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Author Topic: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage  (Read 30928 times)
Norm4eva
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« Reply #120 on: October 09, 2014, 01:10:56 pm »

I find that claim that the RP sold more product to be incredibly dubious, unless by that you mean the putative discussion went something like this:

    Some Player: "I want to buy good Magic cards!!"
    WotC: "...k?"
    Some Player: "WOAH, these Moxen are expensive!"
    WotC: "...indeed."
    Some Player: "Well you guys just printed fetchlands again, can these over here maybe get repr -- "
    WotC: "NO."
    Some Player: "........well I guess I'll buy more cards to try and make up for the difference in quality with quantity...??..."
    WotC: "The system works!! Quickly Mabel -- make an appointment to have my eyes replaced with DOLLAR SIGNS!"

At any rate, forgetting the obvtroll threat to jump on a class-action lawsuit, I stand by my previous assertion. They'll just keep printing Thalias, Treasure Cruises, Dredge.decs, and so on, until a Modern player doesn't have to GAF about whether or not they're fully powered.

And at *that* point, that's when Vintage should truly worry about format growth, because unless Modern turns into Legacy 2.0 (and is summarily grown to Monster Size and then kicked to the proverbial curb), players will have the logical fork of choosing two formats for their cards in which their deck does well, but one of them has more direct support, and it'll probably be a fairly easy choice for those players.
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« Reply #121 on: October 09, 2014, 02:46:48 pm »

Quote
Think Power is crazy expensive now?

I view the higher prices of power 9 to be a good thing for vintage tournament attendance.   As a community, we want the price of membership to increase, not decrease.  If the price increases, it will get in the hands of the most devoted players.  These are the people that travel to events and love the game.  I don't think the power should ever be reprinted in paper form, under any circumstance.  

Every year power rises in price, every year Vintage Worlds gets more players at it.  

Price increases can be a good thing.  

Completely disagree. I just finished getting my power for worlds this year. I'd be ecstatic if the reserved list was broken. I cannot count the number of people who are unable to play Vintage due to price issues. I count myself lucky enough to be able to afford it, not everybody is. If it wasn't for the kindness and help I received from the NE community, I probably wouldn't have my power for worlds. I was also lucky enough to pick up some of them before the price jumps earlier this year.

No, as a community I don't believe the format needs to become more and more inaccessible. I am not against wanting devoted players, but this will not stop being the case if paper power was printed. Are people devoted to the format going to magically disappear if power gets printed?

I wonder how many people would be devoted enough to the format when the price of an unlimited Black Lotus is something like $10,000? $20,000? $50,000? If it weren't for allowing proxies in events, Vintage would probably not get new players at all. I wonder how devoted players would be when no new blood ever enters the format?

Frankly, I find your position ridiculous. It's one thing to support the reserved list, it's entirely another thing to hope for the price of power to constantly increase and price more and more people out of the format. That actively contributes to the strangulation of the format, not it's growth, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 02:58:25 pm by HrishiQQ » Logged

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« Reply #122 on: October 09, 2014, 03:01:07 pm »

Quote
Completely disagree. I just finished getting my power for worlds this year. I'd be ecstatic if the reserved list was broken. I cannot count the number of people who are unable to play Vintage due to price issues. I count myself lucky enough to be able to afford it, not everybody is.

That's great, and now you are going to play with those cards at vintage worlds.  Welcome to the club.  We don't discriminate against anyone.  Anyone who wants to join club can, and you can sell out and leave at any time.  

If you consider yourself lucky, and others unfortunate, that is your peragitive and opinion.  And you are more than entitled to it.  I really don't care either way.  There are always the haves and the haves not.  It was the same 20 years ago when I started playing magic.  Lots of people wanted the same cards, and there were only so many to go around.  In my opinion, these cards have found their way to the best players and lovers of the game.  That's all I care about.  I don't want the entire world playing Magic, I don't want 2000 people Vintage Worlds tournaments.  You'll be very happy to see all the security present at the tournament site when you are there, and how much of a logistical nightmare it would be if the tournament was 3 times the size.  

I want vintage to keep growing at the steady pace it is.  

Which again, is a point no one seems to be agrueing against.  Since the price of power has increased, the popularity of vintage has increased.  I expect record turnout at Vintage Worlds this year, and next year, and the year after that.  

Quote
You do understand how ridiculous that sounds, right? Vintage is the "old boys club" after all, why not cement that feeling with even HIGHER prices for Power!

The economics behind luxury goods are much different than normal goods/necessities.  They are a completly different animal.  

