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Author Topic: Vintage Super League Season 2 Week 4-6 Predictions & Discussion  (Read 16378 times)
Will
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« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2015, 02:14:41 pm »

There are a lot of ways to build Mentor, so my answer to the question "why not run Pyro or Delver" pertains specifically to the "Delver" style Mentor variant.

First,as I noted, I tested Mentor lists with Delver, and being a creature was much more of a liability than it was in Pyromancer decks. Every Mentor token, as you noted, is much more powerful than Pyro tokens.  In fact, in one match, I joked that my Mentor token was superior to Ryan's Young Pyromancer. The result is that there is a much, much steeper cost to running creature spells, which cannot trigger Mentor.  Second, the role of cards like Delver is matchup specific - it's there for decks like Merfolk, Shops, and a few other things. Mentor's capacity to overwhelm renders the additional creatures less necessary. Mentor generates Tarmogoyfs.  Third, you don't actually need an early Mentor, because Mentor's creatures are so powerful, I've found that you don't really have to worry about being overwhelmed by Pyro tokens nearly as much as in the Delver mirror.  Mentor's creatures most often make favorable trades - such that just a few Mentor tokens can hold off a much larger force/army of tokens from Delver.  In one testing game, I don't think I got a Mentor into play until Turn 7, and I handily won.  I think it was this game that solidified my position that the conclusion Rich had drawn, that Mentor decks needed an early Mentor, was mistaken.  

In the latest So Many Insane Plays podcast, I compared Mentor to BSC, but, in the last few weeks, I realized that the better comparison is to Psychatog circa 2003. It's an overwhelmingly powerful creature that can come down and contend with much greater forces, and then turn into a very lethal victory quickly.  Those of you who didn't play Type I in 2003 probably won't appreciate the analogy, but I think it will resonate with many who did.  

Steve, let me say, good job with the Mentor list, it is the first build which I have seen which actually looks good rather than cute.

It seemed like you tried to establish yourself as the control role against LSV in both of your regular season matches. Both times it seemed as though your game plan was to win a war of attrition in which you eventually would deplete his resources and win because your deck is "thinner" mana source wise. The Mentor list which you played seems to do this better as the maindeck has fewer creatures to begin with and thus has more room for counters and card draw.

My sample size when evaluating this matchup is definitely small, but it seemed like if you had been able to deploy any form of pressure early in the game you would have won handily as you had him so completely outgunned. Variance definitely played a part in your most recent lost to LSV, but did you miss having something like Delver in your deck for the sole reason of putting a real clock on the board? When Rich and I spoke on Tuesday night this was one of the points which I thought that having the card Delver of Secrets made a Delver deck like Rich's better against a heavy control (or combo) deck than the deck you decided to pilot. Do you agree with this?
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« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2015, 02:44:09 pm »

I believe Delver is still very important to the build for the reasons Will stated and the threat it poses in Shops match ups.

Besides Delver's omission, I find Ryan, Dave and Steve's list well designed, certainly far more so than "big mana" or more combo-y builds. Mentor is a tank, it is an incredibly slot-efficient threat and as such can soak up the opponent's cards and card slots. Building too much around it negates this advantage, the same way that Skullclamp and Fastbond were never ideal in RUG Delver lists. Gush is the ideal Mentor card the same way it was the ideal Pyromancer card: it's a free draw spell. Drawing into mana, including artifact mana, goes against the ideals of a Gush deck. And ultimately, UR Delver, RUG Delver, UWr Delver or UW Mentor, are all Gush decks, not Mentor/Pyromancer/Delver decks. The archetype is Gush aggro-control (both aggro and control roles at once) as well as Gush aggro/control (either aggro or control, changing gears in match when appropriate). The specific threats and colors are secondary if the deck is well-constructed. The fascinating thing is that Mentor kills so fast, and combos with any non-creature spell, essentially splicing Lightning Bolt onto everything you play, that it gives Gush aggro-control the ability to even choose the combo role. With a Mentor out, a pilot can legitimately combo out in a single turn, in a way that same pilot never would be able to do with Pyromancer.

Mentor has the ability to add the combo role to the archetype, but only, I believe, if Delver is kept around. Without Delver, the ability to play the aggro role is very much diminished. Mentor can be thrown out early, but against traditional combo-control, especially against Gifts,  tapping out to play Mentor turn 3 (after Gushing, perhaps), puts one in a very vulnerable position during blue combo's critical turns. Pyromancer did not have this problem for the simple reason that he cost 2, instead of 3. One could play Pyromancer, Gush, create a token, and have an untapped land, holding up Pyroblast, Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm. That can't be done with Mentor.

