[Free Podcast] So Many Insane Plays Podcast Episode 48: Battle for Zendikar

[CHA1N5]

http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-podcast-episode-48-battle-for-zendikar/

Kevin Cron and Steve Menendian review Battle for Zendikar for Vintage.

0:00:00: Announcements
0:00:00: Magic Origins Report Card
0:45:00: Battle for Zendikar Mechanics
0:55:38: Titan’s Presence
0:59:09: Void Winnower
1:13:40: Painful Truths
1:25:27: Vampiric Rites
1:28:27: Smothering Abomination
1:39:25: Molten Nursery
1:43:49: Radiant Flames
2:02:03: Greenwarden of Murasa
2:10:57: Bring to Light
2:19:45: Kiora, Master of the Depths
2:39:23: Sire of Stagnation
2:44:44: Aligned Hedron Network
3:02:21: Blighted Cataract
3:07:22: Blighted Fen
3:12:47: Listener Feedback: Trigger Rules
Total runtime: 3:34:04

[Smmenen]

Another loooong podcast.  But we do think, surprisingly, that a few of these cards will see Vintage play. 

[ajfirecracker]

Listening to this with the restrictions on my mind highlights the impact of Dig Through Time and Chalice (more generally, Workshops as a whole). So many of these cards require discussion of DTT or the Workshop archetype to analyse the card and come to a prediction.

Do you think any of your predictions are really thrown off by the restriction? Dig in particular sounded critical to the playability of some of these cards.

[CHA1N5]

Listening to this with the restrictions on my mind highlights the impact of Dig Through Time and Chalice (more generally, Workshops as a whole). So many of these cards require discussion of DTT or the Workshop archetype to analyse the card and come to a prediction.

Do you think any of your predictions are really thrown off by the restriction? Dig in particular sounded critical to the playability of some of these cards.

Well-observed.  I think the shifts in the environment could undermine most of our predictions:
- Radiant Flames: Mentor's role in the environment is subject to great change
- Aligned Hedron Network: upheaval in Workshops means dramatic influence on this card's place. If Null Rod becomes staple, Forgemaster becomes almost entirely unplayable.
- Kiora: Thirst decks might become better Thought Scour decks than the existing Thought Scour decks, which our analysis is predicated upon.
etc.

[Chubby Rain]

I'm working my way through the podcast and thought I would chime in on the Jace report card. First of all, I really appreciated how Kevin and Steve looked into their initial assessment of the card and examined how they arrived at their position, how subsequent experience with Jace differed from that initial assessment, and then performed a kind of root-cause analysis. Card evaluation is tricky business and I think this type of approach really helps the listener improve their card evaluation skills. Second, I agree wholehearted that a critical component in a card's Vintage success is being championed by individual players. In Standard, the card pool is limited and the player base is massive so most strategies are fully explored and honestly, Standard has a major problem in that it tends to be "solved" quickly. This was the main reason Wizards decided to go to a more rapid rotation format along with limiting the number of published MODO results. On the other hand, Vintage has arguably the largest card pool and empirically the smallest player base. I believe there are many strategies that haven't been tapped yet and it takes players like Brian Kelly to look at a card or strategy and run with it. Finally, I feel Steve is 100% right when he says that Jace's impact hasn't been fully realized. I played Jace in "Keeper" (I considered the deck to be more of a Gifts shell) and Dragon because of my personal affinity for less popular strategies, but Josh Potucek recently top 8'd Top Deck Games with a couple of Jaces in a Delver/Pyromancer/Gush shell and I had several viable Mentor/Delver/Control builds with Jace that had seen success in testing that I didn't yet have the opportunity to bring to a tournament. Unfortunately, going to have to go back to the drawing board with those decks...

In any case, I thought this part of the podcast was excellent and look forward to listening to the rest.

