Is KTK a new Alara Block

[Protoaddict]

So with all the previews we have gotten so far, KTK is shaping up to look a lot like Alara. Besides the obvious Tri-Color theme, Trilands, and a mechanic per shard, we seem to be getting a lot of high P/T creatures for their CMC (but usually gold) and a lot of big spells with big costs.

Now, I'm sorta disregarding all the Cruel Ultimatum stuff we are getting, but does anyone else think that between Delve and the traditionally stronger gold cards we will get some format altering stuff in this block. Alara had a big influence on every format and there are plenty of cards from that block that still see play (Hierarchic, Pridemage, Path to Exile, Tezz, KotR).

My hope is that we see a some delve cards that change the format. Either cards that can be played for free, or even a black counterspell that is worth playing or something. Anyone else trying to remain optimistic for this new set after Theros?

[JarofFortune]

KTK is a Wedge set, not a Wedge Block. Wotc has stressed this point multiple times. I'm not liking the chances of this set adding many playable cards considering what they've already spoiled. I think we should stop making these threads. We need to accept that Magic is going in a bad direction, and won't get out of it for a while, because Wizards is so desperate to please all the new players who apparently lose it whenever somebody plays something as simple as a doom blade. Speculating that there might be a black counter spell doesn't make it any more likely that there will be one, and making threads too discuss cards like Meteorite and Ugin's Nexus only shows how desperate everyone is.

[Protoaddict]

So I take it then your on the side of pessimism

[mmcgeach]

I haven't really counted, but don't we get a lot more vintage-playable cards annually now that WOTC does eternal-only sets?  Maybe we should just hold our enthusiasm until next month when the commander product spoilers start.

OTOH, I like the speculative threads.  Keep making them!

[JarofFortune]

I haven't really counted, but don't we get a lot more vintage-playable cards annually now that WOTC does eternal-only sets?  Maybe we should just hold our enthusiasm until next month when the commander product spoilers start.

And do you know what we got the last time? True-Name. If cards of that style are all that they print for the format, I am not happy about the future at all.

So I take it then your on the side of pessimism

I used to be much more optimistic and hopeful about all of this. But over time, Theros block wore that feeling down, and it died with M15.

[MaximumCDawg]

I think it's totally another Alara.  They are experimenting with combining colors in different ways, and this forces them to think outside the box on what effects end up on a card.  We will see powerful and interesting things out of this set.

On the flip side, the need to include two or three colors on a card that does not use Hybrid mana means your casting costs are starting at 2 and 3, minimum, so the total cost in the set is probably higher than normal.  So, you get the bad with the good.

[Protoaddict]

Well, hopefully delve will make up for that a bit, at least in that wedge. Cost reduction is always a thing to look out for, I mean look at Phyrexian mana.

We have seen 3 mana and even 4 mana spells get play in vintage provided they have game winning utility, and 3-4cmc cards at 3 colors, I think thats a safe assumption for a fair amount of them.

It's the 2cmc gold cards though, that's where you often find stuff like pridemage where it's a well costed body with a lot of utility, or mana fixing, which you can be sure we will get in a wedge set. We have not seen a good sorta-moxen since scars, this seems like the kinda set that could have surprises in it.

[MaximumCDawg]

Yeah, I agree.  I'm waiting on three things in a wedge set, this one in particular:

(1) Relevant Mana fixing - We got this in fetchlands.  I mean, we already had them, but still, these are Vintage playable effects.

(2) Unusual combinations of effects on multicolored cards.  Pridemage was like this.  

(3) Cheap cantrippy spells to abuse the Jeskai mechanic.  So far, we don't have any, but we don't have the commons yet.  Let's hold out hope!

Delve would normally be something I was looking forward to as well, but -- have you SEEN the Delve cards so far?  The Demon costs NINE MANA for a body smaller than Tombstalker, the Zombie token spawner costs XX rather than X... they're playing it ultra safe.  I don't expect much to come of Delve.  Heck, I don't even think they have the cajones to reprint that Delve counterspell.

[gkraigher]

the cards from this set have been really safe.  we got a few decent cards in theros block with swan song, keranos god of storms, and brimaz.  I feel like we will see something similar out of this set.  Fun card design, maybe some playables, but nothing earth shattering.  

Thankfully, Wizards is printing another commander set this year, which is the way they get to sculpt the eternal formats.  I'm expecting some ground breaking cards from that set again.  Off the bat, we get 5 new mono color planes walkers.  

One of the designers (I think roswater) calls the block Bizarre Alara.  

