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Author Topic: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage  (Read 26683 times)
Smmenen
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« on: September 02, 2014, 12:05:45 am »

https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/506628305454256129

He originally asked:

"@mtgaaron: What underplayed Magic format would you like to see more focus/events for, either in paper or online?"

Then:

"@mtgaaron: Vintage is a popular answer. Is that desire mostly for more online stuff? Or to make high-profile stuff for viewing? Hard to grow paper."

See the responses
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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2014, 03:04:35 am »

I'd just love it when Vintage would be once again part of something like the Player Championship that they are holding instead of the Worlds nowadays (which is a lot like the Invitational in former times). I cannot see a possible Grand Prix or Pro Tour showing, as there is just not enough Power for people to pick up - but let's be honest, most pros have good connections in the community and they could borrow Power for such a special event for sure if they don't want to buy it.

In addition to that, they could push MTGO Vintage more. Maybe something like this Championship that they did every 2-3 months? It wouldn't cost them anything, and could bring more attention to our beloved format.

I don't like the proxie idea to be honest... that jsut doesn't feel like real cards to me, I always hated those "mark the box with your flipcard" stuff. If you're playing paper, nothing ever beats the real experience.
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2014, 10:37:32 am »

Is there a way to get in touch with him for those who don't use Twitter?
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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2014, 04:36:08 pm »

Giving attention to the format is excellent, but there are things they can do to improve the format with printings as well.

Can someone please tell Aaron to stop printing hate bears? There are lots of creative strategies you don't see in Standard anymore, and the stupid creatures with abilities tacked on are just a slap in the face. More hatebear printings would fail to add anything to the format. Tell him to be more creative with build-around cards, and push them. Print the creative global enchantments we expected from Theros.

Also, we need a W/B ancient Grudge for Creatures. Just print it in a Commander Product and Ban it in Legacy or something.  Or a two-mana sorcery with the Creature Clause from Balance(Not Lands and hand, however). The format would be shaked up, and would provide insurance for future pushed creatures.

Edit: Or online Ptq's.
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« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2014, 08:43:23 am »

How about reprinting Black Lotus / Moxen / etc in a new set (with the new MODO art), let them sit in Standard for maybe a few weeks and then do a quick emergency banning?

Would open up the format for alot of people who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford the cards.
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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2014, 08:53:21 am »

How about reprinting Black Lotus / Moxen / etc in a new set (with the new MODO art), let them sit in Standard for maybe a few weeks and then do a quick emergency banning?

Would open up the format for alot of people who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford the cards.

Reserved list wants to talk to you.
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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2014, 09:15:23 am »

I think it would be really cool if they printed time stamped Proxies for Vintage. They could be extremely rare and would have an expiration date on them so that they could be used for a certain time period in sanctioned Vintage and then would just be a proxy for unsanctioned events. I'm not sure how this would work logistically, but it seems worth considering at the very least.
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« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2014, 09:59:50 am »

To support Vintage, it's absolutely fundamental that there be enough cards for everyone who wants to play. I don't care if that means Vintage Arsenal for $10k. Cost is one thing, there not being enough cards to support the existing player base is another. The reserve list has to be worked around or abolished. That probably means snow/arcane power or online-only Vintage Event Decks. Even silly things like Hurkyl's Recall are prohibitive there.

A lot of people seem to think that paying lots of money makes power fall out of the sky. It doesn't. You bought your power from someone who no longer has it. As people leave the format but keep (or worse GRADE) their cards, the supply will only dwindle further and further.
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« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2014, 10:39:54 am »

I think WotC just needs to bite the bullet and abolish the reserved list.  I understand that they're concerned about the potential legal ramifications (and I realize that they may even be hamstrung on this point by Hasbro), but it's a problem that's only going to get worse as it's allowed to continue.  The impact it has on the game will only increase as cards wear out and the potential losses by potential legal claimants will only increase as well (increasing their incentives to sue).  Better to just take care of it now.
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« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2014, 10:44:18 am »

I think WotC just needs to bite the bullet and abolish the reserved list.  I understand that they're concerned about the potential legal ramifications (and I realize that they may even be hamstrung on this point by Hasbro), but it's a problem that's only going to get worse as it's allowed to continue.  The impact it has on the game will only increase as cards wear out and the potential losses by potential legal claimants will only increase as well (increasing their incentives to sue).  Better to just take care of it now.

