[DTK] Narset Transcendent

[fsecco]

Narset Transcendent
2WU
Planeswalker - Narset
+1: Look at the top card of your library. If it's a noncreature, nonland card, you may reveal it and put it into your hand.
-2: When you cast your next instant or sorcery spell from your hand this turn, it gains rebound.
-9: You get an emblem with "Your opponents can't cast noncreature spells.

I don't know, her +1 is not that great. But man... Giving Rebound to your spells is awesome. It's a shame it doesn't work with Snapcaster. But imagine rebounding Recall, Dig, Cruise or Y Will? NICE.


EDIT: I just read that Rebound only works if the original spell resolves. So yeah... not that cool. I thought it dodged counterspells. =/

[vaughnbros]

This is incredibly powerful.  Wow.

+1 should be draw a card 50% of the time and can easily be set up with sensei's top.  The -2 is solid with almost every non counterspell instant/sorcery.  The ultimate is GG in most MU's.  Starts at a whomping 6 loyalty?!?

[Protoaddict]

This has tons of potential. I think it fills a similar role to Jace while not actually being jace, so it may be worth it to diversify your stack. You know, plus it works better with Jace.

All the abilities she has play nice with what vintage decks already do as well, so I would be shocked if this didn't see some play.

[vaughnbros]

This has tons of potential. I think it fills a similar role to Jace while not actually being jace, so it may be worth it to diversify your stack. You know, plus it works better with Jace.

It's a little bit different Jace in that this is a little bit more of a win con and a little bit less of an engine.  The card is hard to deal with given its high loyalty, its +1 is usually going to be better than Jace's +2, and it ultimates much faster.

EDIT: I just read that Rebound only works if the original spell resolves. So yeah... not that cool. I thought it dodged counterspells. =/

I'm not sure the -2 is all that important.

[JarofFortune]

EDIT: I just read that Rebound only works if the original spell resolves. So yeah... not that cool. I thought it dodged counterspells. =/

I'm not sure the -2 is all that important.

I think that the -2 will be very important if this card is going to see play(which it probably will). Being able to copy a gush or dig through time is very powerful.  

It's also worth noting that this card's ultimate, which is much more attainable than that of Jace, effectively wins the game in Vintage. It shouldn't be hard to deal with random creatures they play later anyway, since you've ideally drawn a few extra cards with the +1.

[Attrition]

Her colors and +1 ability make her seem like she could find a place in slower, more controlling Mentor decks that play with very few creatures.

[Protoaddict]

I think in any U/W shell she is probably strong, since that deck inherently teams with her well.

She works well with Jace
She has very high loyalty, and is out of bolt range even if you -2 her first
She works well with Brainstorm, Ponder, top, and Preordain
She pitches to force

Honestly she probably fits into most U/W decks right now (angels, Mentor, stoneforge) and remember that rebound actually does work with snapcaster, as if the spell resolves from rebound it does go to the discard pile for you to target.

I certainly will hold on to any copies I get.

[MaximumCDawg]

Okay, let's noodle through this.  

Is this card Vintage Playable?  This is a really tough call.  In a vacuum, her abilities are very good for Vintage and her cost is competitive.  The biggest problem in my mind, is why you would choose her over Jace.  In what cases do you want one over the other?  Remember what happened to poor Koria, who also had arguably Vintage-relevant abilities?  Maybe sometimes you run both, but the vast majority of the time you reach for Kiora, what you really want is Jace.

1.   Narset's +1 is not as good as Jace's +0.  Win for Jace.
2.   Narset's casting cost requires you to be playing White, but once you are, is easier than Jace's to cast.  Wash.
3.   Narset does not disrupt your opponent while building to her ult.  On the other hand, she draws you gas while she's building to her ult, and she gets there far more quickly.  Win for Jace.
4.   Narset does NOT add to the removal slots in your deck, while Jace does.  Win for Jace.
5.   Narset has no innate way of protecting herself.  On the other hand, she starts with a ridiculously high loyalty, and her +1 ability is always relevant as a way to keep her in there.  Unless you're swinging in with Golems or Tinkerbots, Narset is hard to kill quickly in a Vintage game.  Wash.
6.   Narset's second ability is crazy good with spells in Vintage, moreso than any other format.  Giving anything on the restricted list Rebound -- multiple times -- for free on the turn you do it -- is potentially Earth-shatteringly good in this format.  Would you play "Seal of Fork" if you could and it cost 4 mana and you could use it 2 - 3 times before it went away?  I think you might.  Advantage Narset.

