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Author Topic: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage  (Read 26652 times)
AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #90 on: September 24, 2014, 10:24:21 am »

I'm all in favor of accepting proxies, but you're selling the counter-argument very short.  Folks don't say, "I bought in so you should, too."  They're saying that you are more likely to stick with a format if you have invested thousands of dollars into it.  It's like taking advantage of the Sunk Cost fallacy.  Now, you can certainly argue with how much of an effect "buying in" has on the format, but it probably does have some effect and you shouldn't dismiss the idea out of hand.
I didn't dismiss it:
That said, proxies aren't useful for cultivating a feeling of "investment." If a Vintage deck comes out of a laser printer, the only investment/ownership comes from deckbuilding. But we have titans like Menendian and Shay who build mean decks.

If we want to grow the format, we have to give people a mechanism by which to feel invested. I'm always amazed by how much of the business from my online store is clearly driven by EDH. People both buy expensive cards and build "unique" decks because mean decks are implicitly forbidden.
And I'm genuinely in favor of banning Rich from Vintage unless he's playing goblins. In fact, I think we should put it up to a vote. Something like, "Should we all shun Rich unless he plays Goblins at every tourney he attends for the next year?" Given that this is Rich we're talking about, he'll probably win anyways and leave people thinking goblins is a viable deck.

Quote
If you want more people to enjoy the topography of the forest canopy as it was in 2010, well, you're going to have to plant some trees just as tall as the Power Nine right next to them.  (Duck's Dumb Power or something like that).  If you don't mind the forest changing, however, then Wizards can keep right on doing what they are doing - printing other cards that create new local maximums that are not overshadowed by the Power Nine and can compete with them.
And they totally could do this. While it would wreck Vintage as a format, the Commander guys don't think unbanning Mox Ruby would be bad if not for the insane price. It's sort of fascinating to me that they've banned Library of Alexandria for being expensive. "Dumb power" might actually be printed/printable in a Commander product if they ban it in Legacy.
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« Reply #91 on: September 24, 2014, 03:11:03 pm »

I never really understood the "high barrier of entry will cause players to stick with the format" argument. If I spend $10,000 on Vintage staples and grow tired of the format, I'm not going to keep getting up at 5:00 AM to drive three hours to the nearest sparsely-attended Vintage tournament, risking my "investment" getting damaged or stolen. I will sell my cards on ebay instead (likely for a profit) or, even worse for the community, send my cards off to get graded and stash them in my basement for years waiting for a rainy day.
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« Reply #92 on: September 24, 2014, 04:32:57 pm »

I'd argue that grading is the biggest single threat to cardboard Vintage and the best argument in favor of flooding the market with fake power.

Everyone on the internet listening in...
Printing/forging/laundering money is WAYYYY harder than just printing off good fake Black Lotuses. Carry a bunch of cash across a border/onto an airplane and people ask questions. Carry a stack of Black Lotuses? Easy peasy. Even Bitcoins are more traceable. Black Lotus: the safest way to transport and launder large sums of money.

The FBI and NSA are listening in now? The price of Black Lotus is the largest known threat to national security. It enables money laundering for turrurist organizations. I even heard a rumor that some members of ISIS have Black Lotuses! You should totally have the SEC crack down on this unregulated, seedy, and dangerous commodities market!

While it may be that you were being facetious, this is beyond the pale. The action suggested by this post is in breach of Rule VII(6) - "Any behavior intended to cause severe disruption to the forums or the Vintage community, or which forseeably has that effect."

Following staff discussion, you are banned from TMD.

Anyone else reading - be on notice that Staff will not tolerate suggestions that players should go out and make or buy counterfeit cards and attempt to pass them off as genuine.
-Godder
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 10:50:55 pm by Godder » Logged

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« Reply #93 on: September 24, 2014, 11:39:28 pm »

https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/506628305454256129

He originally asked:

"@mtgaaron: What underplayed Magic format would you like to see more focus/events for, either in paper or online?"

Then:

"@mtgaaron: Vintage is a popular answer. Is that desire mostly for more online stuff? Or to make high-profile stuff for viewing? Hard to grow paper."

See the responses

It seems that this thread quickly developed into a discussion of how the Reserved list is dooming paper vintage. It is interesting to me that Aaron's original quote essentially stated that the future of Vintage Magic is online. Therefore, question I find relevant is now that there is a platform through which Vintage can be grown and nurtured free from the burdens of the reserved list how can WOTC engage the player base to energize the format.