If one is more or less resolved not to tap out to play Mentor, an early Gush sets back Mentor's arrival by two or three turns, most likely. That's absolutely fine if the pilot can maintain the control role until that time. Mentor can do Pyromancer's damage in a fraction of the time, and so the overall clock is not diminished. However, early game threats like Delver and Pyromancer helped UR and RUG Gush decks establish and maintain the control role. Having the threat consumed the opponent's resources, or forced them to play into counters. Without on-board threats, opponents can wait out control, sort of like LSV did in the VSL match. A mere Delver knocking away for three damage a turn makes it much harder to sit around and wait, and actually strengthens the control role of the deck.

It seems likely that without Mentor, Gush decks were moving towards dropping Delver anyway. The card had become a bit maligned as it became clear Pyromancer was the more important threat in the deck. Dropping Delver now remains a mistake. The simple interaction of an unflipped Delver and a fetchland is a legitimately valuable early game play. The increased casting cost of Mentor relative to Pyromancer makes having Delver's inexpensive threat even more important, not less. I hope Dave and Steve's decks will prove me dumb and wrong on this, but I'm not yet convinced.

Hypothetical changes relative to Steve's deck would be

-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Dig Through Time
-1 Monastery Mentor

+3 Delver of Secrets
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 02:47:50 pm by mueller » Logged
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« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2015, 04:15:41 pm »

What are your thoughts on this part of the season?

I'm glad that players are embracing more of the archetypes that separate Vintage from Legacy (DDay, shops, etc.).

I'm a proponent of non-violent Magic and it pains me to see creatures turning sideways and attacking.
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« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2015, 05:22:01 pm »

The way that I got to my Mentor list was taking my last version of Delver (from weeks 1-3), cutting Pyromancers for Mentors, Trops for Tundras, Trygons for Dacks, and then just testing it from there.  I quickly realized that Delver is really bad with Mentor since it doesn't trigger Mentor.  From there, I just tuned based upon further testing, and Ryan and Kevin persuaded me of the superiority of Plow over Bolt.  

I'm persuaded that this approach is stronger, in general, than the big mana Mentor versions because of the consistency and power of the Gush/Dig/Preordain/mana base shell, virtual card advantage, etc., all that good stuff.

Some of the specificities of my list were tailored to my opponents.

I am 100% behind this version of Mentor, but I played against an exceptional opponent last night, got a little unlucky (drawing 3 lands off Ancestral, for example), and made some subtle (and perhaps not so subtle) errors.  The most glaring mistake that I think caused me to lose game 1 was discarding Dig instead of Force #3 (or the Tundra) the turn I Gushed.  Had I done that correctly, I would have been able to Dig through all of the garbage I ended up drawing, and would have, I believe, consolidated my position.  
 

Not necessarily a mistake but a play I would have done differently:

You had a Dig on the stack and LSV played an Ancestral. You Forced pitching Gush but had you just let the Recall resolve, you would still have Gush and FoW, cards that are most likely better than whatever LSV would get off Ancestral.

I generally don't FoW Ancestral because it's not a good trade and FoW is the best card in your deck, so by playing them conservatively I feel you get more value.

*edit* David commented as if you were automatically going to counter it.  I think a lot of people have that misconception... It's actually how LSV beat you; he didn't value Ancestral as high as you and used it just to bait your counter
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 05:38:02 pm by desolutionist » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2015, 05:36:13 pm »

I believe Delver is still very important to the build for the reasons Will stated and the threat it poses in Shops match ups.

Besides Delver's omission, I find Ryan, Dave and Steve's list well designed, certainly far more so than "big mana" or more combo-y builds.

[...]

If one is more or less resolved not to tap out to play Mentor, an early Gush sets back Mentor's arrival by two or three turns, most likely. That's absolutely fine if the pilot can maintain the control role until that time. Mentor can do Pyromancer's damage in a fraction of the time, and so the overall clock is not diminished. However, early game threats like Delver and Pyromancer helped UR and RUG Gush decks establish and maintain the control role.

Thanks. My initial thoughts were very similar to the sentiment you express here. I played a list at Bloomsburg which also had delvers. My takeaway was that against almost all blue decks buzzing in for 3 damage a turn was inconsequential. Mentor is so insane that it's very close to tinker->colossus if you haven't exhausted your resources.