Considering all of that, I'm thinking Narset IS the real deal.  Generally speaking, she's a worse catch-all Walker than Jace.  I'm not sure decks with a high spell content wouldn't rather use Jace just to keep the removal density up.  However, if your deck is half made up of restricted cards, Narset's ability to copy multiple spells as you need to, and draw cards when you do not, is really, REALLY, good.  Her starting loyalty is a HUGE reason she's good.  You can rebound THREE TIMES IN A ROW if she's not attacked.  If she is attacked, she will likely still survive to do her thing once or twice if you ignore the attackers entirely!

She's pre-selling for $30.00.  Unlike Kiora, who has tanked to 10 or below, I think this Walker deserves the price tag and I think people are well-advised to grab a playset before it starts creeping up.  Standard might not go bonkers on this one, but I suspect Modern will.  This Walker deserves to end up at the same level as Liliana and Dack Fayden - not quite Jace, but close.  (I'm putting my money where my mouth is, btw, and I never do that with Walkers.  Hope I'm right -- but I think I am.  Last time I did this was with Snapcaster, and that was a very good choice)

EDIT: Before someone complains: yes, I realize you can't rebound a spell off a rebound, that's not what I mean.  I mean that you can keep casting new spells are rebounding them.  Also, since rebound eventually puts the cards in your yard, you can always Regrowth them back and the rebound it again, rinse, repeat.  Heck, rebound the Regrowth instead for more fun.  CARD IS GOOD YO

EDIT: Both Narset and Mentor are BFF with Sensei's Top, and all of those cards are very good on their own. Hmmmm

[desolutionist]

What happens when you rebound Yawgmoths Will does it work? Burning Wish?

[gkraigher]

yes on will and burning wish as they are in exile with rebound.

the rebound mechanic seems broken on timewalk.  

Card seems great to me.  Give the mentor decks a new toy already.  I predict Vintage play.  


I'm not sure the $30 price tag is legit for the short term (long term absolutely).  If Ugin is only $35 then this card has to be less.  I think this card is modern playable, but I don't find her to be legacy playable.  Ugin is played in both formats already.  This card also has very little appilcations for EDH outside of Narset Enlightened Master lists.  So the demand for this card should be a little lighter than the deman for Ugin (which is already a classic card and trading $35.)

[MaximumCDawg]

Rebound works just fine with other replacement effects that try to replace the event of going to the graveyard with something else, like Leyline of the Void.  You get to choose which replacement effect to apply.

It DOESNT work with Yawgwill, but for a totally different reason.  Rebound's ability says "If you cast this card from your HAND, do this."  So it won't trigger when you cast something from the YARD with Will.

Note also that it does NOT work with cards that exile themselves in ways that are not replacement effects.  So, in Standard, Temporal Tresspass is a nobo because the card exiles itself as part of its ability.  There's no going-to-the-yard event for Rebound to replace.

the rebound mechanic seems broken on timewalk.  

No more so than a it's broken with a certain green spell we just recently got off the restricted list...

But the point is that rebounding restricted cards multiple times, for free, is crazy.

[gkraigher]

I believe the interaction he was refering to with Yawg Will was that Will exiles it self upon resolution and would not be in the yard.  If you rebound Yaw Will cast from your hand, it would go into exile with rebound and be cast again the next turn.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

Oh yes, she will be really nice. The thing with kiora was that she works with gush only. Once. or twice. Then dies. Kiora draws 2 extra cards in the best case scenario, and you get to explore twice. Which would be nice with the card gush, but otherwise pretty useless most of the time.

Narset on the other hand... Draws cards while ticking up to a game-ending ultimate (I heard cantrips and sensei's top were good on their own), starting with 6/7 loyalty (which basically protects itself just like that) and turns most spells into game-ending must counters.