[CHA1N5]

Thanks, Matt.  One thing we've been emphasizing more in our evaluations of cards, for the past few sets, is the difference between "playable" and "played".  Many more cards are "playable" than are "played" and due to the size and quirks of the community we end up predicting both metagames and human nature when it comes to borderline cases   I DO believe you were the tip of the spear as it pertains to Jace and that the relative smallness of our miss on our predictions for him is deceptively large.

[nedleeds]

Thanks for taking the time to produce this.

New Kiora's primary purpose for me is keeping the dream of a vintage Stasis deck alive She is arguably better for Stasis than our current Stasis 'Lock' planeswalkers Ral and Garruk. She untaps the Island and possibly your win condition (a creature?) or just untaps another U producing creature. And eventually she can crap 24 power worth of seafood on the table.

Perhaps the release of Commander 2015 (likely to have more Vintage playables than BFZ) and the B&R announcement will provide enough fuel for a mid-Fall episode.

-Sean

[CHA1N5]

And eventually she can crap 24 power worth of seafood on the table.

LMAO

Well: Ingesting and processing are themes of this set, so...

[MtgVector]

Another fantastic episode guys, thank you so much.

I just wanted to mention a card that I feel was hastily brushed away: Bring to Light

I'm going to borrow a concept that I read in another article discussing Bring to Light, namely that it's a modal spell, and the modes are its target. Just to quickly illustrate this concept, first I took a Grixis Thieves list for example this list http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/vintage-grixis-thieves#online. If you insert Bring to Light in this list, and just for simplicity let us assume we can always cast it for Converge = 4 and I'm going to limit the targets to just a few strong spells. Then the cards would read as follows:

Bring to Light
1UBGR
Choose One:

• Tinker
• Yawgmoth's Will
• Demonic Tutor
• Time Walk
• Ancestral Recall
• Notion Thief
• Time Twister

Putting this card with this perspective, would you still dismiss it?

[Smmenen]

Dismiss isn't quite the right word - we did an analysis of what the card could do and its possible applications. I even referenced the invitational card I designed. Grim Tutor and Dark Petition illustrate the bounds for high cost tutors in Vintage.  Petition, if it resolves, only costs 2 mana, with a top heavy initial investment, and it's only a fringe playable at this point.  Grim Tutor is used, if at all, as a 1-of at this time. 

[MtgVector]

Dismiss isn't quite the right word - we did an analysis of what the card could do and its possible applications. I even referenced the invitational card I designed. Grim Tutor and Dark Petition illustrate the bounds for high cost tutors in Vintage.  Petition, if it resolves, only costs 2 mana, with a top heavy initial investment, and it's only a fringe playable at this point.  Grim Tutor is used, if at all, as a 1-of at this time.  

I equated "appearances = 0" to "dismiss", perhaps an oversimplification.

I like the comparison to Dark Petition, I think this is a great pivoting point. Setting aside the mana restrictions that both cards offer, the fundamental difference is that when Dark Petition is cast, the targets can be more or less be narrowed down (in my experience, these usually are Yawgmoth's Will, Tendrils, Black Lotus or Necropotence). Moreover, one can choose to let it resolve and counter the tutored card because it's more valuable to have their card hit the graveyard. Whereas with Bring to Light, the tutored card is cast on resolution, therefore there is no chance for the opponent to counter it. Edit: this is incorrect, the tutored card remains on the stack after BtL finishes resolving.

In my opinion, if Dark Petition is fringe playable, Bring to Light is at least as playable.

[Chubby Rain]

I equated "appearances = 0" to "dismiss", perhaps an oversimplification.

In my opinion, if Dark Petition is fringe playable, Bring to Light is at least as playable.

Steve and Kevin spent some time talking about how a card being "playable" does not necessarily translate into Top 8 appearances. It takes someone to champion and play the card, along with a little bit of luck, to top 8 a tournament. In my opinion, there are plenty of Vintage cards out there that are "playable" but just haven't been explored by Vintage players and taken to tournaments. Heck, I won a set of MTGO power with Vedalken Aethermage in my maindeck and that card was actually quite good for me (not sure anyone else has given it a try).