MaxDawg, with young pyromancer rotating out of standard, I think they could get away with some pretty strong commons/uncommons with the Jeskai mechanic. 

[brianpk80]

I'm concerned we may not even get a Swan Song, given that the power level seems to be even lower than Theros.  These are dark times. 

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm concerned we may not even get a Swan Song, given that the power level seems to be even lower than Theros.  These are dark times. 

No it isn't.  Excluding the fetchlands, we've already got a handful of contenders for Vintage playability.  Other formats got some juicy cards too, like a BG Nantuko Shade with regeneration.  Just as Theros was nowhere near Homelands, so far this set is nowhere near Theros.  It's more like Journey into Nyx so far.

[JarofFortune]

The "putrid leech" will see almost no play in any format.I am with Brian on this, I am very concerned. At leaSt with Alara they were wilking to push stuff.

[zeus-online]

.

[JarofFortune]

Honestly, Alara block fueled the Jund decks which, in my opinion, where miserable to play against.

I don't know if i would wish the poor standard players to face something like that again.

It might be worse. They are all but killing off Control, and aggro will have a lot of trouble. Meanwhile, Midrange gets the core of Elvish mystic, Sylvan Caryatid, Courser of Kruphix, Polukranos, and fetchlands. It will probably be a block where the most interesting "innovation" is someone bringing G/W midrange to an event instead of G/R or G/U. And to think that Wizards wanted to have all of this year's Pro Tours be Standard.

[brianpk80]

I'm concerned we may not even get a Swan Song, given that the power level seems to be even lower than Theros.  These are dark times. 

No it isn't.  Excluding the fetchlands, we've already got a handful of contenders for Vintage playability.  Other formats got some juicy cards too, like a BG Nantuko Shade with regeneration.  Just as Theros was nowhere near Homelands, so far this set is nowhere near Theros.  It's more like Journey into Nyx so far.

Theros was a mature take on Homelands.  The design philosophy wasn't as sophisticated as it is now when Homelands was released so we can blame inexperience and uncertainty of how to manage the game in its relative youth.  With Theros, there is no excuse.  They knew what they were doing and they did it anyway--consciously, deliberately, and with misleading false hype. 

While I admire your optimism and enthusiasm (being sincere here), I don't see any cards in the set so far with substantial relevance to Vintage. Anafenza is "Vintage considerable" (distinct from outright playable) but if that's all the set vomits up, it will ultimately be worse than Theros because Theros managed to contain one lonely conditional counterspell in its underwhelming output of 250+ cards that was regularly played in Oath and Oath sideboards. 

As for Alara, that block has made its mark on Vintage and will be forever respected due to Tezzeret the Seeker, Noble Hierarch & the Cat Wizard, Ethersworn Canonist, and much more. 

[Protoaddict]

A set does not need to totally swing the format to be impactful. Hoping for new archetypes in vintage is typically a pipe dream though I think cavern was almost big enough to be considered one, but just giving alternate options to staples is usually something that really helps diversify formats.

So far we have a new dismember alternate, a new counterspell that may see play, a fringe playable human, and a triple fork (trident?) that could be usable in a build or 2. For 100 cards previewed that is not to bad, and I know fetches are old but certainly they help the format by being more available now to everyone.

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm concerned we may not even get a Swan Song, given that the power level seems to be even lower than Theros.  These are dark times. 

No it isn't.  Excluding the fetchlands, we've already got a handful of contenders for Vintage playability.  Other formats got some juicy cards too, like a BG Nantuko Shade with regeneration.  Just as Theros was nowhere near Homelands, so far this set is nowhere near Theros.  It's more like Journey into Nyx so far.

Theros was a mature take on Homelands.  The design philosophy wasn't as sophisticated as it is now when Homelands was released so we can blame inexperience and uncertainty of how to manage the game in its relative youth.  With Theros, there is no excuse.  They knew what they were doing and they did it anyway--consciously, deliberately, and with misleading false hype. 

While I admire your optimism and enthusiasm (being sincere here), I don't see any cards in the set so far with substantial relevance to Vintage. Anafenza is "Vintage considerable" (distinct from outright playable) but if that's all the set vomits up, it will ultimately be worse than Theros because Theros managed to contain one lonely conditional counterspell in its underwhelming output of 250+ cards that was regularly played in Oath and Oath sideboards. 

As for Alara, that block has made its mark on Vintage and will be forever respected due to Tezzeret the Seeker, Noble Hierarch & the Cat Wizard, Ethersworn Canonist, and much more. 

