Painter

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

Let me preface by saying that painter has been a pet deck of mine since a long time, but the important ideas for my painter decks mostly came from Rich Shay. The first time I played painter was at the bazaar of Moxen III in 2009 to a DQ finish due to my inexperience in tournaments. http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37907.msg527792#msg527792 this deck ran mystic remora and commandeers and was inspired by rich shay's "Shaymora" List with remoras and meditates. Back then, all the fancy counters hadn't been printed yet... REB was the most efficient you could get: conditional hard counter for R.
I wrote a primer about the "Bishop's Painter" list in 2011: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=42294.msg585805#msg585805
I don't claim any of those lists was optimal, of course. But they were powerful and sometimes unbeatable.

After the restriction of chalice, Rich Shay and brassman suggested the deck once more. Independently, I had been working on a list that is very similar to theirs. right now, we have discussion about the deck spread in the following topics, which I would like to condense in this thread.

Rich Shay's discussion in tournament results http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=48131.0
this article by joe fiorini http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=48146.0

A mention in the discussion about the new metagame:

This past weekend has revealed to me a couple of things:
(...)
#3. Painter is good.  Too good.  I don't know if it had any decent finishes this weekend, but it's a challenging deck to play against. It has a lot of great draw, blue
control, and a cheap combo. It's the most efficient Big Blue deck we have so far.  Oath could potentionally one-up Painter by maindecking Gaea's Blessings.

Painter has some inherent strengths and weaknesses, and I'll start with pretty obvious ones:

The kill:
You need painter + grindstone. This is 6 mana total, split 1-2-3. The combo is hit by almost any hate in the format: creature removal, artifact removal, null rod / stony silence, needle/revoker. Needle and revoker are small problems, because you can hit them with REBs. Rod and stony are bigger ones because they shut off your mana. abrupt decay is a nightmare. Chalice was awful, because a chalice on 1 game 1 meant you literally only had tinker as an out. Once you have the important half out though, all your blasts are boss. And this is the reason to run the deck. pyroblast/REB.

other considerations regarding the combo:
You can win in the 4th extra turn, unless they run blightsteel colossus. Against oath that runs either emrakul or gaeas blessing, you cannot mill them just like this. In these situations you need to find ancestral recall or yawgmoth's will and either target them with recall in response to the triggers or mill yourself, then cast yawgmoth's will targeting them with recall in response to the triggers once you mill them. Post board, you can bring in nihil spellbomb as another out.

It has a structural advantage against blue decks because of all it's maindeck REBs. REB's are hit by misstep, so you want missteps to protect them. This makes you run many dead cards against shops.

The sideboard should consist of MUD and dredge hate which must overlap with oath hate because you only run painter + REB as solutions and few hard counters maindeck. I haven't found a solution for creature decks yet.

You can't run REBs and missteps and fluster and drain and gush and thirst and dack and Boy Jace and all the tutors and solutions. So you cut the solutions, because REB. And you also cut most unconditional counters because REB.
This leaves painter decks generally weak against creatures, especially dark confidant (but merfolk is a pain too, even with REB).

Good matchups:
Blue decks.
MUD without chalice.
Dredge (combo kill and ample draw + hate)

Problematic matchups:
Standstill

Bad matchups:
BUG fish
Merfolk
Delver (the card, turn 1)

Enough theory, here come decklists. First, I would like to start with Rich Shay's recent list:

// The Win
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Tinker
3 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone

// Walkers
2 Tiny Jace
1 Dack Fayden

// Control
4 Force of Will
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Mental Misstep
1 Mana Drain

// Draw
4 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Gush
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Dig Through Time
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll

// Splash
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

// Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

// Land
4 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

// Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Shattering Spree
3 Ingot Chewer
1 Illness in the Ranks
1 Mountain
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Grafdigger's Cage

He plays the classical thirst for knowledge "eot" approach. Notable from his first list is the reduced number of drains and grindstone: Grindstone is the worst card in the deck, it's almost dead, even if you can eot mill yourself for delve or will or disrupt topdeck tutors. I have found mana drain has no place in painter decks.

