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Author Topic: Red/Black Aggro-Control AkA...Ballin' on a budget  (Read 7703 times)
p3temangus
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« on: December 15, 2014, 11:52:16 am »

Hello TMD'ers! Just some quick background before I dive into my deck list and card choices.  I was an avid vintage player  starting around Odyessy block, and I ultimately sold my collection back in 2006 before I departed for College, foolishly thinking that several thousand dollars and an excuse not to spend all day Saturday in a comic shop was more valuable than a box of pretty cardboard (boy was that a mistake...).  Anyway, some of you LI locals may remember me, my name is Pete, I was a regular at Comic Book Depot (I came for the Magic, stayed for the Chinese Food..), Tri County Flea Market, and made the occasional appearance at Mark's in Valley Stream.  Back then I played everything from TPS, to Tog, to Long variants.  I have been itching to get back into the game again, but unlike my first go around where I was able to purchase 5 moxen for under $2000, I need to do so this time on a serious budget.  Without Further Ado, I present...Ballin' on a Budget, my take on R/B Aggro Control:

Land/Mana Sources (27):
4 Badlands
4 Swamp
4 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby

Creatures/Tempo (14):
4 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
2 Young Pyromancer

Spells (19):
1 Necropotence
4 Planar Void
4 Lightening Bolt
4 Pyroblast/REB
1 Echoing Ruin
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Fling
2 Diabolic Edict

Sideboard (Totally Flexible)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Extripate
3 Gate to Phyrexia
1 Echoing Ruin
1 Shattering Spree
3 Chains of Mestopheles

Now for some discussion on my card choices...
27 Land/Mana Sources:
In the past I have always thought that for an aggro-control type deck 27 is a solid amount (including Ritual and Simian). Perhaps I am out of date on this idea, is 16 lands + lotus/Jet/Ruby to few "hard" mana sources?  In my limited testing I have never found myself Color Screwed...It's hard to be mana screwed overall when the only 3 CC spells in the deck are Necro and R&R.

Creatures Choices:
Bitterblossom: I count this as "creatures" for obvious reasons...dropping this on turn one is a fantastic play, and if you manage to get down more than one the effect is cumulative.  They Fly, and can block any non-trampler indefinitely, and (if i understand the rules correctly, so please stop me if I am wrong) I can throw them at a Planeswalker, making them great for taking out a Jace. 

Dark Confidant: Obvious addition, this Deck has 0 Card Draw and with an average CC of (estimate) 1.7ish, I don't really need to fear killing myself. 

Nantuko Shade: Am i stuck in 2003...AM I!?  In all seriousness, I love this card.  It's pump ability helps it avoid opposing bolts, and if left unchecked it can do some serious damage.  It would take alot to talk me out of 4 of these, I have seriously been looking for a spot to add a Cabal Coffers just to fuel Shade.  It also has GREAT synergy with Fling. A late game pump+fling can win games, and an early game pump, swing, fling can really put opponents in an deep hole

2 Young Pyromancer: These are the 2 spots I am most torn over. Young Pyromancer certainly seems to be the prom queen as of late, and the benefits are certainly clear (turn 1 drop, followed by rituals, bolts, Pyro's/Rebs creating tokens) but as I am not sure if this deck is really the correct vessel for this card.  I will discuss some of the alternatives I have thought of for this slot below.

Spells:
Necro: No explanation needed

Planar Void: Actually surprised I do not see this card in more lists, for 1 Mana, you shut off Delve, Dredge, Welder, Snapcaster Yag Will ect...Although I have not actually had this experience, I'd suspect that turn 1 resolved planar void against dredge may lead to a scoop depending on the list.  Also, you just play these as they appear in your hand, as their is no real downside to having multiple on the board (echoing truth maybe, but having 2 bounced is the same as 1 for the sake of the result of losing the effect). 

Lightening Bolt: Clears the way, Damage to the head, all for one Red.  Can be played on the draw thanks to Simian. Seeing the prevalence of this today, it's amazing to me that this didn't find its way into lists 10 years ago. 

Pyroblast/REB:  Very similar as bolt (save the damage of course), clears the way of anything blue, counters FoW, Drain, ect and can be played on the draw thanks to Simian.

Echoing Ruin & R&R: This deck simply needs a way to deal with workshops, and REALLY needs a way to deal with Chalice.  As you can see, Chalice for 2 is just about the end for me if I cannot Find R&R

Fling: Another "questionable" card choice.  I like its synergy with Shade as i described above, and it can be used to throw a Bob late game if I find myself worried about my life total...this could be cut pending further testing. 