There would be so many lawsuits I don't think it's realistic.
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« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2014, 04:48:07 pm »

I think WotC just needs to bite the bullet and abolish the reserved list.  I understand that they're concerned about the potential legal ramifications (and I realize that they may even be hamstrung on this point by Hasbro), but it's a problem that's only going to get worse as it's allowed to continue.  The impact it has on the game will only increase as cards wear out and the potential losses by potential legal claimants will only increase as well (increasing their incentives to sue).  Better to just take care of it now.
There would be so many lawsuits I don't think it's realistic.
Entirely their own fault from closing the foil loophole.
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« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2014, 04:50:10 pm »

I think WotC just needs to bite the bullet and abolish the reserved list.  I understand that they're concerned about the potential legal ramifications (and I realize that they may even be hamstrung on this point by Hasbro), but it's a problem that's only going to get worse as it's allowed to continue.  The impact it has on the game will only increase as cards wear out and the potential losses by potential legal claimants will only increase as well (increasing their incentives to sue).  Better to just take care of it now.
There would be so many lawsuits I don't think it's realistic.
Entirely their own fault from closing the foil loophole.

Sure, it's their fault. Doesn't mean it's going to change.
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« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2014, 05:33:20 pm »

Oh good another

"......rabble rabble WotC guy wants to fix things, I know how bout burn the RP; rabble rabble......"

thread.

You would think that after the same discussion plays out so many times across different corners of the Internet that eventually either Wizards or the community would budge on their position as it stands today. Unfortunately this really does seem to be a case of unstoppable forces meeting immovable objects; I don't think there is another answer outside of reprinting staple cards to get people interested in the format and less frightened of the entry fees, but all that stuff's on lockdown.

The only other thing is to hope that Wizards can print stuff in the Abrupt Decay/Counterbalance pocket for the next several years to the point where people can show up with ModernLegal.dec and perform *as well as* someone playing fully powered Tier 1 Vintage. I'm not talking about someone taking a mono-Blue precon and shoving JtMS and Force of Will in there and calling it awesome sauce; I mean like someone shows up with a Junk list that doesn't have a single card in it that's older than Mesmeric Fiend, and yet consistently places in a competitive environment. It doesn't *have to be* power creep, but it does have to be built for the format, and given their trend to slip stuff in via Commander products and all that other stuff, it's a hit-and-miss game when it comes to just what ends up actually doing well. For my part I expected a lot more Unexpectedly Absents and a lot less True-Name Nemesiseses; I did not call it in the air on that one, and I have brought dishonor to my family.

I mean there isn't really a magic third option, right; either the new cards become easier to play in Vintage, or the old cards become easier to play (meaning 'acquire' and subsequently sleeve up) in Vintage. Or, you know, everyone packs up and moves over to like Type 4 or Planechase or something. vOv
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« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2014, 05:49:56 pm »

That is a great point, Norm.

At my local game store, Mr Nice Guy's, they have monthly Vintage and Legacy tournaments. One of the players has consistently performed well in these events with his homebrew Modern-legal BW deck. In fact, he has performed so well in the Legacy events with his Modern deck that he now has three Scrublands that he's won in his otherwise-modern deck.

At the Vintage event before last, he took Modern-With-Three-Scrublands deck to a second-place finish. It was a sanctioned Vintage tournament with a number of fully powered players, including myself.
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« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2014, 06:26:42 pm »

That is a great point, Norm.

