Monastery Mentor

[Chubby Rain]

Seriously, this guy is nuts.

+1

[WhiteLotus]

It seems like a lot of people are underestimating this card, this guy is completely Bonkers. Pyromancer is cheaper of one mana (but ironically casting YP in delver is roughly  about as mana intensive as casting jace in a drain deck because of the limited accelerants anyway). But this card has a true combo mode vs pyromancer (which isn't really faster than goyf to begin with). I did a bit of testing with it and this seems to me like your psychatog where pyromancer is your quirion dryad (they are not even close in terms of powerlevel and role flexibility).

This can also attack through opposing armies way easier, making it about who cast his guy first in the mirror. It's a lot more resilient to most pyromancer trumps (pyroclasm, slice and dice, Night of soul's betrayal) and can be quite tricky vs Toxic deluge. It will almost never take more than 2 attack phases to win the game, and if dealt with the tokens left behind are still virtual monastery swiftspears instead of vanilla 1/1s. This card has outclassed Talrand for ever were it was not as ubiquitous with pyromancer. This maxes out on your "storm triggers" by growing horizontally and vertically at the same time and it triggers off stuff like moxen fastbond or pwalkers, which are both strict upgrades to anything that has already been printed.

I think we are possibly going to see a migration from delver shells to Gushbond shells/ white with 3 of these and one tendrils as wincons. Since the gushbond shell is a lot more likely to be able to cast this guy than delver is and is going to be able to abuse it like crazy.
The only weakness I see for this guy is vs shops where the prowess is not going to be nearly as relevant and the one mana different in cmc is going to be like the difference between hurkyl's recall and rebuild. But for any non shop matchup this is a lot better than young pyromancer imo.

I expect this card to push blue decks to go even more "hardcore blue" while shops nicely preys on everyone. I just hope the meta doesn't completely devolve into Monastery variants vs shops and oath.

But make no mistake, this guy is definitely going to shake things up.

[sirgog]

I certainly have high hopes for this card.

If you spend 3 mana on a creature in Vintage, you want it to seal the game quickly if you are stable or ahead, and put you back into a game where you are behind.

This card does both, assuming you do not already have an empty hand. It just kills so fast, especially if you do any chaining of cantrips, and at the same time shuts down creature-based attacks including Blightsteel Colossus.

[Demagoguery]

I think we are possibly going to see a migration from delver shells to Gushbond shells/ white with 3 of these and one tendrils as wincons. Since the gushbond shell is a lot more likely to be able to cast this guy than delver is and is going to be able to abuse it like crazy.

While I agree that this card isn't good for Delver, I don't think it will make Delver bad in itself. Delver will continue to be a solid deck in my opinion, but we'll see more non-Delver lists that use this and Pyromancer as their win conditions, potentially even cutting Tendrils. The issue with Pyromancer Gushbond decks currently is that they have 4 cards with the effect, and it has to be in play to benefit from all the spells being cast. Giving them the ability to go up to 8 means they can more consistently have their win condition and go off, without having to exhaust so many resources looking for their win condition in addition to ways of stabilizing the game against certain decks.

The only weakness I see for this guy is vs shops where the prowess is not going to be nearly as relevant and the one mana different in cmc is going to be like the difference between hurkyl's recall and rebuild. But for any non shop matchup this is a lot better than young pyromancer imo.

Well I don't know how true this is, since this guy allows you to run Hurkyl's more reliably as it can just be used to produce a bunch of tokens, trigger Prowess, or some combination of the two once the game goes late enough, while also just being solid against shops. This means that decks that include this guy have the ability to include Hurkyl's in the main and side a lot more readily than they do currently since without him it's pretty awkward against Delver.

The other benefit this guy has over Pyromancer when it comes to fighting Shops is that he promotes the use of artifact mana for you, since each Mox in the mid to late game becomes a land that triggers this guys token and Prowess abilities, while also helping the tokens after he's dead. Yes this means there's a chance for random Chalice blow outs, but it also means things like Lodestone and even basic Spheres are less of an issue since you have a lot more methods of deploying mana despite them.

So while this guy has a higher cost, which makes him harder to resolve, he also has a lot of built in methods that promote play that's generally good against Shops when it comes to deck construction.   