Diabolic Edict: Essentially all I have to stop Oath, Blightsteel, and other large annoying creatures that may show up..Once again, maybe this slot can be something else.

Cards that did not make the cut (so far):
Thoughtseize/Durress:  Thoughtseize does not stop a resolved blue spell, which is why it lost out to Pyro.  COULD this be included if I were to cut down on Fling's/Shades? Sure, But I feel that the threat density in this deck is high enough that I am not SO worried about clearing the way first.  I have these in my board for the control matchup at this time.

Jitte:  This is the card I most want to include (aside from cabal Coffers...), and think its likely that If i were to cut fling, this would make the list fast, as it can move from token to token very easily. 

Demonic/Vamp: I would include Vamp first because of its 1CC, and if for no other reason but to find edict/Artifact removal. 

Thanks for reading! Any/All comments criticism is welcome!
 







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msg67183
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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2014, 12:31:06 pm »

Cards that are missing that I feel need to be in here:

Ingot Chewer- you are playing red. It's the best anti Shop card
Liliana of the Veil- it's the best black Planeswalker in vintage
Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor- it's a given to play tutors when you play black


I threw together a RB deck a few years ago that played a bunch of combos in a single deck.

It had Painter's Servant Grindstone, Leyline of the Void Helm of Obedience as well as a Tendrils. Just an idea for you.
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2014, 01:44:24 pm »

I agree on demonic tutor and probably demonic consultation. Not sure about vampiric. I would play Planar Void in side board as it cuts you out of using Yawgmoths Will which is nuts in general and more so with a Young Pyromancer in play. I would run skullclamp over fling as it works with all your dudes can turn a bob thats killing you into two cards and is a sick draw engine on blossom tokens and Young P tokens. If you simply dropped the four Planar Void to the side and added two clamp Yawg Will and one Tendrils your deck would be a lot better Im betting. I personally would drop the four Shade as well for the three tutors (demonic Vamp and Consult) and a third Young P. This allows you to still run aggro with tokens still control with blasts and bolts and be combo if needed with Clamp Y Will and tendrils while still staying a budget deck. However you choose to do it have fun and good luck Smile
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Mr. Scragglesworthington
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2014, 02:59:07 pm »

I like the deck idea!  R/B is a superfun color combo.

If you want to be more competitive, I'd consider the following changes:

- Grafdiggers cage is probably better than planar void for maindeck hate, as it hits Oath as well as dredge.

- Thoughtseizes should be maindeck.

- 4x Moon Magus are made for this decktype.
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p3temangus
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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2014, 04:28:00 pm »

Quote
Cards that are missing that I feel need to be in here:

Ingot Chewer- you are playing red. It's the best anti Shop card
Liliana of the Veil- it's the best black Planeswalker in vintage
Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor- it's a given to play tutors when you play black

Ingot Chewer...See these are the obvious cards you miss when you are are only stalking the format from the shadows for nearly a decade.  Thanks!

Quote
I like the deck idea!  R/B is a superfun color combo.

If you want to be more competitive, I'd consider the following changes:

- Grafdiggers cage is probably better than planar void for maindeck hate, as it hits Oath as well as dredge.

- Thoughtseizes should be maindeck.

- 4x Moon Magus are made for this decktype.

I like Grafdiggers Cage for a SB option vs Oath, but explain to me why Planar Void isn't fundamentally better in a deck that has no Graveyard manipulation? In the lists I review, I see far more artifact removal than enchantment removal, and should Planar void be removed, the cards are still removed from the game.  Once Cage is gone, you can resume Snapcasting, welding, Dredging, Delving ect...I understand that while it is on the board it essentially serves the same functional purpose +stops oath, but the impact of Void remains even if it is removed/destroyed.

Magus of the Moon is interesting to me, but would you cut badlands into 2 swamp/mountain just to avoid color screwing yourself?
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WhiteLotus
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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2014, 08:11:35 pm »

I dont understand why you are not splashing green for Goyf, decay, grudge, and shaman?

Consider something like this:

Vintage Jund
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Swamp
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Thoughtseize
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Mental Misstep
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf/Young Pyromancer
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Liliana of the veil
1 Null rod
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

SB: 2 slice and dice
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 4 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze

This list has a lot more disruptive cards vs the top tier meta (Shops, oath, Delver) and still pretty strong vs drains, Dredge and Storm decks. It's a very tempo oriented list and it has all the best answers in the format and high redundancy.
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2014, 10:03:25 pm »

I'm guessing because he's on a budget and 4x tarm is about a grand now. The extra moxen is also probably out of the question.