I'm not being optimistic, I'm just responding to hyperbolic comparisons.  Homelands is by and large the low point of Magic design.  Creatures were worthless, effects were overcosted.  The only reason there are playables from that format at all is that development didn't really exist and/or function properly, so Merchant Scroll exists.  There is almost nothing redeeming you can say about that set.

Theros was thematically wonderful but suffered from mechanics that were guaranteed from the get-go to be underwhelming.  They were either creature-based (Heroic), or designed in such a way that the usual suspects in Vintage could not abuse them (Devotion, Monstrous, Tribute).  The only mechanic that suggested we might see good playables was Inspired, because to make it a thing there should have been cheap tap/untap effects.  But, Wizards was timid and we got nothing to enable Inspired in a big way.  Overall, the set just flopped for eternal players because there was nothing we could easily abuse.  Note, however, that each set in that block did have one or two eternal plants, so it wasn't a complete loss.

So far, Khans is already looking better than Theros.  Most of the mechanics are still creature-based, true.  We have Raid, Ferocious, Prowess, Morph, and (snicker) Outlast.  That's not a tremendously good sign.  But this set has a few things going for it that Theros did NOT have, so there's reason to hold out judgment before we start taking a dump on it.

1. No mechanics that are designed specifically to prevent eternal players from abusing the cards.  There's no Devotion, Monstrous, or Tribute, which means that we will probably be able to Oath / Show and Tell / Natural Order / Tinker / etc whatever fatties they have in this set.  .

2. We have Delve.  This mechanic, and the need to support it with yard filling cards, can be quite playable in Vintage.  They have already shown that they are being a little more aggressive with Delve costs (Death Rattle got a serious upgrade) and we have yet to see all of the cards with Delve.  Sure, they might get timid about it, but this mechanic lends itself very well to Vintage.

3. Prowess puts pressure on design for the set to have lots of cheap blue spells and cantrips.  I can't see how giving your dorks +1/+1 until end of turn matters anywhere but Limited unless they enable you to churn through a few cards at once.  Perhaps they will rely on the Core set stuff like the red Three Wishes, but the pressure is certainly there to print things with multiple uses.  Again, they might get timid and do nothing with this design space, but it's too early to complain about that.

4. The multicolor mechanic leads to mixing and matching effects in new ways, which makes new interesting cards that are very good if not immediately playable in Vintage.  The Charms are all solid in this set, Narset has a very Vintage-playable ability, if not a Vintage-costed body, we have a counterspell which is like Spell Pierce that scales better into the lategame for some decks, a potent piece of Dredge hate, if overcosted, and other assorted goodies.

Bottom line: There's no evidence at the moment that this set is bad like Theros.  The mechanics don't portent doom like Theros did.  Let's wait and see.

[JarofFortune]

A set does not need to totally swing the format to be impactful. Hoping for new archetypes in vintage is typically a pipe dream though I think cavern was almost big enough to be considered one, but just giving alternate options to staples is usually something that really helps diversify formats.

So far we have a new dismember alternate, a new counterspell that may see play, a fringe playable human, and a triple fork (trident?) that could be usable in a build or 2. For 100 cards previewed that is not to bad, and I know fetches are old but certainly they help the format by being more available now to everyone.

The dismember "alternative" and the counterspell will see no play. I get the impression that everyone just wants Khans to be good so badly that they will consider stuff like this, similar to Akroan Horse and its ilk.

 

I'm concerned we may not even get a Swan Song, given that the power level seems to be even lower than Theros.  These are dark times.  

No it isn't.  Excluding the fetchlands, we've already got a handful of contenders for Vintage playability.  Other formats got some juicy cards too, like a BG Nantuko Shade with regeneration.  Just as Theros was nowhere near Homelands, so far this set is nowhere near Theros.  It's more like Journey into Nyx so far.

Theros was a mature take on Homelands.  The design philosophy wasn't as sophisticated as it is now when Homelands was released so we can blame inexperience and uncertainty of how to manage the game in its relative youth.  With Theros, there is no excuse.  They knew what they were doing and they did it anyway--consciously, deliberately, and with misleading false hype.  

While I admire your optimism and enthusiasm (being sincere here), I don't see any cards in the set so far with substantial relevance to Vintage. Anafenza is "Vintage considerable" (distinct from outright playable) but if that's all the set vomits up, it will ultimately be worse than Theros because Theros managed to contain one lonely conditional counterspell in its underwhelming output of 250+ cards that was regularly played in Oath and Oath sideboards.  