I expect this card to push blue decks to go even more "hardcore blue" while shops nicely preys on everyone. I just hope the meta doesn't completely devolve into Monastery variants vs shops and oath.

Aside from Dredge still being a thing, I don't think this guy will devolve the meta, but rather add to it. Delver can still a completely legitimate deck, even without this guy, since it plays a completely different game from him. We'll also see other decks that aren't on this guy because they're simply doing other things, as we see now with all the X City Vault lists (Although he's not bad in them).

[diopter]

Gushbond decks with 5 colors? (Yes, you'll need red for the Shops matchup)
I don't like to think about the mulligans on that one.

You don't need to storm out like crazy for this card to be insane. Bomberman's Moxen and Swords are probably enough to enable some serious shenanigans.

Three-color Delver is also an intriguing option.

My concerns are thus:
- YP is a cool threat against Shops. Mentor seems clunky in that matchup.
- Red has a lot of awesome tools like Dack, Pyroblast and Burning Wish. White has a lot of awesome hate, as well as the white Tinker, but not much to help you dig through your library.

It's kind of cool that YP is no longer the dominant option in the control mirror though.

[Hrishi]

White Tinker?

White does have plenty of options too, such as Disenchant, STP, Devout Witness and so on. It's certainly not as powerful as red is in this regard, of course, but it's something.

[enderfall]

White Tinker?

Maybe he means Stoneforge? Can't think of anything else...

[diopter]

Of course it's Stoneforge.

Re: white options - StP is amazing, all else is marginal. Vs shops, white can't match the power of Dack out of the maindeck or Ingot Chewer out of the SB. And you don't get to play with Burning Wish or Pyroblast (though SFM is a card that I always love to try to make work in Vintage).

There's nothing stopping you from running URW builds but one must recognize that going to four or five colors is risky. In a Gushbond shell, UGB is part of the core engine do you really must choose the fourth color that actually give you the best chance to win against the field. That is probably Red.

In Delver, UWR builds will be intriguing.

In Bomberman, the deck is ok tapping out for three drops but one must ask what tactical edge or matchup advantage you are gaining. I don't know the answer to that yet.

[vaughnbros]

White also has the best dredge/oath hate in containment priest, RiP, and a variety of disenchant effects.  It's a solid support color to blue.

[Stormanimagus]

Gushbond decks with 5 colors? (Yes, you'll need red for the Shops matchup)
I don't like to think about the mulligans on that one.

You don't need to storm out like crazy for this card to be insane. Bomberman's Moxen and Swords are probably enough to enable some serious shenanigans.

Three-color Delver is also an intriguing option.

My concerns are thus:
- YP is a cool threat against Shops. Mentor seems clunky in that matchup.
- Red has a lot of awesome tools like Dack, Pyroblast and Burning Wish. White has a lot of awesome hate, as well as the white Tinker, but not much to help you dig through your library.

It's kind of cool that YP is no longer the dominant option in the control mirror though.

I've been messing around with bant gush with 2-3 dig through time and 2 exploration in addition to f-bond (since I'm eschewing black and can't reliably tutor for f-bond) and it's been working out quite well. This guy takes so much advantage of incremental card advantage that you really don't need to be on the will plan to make him good. 3 colors with full moxen and solocrypt is a pretty good shell for beating shops I think. I'm not sure if you need to also run something like steel sabotage but right now I'm still working out the kinks of how to beat shops without red. I think ingot chewer is a crutch that doesn't really beat shops (at least not good shop pilots) because it is only a sorcery speed 1-for-1. It CAN win you games vs. shops, but I think tight play and sequencing will win you more games vs. shops with a more stable mana base. Just my 2-cents.

-Storm

[Meddling Mike]

Wow, such a tempting package. It stacks up favorably against a vintage staple with Young Pyromancer. Is the extra in the casting cost a fair increase for an additional point of toughness, Prowess for him AND his tokens and triggering off any non-creature rather than just Instants and Sorceries? It seems like a lot of extra bang for your buck. Even if there isn't a good shell for this guy right now, I think he's certainly powerful enough for Vintage. The only sticking point is the color. I think that the shells that can best optimize his ability don't currently have white.

