Treasure Cruise

[fsecco]

If you hit this with a Snapcaster Mage, I believe you get to pay it's Delve cost?  So, from that perspective, this card seems fine in a list where you want to fill the yard as you dig for cards and then dig again if you haven't hit what you want. 

Heck, let's say you ran Oath of Druids and Snapcaster Mage as your target.  Because YOLO.  You mill one of these, hit it with snappy, Ancestral yourself, rinse and repeat. 

Hahahahahahahahaha makes me want to do that just for the fun of it.

But on a serious note, why would you pay 1G for an Ancestral Recall when you could pay 1G for a Yawgmoth's Bargain?

[MaximumCDawg]

But on a serious note, why would you pay 1G for an Ancestral Recall when you could pay 1G for a Yawgmoth's Bargain?

I have no serious answer to that serious question.  I can only refer you to the aforementioned "YOLO"

[dangerlinto]

But on a serious note, why would you pay 1G for an Ancestral Recall when you could pay 1G for a Yawgmoth's Bargain?

Because you are at 6 life?

[fsecco]

But on a serious note, why would you pay 1G for an Ancestral Recall when you could pay 1G for a Yawgmoth's Bargain?

I have no serious answer to that serious question.  I can only refer you to the aforementioned "YOLO"

Hahahahaha. You can also use Pull from Eternity as a pseudo-Regrowth for W after that. Top play.

But seriously, my liking of this card lasted 1 day. I really think Dig Through Time is much, much better.

[MaximumCDawg]

Well, no, I still think this card is more likely to be playable than Dig Through Time.  Dig just competes with so many other tutor or dig type effects that cost 2 or less without yard hijinks.  At least Cruise, when it is properly funded, is Ancestral Recall.  The only competition is a card that everyone runs and would run as many as they possibly could.

[Protoaddict]

Yea I'm in the same boat fsecco. As cute as this is most decks would rather have best 2 of 7 then 3 of 3, unless your dredge and just want to draw draw draw. You have a much better chance of 2 cards you need with Dig, and when you tack on instant speed I think it puts it over the top.

[Twiedel]

New Ancestral
U
Sorcery

As an Additional cost to play New Ancestral, remove your graveyard.
Draw 3 cards.
You cannot play New Ancestral in the first three turns. You cannot play New Ancestral if you played a New Ancestral card in the last two turns.

I think this is pretty close to what the card does - not talking about tiny differences and the occasional first turn that could enable it. I helps me understand the card better, and I think I'd almost never play such a card in any of my decks. If you factor in that the real card might be even more restrictive than just "wait three turns" .... I don't see it.

[JarofFortune]

In rug, the deck that wants it most, it won't remove your whole graveyard unless you're desperate or
Unlucky. I've already started testing it, and it is excellent as a single copy. Other than that, you described it pretty well.

[MaximumCDawg]

I think Twidel's definition is spot-on, too.  And it suggests that Wizards has no trouble with people casting horribly broken cards in the mid to late game (they printed Emrakul, after all), they just don't want that to happen on turn 1.  In some way, this might represent an attempt to do to spells what they did to creatures; print amazing and potentially game-breaking things without downside except that they realistically cannot be used until later in the game. 

Is this format-shaping for Modern?  They want a format with the same flavor of hijinks, big turns, and powerful combos as Legacy and Vintage, they just want to make sure games last at least four turns long?

[Oath of Happy]

New Ancestral
U
Sorcery

As an Additional cost to play New Ancestral, remove your graveyard.
Draw 3 cards.
You cannot play New Ancestral in the first three turns. You cannot play New Ancestral if you played a New Ancestral card in the last two turns.

I think this is pretty close to what the card does - not talking about tiny differences and the occasional first turn that could enable it. I helps me understand the card better, and I think I'd almost never play such a card in any of my decks. If you factor in that the real card might be even more restrictive than just "wait three turns" .... I don't see it.

Are you serious? You wouldn't play the card you just described? How reliably can you Snapcaster Ancestral before turn 4? And even then it still costs 2U vs U. And you can never do it again..

[MaximumCDawg]

You might play that.  But it's like the reverse problem Dark Ritual has.  It's a dead draw on turn 1 and a stupendous top deck on turn 4. 

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

Like jace?

[MaximumCDawg]

Like jace?

Black Lotus, Sol Ring, Moxen, Mana Drain, etc. all say hello.

Four mana is like a turn 2 play in Vintage.  Eight mana is not.

[MoonDark]

UR Pyrolmancer could use some of this... Will have to test it.

[Twiedel]

New Ancestral
U
Sorcery

As an Additional cost to play New Ancestral, remove your graveyard.
Draw 3 cards.
You cannot play New Ancestral in the first three turns. You cannot play New Ancestral if you played a New Ancestral card in the last two turns.

I think this is pretty close to what the card does - not talking about tiny differences and the occasional first turn that could enable it. I helps me understand the card better, and I think I'd almost never play such a card in any of my decks. If you factor in that the real card might be even more restrictive than just "wait three turns" .... I don't see it.