As for Alara, that block has made its mark on Vintage and will be forever respected due to Tezzeret the Seeker, Noble Hierarch & the Cat Wizard, Ethersworn Canonist, and much more.  

I'm not being optimistic, I'm just responding to hyperbolic comparisons.  Homelands is by and large the low point of Magic design.  Creatures were worthless, effects were overcosted.  The only reason there are playables from that format at all is that development didn't really exist and/or function properly, so Merchant Scroll exists.  There is almost nothing redeeming you can say about that set.

Theros was thematically wonderful but suffered from mechanics that were guaranteed from the get-go to be underwhelming.  They were either creature-based (Heroic), or designed in such a way that the usual suspects in Vintage could not abuse them (Devotion, Monstrous, Tribute).  The only mechanic that suggested we might see good playables was Inspired, because to make it a thing there should have been cheap tap/untap effects.  But, Wizards was timid and we got nothing to enable Inspired in a big way.  Overall, the set just flopped for eternal players because there was nothing we could easily abuse.  Note, however, that each set in that block did have one or two eternal plants, so it wasn't a complete loss.

So far, Khans is already looking better than Theros.  Most of the mechanics are still creature-based, true.  We have Raid, Ferocious, Prowess, Morph, and (snicker) Outlast.  That's not a tremendously good sign.  But this set has a few things going for it that Theros did NOT have, so there's reason to hold out judgment before we start taking a dump on it.

1. No mechanics that are designed specifically to prevent eternal players from abusing the cards.  There's no Devotion, Monstrous, or Tribute, which means that we will probably be able to Oath / Show and Tell / Natural Order / Tinker / etc whatever fatties they have in this set.  .

2. We have Delve.  This mechanic, and the need to support it with yard filling cards, can be quite playable in Vintage.  They have already shown that they are being a little more aggressive with Delve costs (Death Rattle got a serious upgrade) and we have yet to see all of the cards with Delve.  Sure, they might get timid about it, but this mechanic lends itself very well to Vintage.

3. Prowess puts pressure on design for the set to have lots of cheap blue spells and cantrips.  I can't see how giving your dorks +1/+1 until end of turn matters anywhere but Limited unless they enable you to churn through a few cards at once.  Perhaps they will rely on the Core set stuff like the red Three Wishes, but the pressure is certainly there to print things with multiple uses.  Again, they might get timid and do nothing with this design space, but it's too early to complain about that.

4. The multicolor mechanic leads to mixing and matching effects in new ways, which makes new interesting cards that are very good if not immediately playable in Vintage.  The Charms are all solid in this set, Narset has a very Vintage-playable ability, if not a Vintage-costed body, we have a counterspell which is like Spell Pierce that scales better into the lategame for some decks, a potent piece of Dredge hate, if overcosted, and other assorted goodies.

Bottom line: There's no evidence at the moment that this set is bad like Theros.  The mechanics don't portent doom like Theros did.  Let's wait and see.

You know, most of the cards spoiled so far in Khans have been overcosted too. Outlast, raid, and ferocious are all very unlikely to have applications in Vintage, considering how scared Wizards is of powerful cards. I'm not expecting cheap blue cantrips, in part because Wizards said in an Article that they briefly considered Serum Visions for Theros, but decided Standard didn't "need" it. Not to mention that scry had potential to create some new playables, but Wizards panicked. If they are too scared of Serum Visions in Standard, I will not be expecting any playable cheap blue cards. As for Delve, and for an opinion on the whole set, we will have to wait until everything is spoiled.  Again, that Counterspell is unplayable.  

[MaximumCDawg]

That's all very possible, and we can evaluate that when the set is fully spoiled.

My point was more that there is no mechanical reason why Kahns is inclined to be less likely to produce eternal playable cards.  There was such a mechanical reason with respect to Theros.  As a result, there's no basis to predict it's an eternal stinker until we get the whole spoiler.

[JarofFortune]

That's all very possible, and we can evaluate that when the set is fully spoiled.

My point was more that there is no mechanical reason why Kahns is inclined to be less likely to produce eternal playable cards.  There was such a mechanical reason with respect to Theros.  As a result, there's no basis to predict it's an eternal stinker until we get the whole spoiler.

There was a mechanical reason to hope for playables out of Theros. There was scry. We got nothing out of scry. The rest of the mechanics, were,  like you said, unlikely to produce playables. Khans has the same setup. There are mechanics that almost certainly won't do anything, and others that have potential. I am simply not getting my hopes up for the mechanics with potential, because I don't want the same feeling of disappointment I had with Theros Block.

[zeus-online]

.

