Monastery Mentor

[Stormanimagus]

I don't see how running mentor and pyromancer in the same deck makes any sense. You are overloading on creatures that way and using slots for pyromancer that SHOULD be used for token generation cards. You also get blown out by the same hate for your Alpha threat (Mentor) as you do for your Beta threat (Pyromancer). If you REALLY want to have aggro cards as extra kill conditions outside of Mentor at least choose a creature with a butt or a different type of utility. I'm not sure what a good example of this would be but I know that decks running Tabernacles, Deluges, Balance, Zealous Persecution or Golgari Charm. Fire/Ice (though to a lesser extent), Sudden Shock, and/or other sweepers will be licking their chops against a deck like this. Why do you NEED pyromancer at all? Meddling Mage protection? Like seriously, someone explain to me why a Mentor deck EVER NEEDS PYROMANCER.

-Storm

[StanleyAugust]

I don't see how running mentor and pyromancer in the same deck makes any sense. You are overloading on creatures that way and using slots for pyromancer that SHOULD be used for token generation cards. You also get blown out by the same hate for your Alpha threat (Mentor) as you do for your Beta threat (Pyromancer). If you REALLY want to have aggro cards as extra kill conditions outside of Mentor at least choose a creature with a butt or a different type of utility. I'm not sure what a good example of this would be but I know that decks running Tabernacles, Deluges, Balance, Zealous Persecution or Golgari Charm. Fire/Ice (though to a lesser extent), Sudden Shock, and/or other sweepers will be licking their chops against a deck like this. Why do you NEED pyromancer at all? Meddling Mage protection? Like seriously, someone explain to me why a Mentor deck EVER NEEDS PYROMANCER.

-Storm

I agree with this. I haven't understood why a Mentor deck EVER NEEDS PYROMANCER either. Running 5-6 token generators seem way too many. 3 is probably all you NEED.

[Protoaddict]

This has been a discussion for some time now. I am inclined to agree, the only time I think you need pyromancer in a mentor deck (or vice versa) is if you really think you need your 5th.

There is some hate that mentor does dodge that pyro does not, but it is very much corner case. Most specifically Electrickery is the one that has seen play, but golgari charm was always a strong contender.

As the deck grows I think we will see an evolution of the creature base, and people stop trying to make it a variation of delver and instead make it is own unique build. Just playing it as an upgrade to pyro isn't really fully utilizing the card or the color it naturally appears in. Likely I think we will get to a point where Pyromancer decks live next too Mentor decks as 2 separate things.

[Chubby Rain]

Why do you NEED pyromancer at all? Like seriously, someone explain to me why a Mentor deck EVER NEEDS PYROMANCER.
-Storm

Consistency. If you are constructing your deck to play the tempo role, you really want an early Mentor or Pyromancer and running 6 copies makes you much more likely to hit on turn 1-3. That said, there are other ways to build Mentor and I've had quite a bit of fun with this.

I agree with this. I haven't understood why a Mentor deck EVER NEEDS PYROMANCER either. Running 5-6 token generators seem way too many. 3 is probably all you NEED.

Again, different decks have different needs in accordance with their strengths and weaknesses. I do not believe there is a set number of "token generators" or even Mentors - that said, I will never play less than 4 Mentors in any deck in which SuperMonk plays a prominent role. Learned that lesson the hard way.

As the deck grows I think we will see an evolution of the creature base, and people stop trying to make it a variation of delver and instead make it is own unique build. Just playing it as an upgrade to pyro isn't really fully utilizing the card or the color it naturally appears in. Likely I think we will get to a point where Pyromancer decks live next too Mentor decks as 2 separate things.

Strongly agree with this statement. I have used Mentor in roles closer to Tendrils/Empty the Warrens and even Tinker. He has an incredible amount of play to him.

[sirgog]

There is some hate that mentor does dodge that pyro does not, but it is very much corner case. Most specifically Electrickery is the one that has seen play, but golgari charm was always a strong contender.

I have a Tremor in my wishboard at the moment for Pyromancer, and it is hilarious. It doesn't catch Mentor though.

[Wagner]

There is some hate that mentor does dodge that pyro does not, but it is very much corner case. Most specifically Electrickery is the one that has seen play, but golgari charm was always a strong contender.

I have a Tremor in my wishboard at the moment for Pyromancer, and it is hilarious. It doesn't catch Mentor though.

Cheap, deals with tokens from both creatures and is a pain to remove. Just need to watch for Mistep and the token producers themselves.

Volcanic Spray might be better than Tremor. Double the cost, but double the use.

[VibeBox]

Cheap, deals with tokens from both creatures and is a pain to remove. Just need to watch for Mistep and the token producers themselves.

i too had been pondering what sb tool to use if mentor is now going to force out pyromancer.
i think i'm actually gonna try engineered plague instead of illness
it dodges the missteps, is much better against the aggro decks that want a cavern naming humans, and has fringe value against any poor saps who might shuffle merfolk

[enderfall]

Sorry to burst your bubble... Engineered Plague naming Human does nothing to Monk tokens.