I have two thoughts on the matter. The first of which is that if the return of leagues includes allowing constructed Vintage leagues, it would be a boon to the format. I suspect the average Vintage player online is older and the time commitment of a daily event is reducing interest in these events. However, if the commitment is only 4 or five matches a week it would allow greater number of participants.

My second thought is to address the meaningfulness of prizes in Vintage events. To date Vintage has had only 2 events with significant prizes on MODO. The Vintage Champs and (maybe) the one PE. It could be just me, but if my suspicion that Vintage attracts older players is correct, I suspect most older players have more appealing things to do then to grind Daily events where even a great player's EV/hour is laughably low. Perhaps something like tournaments for Power, (or better yet original art power) would drive interest in the format. 
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« Reply #94 on: September 25, 2014, 12:06:20 am »

Well the Daily events almost never fire, so it's not possible to grind even if you wanted to.
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« Reply #95 on: September 25, 2014, 06:44:52 am »

I suspect most older players have more appealing things to do then to grind Daily events where even a great player's EV/hour is laughably low. Perhaps something like tournaments for Power, (or better yet original art power) would drive interest in the format.
And that's really the thing: unlike in paper magic where "winning" doesn't make power appear out of thin air, there's no reason at all why tourneys for power online can't generate a larger pool of power.

That said, Cockatrice is pretty good and you don't need to grind.
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« Reply #96 on: September 25, 2014, 01:28:38 pm »

As was noted in the VSL thread, the mothership has an article regarding the VSL. Continued regular coverage of Vintage on WOTCs home page is something I hope to continue to see after Vintage Masters leaves MODO. Continuing coverage is important to at least spark interest in people who may become Vintage players. Let's not go  back to getting one vintage article a year around Vintage Champs time.
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« Reply #97 on: September 25, 2014, 03:19:05 pm »

I have felt for a while that the best way to add Vintage cards to the mix would be to print an extremely limited quantity from the Reserved List (maybe doubling the total available or something), and sell the packs for charity, directly to the consumer.  Limit each address to five packs apiece or something to keep the SCG's of the world from cornering the market.  Give the money to Child's Plan, Children's Hospital of Seattle, whatever.

Vintage (and Legacy for duals) fans will buy them up at $50+ per pack, more cards go into circulation, the secondary market doesn't take a significant hit, especially if you use new art which WotC has already paid for.  We get more people to shuffle up with, sick kids/research hospitals/whatever get a crapton of cash, Wizards get great press that costs them nothing beyond the cost to print and ship, everyone wins.
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« Reply #98 on: September 25, 2014, 04:20:50 pm »

That's as hobbled by the Reserve List as any other printing strategy. There are plenty of ways to reprint Power without actually breaking the Reserve List. Very few options that don't blow up in their face legally, though.

1. Skirt the reserve list and double the number of Moxes you can play per deck.
--Both paper and online Vintage die unless they tack on a clunky keyword.
1. Skirt the reserve list and double the number of Moxes you can play per deck, but tack on a keyword so you won't.
--This might help Vintage if only because a good alternative to power could double the number of playable strategies.
3. Do nothing.
--Paper Vintage dies.
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« Reply #99 on: September 25, 2014, 05:00:16 pm »

--Paper Vintage dies.

That's a strong word. Paper vintage is in no immediate danger of dying. Perhaps many years down the line. At the moment it's doing alright in certain areas. Vintage worlds next month will be a nice indicator as well.
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« Reply #100 on: September 30, 2014, 03:50:17 pm »

This just in.
Aaron Forysythe trolls Vintage community with question he already knows the answer to.
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« Reply #101 on: October 01, 2014, 02:31:48 pm »

When they printed double faced cards and allowed them to be played in opaque sleeves I fully expected CE/IE/GB to be allowed for eternal formats. It's a shame they are so stubborn about it. I've got a deck full of Delvers with blue insect backs and yet I can't play a CE Gauntlet of Might with a much more like normal back face.

I'd tell Aaron to allow those 3 card pools in eternal play.
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« Reply #102 on: October 02, 2014, 10:22:03 am »

When they printed double faced cards and allowed them to be played in opaque sleeves I fully expected CE/IE/GB to be allowed for eternal formats. It's a shame they are so stubborn about it. I've got a deck full of Delvers with blue insect backs and yet I can't play a CE Gauntlet of Might with a much more like normal back face.

I'd tell Aaron to allow those 3 card pools in eternal play.