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm not being optimistic, I'm just responding to hyperbolic comparisons.  Homelands is by and large the low point of Magic design.  Creatures were worthless, effects were overcosted.  The only reason there are playables from that format at all is that development didn't really exist and/or function properly, so Merchant Scroll exists.  There is almost nothing redeeming you can say about that set.

I don't buy that merchant scroll was too powerful at all. Sure it was and is extremely powerful in vintage, but it has not really seen that much play outside of vintage.

I think memory lapse, which is from homelands, is an all-over stronger magic card. It has certainly seen more play over the years.

That's true, but Memory Lapse sees no play anywhere at the moment.  Which is odd.  Isn't it Modern legal?  Or am I mistaken?  I thought it was in the Core Set for a million years.

Anyway, I will say that the nay-sayers certainly are getting more ammunition as more cards get spoiled.  Lots of very bad cards getting spoiled with a great deal of fanfare.  Still, let's wait and see.

[zeus-online]

.

[Protoaddict]

Memory lapse is not modern legal. If it was I assure you it would actually be a problem card, on the level of being bannable, since that is a format without consistent fast mana or card draw, and not only does that card counter without the possibility of replay, it is far more devastating on turn 2 when you can stifle someone later land drops because they are drawing one turn behind.

Homelands I think had 5ish playables, as I remember Carapace being played in enchantress in legacy at some point until it got outclassed, primal order was also sideboarded in against some decks, and Serrated Arrows still sees play in some lists. Hell Trade Caravan saw play in stasis at some point.

I mean for a 115 card set, 5 playables in this day and age is not even bad. How many playables did Dragons Maze have? or Avacyn? It's like I said before, a set does not have to contribute too many cards to affect the format.

[brianpk80]

I'm not being optimistic, I'm just responding to hyperbolic comparisons.  Homelands is by and large the low point of Magic design. 

Right, but Homelands was early on in Magic's lifespan, when the developers weren't sure how to balance the game and were going through a phase of extreme timidity regarding power level that swung too far in the wrong direction.  We can forgive them and empathize on account of immaturity.  17 years later, to deliberately produce a trail of sets that are almost or even arguably as bad as Homelands--inexcusable. 

[rickster]

How many playables did Dragons Maze have? or Avacyn? It's like I said before, a set does not have to contribute too many cards to affect the format.

Craterhoof Behemoth
Entreat the Angels
Griselbrand
Cavern of Souls
Restoration Angel
Terminus
Vexing Devil (won a modern GP)
Desolate Lighthouse (staple in Modern UR twin decks)

fringe playable
Misthollow Griffin (legacy food chain)
Wild Defiance (modern infect)
Sigarda Host of Herons (melira pod)

[MTGFan]

Additionally, if you have ever heard Mark Rosewater talk about the genesis of Homelands (on his podcast, for example), you will know that back then, Richard Garfield actually gave his friends the opportunity to design entire sets as *favors*. The group that designed Homelands was part of Richard's roleplaying circle to whom he had promised the ability to design a set *before Magic was even first released*. And that group had little game design experience and even less familiarity with the rules of Magic. They saw it as an extension of their roleplaying experience.

Under these circumstances we have to completely forgive designers of sets such as Homelands for their lack of competitive balance. The design goals of these teams were more focused on aesthetics and flavor than anything else.

Modern sets cull input from vast teams of professional designers with a deep understanding of the game mechanics. To deliberately produce sets of the power level of Homelands at this point is simply irresponsible. And these sets don't even have the saving grace of Homelands - spectacular flavor!

[KrauserKrauser]

Homelands also suffered because the developers were so annoyed with the set being shoved down their throats that they didn't do any balancing.

They knew the set was bad, said the set was bad, were told that the set had to be made regardless and said "Ok, you want it, you got it" and thus Homelands was born.

[MaximumCDawg]

We got a slew of interesting new cards today from Kahns, from a Delve riff on Ancestral Recall, to Fecundity on a 3/2 for the same mana, to a 1U hard counter for 4cc+ cards, to a card that draws cards when you unmorph creatures.  Even if these do not make a splash in Vintage, these cards are more powerful and more interesting that the kind of stuff we saw with Theros.  Many of them might be quite relevant in Modern.  Looking good!

[The Atog Lord]

I don't know if Treasure Cruise will see Vintage play. But it is certainly good enough that it could reasonably see Vintage play. I think that, while we can't know what direction this set will take Vintage, or even if it will move Vintage at all, it has at least given us some cards that have the potential to be Vintage-worthy. And I think that is all that can be asked of any set.