Magus of the moon is a must for a deck like this.  Shade is too 1990s.  There are thousands of better options now.  Fling is also way outdated and is a bad card in general.  If you want to be cute, try blightning instead of fling.  Still, that's Timmy and not competitive. 

Skullclamp is a solid idea in that deck.  Shattering spree is also probably better than R&R too.
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2014, 10:59:39 pm »

Yes if you must keep planar void at least drop the two fling for two skullclamp. They are just too good with blossom and young p and like i said can turn a death row bob into two cards.
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p3temangus
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« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2014, 08:47:23 am »

OK, I can admit that Shade+Fling is a stretch at best for competitive Vintage.  Skullclamp is another obvious choice...have not thought about that card since it was banned in Mirrodin Block.  Below is an updated list:

Land/Mana Sources (27):
6 Swamp
6 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby

Creatures/Tempo (15):
4 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Confidant
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Ingot Chewer

Spells (18):
1 Necropotence
2 Planar Void
4 Lightening Bolt
4 Pyroblast/REB
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Skullclamp
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (Totally Flexible)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Extripate
3 Gate to Phyrexia
1 Echoing Ruin
1 Shattering Spree
3 Chains of Mestopheles

I cut the Shades, Flings, artifact removal, 2 planar void and one of the Edicts for 2 skullclamp, Vampiric, 3 Magus of the moon, Yag will, Tendrils, Jitte and 2 Ingot Chewer.  I also dropped the badlands for +2 Swamp/Mountain, which I am not upset about as it really helps with the whole budget aspect of this deck.  Must also mention the price of Bob's are insane to me, I understand its played all over the place but $250+ for a set is wild. 
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« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2014, 09:49:09 am »

You could try to capitalize on token generation between BB and YP by adding Cabal Therapy.

Do you actually own Chains of Mephistopheles?  I'd consider playing them in the maindeck, I think they're that good in the current meta (although there's some disynergy with Skullclamp).
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« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2014, 10:09:29 am »

If you really want graveyard hate, and you probably should, try a couple of Nihil Spellbomb, they will get rid of the graveyard when needed and you even get your card back.

Removing Planar Void also allows you to run Grim Lavamancer if you ever need more creature control.

I agree that Skullclamp really works for this deck.

Dark Ritual really seems weak to me. Confidant first turn is amazing, but that's about it. Bitterblossom first turn is good, but not as good. If you keep the rituals, you really need 4 Thoughseize or Duress to use that extra mana.
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« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2014, 11:29:37 am »

I'd ditch the rituals so you can go all in on Pyromancer.  Ingot chewer is probably better served in your sideboard. Those combined open slots could be for the cabal therapies that this deck is begging for.

Your deck reminds me of Forino tendrils, from back in the day:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15&d=101652
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« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2014, 12:37:39 pm »

just cut the rituals for mental missteps imo.
between that and either thoughtsieze or cabal therapy you'll be far more disruptive
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p3temangus
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« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2014, 12:53:51 pm »

Interesting notion to bail on Ritual...without ritual should I not also be removing Necro, Yag will and Tendrils, none of which seems as broken without ritual?  My only Yag will-able mana acceleration would be lotus, and although Necro at any time (as long as you have the life to make use of it) is great, having it in my opening hand with 0 way to accelerate it out is a waste. 

I like the idea of 2 for 1 sorcery for Pyromancer with Cabal Therapy, but the net tokens is still 1 (get a token, sac a token, get a token)

in that situation, I would go...
-4 ritual
-1 Yag will
-1 Necro
-2 Planar

+4 Cabal Therapy
+2 Pyromancer
+2 Nihil Spellbomb?

Has anyone actually had to play delver or any deck with snapcaster against a turn one Planar Void? Tokens can block Trygon infinitely, and with no abrupt decay main board is there an answer?
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« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2014, 01:13:27 pm »

Interesting notion to bail on Ritual...without ritual should I not also be removing Necro, Yag will and Tendrils, none of which seems as broken without ritual?  My only Yag will-able mana acceleration would be lotus, and although Necro at any time (as long as you have the life to make use of it) is great, having it in my opening hand with 0 way to accelerate it out is a waste. 