AMEN!

Even though I'd be very po'd since I sold my CE set a few months ago, this is still the absolute right thing to do for the format.
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« Reply #103 on: October 02, 2014, 11:10:08 am »

As far as I know, CE cards also have different thickness, so maybe that could also be a problem. And their borders are squared, so if you look at their upper side (when shielded) you probably can tell which are CE and which are not.
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« Reply #104 on: October 02, 2014, 11:21:56 am »

The border issue could be said the same thing about Alpha borders. I haven't noticed a thickness difference after using CE for quite some time. I think CE/IE would offer up 1500+ sets of power and 400-500 sets of duals. Its not going to kill the prices of ABU power and it will help the break in cost a little.
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« Reply #105 on: October 02, 2014, 12:17:34 pm »

There is no difference in thickness, nor can you tell the corners in good sleaves (KMC Matte, for example). I ran my CE power and duals in my cube for about 18 months and there was never an issue at all, and I specifically asked my players to keep an eye out for this reason.
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« Reply #106 on: October 02, 2014, 01:22:43 pm »

How much would that matter? Wouldn't the cost of CE cards skyrocket if they were ever made legal anyway?
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« Reply #107 on: October 02, 2014, 03:51:16 pm »

The only thickness difference you may notice is if you look very closely when your CE/ICE is from a box set that was cracked relatively recently.  An ABU Mox that has been out of the pack since 94 has been exposed to a lot more moisture than one taken from a sealed set over 2 decades later...but it isn't noticeable in good sleeves, and all older cards suffer from this if their sealed packaging was not cracked until recently.
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« Reply #108 on: October 02, 2014, 04:40:47 pm »

There is no pattern that isn't already present with older cards, double faced cards, or alpha cards ... marked cards pattern is a rules violation (or it used to be anyway). You can square off the corners of your basics and run you finger along before ever draw step and you are cheating, cheating is cheating.

As for whether they'd dent value, I'm not sure if they would just increase and soak a little demand or whether it would make a dent on other power (e.g. would white bordered power be less desirable than IE/CE power?). Either way, it doesn't impact WotCs bottom line in anyway other than slightly increasing the number of people who can play vintage who might be prompted to play other formats or buy commander sets. So I'd think they'd want to do it strictly for PR, it's a nod to players.
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« Reply #109 on: October 02, 2014, 09:03:20 pm »

It would be pretty nice to be able to afford black bordered duals and power... I like CE being legal Razz
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« Reply #110 on: October 08, 2014, 09:09:37 am »

Well, I'm not sure it would even dent the prices given the hysterical demand to play paper vintage. MODO is only going to drum up more demand. Tangentially it might keep CE/IE from continuously being destroyed in an effort to make fakes. The prices on CE have risen also over the years - I haven't checked recently but I think a CE Lotus is $200-300. If they were made legal I could see a CE Lotus being worth more than an UL.

The net is it might mean a few hundred more people could play paper vintage, which again has zero impact on WotCs bottom line and can only be looked at as a benign gesture by the player base.
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« Reply #111 on: October 08, 2014, 11:25:36 am »

exactly. It doesn;t really help them (unless they have hundreds of the sets unshipped somewhere that they can sell 6 months later to SCG for $$$$$), but it can;t really hurt them (too low impact). It's a gesture, nothing more, but it would help the format a bit and bring some positive publicity.
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« Reply #112 on: October 08, 2014, 06:52:48 pm »

Why does Vintage need to be fixed by reprinting power or getting rid of the reserve list?

The format has a bunch of die hard fans, who will go to great links to travel and who have invested both time and money into the game over an extended period of time.  If you can't afford to play vintage, but you really want to, then pick up an extra job, save money, invest wisely.  I don't know what else to say.

I'd like to drive a Porsche and pay for escorts every night of the week, guess what, I can't.  I guess I'll just have to find something else to do.  Read books, work out, or come up with ideas to make money so I can afford these things that I don't have. 

What ever happened to capitalism?  Supply and demand without interference?  Natural equilibrium?

Wizards doesn't need to print more copies of power and it shouldn't get rid of the reserve list because the fact that there is a reserve list and the policy holding it in place has helped grow the game.  I'll repeat that, THE RESERVE LIST HAS HELPED GROW THE GAME.  Other card games have done away with reserve lists and they aren't growing like Magic.  Lots of player's quit magic, put their cards in a closet, then come back years later and find out their cards aren't just still good, but they've gotten better.  The fact that these cards are a store of value makes them so rewarding to own.  On top of the fact that it is a great card game, the fact that it is an investment is the reason why most of us keep playing and acquiring cards.  The reason why we are willing to spend money on more. 