Are you serious? You wouldn't play the card you just described? How reliably can you Snapcaster Ancestral before turn 4? And even then it still costs 2U vs U. And you can never do it again..

I have snapcastered turn 1, turn 2 and turn 3 a lot - and I don't even like Snapcaster and never force it by playing the full set. The thing in Vintage is that you want to have strong lategames in some decks, but you don't wanna have an insane mana draw (which is what the format is about in my view) and just do nothing because your cards are turned off in the first few turns. I'm not willing to work for +2 cards when I have options that can be used in the first two turns consistenly and are almost as good (see: thirst, night's whisper, preordain, etc.).

And a word on Jace: If Jace could not be played turn 1 or turn 2, it would see play only in the slowest control decks, maybe as a one-of. Jace is broken because you can play it turn 1 or 2 and be in a position that is as close to winning as it could be. Of course you can't rely on that, but it happens and wins you games.

[serracollector]

Landstill runs 4 jace and usually only 1 mox and lotus. Just pointing this out.

[ben_berry]

Landstill runs 4 jace and usually only 1 mox and lotus. Just pointing this out.

would see play only in the slowest control decks

[zeus-online]

.

[KanaKaishou]

My thought is that maybe you can jam Thought Scours in your deck to make this card better? Thought Scour is already on the verge of playability (u: draw a card isn't that bad, and the marginal value with your tops, and opponents top of deck tutors e.g. is close) I think it's only good in a Pyromancer or U/W Shell, and even then...

I suspect the card finds a home, but how much you have to do to support it in real life is the limiter on how good it ends up being.

[Protoaddict]

I would say that you want to have a strong mid-late game in some decks, without sacrificing the early game too much. The main problem with this card is that it is pretty bad in the opening hand. Much worse than fact/gifts/jace/impulse.

I'm not sure that any non restricted blue card that has powerful application in your deck is ever dead in a deck that wants to pitch them to force, hide them with brainstorm, toss it with dack, etc. These are things you want to do anyway.

[Oath of Happy]

New Ancestral
U
Sorcery

As an Additional cost to play New Ancestral, remove your graveyard.
Draw 3 cards.
You cannot play New Ancestral in the first three turns. You cannot play New Ancestral if you played a New Ancestral card in the last two turns.

I think this is pretty close to what the card does - not talking about tiny differences and the occasional first turn that could enable it. I helps me understand the card better, and I think I'd almost never play such a card in any of my decks. If you factor in that the real card might be even more restrictive than just "wait three turns" .... I don't see it.

Are you serious? You wouldn't play the card you just described? How reliably can you Snapcaster Ancestral before turn 4? And even then it still costs 2U vs U. And you can never do it again..

I have snapcastered turn 1, turn 2 and turn 3 a lot - and I don't even like Snapcaster and never force it by playing the full set. The thing in Vintage is that you want to have strong lategames in some decks, but you don't wanna have an insane mana draw (which is what the format is about in my view) and just do nothing because your cards are turned off in the first few turns. I'm not willing to work for +2 cards when I have options that can be used in the first two turns consistenly and are almost as good (see: thirst, night's whisper, preordain, etc.).

And a word on Jace: If Jace could not be played turn 1 or turn 2, it would see play only in the slowest control decks, maybe as a one-of. Jace is broken because you can play it turn 1 or 2 and be in a position that is as close to winning as it could be. Of course you can't rely on that, but it happens and wins you games.

I would say that you want to have a strong mid-late game in some decks, without sacrificing the early game too much. The main problem with this card is that it is pretty bad in the opening hand. Much worse than fact/gifts/jace/impulse.

Yawgmoth's will is pretty bad in your opener, I've never heard people say you shouldn't run it because of that reason.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think the problem is instead of looking for "playable cards" that perhaps require you to build around or are good in only certain decks or peak at certain times, people are hoping for a "broken" card that will be good in every deck running color X at any point in the game.  Hate to break the news, but they stopped printing Ancestral Recall nearly 20 years ago and it'll never happen again.  Every now and then we get a real game changer, but those cards are really far and few (and like 5 years) between.  Golem, Chalice, trinisphere, fetchlands, confidant, jace, decay, tarmogoyf, snapcaster, cavern of souls....those are about the only ones I can see that were vintage warping (that caused meta shifts and spawned/spurred archetypes/strategies) ever since onslaught - and that was ages ago.  We get a few nuggets sprinkled in (thalia, ooze, cavern, leylines, grafdiggers) that are solid, but not the power level most are hoping for.  The days of Urza block riddled with vintage bombs are gone.  Hope for a couple vintage "playables" in each set and very rarely expect one "bomb" to slip through.  Bemoaning that new cards aren't tinker-level good is silly.  People said Jace was trash at one point too, and he warped the format.  Give cards a chance to suck before declaring them so, and comparing them to the broken of years past does no good either.

You're never going to see a card of this power level that is good unconditionally at every stage of the game.  Get over it.

[fsecco]

what he just said

Totally agree. Now, I really think we should be discussing Dig Through Time over Treasure Cruise. I think it's way, way better - the only downside being UU in it's casting cost. Am I completely wrong? I can't think of a single deck besides Dredge that would prefer Cruise over Dig...