At my local game store, Mr Nice Guy's, they have monthly Vintage and Legacy tournaments. One of the players has consistently performed well in these events with his homebrew Modern-legal BW deck. In fact, he has performed so well in the Legacy events with his Modern deck that he now has three Scrublands that he's won in his otherwise-modern deck.

At the Vintage event before last, he took Modern-With-Three-Scrublands deck to a second-place finish. It was a sanctioned Vintage tournament with a number of fully powered players, including myself.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm really curious about this decklist....

On topic, I'm of the opinion that the best way to save Vintage (without considering extenuating circumstances like probable lawsuits, angry neckbeards, etc.) is to ditch the Restricted List and print some money. But we all know the problem with that. I think there is enough unexplored design space that Wizards could explore that would let them put new cards into the format without severely increasing or decreasing the power level of existing decks. I also think that reprinting some legacy staples that aren't on the reserved list would help more people be more willing to explore the format with unpowered decks. Also, maybe let proxy tournaments be sanctioned? They could add a "only reserved-list cards can be proxied in sanctioned play" clause, but that doesn't seem logistically possible.
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« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2014, 07:20:34 pm »

I think in terms of promoting vintage they've sort of painted themselves into a corner with regards to the reserved list. It's always going to be a format with an exceptionally high barrier to entry. What they CAN do is put more time into printing vintage relevant cards, taking a hard look at the B/R list and using those tools to promote fun and balanced archetypes.

As far as the online end of things, they can make the cards accessible and run larger events. Adding some coverage like the VSL would also be great.
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« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2014, 08:05:11 pm »

Off the top of my head, I think online is the only thing that could be feasible due to the list, and this is how I would do it (and likely be branded a heretic in the process)

1)Change MTGO to a subscription service that allows access to all the cards. This would destroy the "secondary market", but would allow anyone to build anything they want. Instead of winning packs, players could win alternate art cards.

2) I've recently started playing Netrunner, and I'm really loving the LCG model. This could be implemented somehow. Allow players to buy blocks of predetermined cards for their collections at a reasonable price, and keep these cards permanently available.

3)Hold vintage tournaments, and allow players to "rent" expensive cards for the duration of that tournament, and the winner/top 4 or whatever get power.
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« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2014, 08:31:13 pm »

At $10,000 a P9, they will do themselves & the game a favour by addressing the counterfeit issue.

Unfortunately, we won't have any shiny anticounterfeit logo for any of cards printed in the past 20 years.

If they can't address that, the reserve list policy will be taken care by the counterfeiters.

Regarding MTGO, they locked themselves by choosing a similar business model (ie collectibility) than paper MTG and opting to create a secundary market. I'm all for a rental or membership system instead. They can always compensate unhappy MTGO owners by distributing foily fancy real cards to be called "MTGO reward foils" (basically the same way they pay, hum... sorry "reward" or "thanks", the judges with juicy sought after foils)
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« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2014, 10:18:20 pm »

Once they printed flip cards, I don't see why CE/IE couldn't become legal. The corner issue is the same idea as alpha having different corners and in the sleeves the back wouldn't be noticed. Its a way to get around the Reserved List while opening up a few thousand extra copies of power.
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« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2014, 09:59:05 am »

There would be so many lawsuits I don't think it's realistic.
Actually they'd probably all get combined into a single class-action, I would imagine.  I still think they need to just rip off the band-aid sooner rather than later.  Potential losses only increase as time goes by.
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« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2014, 01:27:28 pm »

It isn't "rabble rabble." Except for some dredge builds, every deck is better if it has Black Lotus. There are only so many Lotuses no matter how high the price gets. The format cannot expand unless the supply of Lotuses expands. They need to just bite the bullet and reprint the P9 with an MSRP equal to the current market value. That is, the only damage anyone can claim is that the price stopped increasing.
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« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2014, 02:39:48 pm »

Actually they'd probably all get combined into a single class-action, I would imagine.  I still think they need to just rip off the band-aid sooner rather than later.  Potential losses only increase as time goes by.
Don't you think that they just don't want to reprint power and high value cards?
I mean, look at us Vintage players, and tell me that we're the ones buying boosters.