My list that I piloted to a top4 in Zurich, Switzerland this weekend, features mystic remora again. (28 people, having to defeat my brother in top8 and then being knocked out by my own deck that I suggested to a friend in top4 ("christmasland.dec" with thieves and draw7s).
I was 3-0-2 in the swiss:

// The Win
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Tinker
3 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone

// Walkers
1 Dack Fayden (at least 1 boy jace should probably be in there somewhere, but while testing he was always too slow and I didn't have the time for a 1U do something next turn maybe.)
// Control
4 Force of Will
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Mental Misstep (having MORE derpstep was important, especially with remora)
1 flusterstorm (having an out to a tendrils player who bravely plays into remora, i.e. my brother)

// Draw
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Gush
2 Mystic Remora (Auto-Win against many a deck, don't blindly play it turn 1, play it with backup and some mana out, then milk it.)
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Dig Through Time
1 Sensei's Divining Top (better than ponder with remoras)
1 Merchant Scroll

// Splash
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

// Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

// Land
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island (having enough basics is important with remora and against BUG/MUD)
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine (an out to library of alexandria, tolarian academy, cavern of souls, 61th card and 15th land for remora, freeing one SB spot). Underperformed in the tournament, but was often good in testing.

// Sideboard
1 Flusterstorm (against blue or gushstorm. Should this be misdirection?)
1 engineered explosives (never used it, I like the card but maybe it should be something else against creatures. volcanic fallout? Fire/ice? Llawan, Cephalid Empress?)
2 Shattering Spree (also bring 1 in against Big Mox.dec)
3 Ingot Chewer
1 Illness in the Ranks
1 Mountain
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 pithing needle (demonic into needle saved me against Kulthoda Forgemaster, allowing me to topdeck into Lotus + painter with treasure cruise after losing g1 with blightsteel on board to a topdecked tangle wire).

My version is even more geared against blue than Rich's. The remoras are allstars now that everyone plays moxen and not a delver turn 1 then beat you to death. Together with the full set of missteps and a flusterstorm, the counter suite is very hard to beat.
The match I lost in the top 4 was against a Grixis Thieves deck I designed. I had two horrible hands game one and failed to draw a second blue source for several turns in spite of resolving ancestral recall turn one.

[Holden1669]

Thanks for the writeup. I'm looking forward to trying Remora. I'm surprised that your sideboard doesn't have even more shops hate given how skewed the maindeck is towards fighting blue.

[Wagner]

Considering your sideboard is half 1 mana artifacts and Grindstone is your worst card, have you thought about Trinket Mage? Would help get the toolbox and allow you to run only 1 Grindstone.

[lizardking1545]

Maybe this is a dumb idea but would a Lab Maniac be worth considering at all?  Mill yourself eot and win on the draw? 

[Wagner]

Maybe this is a dumb idea but would a Lab Maniac be worth considering at all?  Mill yourself eot and win on the draw? 

Milling the opponent wins just as well and doesn't require a Maniac.

[lizardking1545]

Maybe this is a dumb idea but would a Lab Maniac be worth considering at all?  Mill yourself eot and win on the draw? 

Milling the opponent wins just as well and doesn't require a Maniac.

I was thinking about the Eldrazi situtation

[Wagner]

Maybe this is a dumb idea but would a Lab Maniac be worth considering at all?  Mill yourself eot and win on the draw? 

Milling the opponent wins just as well and doesn't require a Maniac.

I was thinking about the Eldrazi situtation

Extract is cheaper and does mostly the same thing.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

As I said, you need to have yawgmoth's will in hand, mill yourself eot, then play a huge will, mill the opponent, then ancestral recall them in return. Post board you don't need extract, because they might be running two emrakuls or one and a blightsteel. This is the same as having maniac in play cmc-wise and doesn't require you to run more bad cards (will already is quite clunky).

re: more artifact hate in the board:

With 2+1 basics and the 6-7 hate pieces (+ 3 chewer, 2 spree,1 mountain, 1 needle, 1 explosives) mud is fine in my experience, because they only have 1 chalice now. I board like this: -4 misstep, -1 flusterstorm, - 1-3 REBs, -2 Remora on the draw or against robot-heavy lists.

Trinket mage I have thought about, but it seems a bit slow, especially with remora. Running two grindstones is still fine, one card has to be the worst and you can always pitch it to thirst, plus it enables desperate topdeck wins.
Being able to just luck into wins is one of the reasons to play this deck: you often just happen to have an undeserved win in a tough spot because you assemble the contraption.

[Chaam]

I've decided to put this deck together. Here is my initial list. Is there something I'm missing or not considering?