As far as Bring to Light vs. Dark Petition, I agree they are functionally similar but Dark Petition has a very clear home in Dark Ritual based storm decks whereas Bring to Light does not have a clear fit in current (possibly even past) decks. Looking at the top 64 of worlds, 6 decks ran Tropical Island. Five were Oath and the other was Gush Storm. It's possible it will see play and top 8 but I think it will take innovation on a single player's part to make that happen.

[birds of paradise]

Haven't listened to this podcast yet, but i'm already excited for the next one. Can't wait for you to bite into the bannings and new TFK decks!

[nedleeds]

finished listening to this

... in the errors and omissions department Kevin mentions Meddling Mage as being the first of its kind to feature both players being unable to play/cast a named card or class of cards. Both City in a Bottle and Null Chamber predate the mighty Pikula.

re: Managorger

I shipped my buddy and better player Jack (jakgotbak) the Gorger list and he had some feedback after playing it to top 4. He lost in the top 4, getting Tinkered twice.

He said in email,

"going forward, I'm going to make sure I have a maindeck answer to Notion Thief, because that card is way too good if the only thing I have against it is Force of Will."

We threw around Darkblast, Dismember, or your own Thief none seemed fantastic. The only real reason to try BUG Gush with Hydra over the generally superior token producers is you get to play the token hosers like Illness and both Plagues. As you stated a DRS is probably an auto-include if you are playing green demonic tutor. It's not tier one but I think people don't realize at first that the Hydra triggers on every single spell, and tramples.


-Sean

[serracollector]

I think Kevin is really on spot bout Painful Truths. Three is miles ahead of two in magic. With the restriction of Chalice allowing Mox Opal to run around with his friends I really think this card is gonna be a consistent Drop Three or Four mana sources refill my grip with goodies turn one.

[serracollector]

I just wanted to thank you guys for this great cast and some of the insight on certain cards. I know you probably dont give two hoots about standard but that fact that Radiant Flames and Mentor and Jeskai Ascendency are all in standard (along with four treasure cruise I might add) has been amazingly good and fun to play. Being able to wipe my opponents board while creating an army or make my army big enough to get a critical swing has been amazing. Thank you s much again. Keep up the good work guys.

[MtgVector]

I equated "appearances = 0" to "dismiss", perhaps an oversimplification.

In my opinion, if Dark Petition is fringe playable, Bring to Light is at least as playable.

Steve and Kevin spent some time talking about how a card being "playable" does not necessarily translate into Top 8 appearances. It takes someone to champion and play the card, along with a little bit of luck, to top 8 a tournament. In my opinion, there are plenty of Vintage cards out there that are "playable" but just haven't been explored by Vintage players and taken to tournaments. Heck, I won a set of MTGO power with Vedalken Aethermage in my maindeck and that card was actually quite good for me (not sure anyone else has given it a try).

As far as Bring to Light vs. Dark Petition, I agree they are functionally similar but Dark Petition has a very clear home in Dark Ritual based storm decks whereas Bring to Light does not have a clear fit in current (possibly even past) decks. Looking at the top 64 of worlds, 6 decks ran Tropical Island. Five were Oath and the other was Gush Storm. It's possible it will see play and top 8 but I think it will take innovation on a single player's part to make that happen.

You are absolutely correct, I completely forgot about this discussion. I was taking to full value the threshold to be power level rather than a combination of home/metagame/champion etc.

[mmcgeach]

Whereas with Bring to Light, the tutored card is cast on resolution, therefore there is no chance for the opponent to counter it.

"cast on resolution" means that spell you tutor for is put onto the stack.  Then Bring to Light finishes resolving, then both players get priority while the tutored spell is on the stack, and it can be countered.

[MtgVector]

You are absolutely correct. I was misinterpreting "cast" as "resolving".