If you're worried about your opponent comboing out I think almost 100% of the time the second line you suggested, of never tapping out, is correct. It is very difficult for a gifts opponent for instance to get enough protection to resolve a backbreaking spell. Stony Silence is basically a win condition against most of the decks trying to go over the top of you (gifts and more combo'y versions of Mentor). Rich Shay mentioned this, and I agree with him, that delver has a better storm matchup. I personally have played against so little storm that I don't care much about the matchup when deckbuilding.

I do still agree that the shops matchup needs some tuning. Almost the only reason I ran delvers in Bloomsburg was for fear of shops. Perhaps more testing will conclude that delvers should be in the deck. I personally don't get a ton of testing against shops. I do think there is a better solution though, since delver even isn't gameover for many shops variants. I've been testing and theorycrafting many different sideboard configurations and trying to come up with some maindeck options. I think there's still a lot of territory to explore here, and the inertial option of keeping in delvers is not necessarily correct
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 06:02:22 pm by diophan » Logged
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« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2015, 06:17:10 pm »

Was anybody else a bit thrown off that both Efro and Chris Pikula audibled into Shops after going 3-0 in the first trimester with another archetype? I figured if you were running that well in the first 3 matches you wouldn't want to change horse midstream, but I guess since they're both still undefeated there's something to be said for the surprise factor.
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« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2015, 06:47:42 pm »

*edit* David commented as if you were automatically going to counter it.  I think a lot of people have that misconception... It's actually how LSV beat you; he didn't value Ancestral as high as you and used it just to bait your counter

I didn't do commentary on this match.
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« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2015, 07:02:29 pm »

Was anybody else a bit thrown off that both Efro and Chris Pikula audibled into Shops after going 3-0 in the first trimester with another archetype? I figured if you were running that well in the first 3 matches you wouldn't want to change horse midstream, but I guess since they're both still undefeated there's something to be said for the surprise factor.

Chris went 3-0 in the first trimester in the first season, and then 0-3, I believe, in the second.  So, there is a strong incentive to switch decks regardless of record.  In fact, the incentive may in some ways be stronger if you are 3-0 in terms of metagaming, because if you are 3-0, your opponent's will most likely put you on running the same deck back.  
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« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2015, 10:57:34 pm »

*edit* David commented as if you were automatically going to counter it.  I think a lot of people have that misconception... It's actually how LSV beat you; he didn't value Ancestral as high as you and used it just to bait your counter

I didn't do commentary on this match.

I'm sorry I really thought it was you.  It was EFro...  And not that I'm singling anyone out, Ancestral is obviously a really good card that should be countered.  Just saying in this instance, Steve might have been able to win if he let the Ancestral resolve.
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« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2015, 11:05:53 pm »

It's going to be very painful, but if I make it home at a not horribly late hour, and I'm not exhausted, I might restream my match and try to analyze what happened, including responding to the questions raised today. 

It's not fair what a master LSV is.  Someone on twitter put it best: "LSV gives back-to-back virtuoso performances in patience and picking your spot in the VSL."   
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« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2015, 11:31:05 pm »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qBo_rA5PWY

Dig Through Time goes onto the stack at 33:38

You actually try to Force it twice, pitching Gush both times...  The first FoW is okay but not great, the second FoW just leaves you with nothing left.

You had the countermagic to win that game it was just the sequencing that got screwed up as you will see.

*EDIT*

Actually, you would have had to play no Forces on the ACall because his Misdirection would send it at the Dig through Time.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 11:49:24 pm by desolutionist » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2015, 01:03:03 am »

Im sorry if this seems a silly question as I have not seen the decklists yet but would Deathrite Shaman be a better three or four of than Delver in a Mentor list? He would provide crucial mana versus the MUD lists be an alternate win versus other control variants while denying them delve and or Yawgmoths/Snap targets and can be a one drop threat that can stick while you hold counters playing the control role til Mentor hits the board. Just my thoughts.
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« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2015, 09:51:15 am »

Im sorry if this seems a silly question as I have not seen the decklists yet but would Deathrite Shaman be a better three or four of than Delver in a Mentor list? He would provide crucial mana versus the MUD lists be an alternate win versus other control variants while denying them delve and or Yawgmoths/Snap targets and can be a one drop threat that can stick while you hold counters playing the control role til Mentor hits the board. Just my thoughts.

