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Meddling Mike
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« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2014, 08:12:16 am » |
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I guess the question I have for a card like this is if you hit the situation where you're making a ton of mana with Metalworker isn't it better just to play Staff of Domination? I know it's vulnerable to artifact removal, but if they had an Ancient Grudge or Ingot Chewer or whatever they probably would have used it on your Metalworker before you could use it anyways. I know not being an artifact let's this card dodge some hate, but I'm not sure that's enough.
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Meddling Mike posts so loudly that nobody can get a post in edgewise.
Team TMD - If you feel that team secrecy is bad for Vintage put this in your signature
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ELD
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Eric Dupuis
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« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2014, 09:03:03 am » |
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Looks like a slam dunk for Legacy 12 post. Not seeing the vintage applications.
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Twaun007
Adepts
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For eight hundred years have I trained Jedi.
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« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2014, 11:35:16 am » |
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Looks like a slam dunk for Legacy 12 post. Not seeing the vintage applications.
That's because no one has unleashed Vintage 12 post yet. |
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evouga
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« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2014, 11:44:31 am » |
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In which top-tier matchup does this card shine? Against dredge and shops it is useless. Against Oath it is trumped by an active Gristelbrand, but at least if you get Ugin out first it's hard to lose the game. Against cruise decks it's great... *if* it resolves. This leads me to agree that its home will be a heavy Drain control deck, if anywhere.
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nedleeds
Tournament Organizers
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« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2014, 12:56:37 pm » |
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The CMC of Treasure Cruise is 8 right? Here I've been mana draining cruises and casting crap like Jace.
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serracollector
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« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2014, 01:42:47 pm » |
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Im agreeing with turbotezz with four main deck Drains and Grim Monolith and maybe ancient tombs. Shouldnt be too hard to cast him off a drain plus a grim and key or tezz plus two grims etc.
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B/R discussions are not allowed outside of Vintage Issues, and that includes signatures.
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benk499
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« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2014, 04:46:49 pm » |
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> How bout this as a test, for 8 mana is this card better than Sundering Titan or Platinum Emperion? Keep in mind both of those are artifacts that power themselves out with metal worker, work better with Lightning greaves or volt key which you will likely be using in that list, and likely work better with sphere effects that you could run with them.
Also keep in mind that since it's not an artifact you can't cast it with Mishra's Workshop or fetch it with a Forgemaster. It also doesn't get under Thorns of Amethyst.
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enderfall
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« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2015, 11:18:56 pm » |
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If we learned anything from Karn Liberated it's that Metalworker is a poor accelerant to cast 7+ colorless mana 'Walkers. Workshop can't cast Karn (or Ugin) and Karn (or Ugin) don't help power up Metalworker. Throw in the plethora of creature removal out there and Metalworker is just a poor card to be used to cast Karn (or Ugin). Lightning Greaves (giving haste and/or shroud) makes things all the more difficult because it takes yet another artifact out of your hand (in a deck that lacks draw, no less) and is such a bad tempo play if they Bolt/StP the Metalworker in response to the equip. Workshop decks should just stick to what they do best: Prison. Staff of Domination is a better card to pair with Metalworker.
Ugin is a powerful card and his power level is easily Vintage playable. If it is going to find a home I believe it'll be in a Drain Control deck where draining any spell provides maximal value (Treasure Cruise can result in casting Ugin for "free"), whereas Jace still costs 2 mana off a Drained Jace or similar large mana spell. Probably only a 1-of though... Tezz (or Jace) is still going to be the primary win condition if people are going to cast a "Walker. Grim Monolith heavy "Tezz" decks seem interesting though!
It's a shame it only affects colored permanents though since so much of the Vintage meta is a deck that plays (almost) no colored permanents and it isn't too effective against Combo unless they have Necro and/or Fastbond, etc. in play. Still, sweeping the board against Delver and many other decks is really game changing. I hope Ugin ends up seeing Vintage play as it would offer a new choice in deckbuilding.
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bactgudz
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« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2015, 09:20:32 am » |
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Maybe as an alternate line in a Drain based painter-stone deck. Landing Ugin with Painter on the board is nutz.
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Protoaddict
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« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2015, 11:16:50 am » |
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Ugin is a powerful card and his power level is easily Vintage playable. If it is going to find a home I believe it'll be in a Drain Control deck where draining any spell provides maximal value (Treasure Cruise can result in casting Ugin for "free"), whereas Jace still costs 2 mana off a Drained Jace or similar large mana spell. Probably only a 1-of though... Tezz (or Jace) is still going to be the primary win condition if people are going to cast a "Walker. Grim Monolith heavy "Tezz" decks seem interesting though!
Is Ugin better in that scenario than Karn? Karn is always one mana cheaper, ultimates just as fast, has to very relevant abilities, the first of which may be more relevant for Drain control than Ugins first, and is still likely just a one of in the exact same spot. |
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enderfall
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« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2015, 11:29:11 am » |
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Ugin is a powerful card and his power level is easily Vintage playable. If it is going to find a home I believe it'll be in a Drain Control deck where draining any spell provides maximal value (Treasure Cruise can result in casting Ugin for "free"), whereas Jace still costs 2 mana off a Drained Jace or similar large mana spell. Probably only a 1-of though... Tezz (or Jace) is still going to be the primary win condition if people are going to cast a "Walker. Grim Monolith heavy "Tezz" decks seem interesting though!
Is Ugin better in that scenario than Karn? Karn is always one mana cheaper, ultimates just as fast, has to very relevant abilities, the first of which may be more relevant for Drain control than Ugins first, and is still likely just a one of in the exact same spot. I'd argue sweeping the board is far more important much more often than exiling a single permanent or exiling a card from your opponents hand. Karn's +4 ability is OK, but your opponent gets to choose the card, which is usually the least impactful for them and worse than just a single Thoughtsieze. If they have a couple of creatures out with more than 4 power, the +4 of Karn is much less effective and the -3 ability only gets rid of 1 creature (or problem card). Sweeping with Ugin can help reset the board while it's + ability is more relevant as it affects the board state while building towards the ultimate. |
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mmcgeach
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« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2015, 11:40:28 am » |
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Maybe as an alternate line in a Drain based painter-stone deck. Landing Ugin with Painter on the board is nutz.
That's do-able. But painter is ... not the best deck. I mean, the meta could shift and it could get better. Still, blowing away all the land and mana artifacts using Ugin's -1, leaving you with just Ugin seems like a win. Lol. Maybe a better win con than grindstone in a painter build.  |
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sirgog
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« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2015, 04:40:11 am » |
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Messing around with Ugin, I'm finding Mana Drain on a Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time happens enough that he is viable in those decks that want 4 drain (although I feel Kozilek is usually a slightly stronger play in those situations).
Still not impressed with any decks I have experimented with him in.
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