So what can wizards do to help support vintage?  They could turn the huge tournaments like Worlds and the Bazaar of Moxen into Pro-Tour Qualifying tournaments.  Vintage World champ gets a sweet original art and a trip to the Pro-Tour.  That would be nice. 

They could focus more website space on wizards.com to vintage related strategies and discussions.  The games on MODO are all tapped in some way (at least they used to be, I don't know about beta), they could show video footage of tournament finals online.  On a weekly basis. 

But what they shouldn't do is change policy -- a policy that has an impact on die hard customer's net worth -- to increase the accessibility of powerful cards and theoretically increase the popularity of vintage because that might not work.  I've been playing magic for 20 years, and I have never been more disenchanted by a format than I am with Legacy right now.  I could build any deck I want, and I hate the format entirely.  I have more fun playing standard (and a lot more fun playing Vintage).  Making it more assessable wouldn't change anything, I'll still despise the format. 

If people want to play vintage, then find a way to buy the cards and play.  If you are a little kid, study your brains out, go to college, and get a job and start buying em up.  Is it a lot of money to play Vintage right now, yes and no.  Is $10,000 a lot of money?  To me, $10,000 sounds like getting your ass off the couch and getting a second job, even if it means 2 years, then slowly work towards your goal.  Go do it. 
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« Reply #113 on: October 08, 2014, 08:14:46 pm »

Why does Vintage need to be fixed by reprinting power or getting rid of the reserve list?

The format has a bunch of die hard fans, who will go to great links to travel and who have invested both time and money into the game over an extended period of time.  If you can't afford to play vintage, but you really want to, then pick up an extra job, save money, invest wisely.  I don't know what else to say.


This doesn't change the fact that people are paying exorbitant amounts of money for cardboard, not to mention that prices have done nothing to help the format grow.


I'd like to drive a Porsche and pay for escorts every night of the week, guess what, I can't.  I guess I'll just have to find something else to do.  Read books, work out, or come up with ideas to make money so I can afford these things that I don't have.  
Cars and Vintage decks are very different things. A car is almost a necessity for many people, an absolute necessity for some, and a great convenience for others. If you have money to spare, yes, you can buy a Porsche. Escorts are completely incomparable to both Vintage and Cars, because they are real people, not objects or vehicles. The one thing they have in common is that they will cost you a lot of money. Both are completely different from buying cards for a hobby.



What ever happened to capitalism?  Supply and demand without interference?  Natural equilibrium?


Capitalism? Wizards reprinting Power would be very capitalist, and would make them a ton of money. It wouldn't be capitalist if they gave handouts of Power and Duals to everyone who asked for free, but no one is suggesting that.



Wizards doesn't need to print more copies of power and it shouldn't get rid of the reserve list because the fact that there is a reserve list and the policy holding it in place has helped grow the game.  I'll repeat that, THE RESERVE LIST HAS HELPED GROW THE GAME.  Other card games have done away with reserve lists and they aren't growing like Magic.  Lots of player's quit magic, put their cards in a closet, then come back years later and find out their cards aren't just still good, but they've gotten better.  The fact that these cards are a store of value makes them so rewarding to own.  On top of the fact that it is a great card game, the fact that it is an investment is the reason why most of us keep playing and acquiring cards.  The reason why we are willing to spend money on more.  

The list may have helped, even saved the game back in the 1990's, yes. The fact that other card games lack the popularity of Magic is due to a lot of things, but the lack of a reserve list is not one of them. Chronicles style reprints hurt card games; from what I've heard,  you can see it in Yugioh, but if reprints in general are bad for a game why have the reprints of fetches and shock lands in Standard sets been so popular and universally beloved? The shocklands and thoughtseize were reprinted in the two best selling sets ever. The only difference in this regard between Duals and shocks is that Duals are reserved. If a player finds their cards in a closet and finds out that they are still powerful in Vintage/Legacy, the reserved list has nothing to do with that. Reprinting a card does not affect its power level in any way whatsoever. The fact that Cards can be considered an investment is not the reason most of us keep playing. People don't play Vintage because it's an investment, they would just collect them if that were the case. People play Vintage because it's fun. Are you really planning to sell your Vintage cards in the future? That would mean you can no longer play Vintage. If the answer is yes, then being able to sell your cards for so much money, while an upside for you, is hurting the format you love(d) so much. To everyone else, is the real reason you keep buying Vintage cards so you can sell them, or so you can play with them? Most people here would say no, which you seem to support earlier on with your statement that Vintage has a bunch of die-hard fans.