That seems a fair point. While its clock is worse than delver (2 life in best of cases vs a supposed 3) and cannot kill lodestone, being able to ramp up mana is better overall.
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« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2015, 09:55:11 am »

Im sorry if this seems a silly question as I have not seen the decklists yet but would Deathrite Shaman be a better three or four of than Delver in a Mentor list? He would provide crucial mana versus the MUD lists be an alternate win versus other control variants while denying them delve and or Yawgmoths/Snap targets and can be a one drop threat that can stick while you hold counters playing the control role til Mentor hits the board. Just my thoughts.

The problem with this is that the Mentor decks which we saw in the VSL were either UW or UWR. I'm assuming that you want some green mana so that Deathrite can gain you life which means you are at least 4 if not 5 colors. I'm not saying that this idea is bad, but you are talking about a completely different deck than what was played so far.
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« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2015, 10:52:22 am »

Im sorry if this seems a silly question as I have not seen the decklists yet but would Deathrite Shaman be a better three or four of than Delver in a Mentor list? He would provide crucial mana versus the MUD lists be an alternate win versus other control variants while denying them delve and or Yawgmoths/Snap targets and can be a one drop threat that can stick while you hold counters playing the control role til Mentor hits the board. Just my thoughts.

The problem with this is that the Mentor decks which we saw in the VSL were either UW or UWR. I'm assuming that you want some green mana so that Deathrite can gain you life which means you are at least 4 if not 5 colors. I'm not saying that this idea is bad, but you are talking about a completely different deck than what was played so far.

Well, I think it could possibly be fine to run Deathrite without Green.  Gaining life is definitely the worst mode on him, without a doubt.  People in Legacy have done it before, with reasonable results.

More likely though, is that running a single Green source is more than enough to accomidate Deathrite.  The bonus of this is that, as some people found last year, Gush and Deathrite seem to work well together.  A small Green splash gives you Fastbond as well, so there is that, if you choose to run Gush with Mentor.

Now, I am going to make an unfounded supposition that there is also something of a natural synergy between targeted discard and Mentor (get Prowess triggers on your first main), so it seems to be a complimentary form of disruption as opposed to just counter-magic.  That being said, I have not had any time to test, so I'm probably wrong, since it seems no one bothered with Black as a color for their Mentor deck.
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« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2015, 11:01:18 am »

Now, I am going to make an unfounded supposition that there is also something of a natural synergy between targeted discard and Mentor (get Prowess triggers on your first main), so it seems to be a complimentary form of disruption as opposed to just counter-magic.  That being said, I have not had any time to test, so I'm probably wrong, since it seems no one bothered with Black as a color for their Mentor deck.

Sorry if this is going too far off topic, but ChubbyRain (along with some others, I ran into someone else in a daily playing the list) has an Esper Mentor list with cabal therapy that is an interesting take. There are some videos on his twitch channel.
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« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2015, 11:12:50 am »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qBo_rA5PWY

Dig Through Time goes onto the stack at 33:38

You actually try to Force it twice, pitching Gush both times...  The first FoW is okay but not great, the second FoW just leaves you with nothing left.

You had the countermagic to win that game it was just the sequencing that got screwed up as you will see.

*EDIT*

Actually, you would have had to play no Forces on the ACall because his Misdirection would send it at the Dig through Time.

Honestly I think the match went downhill from the point on in g1 at which Steve let the Demonic resolve. I'd really like to watch the replay with commentary, because I would like to hear Steve's thoughts on this situation. My reasoning to counter Demonic here is that I would have no idea what's going on, my hand is stacked with counterspells and I'd rather not have my opponent set up an unknown future line of play. Maybe Steve expected LSV to be on DD or Gifts, in which case letting the Tutor resolve would make sense to me.
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« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2015, 11:13:45 am »

Now, I am going to make an unfounded supposition that there is also something of a natural synergy between targeted discard and Mentor (get Prowess triggers on your first main), so it seems to be a complimentary form of disruption as opposed to just counter-magic.  That being said, I have not had any time to test, so I'm probably wrong, since it seems no one bothered with Black as a color for their Mentor deck.

Sorry if this is going too far off topic, but ChubbyRain (along with some others, I ran into someone else in a daily playing the list) has an Esper Mentor list with cabal therapy that is an interesting take. There are some videos on his twitch channel.