1.   Narset's +1 is not as good as Jace's +0.  Win for Jace.
2.   Narset's casting cost requires you to be playing White, but once you are, is easier than Jace's to cast.  Wash.
3.   Narset does not disrupt your opponent while building to her ult.  On the other hand, she draws you gas while she's building to her ult, and she gets there far more quickly.  Win for Jace.
4.   Narset does NOT add to the removal slots in your deck, while Jace does.  Win for Jace.
5.   Narset has no innate way of protecting herself.  On the other hand, she starts with a ridiculously high loyalty, and her +1 ability is always relevant as a way to keep her in there.  Unless you're swinging in with Golems or Tinkerbots, Narset is hard to kill quickly in a Vintage game.  Wash.
6.   Narset's second ability is crazy good with spells in Vintage, moreso than any other format.  Giving anything on the restricted list Rebound -- multiple times -- for free on the turn you do it -- is potentially Earth-shatteringly good in this format.  Would you play "Seal of Fork" if you could and it cost 4 mana and you could use it 2 - 3 times before it went away?  I think you might.  Advantage Narset.

1. Yes, Jacestorm is a better effect. Jace stays in bolt range if you do this every turn though. Narset is at 7 loyalty the turn you play it.
2. You're playing white, yes, because you want monastery mentor as well.
3. I don't see how you get to a "win for Jace" here. She ultimates 3 turns after playing her. Her ultimate wins the game in vintage (I know... there are exceptions).
4. that's true. But, if you're staring down at two creatures, you use her -2, then cast swords to plowshares and it will get rid of two creatures for one removal slot. Need to have it in hand though. Jace is still better at this.
5. Jace is dying quickly nowadays when people are playing bolts and 3/2 flying insects and stuff. Narset absorbs a lot of damage if the opponent wants to go that way. I think this is pretty relevant.
6. Yeah, that second ability is crazy good. If you play this with restricted spells it's very often game over. If you pair it with gush you get the "Kiora effect" (kind of): Draw 2 cards now and 2 cards next turn, +1 CA, -1 land compared to kiora. And a planeswalker with 4 loyalty compared to 1.

I mean, even with preordain it's sick. scry 2, draw 1 and again next turn? yes, please.

7. Ah, and rebound is crazy good with mentor, just for the win-more factor.
8. Ah, and notion thief doesn't blow you out, compared to jace . (especially if you're rebounding dig through time)

I agree that she's the deal. The best thing would be to combine her with Jace. Both are good, insane as a team. Still can't have two Jaces on the battlefield.

[MaximumCDawg]

I believe the interaction he was refering to with Yawg Will was that Will exiles it self upon resolution and would not be in the yard.  If you rebound Yaw Will cast from your hand, it would go into exile with rebound and be cast again the next turn.

This is true.  Any cards you cast from your hand during a Will turn will give you the option of exiling them with Narset or with Will.  (Psst choose Narset)

3. I don't see how you get to a "win for Jace" here. She ultimates 3 turns after playing her. Her ultimate wins the game in vintage (I know... there are exceptions).

Because Jace actually wins instantly by disrupting your opponent while he ticks up.  Whenever you get Jace in a situation where you are winning on board, and your opponent has a small hand, his fateseal ability does a very, very good job of ensuring nothing else happens until he ultimates.  So, yes, it takes him longer to get there, but he keeps his boot on the throat of your opponent the whole time.  Narset conditionally does that if you're drawing disruption with her, but she doesn't do it all on her own.

[fsecco]

Honestly she probably fits into most U/W decks right now (angels, Mentor, stoneforge) and remember that rebound actually does work with snapcaster, as if the spell resolves from rebound it does go to the discard pile for you to target.

What I was saying is that her ability won't work with Snapcaster. If you -2 her and then Snap -> Ancestral, it won't get rebound since you didn't play from your hand.

EDIT: My only problem with Narset is that if you haven't any gas in your hand, she's way worse than other cards. Although... hum... if you draw her in a topdeck war and she resolves, she can easily win the game own her own, trying to draw cards while building her ultimate. And if you topdeck something broken... Interesting. Needs testing!

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

I believe the interaction he was refering to with Yawg Will was that Will exiles it self upon resolution and would not be in the yard.  If you rebound Yaw Will cast from your hand, it would go into exile with rebound and be cast again the next turn.

This is true.  Any cards you cast from your hand during a Will turn will give you the option of exiling them with Narset or with Will.  (Psst choose Narset)

3. I don't see how you get to a "win for Jace" here. She ultimates 3 turns after playing her. Her ultimate wins the game in vintage (I know... there are exceptions).