I like the idea of 2 for 1 sorcery for Pyromancer with Cabal Therapy, but the net tokens is still 1 (get a token, sac a token, get a token)

in that situation, I would go...
-4 ritual
-1 Yag will
-1 Necro
-2 Planar

+4 Cabal Therapy
+2 Pyromancer
+2 Nihil Spellbomb?

Has anyone actually had to play delver or any deck with snapcaster against a turn one Planar Void? Tokens can block Trygon infinitely, and with no abrupt decay main board is there an answer?


How can tokens block Trygon? They do not have flying.
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p3temangus
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« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2014, 01:21:56 pm »

Bitterblossom tokens fly
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« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2014, 01:24:59 pm »

Bitterblossom tokens fly

Oh right. Forgot about BB. To be honest I feel a Jund list with Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, and other strong hate cards would be more sufficient. I don't think Goyf is needed like an earlier poster stated. I have honestly never been a fan of goyf in vintage anyway as it's just a big beater, you can play it then your opponent just kills you.
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« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2014, 02:00:14 pm »

Has anyone actually had to play delver or any deck with snapcaster against a turn one Planar Void? Tokens can block Trygon infinitely, and with no abrupt decay main board is there an answer?

Do remember that Planar Void is a trigger, so you can still play Recall/Bolt/cheap instant, with trigger on the stack play Snapcaster and flashback your spell. This also applies to Welder, Bomberman and a few other cases.
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« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2014, 03:49:52 am »

Interesting notion to bail on Ritual...without ritual should I not also be removing Necro, Yag will and Tendrils, none of which seems as broken without ritual?  My only Yag will-able mana acceleration would be lotus, and although Necro at any time (as long as you have the life to make use of it) is great, having it in my opening hand with 0 way to accelerate it out is a waste. 

I like the idea of 2 for 1 sorcery for Pyromancer with Cabal Therapy, but the net tokens is still 1 (get a token, sac a token, get a token)

in that situation, I would go...
-4 ritual
-1 Yag will
-1 Necro
-2 Planar

+4 Cabal Therapy
+2 Pyromancer
+2 Nihil Spellbomb?

Has anyone actually had to play delver or any deck with snapcaster against a turn one Planar Void? Tokens can block Trygon infinitely, and with no abrupt decay main board is there an answer?

Its not like Delver has to answer planar void you are actually doing your self disservice by not focussing on what is important, the only way planar void is going to be good is if you manage to keep them at parity with one for one trades while they no longer have the possibility to cruise to ignore that strategy.

If you really want a permanent to give them trouble I think Chains of mephistopheles is 1000x better since it basically shuts their entire deck down (no more preordain, brainstorm, ponder, gush, dack, ancestral and cruise which represent  13-15 slots in your average delver list)  Meanwhile you have the ability to outdraw them with Bob. This actually seems like the only way your deck is going to beat delver outside of variance.

Bitterblossom tokens fly

Oh right. Forgot about BB. To be honest I feel a Jund list with Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, and other strong hate cards would be more sufficient. I don't think Goyf is needed like an earlier poster stated. I have honestly never been a fan of goyf in vintage anyway as it's just a big beater, you can play it then your opponent just kills you.
How is pyromancer better than goyf vs a combo kill? Goyf is reliable and doesn't require any of your attention to do his thing, he is also far more resilient than pyromancer vs fire/ice, bolt and cards like toxic deluge/Slice and dice/Inferno Titan.

I also think Goyf makes more sense because this kind of deck will never have the velocity delver builds have that makes pyromancer so good there. This deck should be a lot closer to Bug fish or merfolks than Delver imo.
It can't play 27 mana sources, it needs to operate on a very efficient mana curve and be very redundant in disruptive effects if it's going to win a single match in the current metagame. Dark ritual is barely good enough for storm decks that are designed to abuse it, I don't see how it's viable here. Necropotence, tendrils and ywill are just completely out of place imo, the deck can't really leverage those cards into a quick win. Either you want to build a Disruptive Fish style deck, either you want to build a focused combo deck, but both do not mix well as they are completly different strategies with very different tactics.

Bitterblossom is cute but it seems way to slow for vintage and with all the pyromancer hate floating around, it's probably pretty bad.

Magus of the moon seems just worse than blood moon when most spot removal that currently sees play kills it and cost red mana. It also seems very slow and your deck can't even cavern it into play.