Yeah, sorry, I should have been more clear, I meant no one in the VSL.
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« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2015, 02:27:43 pm »

Now, I am going to make an unfounded supposition that there is also something of a natural synergy between targeted discard and Mentor (get Prowess triggers on your first main), so it seems to be a complimentary form of disruption as opposed to just counter-magic.  That being said, I have not had any time to test, so I'm probably wrong, since it seems no one bothered with Black as a color for their Mentor deck.

Sorry if this is going too far off topic, but ChubbyRain (along with some others, I ran into someone else in a daily playing the list) has an Esper Mentor list with cabal therapy that is an interesting take. There are some videos on his twitch channel.

An Esper approach may be among the best options for a Mentor mirror match, but I have even less confidence that such a deck could perform consistently well against Workshops.  It would be the equivalent of Doomsday - great against blue decks, weak to Workshops.  To compete consistently with Workshops, I think you have to have green or red.  
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« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2015, 02:38:43 pm »

With dr shaman and Dismember and Snuff Out and Swords to Plowshares I would have to disagree. Also Mentor makes an interesting card alongside the black enchantment that lets you sac a creature to destroy an artifact. Sorry for not knowing the name atm.
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« Reply #50 on: February 27, 2015, 04:53:16 pm »

An Esper approach may be among the best options for a Mentor mirror match, but I have even less confidence that such a deck could perform consistently well against Workshops.  It would be the equivalent of Doomsday - great against blue decks, weak to Workshops.  To compete consistently with Workshops, I think you have to have green or red.  

Possibly true, but White isn't a horrendous option though.  The extra percent versus Blue might be worth the loss of a few versus Workshops, but obviously heavily depending on the meta.

With dr shaman and Dismember and Snuff Out and Swords to Plowshares I would have to disagree. Also Mentor makes an interesting card alongside the black enchantment that lets you sac a creature to destroy an artifact. Sorry for not knowing the name atm.

I believe you meant Gate to Phyrexia.  It's a bit slow though.  I think you would have a much better time with Devout Witness and Serenity though.  White isn't terrible at dealing with Artifacts, per se.
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« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2015, 05:20:34 pm »

White is more than a few percentage points lost against Shops IMO. At 1, 2 and 3 on the curve, White can't compete with Chewer, Grudge or Dack.

I don't like it but I've come t realize my Mentor builds need to be UWR, not just UW.
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« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2015, 09:53:03 pm »

White is more than a few percentage points lost against Shops IMO. At 1, 2 and 3 on the curve, White can't compete with Chewer, Grudge or Dack.

I don't like it but I've come t realize my Mentor builds need to be UWR, not just UW.

Try a config including ancient tombs, ee's, hurks, and trinket mages and your matchup vs. shops will be super sexy. Trust me, I've been testing it quite a bit. This version requires 17-18 lands minimum though.

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« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2015, 09:38:28 am »

White is more than a few percentage points lost against Shops IMO. At 1, 2 and 3 on the curve, White can't compete with Chewer, Grudge or Dack.

I don't like it but I've come t realize my Mentor builds need to be UWR, not just UW.

It depends what you are doing as your plan. If you want to talk a little about it, I can give you some insight on how to crack Shops as just UW. We've been doing it for years with Bomberman, it's not impossible as UW. That said, Dack Fayden's +1 in other match ups is absurd and might just pull you there separate from the Shop mu, but that's up to you.
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« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2015, 04:49:12 pm »

In game 2 week four against Randy on merfolk, Steve should have cast as many spells as possible and then used swords to plowshares on one of his prowessed-up tokens, so that he would have gained enough life to win next turn no matter what.

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« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2015, 08:19:00 pm »

Would definitely like to hear your thoughts on the UW match against Shops, Samoht. Essentially I come to a similar conclusion re: Dack - it's the only really good maindeck option that does heavy lifting across matchups.
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« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2015, 04:45:40 pm »

In game 2 week four against Randy on merfolk, Steve should have cast as many spells as possible and then used swords to plowshares on one of his prowessed-up tokens, so that he would have gained enough life to win next turn no matter what.


There were like 3 lines other than the one Stephen took that would have won him game 2. As mentioned in the cast, not playing around topdecked lord is just a gross oversight from Steve.