[boxian]

I like it a lot, and I think that it could create a UWR archetype about spells matter where you use Delver/Pyro/M Monk and go bigger than the UR versions and probably wider too, since you'll have more token producers. 3 CMC is a lot, but it's not the worst thing it could be since you can still t1 lotus into it and then cast a mox or two and a draw spell and try to hold up misstep or force.

[fsecco]

I don't see why you'd want 8 token producers. You only need 1 on the table, for fearing of over-extending. I mean, if you're playing a more aggro deck, than having 8 token guys could be good just so you can resolve 1 of them earlier. But I don't think I'd want to have both Pyro and Mentor on the battlefield at the same time, except corner cases. I mean, Mentor's clock is so fast... When he's online you don't need a Pyromancer to help.

[Random Noob]

To get back to UWx and Repeal. That was where Sensei's Divining Top came to my Mind. It is solid by itself good with Repeal, and you could chain 2 Sensei's to generate an huge amount of Tokens.

[dangerlinto]

The problem with this vs Pyromancer is with the lower casting cost, when the inevitable removal / counter battle ensues the pyromancer player is more likely to have a token generator on the field.  And I think it's safe to say whatever deck construction this card it likely to employ, it's unlikely it will have MORE counter/ removal than a pyromancer deck.  In fact it would probably be less.

It's all well and good to imagine what the battle is like when they are both down on even terms (which Mentor presumably wins) but all things being equal, you will not be on even terms.  Pyromancer is likely to be on the ground first. 

The short version is, unless you counter pyromancer, it will probably win regardless of how good this creature is.  I'm not disparaging the Mentor, nor saying it won't be playable (quite the opposite), merely stating it's not a slam dunk to beat pyromancer's brains out.

[Protoaddict]

I think you put it pretty succinctly, and I was fishing for this term for a bit but it does in my eyes seem like this guy may just be a win more version of pyromancer. There will be cases where it shines over pyro but in the average case game pyromancer costing 1 less will be the difference.

Realistically, an active pyromancer needs to be dealt with asap or it will win the game, so the earlier you bring him on line the better. it is the same with this guy, but why pay one more when 2 mana already says stop me or I win.

[vaughnbros]

It's all well and good to imagine what the battle is like when they are both down on even terms (which Mentor presumably wins) but all things being equal, you will not be on even terms.  Pyromancer is likely to be on the ground first. 

This isn't necessarily true.  Pyromancer needs you to play a lot of instants/sorceries making accelerators like off-color moxen, sol ring, ect. worse.  A deck with more acceleration can cast a 3 drop just as easily if not easier than a deck with less acceleration casting a 2 drop.

Realistically, an active pyromancer needs to be dealt with asap or it will win the game, so the earlier you bring him on line the better. it is the same with this guy, but why pay one more when 2 mana already says stop me or I win.

Because the 3 mana version is harder to stop.  2 toughness, prowess, and prowess on the tokens.

[enderfall]

This whole discussion pretty much boils down to this:

If you want to play a strong Tempo-Control deck, you play Pyromancer and Delver just like before. If you want to play a Control deck (or Combo/Control, a la the Pyromancer GushBond decks running around) with a strong 1-card finisher, you play Mentor.

I can see both being playable in the same deck, but not one that also includes Delver.

[keys]

I'm guessing this has already been said, but can't you just jam MM into U/R Delver and call it the new best deck? Plus Containment Priest for good measure.

3 Monastery Mentor
3 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Wear // Tear
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Gush
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Misstep
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Preordain
2 Dack Fayden
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Island
2 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
4 Containment Priest
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wear // Tear

Seems too easy...

[boggyb]

This guy's synergy with Sensei's Top is wild. Every time you would draw a card, you can tap top right beforehand to bounce it to your hand and then replay it to generate a Swiftspear for . You can do this every upkeep.

[JACO]

This whole discussion pretty much boils down to this:

If you want to play a strong Tempo-Control deck, you play Pyromancer and Delver just like before. If you want to play a Control deck (or Combo/Control, a la the Pyromancer GushBond decks running around) with a strong 1-card finisher, you play Mentor.

I can see both being playable in the same deck, but not one that also includes Delver.