Planar void seems meh. Doesn't seem like delver will really need cruise to beat you and is probably happy that you are playing that instead of abrupt decays and missteps. Dredge has so many ways to deal with it(misstep, Unmask, nature's claim, wispmare, Chain of vapor) it's not even funny. Broken decks have lots of other ways to kill you that you have almost no way of interacting with that planar void will be pretty much irrelevant. Even if you wanted this kind of effect there are probably a million cards better to fill that role (see Nihil Spellbomb, Relic of progenitus, Deathrite shaman).

Skullclamp seems pretty situational (Ie close to Dead without pyromancer), you probably won't have the mana available to abuse it most of the time, and it's not like your deck is going to go insane with clamp and pyromancer and generate tokens and Card advantage at the same time.

You need to add a lot more removal imo, right now your deck looses to about any deck I can think of. It's slower than pretty much anything else and has almost no way of interacting with the opponent, the only decks that can be light on interaction in vintage are turn 2 decks like Ritual Storm or Dredge that instead opt for imposing their own gameplan which is to force the opponent to interact with them or loose due to their relentless brokenness.

How does your deck NOT play Grafdigger's cage ???

I think you should take the deck I posted earlier in the thread as a starting base. There are a lot of flex slots so you can easily swap goyf for pyromancer and add Cabal therapy + probe to support it if you don't like goyf.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 04:13:18 am by WhiteLotus » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2014, 04:48:50 am »

Interesting notion to bail on Ritual...without ritual should I not also be removing Necro, Yag will and Tendrils, none of which seems as broken without ritual?  My only Yag will-able mana acceleration would be lotus, and although Necro at any time (as long as you have the life to make use of it) is great, having it in my opening hand with 0 way to accelerate it out is a waste. 

I like the idea of 2 for 1 sorcery for Pyromancer with Cabal Therapy, but the net tokens is still 1 (get a token, sac a token, get a token)

in that situation, I would go...
-4 ritual
-1 Yag will
-1 Necro
-2 Planar

+4 Cabal Therapy
+2 Pyromancer
+2 Nihil Spellbomb?

Has anyone actually had to play delver or any deck with snapcaster against a turn one Planar Void? Tokens can block Trygon infinitely, and with no abrupt decay main board is there an answer?

Its not like Delver has to answer planar void you are actually doing your self disservice by not focussing on what is important, the only way planar void is going to be good is if you manage to keep them at parity with one for one trades while they no longer have the possibility to cruise to ignore that strategy.

If you really want a permanent to give them trouble I think Chains of mephistopheles is 1000x better since it basically shuts their entire deck down (no more preordain, brainstorm, ponder, gush, dack, ancestral and cruise which represent  13-15 slots in your average delver list)  Meanwhile you have the ability to outdraw them with Bob. This actually seems like the only way your deck is going to beat delver outside of variance.

Bitterblossom tokens fly

Oh right. Forgot about BB. To be honest I feel a Jund list with Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, and other strong hate cards would be more sufficient. I don't think Goyf is needed like an earlier poster stated. I have honestly never been a fan of goyf in vintage anyway as it's just a big beater, you can play it then your opponent just kills you.
How is pyromancer better than goyf vs a combo kill? Goyf is reliable and doesn't require any of your attention to do his thing, he is also far more resilient than pyromancer vs fire/ice, bolt and cards like toxic deluge/Slice and dice/Inferno Titan.

I also think Goyf makes more sense because this kind of deck will never have the velocity delver builds have that makes pyromancer so good there. This deck should be a lot closer to Bug fish or merfolks than Delver imo.
It can't play 27 mana sources, it needs to operate on a very efficient mana curve and be very redundant in disruptive effects if it's going to win a single match in the current metagame. Dark ritual is barely good enough for storm decks that are designed to abuse it, I don't see how it's viable here. Necropotence, tendrils and ywill are just completely out of place imo, the deck can't really leverage those cards into a quick win. Either you want to build a Disruptive Fish style deck, either you want to build a focused combo deck, but both do not mix well as they are completly different strategies with very different tactics.

Bitterblossom is cute but it seems way to slow for vintage and with all the pyromancer hate floating around, it's probably pretty bad.

Magus of the moon seems just worse than blood moon when most spot removal that currently sees play kills it and cost red mana. It also seems very slow and your deck can't even cavern it into play.

Planar void seems meh. Doesn't seem like delver will really need cruise to beat you and is probably happy that you are playing that instead of abrupt decays and missteps. Dredge has so many ways to deal with it(misstep, Unmask, nature's claim, wispmare, Chain of vapor) it's not even funny. Broken decks have lots of other ways to kill you that you have almost no way of interacting with that planar void will be pretty much irrelevant. Even if you wanted this kind of effect there are probably a million cards better to fill that role (see Nihil Spellbomb, Relic of progenitus, Deathrite shaman).