Additionally, the reserved list is just a policy. If you do end up losing a few hundred dollars(though Its likelt the older versions of the staples would gain in value, not depreciate), remember that the list is not a legally Binding Contract. Policies change all the time. Some say Wizards doesn't want to lie to its customer base, but they have lied multiple times about Magic Online.



So what can wizards do to help support vintage?  They could turn the huge tournaments like Worlds and the Bazaar of Moxen into Pro-Tour Qualifying tournaments.  Vintage World champ gets a sweet original art and a trip to the Pro-Tour.  That would be nice.  

They could focus more website space on wizards.com to vintage related strategies and discussions.  The games on MODO are all tapped in some way (at least they used to be, I don't know about beta), they could show video footage of tournament finals online.  On a weekly basis.  

But what they shouldn't do is change policy -- a policy that has an impact on die hard customer's net worth -- to increase the accessibility of powerful cards and theoretically increase the popularity of vintage because that might not work.  I've been playing magic for 20 years, and I have never been more disenchanted by a format than I am with Legacy right now.  I could build any deck I want, and I hate the format entirely.  I have more fun playing standard (and a lot more fun playing Vintage).  Making it more assessable wouldn't change anything, I'll still despise the format.  

Your first two ideas are very reasonable. The comment about your "net worth" being reduced is absurd. The number one priority ofWizards of the Coast is to make money. They interact with their customers more than other companies do because they want to spread Magic and make more money. Wizards could make loads of money if they released Power 9 and duals over time. It would help store owners too. It would probably make Old-Bordered power rise in price, actually, because the demand would be greater. Reprinting Power and duals would certainly make Vintage more popular. If you watch the Vintage super league, there are countless people in the comments who say that they wish they could play the format. Some good-minded people point out proxy tournaments, but it's not enough. If Wizards publicly advertised the format in conjunction with their reprints, there would certainly be a massive influx of players. The same thing happened with Modern. I never said anything about Legacy, I dislike the format too, in fact, but helping out Legacy at the same time would make many other people happy. I have Duals and Forces. I'm about to buy the fetches I need so I can stop borrowing them. I'm slowly working my way towards power. I would gladly have my tropical and Volcanic Islands drop to $10 a piece if it meant weekly Vintage Tournaments. I play the format to have fun, not to invest, and you said yourself that you don't play Legacy because it isn't fun. I know that most of the forum will agree with me in this regard.

The reserved list has no place in the 21st Century, and is actually restricting Wizards' ability to make money. May it rot in hell.
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« Reply #114 on: October 08, 2014, 09:16:06 pm »

I'm happy that shock lands got reprinted because they were not on the reserve list.  I'm arms in the air overjoyed they reprinted on-color fetch lands because it vastly improves modern as a format, and again they were not on the reserve list.  I also sold all of mine after vintage masters was released, as I was telling everyone I knew "if they weren't being reprinted in vintage masters, they were coming in the fall."  Apparently I am some sort of evil speculator (actual capitalist) for making money on my hobby.

But I would be very angry if they reprinted actual dual lands because they said they would never do it.  I would join the class action law suit and go after them.  It became a legally binding contract when they marketed it on their website, boasted it to the world, and used it to sell more product.  It may not be "materially detrimental" to everyone's net worth, but if it effects more than 2 people in a negative way, then you've got a full on class action lawsuit on your hands.  It's false advertising.  You don't even have to be a good lawyer to win this thing, you just compare it to cigarette companies making claims in advertisements that cigarettes are not detrimental to health.  It's false advertising that affects monetary decisions, plain and simple.

I would be extremely happy to see wizards print something like Eternal Masters in paper.  Reprint all the great cards not on the reserve list:  Imperial Seal, Imperial Recruiter, Rishidan Port, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Karakas, Wasteland, Tarmogoyf, Daze, Gush.  Just so long as it doesn't include a single card on the reserve list, REPRINT REPRINT REPRINT!!!  Everything at it's original rarity while we are on it.  And don't mess it up by making it a limited set, just reprint all the good cards.   Print it in every language, and make the foils 2x rarer than a normal set.  It would print money for wizards, increase accessibility to eternal formats, and keep the promise of the reserve list.  