Vintage magic cards are a textbook example of a luxury good.  
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 03:05:56 pm by gkraigher » Logged
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« Reply #123 on: October 09, 2014, 03:09:17 pm »

Which again, is a point no one seems to be agrueing against.  Since the price of power has increased, the popularity of vintage has increased.  I expect record turnout at Vintage Worlds this year, and next year, and the year after that.

I do not disagree that the popularity of vintage has increased, nor do I disagree with the fact that worlds might get a record turnout this year. I would argue that there are many reasons for this, and the price of power has hardly anything to do with the expected attendance this year.

You're right though, 2000 person events would be a nightmare. However, I'm not talking about vintage prices are they are today. I fear as prices get higher and higher, steady growth will no longer be sustainable. If power never gets printed ever again it is very likely that vintage will lean more and more on proxy events to run. After all, there are only a couple sanctioned vintage events all year, I wonder what attendance would be like if proxy events did not exist?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 03:13:30 pm by HrishiQQ » Logged

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« Reply #124 on: October 09, 2014, 03:32:54 pm »

 Since the price of power has increased, the popularity of vintage has increased.

Correlation does not equal causation.
Its more likely that the release of vintage masters on MTGO is the cause of the increase in interest and price. There is no way to convert the all the MTGO vintage interest into paper with the reserve list. There aren't enough playsets available.

Anyone know that the total number of playsets of power released on MTGO are?
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« Reply #125 on: October 09, 2014, 03:34:23 pm »

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Vintage is certainly more popular now than it has been in a while, but this is not necessarily due to the increase in the price of power.
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« Reply #126 on: October 09, 2014, 06:44:05 pm »

You certainly don't want to point at the continued 20%+ annual growth in the player base that might have an impact on the Vintage scene, nor the advent of Vintage Masters that had, you guessed it, fresh printings of Power and restricted list staples.

It's even more interesting to put the growth due to the increased prices and not vice versa, increased prices due to an overall growth of the player base as a whole added to a continued maturation of the market.

Also, no consideration of the negative effects of high prices on the growth of Vintage?  Record turnouts but growth still below the overall growth of the game?  But I guess you are fine with that as you want to keep the format exclusive.  I get it.  Darn kids certainly do a number on lawns after all.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #127 on: October 09, 2014, 06:52:44 pm »

Quote

Vintage is certainly more popular now than it has been in a while, but this is not necessarily due to the increase in the price of power.

Quote
Correlation does not equal causation.

you guys are right, my logic is flawed.  

But if more people show up this year than last to vintage worlds, then I am right that the cards are getting into the hands of the gamers we want these cards to be in.  That the high price of the cards is a benefit to the vintage community. 

« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 06:56:04 pm by gkraigher » Logged
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« Reply #128 on: October 09, 2014, 08:12:46 pm »

So you only want players with lots of disposable income to play magic with you? And that these wealthy players are good for the vintage community where the unwashed masses wouldn't be?
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« Reply #129 on: October 09, 2014, 09:18:53 pm »

a system where players who could prove ownership of actual physical reserve list cards could get MTGO versions for free would be nice....never gonna happen but it's pretty much what's keeping me from buying in right now.  Hard to justify spending a couple thousand dollars on replicas of cards I already own.
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« Reply #130 on: October 09, 2014, 10:59:10 pm »

and vice versa...

If you own the MTGO pixel version, I think that you should be able to get access to official proxies from WOTC with your DCI number stamped/printed on it (or your MODO ID, a barcode or whatever unique printed on it). Having an expiry date or tourney name on the proxy could be an option as well to make the proxy short-term-use-only.

When playing in a paper proxy tourneys, deck-checks could just consist in cross-referencing that your paper decklists is exactly matching your current MODO collection. Computer & internet is everywhere nowadays: Players could be asked to present a printed barcode generated from their MODO account, then the TO would just need to scan it when registering you in the tourney, etc... that's the easy part.

To avoid people from buying on MODO on Fridays and immediately flipping back their collection on Mondays (just to have access to paper proxies during week-ends), transaction fees, time limit on resale, etc... could be setup in the MODO market place. I don't think this is a real concern anyways, the system could be easily setup to detect such abuse.

So it's not hard to setup. The main dilemma resides in whether or not WOTC is smart enough to see that bridging MODO collection & paper collection would be the ultimate grail for The Game and Vintage. I'ld be for making that bridge temporary and not free, it would basically be like a membership. Expiry date & cost (even if it is $0.10 per proxy + postage) are important to keep the market place, players & collectors alive, commited, honest and in phase with their hobby in both the paper & the digital worlds.

