered a little bit of what I read about how to sideboard with the deck, but I think I need a refresher course on that.

It definitely feels like there's a lot of potential and people have obviously had great results with the deck, but it is so unlike anything I've ever played before that I am having trouble learning the deck.

With this pitch dredge and even with normal dredge I feel like I'm making mistakes with when to dredge or when to draw cards. At first I just always went nuts with Bazaar and Dredged as much as possible, but that often left me with an empty hand and I couldn't ever actually cast a spell from my hand, even when doing so would have been enormously beneficial to me. Do you guys have any tips on this regard for the various Dredge builds?

Lately I've been doing things like trying to cast a Cabal Therapy from my hand then using the flash back to get more value out of it. That's the one way I've found to play around a Ravenous Trap and sometimes slow-rolling can make them decide to not use a tormod's crypt for a while. It's all very situational but sometimes it feels like the right play.

I want to say thanks to all the people who have worked on these decks, I think they're really cool and I'm glad they've been developed into a tournament-winning archetype. I wrote about Dredge in my article this week and one of the main points I talked about in the end of that article was that Dredge is a powerful deck that deserves more respect. I learned that playing the deck isn't as easy as it seems.

[vaughnbros]

I'm working on a new article/primer right now should hopefully be up later today with as always a playing the game section.

AJ did a nice video primer recently with how to play a number of these cards if you haven't checked it out yet: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=48279.0

I have a couple of older Primers, one on standard dredge (although applicable to a lot of situations), http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44964.0, and a less well written one on a transformation board, http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45541.0.

[desolutionist]

I usually side out cards I can't cast under graveyard lockdown: Troll, Chancellor, Dragon, Dread Return, 2 Ichorids

Leave in Powder and Bridge

[ajfirecracker]

I got Top 8 in the Power 9 Challenge tonight while streaming - I'm exhilarated but emotionally drained. More detail to come, including cutting some of the stream into Youtube videos.