Anyone else agree?  

1) Vintage Masters Champ gets a Pro Tour Bid (of his/her choice in a year)

2) Eternal Masters gets printed in abundance and in every language.  
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« Reply #115 on: October 08, 2014, 11:47:53 pm »

I would be extremely happy to see wizards print something like Eternal Masters in paper.  Reprint all the great cards not on the reserve list:  , , Rishidan Port, , , , , , , .  Just so long as it doesn't include a single card on the reserve list, REPRINT REPRINT REPRINT!!!  Everything at it's original rarity while we are on it.  And don't mess it up by making it a limited set, just reprint all the good cards.   Print it in every language, and make the s 2x rarer than a normal set.  It would print money for wizards, increase accessibility to eternal formats, and keep the promise of the reserve list.  

The problem is that such a product will only serve to make Reserved list cards even *more* expensive as demand for the Reserved list cards just increased. What else is someone to do with and Imperial Seal or a Mana Drain that they open in such a set? They can only use those cards in Vintage... As for the Legacy playable cards... Dual Lands would be even more crazy. Get ready for $500-600 Revised Underground Seas!

Just look at Modern Masters. Every single card that wasn't reprinted shot up in value... and none of those cards have the backing of the Reserved list behind them. Think Power is crazy expensive now? Just wait until that set is released and it doubles in value in 2-3 weeks. In the end, all you are doing is shifting value around and throwing it all onto the Reserved list.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #116 on: October 08, 2014, 11:56:21 pm »

I would be perfectly fine with Wizards printing a new set of legendary dual lands in eternal masters.

As long as fetch lands are accessible, players could get away with basics and legenday duals.   All the while keeping old dual lands unique and over powered, but not necessary.

So new demands:

1) Vintage Masters Champ gets a Pro Tour Bid (of his/her choice in a year)

2) Eternal Masters gets printed in abundance and in every language.  Including never before seen Legendary Dual Lands.  


Smmenen, since you opened this thread, rhetoric aside, what do you think about these two proposals?



« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 12:08:39 am by gkraigher » Logged
gkraigher
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« Reply #117 on: October 09, 2014, 12:04:30 am »

Quote
Think Power is crazy expensive now?

I view the higher prices of power 9 to be a good thing for vintage tournament attendance.   As a community, we want the price of membership to increase, not decrease.  If the price increases, it will get in the hands of the most devoted players.  These are the people that travel to events and love the game.  I don't think the power should ever be reprinted in paper form, under any circumstance.  

Every year power rises in price, every year Vintage Worlds gets more players at it.  

Price increases can be a good thing.  
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Godder
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« Reply #118 on: October 09, 2014, 02:47:52 am »

Why does Vintage need to be fixed by reprinting power or getting rid of the reserve list?

...

What ever happened to capitalism?  Supply and demand without interference?  Natural equilibrium?

"Supply and demand without interference" requires supplying more things according to demand. If Wizards won't, and nobody else can (I am not going to advocate counterfeits), then the supply shrinks over time (new collectors and destroyed cards) - not a shining example of supply.

Wizards could fix that by supplying (printing) more...

Quote from: gkraigher
But I would be very angry if they reprinted actual dual lands because they said they would never do it.  I would join the class action law suit and go after them.  It became a legally binding contract when they marketed it on their website, boasted it to the world, and used it to sell more product.  It may not be "materially detrimental" to everyone's net worth, but if it effects more than 2 people in a negative way, then you've got a full on class action lawsuit on your hands.  It's false advertising.  You don't even have to be a good lawyer to win this thing, you just compare it to cigarette companies making claims in advertisements that cigarettes are not detrimental to health.  It's false advertising that affects monetary decisions, plain and simple.

... but the Reserve List and threats to sue means they have opted not to.
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« Reply #119 on: October 09, 2014, 09:08:11 am »

Quote
Think Power is crazy expensive now?

I view the higher prices of power 9 to be a good thing for vintage tournament attendance.   As a community, we want the price of membership to increase, not decrease.  If the price increases, it will get in the hands of the most devoted players.  These are the people that travel to events and love the game.  I don't think the power should ever be reprinted in paper form, under any circumstance.  

Every year power rises in price, every year Vintage Worlds gets more players at it.  

Price increases can be a good thing.  

You do understand how ridiculous that sounds, right? Vintage is the "old boys club" after all, why not cement that feeling with even HIGHER prices for Power!
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