More players playing Vintage will most likely mean less players on Standard/Modern/Draft as players don't have time to play every formats. Less players on those formats equal less sells overall.
Don't expect the argument "Only Legacy/EDH players would play Vintage and they aren't buying boosters anyway" would work on WotC. They'll not take the risk.

They got so few to win by reprinting the reserve list and so much to lose...

It hurts, as I don't plan to rebuy every card i own on MODO, but I think the future for Vintage isn't on paper unfortunately...
(but if i'll keep playing as much paper Vintage as possible, even if it's not sanctionned!)
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« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2014, 04:24:33 pm »

Actually they'd probably all get combined into a single class-action, I would imagine.  I still think they need to just rip off the band-aid sooner rather than later.  Potential losses only increase as time goes by.
Don't you think that they just don't want to reprint power and high value cards?
I mean, look at us Vintage players, and tell me that we're the ones buying boosters.

More players playing Vintage will most likely mean less players on Standard/Modern/Draft as players don't have time to play every formats. Less players on those formats equal less sells overall.
Don't expect the argument "Only Legacy/EDH players would play Vintage and they aren't buying boosters anyway" would work on WotC. They'll not take the risk.

They got so few to win by reprinting the reserve list and so much to lose...

It hurts, as I don't plan to rebuy every card i own on MODO, but I think the future for Vintage isn't on paper unfortunately...
(but if i'll keep playing as much paper Vintage as possible, even if it's not sanctionned!)

If they abolished the reserve list, then they could use power cards and other expensive stables as prices, or they could include them as extremely rare cards in boosters packs. This would likely promote the game fairly well i think Smile

I don't know, Yu-Gi-Oh reprinted all of their original broken cards and not only did the bottom fall out on their prices but no one really plays the older format competitively either from what I know. As such, it's not inherently better for the game - even given that Magic is very different than YGO.
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« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2014, 05:20:17 pm »

Yu-gi-oh is vastly different.

The equivalent to vintage is a truly broken format because the game severely lacks disruptive effects (At least it did last time i looked at yu-gi-oh)

I conceded that it's different. I just don't think it's inherently better to make the move is all. It very well might be, but let's not pretend it's a given.
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« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2014, 09:04:01 pm »

I honestly don't understand that lawsuit claim everybody is talking about. It all sound like a smoke screen to me, that ultimate argument that explains all. SCG only have 1 lotus in stock. ABUgames has 5, etc... Who exactly are the claimants? When was that? Who's been seating on all that Power and ready to jump in court?

If I'm correct the reserve list was last revised in 2002. Black Lotus was like $300 then. Allowing for a reasonable 6% interest/year on his investment, his Lotus should be $600 today. Using a simple supply/demand chart Hasbro could just make sure that Lotuses never drops below that $600 threshold. So on what basis could that person still complain? Supply is limited but the player base exploded over the past 12 years. Will he also complain when Magic terminate one day around 2045?

Do people complain when fetches are getting reprinted and drop from $100 back to $40? Didn't some people speculate, loose money or investments? How's that different?

As long as you always keep the ABU special & museum-like everybody is safe. Protect people from counterfeits, it is clearly the biggest threat to everybody. Make the reprints look different (foils, alternate drawings, new border, hologram stamp...). Trikle them slowly back into the marked via GP, Vintage Champs prices, judge promos so that the prices don't jump like yoyo (although it is clear they don't care about that).

Keep Vintage as an elite & expensive format. Grow it to the point where Power supply can only satisfy 5% of your overall player base. This way you don't undermine Standard, new products sales and the Game's growth. Will Vintage Masters on MODO undermine any other future sets on MODO platform? I think not because it answers a different demand.

The hardcore people will still favour the ABU version. Some will offload their UL to pimp their deck with foily ones. Others still can't complain because the new ones are clearly different than the old-school original ABU ones.