Skullclamp seems pretty situational (Ie close to Dead without pyromancer), you probably won't have the mana available to abuse it most of the time, and it's not like your deck is going to go insane with clamp and pyromancer and generate tokens and Card advantage at the same time.

You need to add a lot more removal imo, right now your deck looses to about any deck I can think of. It's slower than pretty much anything else and has almost no way of interacting with the opponent, the only decks that can be light on interaction in vintage are turn 2 decks like Ritual Storm or Dredge that instead opt for imposing their own gameplan which is to force the opponent to interact with them or loose due to their relentless brokenness.

How does your deck NOT play Grafdigger's cage ???

I think you should take the deck I posted earlier in the thread as a starting base. There are a lot of flex slots so you can easily swap goyf for pyromancer and add Cabal therapy + probe to support it if you don't like goyf.


I NEVER said play Pyromancer over Goyf, I simply said I'm not a fan of Goyf in Vintage. I'd rather see other disruptive creatures played in those slots like Scavenging Ooze, Reclamation Sage, Etc.
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WhiteLotus
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« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2014, 05:18:55 am »

Quote from: msg67183

I NEVER said play Pyromancer over Goyf, I simply said I'm not a fan of Goyf in Vintage. I'd rather see other disruptive creatures played in those slots like Scavenging Ooze, Reclamation Sage, Etc.

Yeah of course disruptive creatures are needed, but I think you still want a creature that beats down efficiently to exploit the tempo you create with your disruption. In the list I proposed DRS and ooze are meant to be disruptive, Dark confidant is the draw engine and Goyf is the actual threat that ends the game.
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« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2014, 11:10:31 am »

I don't think Goyf is needed like an earlier poster stated. I have honestly never been a fan of goyf in vintage anyway as it's just a big beater, you can play it then your opponent just kills you.

What? By that logic people wouldn't just not play Pyromancer or Bob in Vintage, they wouldn't play Oath of Druids. Goyf fills the same role as pyromancer, and it can do it very well. It is even better than pyromancer in many situations.
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« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2014, 05:43:26 pm »

In order to make the deck competitive you have to rely on the strengths that Red and Black have going for them.  There are basically two directions I've seen work in the past in Vintage:

Combo
I can't find anything that integrates the two colors well, but there are mono colored combo builds, where you could take the best pieces of both and combine:
Black Based: (AKA Dark Times):
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40947.0

Leyline+Helm, Hexmage+Dark Depths, and Dark Ritual+Yawgmoth's Will+Tendrils are the big combos in this one, supported further by all of the good tutors in black.

Red Based (AKA Mono Red Painter):
(Half way down this page, look for a deck by Greolin (Sean Duffy)) http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41360.msg633351#msg633351

This is basically exploiting Painter's Servant.  He wins you the game with Grindstone, does crazy amounts of damage with mindsparker, and turns your REBs/Pyros into answers for pretty much everything.

Prison
There are elements of this in both of the combo lists I've referenced, but there is also the option of not playing the combo just going with more prison cards.

Colorless cards:
Crucible+Strip/Waste, Null Rod, and Chalice of Void are all great prison cards in pretty much any deck.

Black based prison:
Here there are two directions discard effects, like hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, and liliana of the veil to put your opponent into top deck mode, and/or mana lock via Nether Void.  Then you'd have cards to gain incremental advantage after a lock is set up like Bitterblossom, Dark Confidant, ect.  (Samoht (Tom Dixon) just top 8'ed with a list like this a couple months ago, but I can't seem to find the report)

Red based prison:
This is something I've played rather extensively (including RB versions).  You are essentially trying to lock your opponent out of colored mana via an early blood moon and other mana denial cards.  Prophetic Flamespeaker is a pretty huge new option for this deck.

You can also look in the two threads I posted above for more ideas, dark times thread and the mountains win again thread.


As for some of the other suggestions I'm seeing:
The title of this threat is RB on a budget.  So what card is the absolute furthest from meeting these requirements? Tarmogoyf.  Not castable with R or B lands? Check.  One of the most expensive cards in all of magic? Check.

Also Pyromancer is just plain awful in RB.  The latest deck list he posted is running 12 instants/sorceries, and a total of 0 of them draw cards.  Maximum you are getting 2 tokens.
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