Last, doing nothing with paper Vintage or the infamous "Reserve List" will only result in massive counterfeiting or robbery dramas because there is an absurd amount of easy money to be made.

PS: If needed, make the MODO proxies half ugly. The barcode idea is best because it is ugly and because it is infinite programmable data.
PS2: When I was a kid, I thought that the patterns on the card frames & backgrounds had a meaning of some sort. This is unfortunately less true with the new frames...
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 03:45:46 am by tribet » Logged
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« Reply #131 on: October 10, 2014, 04:04:05 am »

Surely increased popularity = increased demand = increased prices, not increased prices = increased demand = increased popularity...
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« Reply #132 on: October 10, 2014, 04:39:02 am »

Tribet, for some reason your suggestion about an expiry date reminded me of the opening scenes from every Inspector Gadget cartoon...

"This proxy will self-destruct in 5 seconds..."
*Toss my deck into the garbage can where the chief is hiding.*
*BOOM!*
*cue angry chief sporting Doc Brown hair and covered in soot*

Really though, I see two problems with it.  First, it means that WotC would have to officially condone proxies, which is something they will never do.  Also, printing, cutting, and organizing specific cards would be a logistical nightmare.  Even set redemption costs $25 USD and takes weeks.  Keep in mind that this is for current sets that they keep in a warehouse.

I think the best thing they can do in this regard is to release commemorative Vintage Championship Event Decks, much like they used to do with PT decks 10ish years ago.  The cards themselves would need to have square or clipped corners and a gold border on the back, making them illegal for sanctioned play.  They could even use the M15 card frame and VMA art where applicable in order to prevent them from being turned into counterfeits.  Not only does this give proxy players a more attractive option than defaced basic lands, but it also actively promotes the format.  They're basically saying "Look at these awesome Vintage decks you guys can play with."  They can be used by players wanting these cards for EDH or a powered cube as a better alternative to IE/CE.  It does all of this while sidestepping the proxy issue, since their stated purpose is to be a collectable, and it solves the logistical issue by using a standardized print run.
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tribet
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« Reply #133 on: October 10, 2014, 05:35:12 am »

Also, printing, cutting, and organizing specific cards would be a logistical nightmare.  Even set redemption costs $25 USD and takes weeks.  Keep in mind that this is for current sets that they keep in a warehouse.

MODO is by definition already online, I fail to see how complicated it is to export (sorry copy/paste) your online collection into the queue for WOTC's printing machine. Anybody can print a full deck in 10 secondes here (and we are lucky that not many of us have access to the right quality papers, inks or printers).

Pasting a barcode onto a pic is the easiest thing on earth. Even if you print zillion of random cards with random barcodes, all that WOTC needs is a barcode reader/recorder at the end of their conveyor belt, just before your cards get loaded into your envelop.

Yes that's all they need: the proxies are now linked to your MODO account and DCI number. And, as soon as you sell your MODO digital card, the link to the barcode on your proxy doesn't get recognised no more when scanned by your TO.

Honestly, printing cards is one big aspect of their business. The new hologram is a waste of time, it doesn't actually protect or solve anything. They just bought themselves like 3 years on the counterfeiters. A waste of time & money.

I'm really having fun playing with this barcode idea. You can't counterfeit or steal something that is linked at all times to WOTC computers:
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 06:52:02 am by tribet » Logged
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« Reply #134 on: October 10, 2014, 05:46:38 am »

And having barcode on cards could allow other fun tricks when scanned with your new Iphone app:
- give you the Oracle text
- give you translation in each language
- give you latest price of the non-proxy version
- ...

I'm a genius!
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« Reply #135 on: October 10, 2014, 07:03:13 am »

Give you're google glass equipped opponents access to your deck list as you shuffle?
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« Reply #136 on: October 10, 2014, 07:47:18 am »

A pro tour invite? Why would I want to win Vintage worlds to get the right to go pay standard? Or attack with Wind Drake in draft?
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« Reply #137 on: October 10, 2014, 09:30:20 am »

A pro tour invite? Why would I want to win Vintage worlds to get the right to go pay standard? Or attack with Wind Drake in draft?