What if Hasbro decide to print a better card than Lotus? Will people take them to court?

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That lawsuit thingy is a smoke screen.
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« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2014, 09:39:46 pm »

Shock Power:

Just tack on two life or the card comes into play tapped.  Wink
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« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2014, 10:35:52 pm »

No I disagree. Wizards needs to have clear targets
- Vintage 2% of players
- Legacy 10%
- Commander 15%
- Modern 20%
- Standard 53%

And then for each format set a limit cost distribution for the standard prints version of each cards (excl foils,...):

Vintage typical cost  distribution could look like:
Cards above $1000 = 1
Cards above $750 to $999 = 2.
Cards above $500 to $749 = 5
Cards above $250 to = 10
Cards above $150 = 30
...

Then you reprint accordingly.

I don't how the whole economics would works but its start by setting clear targets for each format.
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« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2014, 10:42:11 pm »

Aaron Forsythe's question doesn't sense if he doesn't tell us what Wizards is trying to achieve in regards to Vintage.
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« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2014, 02:44:35 am »

If they abolished the reserve list, then they could use power cards and other expensive stables as prices, or they could include them as extremely rare cards in boosters packs. This would likely promote the game fairly well i think Smile
What would be the point to add only a handfull of power cards?
They'll just evaporate onto the hands of collectors in a heartbeat and you'll have the same Vintage scene as before.
Aaron Forsythe's question doesn't sense if he doesn't tell us what Wizards is trying to achieve in regards to Vintage.
I think he may just be asking to see if someone could have a reply they didn't think of. It doesn't cost much to ask anyway.

1/ Reprinting a few cards will not help as the entry cost will still be too high (it was too high years ago already, so even if the price was cut in half today it would still be), discarding the fact that they said they will not do it anyway.

2/ Allowing proxies is a nonsense for them, as they're a business company. Allowing counterfeits (because a proxy is just a bad one, let's be clear) on events you run is not acceptable. it would also potentially hurt the sales as (with a huge shortcut) more Vintage players = less boosters opened.

3/ Allowing IE/CE would fall onto both 1 and 2, sort of.

The only solution for players is a massive reprint. That will not happen on paper, so that leaves us with MODO.
They allowed themselves to do it there because they do not plan to really support the format on MODO anyway. You just have to see the current tournaments they're running and the period of time the set's on sale.
So you've got no reason to play competitively and you lose the friendship/community/IRL feeling of Vintage? It will not bring a lot of people out of Standard, I guess.
That's a safe bet for them there. Vintage players rebuy there stuff completely: win! They sell a new set without much risk for their supported formats: win again.
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« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2014, 09:47:27 am »

I honestly don't understand that lawsuit claim everybody is talking about. It all sound like a smoke screen to me, that ultimate argument that explains all. SCG only have 1 lotus in stock. ABUgames has 5, etc... Who exactly are the claimants? When was that? Who's been seating on all that Power and ready to jump in court?

If I'm correct the reserve list was last revised in 2002. Black Lotus was like $300 then. Allowing for a reasonable 6% interest/year on his investment, his Lotus should be $600 today. Using a simple supply/demand chart Hasbro could just make sure that Lotuses never drops below that $600 threshold. So on what basis could that person still complain? Supply is limited but the player base exploded over the past 12 years. Will he also complain when Magic terminate one day around 2045?

Do people complain when fetches are getting reprinted and drop from $100 back to $40? Didn't some people speculate, loose money or investments? How's that different?

You're missing the point here. Wizards of the Coast has never made any claims about the price of power. They did make a hard commitment that they would not reprint those cards. The price of those cards is irrelevant. When people bought those fetch lands there was no guarantee from Wizards that they would not be reprinting those cards. It was a risk they took when they purchased those cards. If somebody went out and bought a full set of power at market price safe in the knowledge that Wizards has made a commitment to not reprint these cards and flood the market and devalue his investment. If they were to abandon their commitment I don't think seeking some form of restitution would be unreasonable or unfounded.
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