Because Jace actually wins instantly by disrupting your opponent while he ticks up.  Whenever you get Jace in a situation where you are winning on board, and your opponent has a small hand, his fateseal ability does a very, very good job of ensuring nothing else happens until he ultimates.  So, yes, it takes him longer to get there, but he keeps his boot on the throat of your opponent the whole time.  Narset conditionally does that if you're drawing disruption with her, but she doesn't do it all on her own.

You're right. The "Whenever you get Jace in a situation where you are winning on board, and your opponent has a small hand" part suggests this isn't the case at all times. you often have to get there first. I know i have won many games with Jace fateseal, but usually I had to use his brainstorm ability a few times before getting to that point (e.g. having some counters in hand). With narset, the opponent's hand size doesn't matter too much. You gain card advantage while putting the opponent on a 3 turn clock all on her own. (Jace wins all on his own, too. I'm not going to say this is better than jace.)

[Protoaddict]

The biggest selling point to me is that she fits into decks that already run 3ish Jace but can be on the field with him at the same time and provide sick synergies. Basically both her first abilities work perfectly well with Jaces first 2 and none of her abilities conflict with any of Jaces.

Maybe she is a 1 of in a lot of lists if only to provide resistance to Meddling mage or Surgical Extraction effects and a little reach as what she does is not directly comparable to Jace, as Jace cannot double your timewalks. Maybe she even adds some utility to the delve timewalk which was still fringe to me but now that TC is restricted.

That is still very playable and defining to me. Honestly I see her biggest competition as Dack, since both are amazing cards but pull in different directions.

[MaximumCDawg]

Yeah, 2 Jace and 2 Narset as curve-toppers in a blue/white control or esper deck seems really good.

[Ten-Ten]

This card is definitely an instant fave for me. The thing is that this walker doesn't really push existing decks in any new direction. This does what other more efficient cards do already.
Also, Mentor decks don't need this walker. Jace and Dack make more sense there. ( personally I like Monastery Seige with Mentor)
 Eventually what will determine its viability is how well it holds up against Shop decks, Dredge and Fast combo decks.

I can see a few people try this card but I don't see long term success.

[JarofFortune]

This card is definitely an instant fave for me. The thing is that this walker doesn't really push existing decks in any new direction. This does what other more efficient cards do already.
Also, Mentor decks don't need this walker. Jace and Dack make more sense there. ( personally I like Monastery Seige with Mentor)
 Eventually what will determine its viability is how well it holds up against Shop decks, Dredge and Fast combo decks.

I can see a few people try this card but I don't see long term success.

Why measure this card based on the dredge and fast combo matchups? Jace is THE Planeswalker of the format, but since when has Jace been an all-star against those decks?

[Protoaddict]

She is in white and blue, which means you have access to rest in peace, force of will, flusterstorm, Grafdiggers cage, Rule of law effects, and more. If you cant find a way to combat those decks your doing something else wrong, because this card is not for those things.

[Ten-Ten]

This card is definitely an instant fave for me. The thing is that this walker doesn't really push existing decks in any new direction. This does what other more efficient cards do already.
Also, Mentor decks don't need this walker. Jace and Dack make more sense there. ( personally I like Monastery Seige with Mentor)
 Eventually what will determine its viability is how well it holds up against Shop decks, Dredge and Fast combo decks.

I can see a few people try this card but I don't see long term success.

Why measure this card based on the dredge and fast combo matchups? Jace is THE Planeswalker of the format, but since when has Jace been an all-star against those decks?

I wasn't measuring her against jace against said match ups. Just saying why play her then if you have access to Jace?
She is simply too slow on her own to win against Shops or Dredge. Where Jace is a win-con.
She seems win-more alongside mentor and does very little otherwise.
Also, if the argument is she fits well in slower controlled builds, why not just Gifts ungiven or Fact or Fiction?

All that said, I will still pick up a playset  once they drop to ~$10 a piece.

[serracollector]

I would like to try her out in something with lots of fetches and maybe one mana severance. Would make her plus one simply a draw engine and help get her ultimate going asap.

[diopter]

In another era, this would have been a fantastic build-around.

Today, I'm not sure this is where you want to be. The metagame is trending towards tempo decks with all sorts of virtual advantages within their 75s. Grindy, medium-mana decks like the 4-Bob/3-Jace decks of old are in tough due to many awkward openers and sequences. A deck with Narset would likely be so grindy.