Are you Vintage player or a Magic player? Some part of the community only plays Vintage and for them you are probably right, they would not be interested in winning a pro tour invite. But I would suspect there are many players who enjoy many of the formats of Magic: The Gathering. If the question is how to drive interest in the format, I would think that a pro tour invite would increase interest in the format from a section of the player base. Though once again that raises the issues mentioned above, greater interest would further drive up cost of the playable cards on the reserved list.
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« Reply #138 on: October 10, 2014, 07:26:34 pm »

I don't play standard or draft, an invite to the pro tour is a waste since I'd likely be up against people who play those formats 6-50 times a week. I don't think a pro tour birth would help expand vintage, it's not a pro tour or a grand prix format. Now if the champion got a seat at a 8-16 person invitational style wacky format event, that might drum up interest.
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« Reply #139 on: October 10, 2014, 08:12:58 pm »

A pro tour invite? Why would I want to win Vintage worlds to get the right to go pay standard? Or attack with Wind Drake in draft?

Are you Vintage player or a Magic player? Some part of the community only plays Vintage and for them you are probably right, they would not be interested in winning a pro tour invite.

I think of myself as an Eternal player, but I'd take a PT invite if only for the free vacation.
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« Reply #140 on: October 11, 2014, 07:51:28 pm »

So, today I saw this:
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/news-10112014-fnm-format-and-regional-ptq-updates/

They're allowing almost any format to be FNM, except Vintage... not that it would mean much if we could organize Vintage FNMs, but I think that says a lot about this topic.
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« Reply #141 on: October 11, 2014, 08:11:08 pm »

Invent your own format?
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« Reply #142 on: October 11, 2014, 08:42:25 pm »

I'm amused how I don't know what half those formats even are. Yet vintage isn't on that list.
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« Reply #143 on: October 11, 2014, 08:43:05 pm »

Yeah, you probably can fit any format into this new FNM. The fact that Vintage is not cited, though, should by itself end this topic. Wink

ps: the good thing though is that now people can actually organize Old School 93/94 FNMs hehe
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« Reply #144 on: October 11, 2014, 09:54:02 pm »

While I am hesitant to give WoTC the benefit of the doubt on this, I suspect Vintage was excluded because Vintage, at least in North America, has become nearly synonymous with proxies. Therefore WoTC has difficulty promoting it as part of FNM. But I agree that the exclusion of Vintage says a lot.
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« Reply #145 on: October 11, 2014, 10:56:58 pm »

While I am hesitant to give WoTC the benefit of the doubt on this, I suspect Vintage was excluded because Vintage, at least in North America, has become nearly synonymous with proxies. Therefore WoTC has difficulty promoting it as part of FNM. But I agree that the exclusion of Vintage says a lot.

The thing is, I find it hard to believe that some of the formats listed there are going to even be played at an FNM. The option of vintage (even if it will never happen) would be nice. I'm sure it was specifically excluded.
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« Reply #146 on: October 11, 2014, 11:26:38 pm »

Well I let Aaron Forsythe know how I feel about this via twitter. Doubt I will get a response, but might as well voice my opinion.

I know we have some WotC lurkers here as well.

Just FYI since customer service tends to be an issue every once in a while.  When one of the head honchos asks how to support Vintage and you specifically leave it out of the possible FNM formats, it's basically spitting in our eye.

Some of these formats are ridiculous.  It looks like they just went throuvht the list of every possible format and chopped out Vintage.

Should we feel supported when we are lumped in with Chaos Magic in the rejected hinterlands?
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« Reply #147 on: October 12, 2014, 02:00:28 am »

So, today I saw this:
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/news-10112014-fnm-format-and-regional-ptq-updates/

They're allowing almost any format to be FNM, except Vintage... not that it would mean much if we could organize Vintage FNMs, but I think that says a lot about this topic.

Clearly vintage is under the invent your own format category.
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« Reply #148 on: October 12, 2014, 09:14:11 am »

Saw this when they announced it last night and really found it painful. I mean, if you've gone to the bother of remembering Emperor and Back Draft and God knows what else, leaving off the word Vintage is a wilful act. It would have hurt them none and allowed perhaps somewhere on the planet a sanctioned 8-man vintage FNM to fire, causing great happiness to all concerned. And, from a format PR point of view, to have Vintage being played in the odd store here and there, would have exposed it to others - something we've seen from the response to the Vintage Super League playersnof younger formats can totally dig.

To leave off Vintage from this list was basically harder than to put it on. And that's really a big poke in the eye from Wizards. Cheers!

Still, the hope of sanctioned 93-94 old school mtg does actually make me pretty excited....bring it on!
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« Reply #149 on: October 12, 2014, 11:31:03 am »

That's disheartening. I saw a summary of the announcement, but it said all formats, so I assumed Vintage was one Sad. Someone please send an email to Wizards to ask about it.
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