I also think that Steve's build was pretty poor. 3 on color moxen is not where you want to be with mentor.dec NO MATTER WHAT THE COLOR CONFIGS ARE. you really want to be running sol ring and mana crypt in mentor lists to power out earlier mentors. Gush can sorta do this as well, but not nearly as well as extra moxen, crypt and sol ring do. I believe the "best minds" in Vintage are failing pretty miserably at building a good Mentor deck because they are still stuck in the zone of thinking this is a new and improved pyromancer deck. It isn't. Sometimes the best teacher is losses. They will continue to pile up for Mentor as long as these crap builds continue to proliferate.

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« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2015, 05:20:13 pm »

It's really convenient to be johnny-come-lately and chime and criticize now when the deck went 0-2, but where were you last week?  Also, I didn't just brew up a Mentor deck and then decide to play it in the VSL with zero testing, preparation, etc.  My 0-2 performance thus far against LSV and Randy has in no way whatsoever has changed my view that the best Mentor shell is the Gush one I've built.  Losing to Hall of Famers doesn't in any way prove a deck is "crap."  That's like saying a .400 baseball hitter is terrible because they can't get hits off one of the best pitchers ever.  

I have no regrets for my deck choice or my deck design. Both I matches I played in the VSL were winnable.  I easily could have won either game against LSV (as I talked about in my stream).  The blunder I made against Randy was Pyroblasting the Cursecatcher because I assumed I needed to attack - and hit - with both Mentor's this turn in order to guarantee to have enough damage next turn to win the game.  Even with that assumption being wrong, Randy topdecking a lord was a fairly low probability event (well under 20%).
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 05:25:05 pm by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2015, 05:39:51 pm »

It's really convenient to be johnny-come-lately and chime and criticize now when the deck went 0-2, but where were you last week?  Also, I didn't just brew up a Mentor deck and then decide to play it in the VSL with zero testing, preparation, etc.  My 0-2 performance thus far against LSV and Randy has in no way whatsoever has changed my view that the best Mentor shell is the Gush one I've built.  Losing to Hall of Famers doesn't in any way prove a deck is "crap."  That's like saying a .400 baseball hitter is terrible because they can't get hits off one of the best pitchers ever.  

I have no regrets for my deck choice or my deck design. Both I matches I played in the VSL were winnable.  I easily could have won either game against LSV (as I talked about in my stream).  The blunder I made against Randy was Pyroblasting the Cursecatcher because I assumed I needed to attack - and hit - with both Mentor's this turn in order to guarantee to have enough damage next turn to win the game.  Even with that assumption being wrong, Randy topdecking a lord was a fairly low probability event (well under 20%).

I'll trust you on that %20 number but I'd have to check the cards he'd already played vs. the cards he had left to draw in his deck. The point is, you didn't even have to face down that %20. It was a clear misplay. I don't think we need to get into here.

As to your decklist, well, I guess I'll just have to tip my hat to your superior deck design. If you can really feel ok with running a guy that costs 2W with only 3 moxes and a lotus and have him be your main win con then more power to ya. I wouldn't do it that way. I would definitely be AT LEAST adding sol ring and mana crypt to most mentor lists and probably I'd be running mox jet and mox emerald. All 4 cards help you get to mentor faster and they trigger prowess once he's in play. I think your misconception with running more "dead top decks" is that you are leveraging your game vs. blue by running more virtual card advantage. That philosophy may have been true a couple years ago and maybe even last year, but I disagree with it going forward. Mentor is such a powerful threat that he makes up for marginal loss in quality of topdeck by hitting turns earlier and with more consistency. This is why choices like full acceleration make sense with Mentor. I don't think you are losing much vs. blue by doing so either. If anything you are gaining something by being able to beatdown earlier and take precious turns away from them in which to topdeck business.

Stephen, you're the Vintage voice far more than I am so I'm sure folks will just assume I'm rattling off nonsense and disregard it. This saddens me though, because I think I'm not saying anything here that doesn't make sense and couldn't improve this deck from where it is right now.

-Storm

P.S - Also, I'm not allowed to say a deck you made is bad? People slam decks of mine all the time and I don't take it half as personally as you seem to be taking it. Opinions are opinions. Take them as you will, but don't act like you can't be criticized because of your standing in the community while lower players like myself can just be torn apart for proposing new ideas and innovations. That is a double standard.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 05:42:41 pm by Stormanimagus » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2015, 07:50:18 pm »

Actually, it's more that I don't think other Mentor decks were consistently as good against Delver strategies. 

Rich Shay said that none of the Mentor decks he played could beat Delver without T1 or T2 Mentor.  That wasn't true of my Mentor list. 
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