[VibeBox]

Sorry to burst your bubble... Engineered Plague naming Human does nothing to Monk tokens.

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh
every fuckin thing for the last five years has had "human" needlessly tacked on it, except these damn tokens
: -(     : -/
boo to this

guess it's back to testing janky stuff like night of soul's betrayal and consume the meek

[Stormanimagus]

Sorry to burst your bubble... Engineered Plague naming Human does nothing to Monk tokens.

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh
every fuckin thing for the last five years has had "human" needlessly tacked on it, except these damn tokens
: -(     : -/
boo to this

guess it's back to testing janky stuff like night of soul's betrayal and consume the meek

You can always just name "Monk" and that will off the tokens while reducing the power/toughness of the mentor himself. 2 plagues would ensure no further mentors for the rest of the game.

[msg67183]

I've been testing Pernicious Deed, it's more versatile than Plague. Just a thought for you.

[serracollector]

Pretty sure massacre is still free with a tundra and does the job.

[Wagner]

Pretty sure massacre is still free with a tundra and does the job.

But if they have any instant, all you do is clear the tokens. If they have mana open, they might even cast 2 spells and make Massacre even less good. Any answer should at least clear tokens permanently or kill the Mentor.

Sulfur Elemental has been used a bit, but I'm really not a fan.

[msg67183]

Once again, Pernicious Deed will get the job done no matter how big the army is.

[vaughnbros]

Once again, Pernicious Deed will get the job done no matter how big the army is.

It's 6 mana to kill a monk, in 2 non blue colors, can only be used once, and potentially has massive collateral damage.

[msg67183]

Once again, Pernicious Deed will get the job done no matter how big the army is.

It's 6 mana to kill a monk, in 2 non blue colors, can only be used once, and potentially has massive collateral damage.

Doesn't need to be in a single turn, and you just need to play around it, or accept that you may lose some stuff.

[Hrishi]

I don't know if you have tested against Monk a lot, but if you aren't killing the Monk and tokens before they untap, you're probably dead already. I don't know how a 6 mana non-blue answer gets the job done here. Pernicious Deed is a fine card, but it is not a reliable answer to Mentor.

[serracollector]

Moat? Supreme Verdict? Teferis Moat? Propaganda? Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale? Arcane Laboratory? Caltrops? Meekstone? Humility? Inferno Titan!

[vaughnbros]

Moat? Supreme Verdict? Teferis Moat? Propaganda? Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale? Arcane Laboratory? Caltrops? Meekstone? Humility? Inferno Titan!

Meekstone and caltrops don't work against Mentor but yeh there are a ton of options depends on what the deck is looking for.

[desolutionist]

On the topic of Pernicious Deed; Punishment does the job for one less mana and is easier to tutor for (Burning Wish, Mystical Tutor, Snapcaster Mage)

[MaximumCDawg]

On the topic of Pernicious Deed; Punishment does the job for one less mana and is easier to tutor for (Burning Wish, Mystical Tutor, Snapcaster Mage)

I've always wondered what that card does not see play.  It seems very powerful ... for Modern.

[desolutionist]

Doesn't seem bad in Vintage either;  You could theoretically win Vintage games with this card. :p

[msg67183]

Doesn't seem bad in Vintage either;  You could theoretically win Vintage games with this card. :p

I'd rather play Gaze of Granite over Punishment since Punishment has the words "or less" missing from it.

[desolutionist]

^Heh true, I forgot about that

[msg67183]

^Heh true, I forgot about that

And Gaze of Granite can be used the same as Deed for me. I usually used Deed just to kill the tokens and then use Decay to kill the token generator itself.

[Wagner]

On the topic of Pernicious Deed; Punishment does the job for one less mana and is easier to tutor for (Burning Wish, Mystical Tutor, Snapcaster Mage)

I've always wondered what that card does not see play.  It seems very powerful ... for Modern.

Isn't Punishment a worse Engineered Explosives? Pay 2 to kill tokens, pay 5 to kill Mentor, but you cannot split the cost.

[vaughnbros]

Deed is X or less.

[The Atog Lord]

Deed is likely better against Dredge. You can play it and then pop it at your convenience to clear out all of their Zombie tokens. With a sorcery-speed removal spell, you can lose to a horde of zombies arriving and being given haste all at once.

[thecrav]

On the topic of Pernicious Deed; Punishment does the job for one less mana and is easier to tutor for (Burning Wish, Mystical Tutor, Snapcaster Mage)

Along similar lines, I like Echoing Truth in that spot a lot. Hits other things, kills tokens regardless of size, pitches to Force and can be got with Mystical.

[sirgog]

Dread of Night is slightly better than Engineered Plague or Illness In The Ranks against Mentor (although it doesn't have the same effects against Pyromancer).

Also, Virtue's Ruin kills the Monk and his whole family.