[Protoaddict]

I could see a deck that wanted just pure draw at the cheapest price possible wanting cruse over Dig, but I'm not sure that exists in the format. Like for instance what if counterburn was a thing? That could easily fill the yard with fetches, bolts, counters, fireblasts and mountains and then want a new hand asap. Sure it would probably use wheel of fortune but that just powers this.

Alternately what about stuff like burning long. The side effect of some of the wheel effects is that they fill your yard very rapidly? Could this fit there?

[fsecco]

I think this would be much better than Dig if it was an instant. Dig being an instant is actually what makes it great, I think. It can even "dodge" graveyard hate by casting in response to removal.

[Aaron Patten]

But on a serious note, why would you pay 1G for an Ancestral Recall when you could pay 1G for a Yawgmoth's Bargain?

I have no serious answer to that serious question.  I can only refer you to the aforementioned "YOLO"

I have built many snap oath lists since Snapcaster Mage was printed.  These lists were very similar to Witness Oath lists I was experimenting with prior to it's printing and the question of which is better is non-trivial and meta-specific.  I think it would be viable were it not for the fact that it is very easy to hate out with most sideboards that people are packing presently due to dredge.  Maybe someday there will be a meta that will make it a more appealing option.  Never having any dead draws in a deck that runs 4 oath of druids is really fun and the sacrifice of not having a 7/7 flying, lifelink bargain can be compensated for by the Snapcaster Mage's interactions with Cabal Therapy, Time Walk, and Yawgmoth's Will.  The snaps also help resolve oath by recurring Ancestral Recall, Mental Misstep, and Flusterstorm(Not to mention Cabal Therapy) prior to the resolution of Oath.  The 1/1 spirit tokens become more important when you're not running giant flying lifelink creatures though, so that is something to keep in mind.  Perhaps later I will post a list.

I think Treasure Cruise is quite solid and would expect it to see play in decks that are not on the dark confidant plan and don't run too many Snapcaster Mages (more than two).  It can be thought of as a sorcery speed ancestral with threshold that usually takes threshold away.  Running more than 1 would be dangerous though since exiling 7 the first time you cast would make casting it the second time a bit more difficult.  The point I'm trying to make by modeling it this way is that Threshold is relatively easy to accomplish in Vintage.  I'm therefore confident this card will see plenty of play.  

Dig Through Time has the same converted mana cost as an instant and a better effect almost every time so yes, it's better, but for double blue.  This eliminates its potential as a second ancestral.  I would expect dig to see play as a one of in many drain based decks that don't run confidant and don't rely too heavily on their Snapcaster Mages.  The reason I associate that card with drain is that drain decks are going to pass with 2 blue untapped and can benefit from something instant speed to do with that mana if drain was not optimal that turn or didn't have a target at all.  It can also use up drain mana making it even easier to cast in that archetype. 

There are several other delve cards in this set that I think will see play in Vintage and legacy.  fsecco mentioned that they would like to see a Hurkyl's Recall with delve and I think it's worth pointing out that there is a potentially-1-mana sorcery that puts any non-land permanent on top of it's owner's library in Set Adrift.  This is relevant vs sphere effects and also dodges chalice.  It only requires 5 cards to be removed and is thus easier to include as a more-than-one of than treasure cruise.  There is also Merderous Cut which will almost always be able to kill a golem given adequate fetchland/other gy support in the early game.  Snuff Out already sees play against shops to kill golems through sphere effects, and rightly so, but the fact that these delve cards can pay for opposing sphere effects could matter a great deal.  Combining these two shows another advantage of delve vs golems in that free spells, if they make it to the yard, will now help you cast your delve cards through spheres.  I am looking forward to seeing more delve in the coming sets of this block.  I hope I will not be disappointed.  It is a fairly balanced mechanic that solves many problems for many vintage matchups and could balance out several archetypes in a way that leads to more interactive and thus more interesting gameplay.  

[fsecco]

There are several other delve cards in this set that I think will see play in Vintage and legacy.  fsecco mentioned that they would like to see a Hurkyl's Recall with delve and I think it's worth pointing out that there is a potentially-1-mana sorcery that puts any non-land permanent on top of it's owner's library which will be relevant vs sphere effects and also dodges chalice.  It only requires 5 cards to be removed and is thus easier to include as a more-than-one of.

I actually got excited about Set Adrift (the delve bounce spell) until I read the word "sorcery". The fact that it's a sorcery kills the whole thing... I find it quite unplayable. I still hope for a Rebuild-like card with delve.

Murderous Cut, on the other hand, I like a lot.

[brianpk80]

I am looking forward to seeing more delve in the coming sets of this block.  I hope I will not be disappointed.  It is a fairly balanced mechanic that solves many problems for many vintage matchups and could balance out several archetypes in a way that leads to more interactive and thus more interesting gameplay.  

I agree.  Your post was excellent.

[gkraigher]

I've been really disappointed with these, and all the delve cards they printed in the set.  Sorry, they played it way to safe and these cards simply aren't good enough. 

[MaximumCDawg]

Did you test em?