Moreover, in today's metagame I really think the top-of-the-curve planeswalkers need to be fantastic midgame topdecks and also ensure a steady stream of spells. Dack is amazing at clearing off excess mana from the top of your deck. Jace is pretty good too, though these days I don't even want to be Jacing, the cost is so prohibitive.

Narset followed by a land, land sequence would be the absolute worst. It's fast to ultimate, but I fear you'll never get there - way too many Blasts floating around.

[sirgog]

The comparison to JtMS is accurate (in Vintage only; elsewhere the card's power level is in line with Brimaz or Courser - 'a good card' but nothing more).

Narset's ultimate is actually better than Jace's as it shuts down all of the best creatures in the format except Delver as well as all non-creatures. Mentor is a Pearled Unicorn. Young Pyromancer becomes a Goblin Piker. Etc.

The +1 is three quarters of a card in Vintage and should help you draw stuff to protect her. The -2 will be useful sometimes too, as it makes cantrips important to counter. Not just premier cantrips like Brainstorm, Ancestral and the like either - Gitaxian Probe is kinda bad to let resolve when it has Rebound.

[MaximumCDawg]

Moreover, in today's metagame I really think the top-of-the-curve planeswalkers need to be fantastic midgame topdecks and also ensure a steady stream of spells. Dack is amazing at clearing off excess mana from the top of your deck. Jace is pretty good too, though these days I don't even want to be Jacing, the cost is so prohibitive.

She's way more resilient than Jace in a meta full of 2/x and 3/x creatures, though.  Ditto in one where people lean on Bolt as an answer to walkers and creatures.  She can do her thing for a few turns and just soak up the hits.

[The Atog Lord]

This is a much worse mid-game topdeck than Jace. Jace is a great card to rip if you have nothing in hand and only some lands in play. Narset? She'll draw you a card. Sometimes. Othertimes, not so much.

But her ability is even worse than drawing a card. You have to reveal the card first! This diminishes the value of cards such as Mental Misstep, which rely in part on their surprise factor to be powerful.

And those are reasons she is worse than Jace. But I haven't wanted to play with Jace himself in quite a while. Jace's hobbies include dying to Pyroblast and dying to Lightning Bolt and being trampled by hordes of Monks and Elementals. Plus, at four mana, your Gush-playing opponent has already gotten way ahead on board. Now, there was a time when I was playing Jace himself in my Gush decks. He let you transform those otherwise-dead Gushed-up lands into live cards. But, Dack does that for one mana cheaper, while also being a game-breaking card against Workshops.

So, long story short, Narset seems worse than Jace, who himself isn't great right now.

As a final thought, suppose I were forced to include Narset in a deck. Maybe I lost a bet. I'd team her up with Spirit of the Labyrinth, because she can generate card advantage with Bowie in the room. That all said, I suspect Jace may still be better in such a shell.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

This is a much worse mid-game topdeck than Jace. Jace is a great card to rip if you have nothing in hand and only some lands in play. Narset? She'll draw you a card. Sometimes. Othertimes, not so much.

But her ability is even worse than drawing a card. You have to reveal the card first! This diminishes the value of cards such as Mental Misstep, which rely in part on their surprise factor to be powerful.

And those are reasons she is worse than Jace. But I haven't wanted to play with Jace himself in quite a while. Jace's hobbies include dying to Pyroblast and dying to Lightning Bolt and being trampled by hordes of Monks and Elementals. Plus, at four mana, your Gush-playing opponent has already gotten way ahead on board. Now, there was a time when I was playing Jace himself in my Gush decks. He let you transform those otherwise-dead Gushed-up lands into live cards. But, Dack does that for one mana cheaper, while also being a game-breaking card against Workshops.

So, long story short, Narset seems worse than Jace, who himself isn't great right now.

As a final thought, suppose I were forced to include Narset in a deck. Maybe I lost a bet. I'd team her up with Spirit of the Labyrinth, because she can generate card advantage with Bowie in the room. That all said, I suspect Jace may still be better in such a shell.

100% agree. Best post yet!

[fsecco]

Rich, I agree with you. I just think that in a topdeck war Narset can be great, since she can end the game quickly and/or duplicate anything you topdeck after her. That said. Jace and Gifts are also awesome in topdeck wars...

[keys]

Narset does very little without library manipulation or something relevant to Rebound. Despite her high loyalty, none of her abilities protect her from any sort of attack, either.