This is the best thing written in this thread. The decks that were going to play 3 Pyromancers and maybe a Tinker should just be playing this card instead of Pyromancer. Once you've established your manabase you go to town with a serious threat. If it gets killed immediately it's not the end of the world, but if it doesn't the game will end in very short order. Also, we should see a rise in the numbers of Wear//Tear (both main and sideboard) if Monastery Mentor sees play like I think it will in URW shells. Fastbond is a very interesting question in these type of decks, but I don't see it in most of the decks I've drawn up in my head. Tempo and windows of opportunity will probably be more important than a singular bust your nut turn.

[MaximumCDawg]

This guy's synergy with Sensei's Top is wild. Every time you would draw a card, you can tap top right beforehand to bounce it to your hand and then replay it to generate a Swiftspear for . You can do this every upkeep.

Opens you up to removal on the top, but yeah, thats pretty awesome.  Since you get the Prowess boost right away, too, you're basically making 2/2s when you do this. 

[sirgog]

This guy's synergy with Sensei's Top is wild. Every time you would draw a card, you can tap top right beforehand to bounce it to your hand and then replay it to generate a Swiftspear for . You can do this every upkeep.

Yeah this line of play is insane; probably even better in Legacy where Mental Misstep is banned.

[Guli]

This guy's synergy with Sensei's Top is wild. Every time you would draw a card, you can tap top right beforehand to bounce it to your hand and then replay it to generate a Swiftspear for . You can do this every upkeep.

Yeah this line of play is insane; probably even better in Legacy where Mental Misstep is banned.

I have seen someone use Opposition and Mentor in Legacy with great effect.

What I can say and confirm for sure is that Mentor does kill etremely fast like a lot of people said. It is not Pyromancer, do not compare please. It is more like Psychotog/Berserk if you must refer to some other grow card.

[sirgog]

That Tog/Berserk comparison is a very good one. Actually Psychatog is probably the best card to compare this to - it's a slightly above the curve creature with insane synergy with spells you were probably already playing, that is capable of very rapidly ending the game if unanswered.

Unlike Tog, however, it's a resilient little mongrel, and it doesn't leave you crippled if you go all-in on it and get hit with one of the few really solid answers to it. Tog/Serk loses to random fringe playable cards like Wipe Away, whereas even if you hit Mentor with one of the hardest answers to it (Supreme Verdict, a resolved Toxic Deluge for 4 or more, or *maybe* Anger of the Gods) it isn't like the opponent invested much into their Mentor.

[Chubby Rain]

Wanted to revive this thread as Monastery Mentor has finally arrived and I think this was somewhat overshadowed by the unrestriction of Gifts. In any case, my initial impression of him was confirmed - he is completely ridiculous. To add more detail, I do not think that he is comparable to Young Pyromancer though he can certainly play that role against shops. He is much more comparable to Tinker, Tendrils, or Psychotog in that he is an absurd finisher.

[enderfall]

He is much more comparable to ... Psychotog in that he is an absurd finisher.

I shall now call him Mentatog.

[The Atog Lord]

Mentatog: the Monk-Maker.

[rikimaru75]

Mentatog: the Monk-Maker.

Lol.

I've been brewing with Monastery Mentor and am thinking about running this at an upcoming vintage event this weekend.

Building upon keys' lead:

4 Gush
1 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Mental Misstep
1 Balance
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Time Walk
2 Flusterstorm
1 Wear // Tear
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Repeal
2 Dack Fayden
3 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Lotus Petal
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mountain

Sideboard
2 Devout Witness
1 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Plains
4 Rest in Peace
3 Containment Priest
2 Pyroblast

[RecklessEmbermage]

So, blue control decks have gotten a very reliable ad reasonably fast kill condition. This reminds me of when tarmogoyf was printed; it was decent in aggro decks at the time, but fit even better in controlling, blue shells.

I´m not looking to play this guy myself, but expect it to be a nightmare for the low-powered creature decks I like to play. I´ve been thinking of good answers, but am coming up short. Of course most spot removal spells deal with it, but a counter or even a gush in response ends up putting a guy in play that outgrows mine. It seems like a decent thing to name with meddling mage, sine it will tend to be a 3-4 of. Has anybody found an actual strong way to answer this card for a creature deck?