Artifact (11)
1x Black Lotus
2x Grindstone
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring

Creature (4)
1x Blightsteel Colossus
3x Painter's Servant

Enchantment (1)
1x Fastbond

Instant (27)
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Brainstorm
1x Dig Through Time
4x Force of Will
4x Gush
4x Mana Drain
4x Mental Misstep
4x Pryoblast
4x Thirst for Knowledge

Sorcery (3)
1x Time Walk
1x Tinker
1x Treasure Cruise

Land (14)
2x Island
2x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Tolarian Academy
2x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
2x Ancient Grudge
4x Grafdigger's Cage
4x Ingot Chewer
1x Mountain
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Tormod's Crypt

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

@ chaam:
I haven't tested your list at all, but here are some considerations:

As described in the opening post, I think you really need the black splash for demonic tutor and yawgmoth's will. Especially if you play fastbond, then you might want vampiric tutor as well. Seeing as how you don't run any mass removal, this would also be important to be able to win quickly when you are under pressure.

Also, 4 gush, 4 mana drain, 4 thirst for knowledge is kind of excessive. Merchant Scroll is surely better than any one of these cards.
Also, in a deck with so many gushes and fastbond, you would want preordains to put lands to the bottom of the library. Dack Fayden, although a card I side out often, helps with excess lands, too.

Against DPS (Dark Petition Storm), mana drains are very slow and you need some flusterstorms or mindbreak trap. Otherwise you get rolled.
You literally have 0 answers to cards with the storm ability on them.

--------------
Small Tournament report:

I took the deck to a 21 man tournament in zurich this sunday. Most of the local ringers were there, except my brother and the other friend I faced in top8 last time. We plaed 5 rounds to top8.

Round one I played against a blue deck. I saw seat of the synod and moxen. I had early painter and some board control with dack, REB, strip mine into the combo.
2:0

round two was against Dredge. I was on the draw and knew what he was up to. I tried my luck with a bad hand that consisted of a bunch of mana, lotus and everything. I didn't draw a threat in time.

Game two I mulligan into 6 containing nihil spellbomb and cage. At some point, he plays chewer on the cage. I cashed in spellbomb in resp even though he only had one bridge. Maybe I should have waited. In the draw off the spellbomb, I drew cage. I protected it for a long time until I drew the win.

Game three, I cut him to a 1 card hand without bazaar. He refused to powder his first hand because it contained three bridges and promptly mulled to oblivion. I had turn 1 cage into turn 2 tinker into blightsteel. It was the only time in the tournament I cast tinker. blightsteel was useful sometimes though, to discard it to thirst.

2:0

Round 3, against mono white hate.dec.

I concede game 1 quickly to varied lock pieces which create a puzzle I won't torture my head to try and solve and we go on to a lenghty g2 which features much more of the same, but I am able to handle threats like mindcensor here and there thanks to painter, who also blocks all of
 his other creatures and later go from 3 to 1 life with toxic deluge to wipe his board and win.
2:0:1

Round 4, I play against the runner-up of this year's league, he's on and he demolishes me in two games that involve first turn recall into dack fayden or treasure cruise and some suboptimal plays on my part, with us both having remora and me in a good board position (untap and win). I gave the very close games away somehow.

Win and in round 5, I play against a blue deck, I think it included mentors. I have mana crypt turn one both games, into quick combo kills.

Top8 I play Against a good friend of mine, he's on some grixis therapy list.

G1 I play island into remora, into turn 2 strip mine his underground sea, keeping him on one mana for several turns while I pay for remora with land drops and he discards down to hand size. Eventually, remora dies, he finds land, but I'm too far ahead.
G2 we had an epic battle where he squeezed out a win.
G3 He has the dreaded mulligan to 6 with double probe and other free cards, but no mana. He doesn't find any in time.

Top4 against Dark Petition Storm:
G1 I counter everything he plays thanks to remora, but then he casts Mind's Desire which I flusterstorm. As he wants to move the desire to the grave, the top8 friend from before automatically shouts out hey, you could pay two! which he does. I get a bit angry, but he didn't do it on purpose and I let him resolve his two copies, as I still have force + blue card. Sadly, he reveals petition and necropotence. Necro resolves, and I stupidly counter petition instead of the yawgmoth's will he would have got. At least I get another turn, and I play grindstone. He untaps with 7 and plays stuff into will, into dark petition. In response, I activate grindstone, flip over land and tendrils of agony not. I concede and tilt around a bit.

G2 I open with land, mox, nihil spellbomb with counter up into turn 2 mystic remora. the remora idles for a few turns, draws me a card maybe or not, but he doesn't do anything. Remora dies and is replaced by the second one. I think I also have library. At some pint, he resolves a dark petition, but spell mastery is not there because I crack nihil in response. I get another turn and out combo him.

G3 he opens with land, mox, defense grid, which forces me to 1 for 1 it with shattering spree. Later, he gets another one, but I assemble mana. We flood like crazy, so that a bit later, I have 7 mana and still no clock thanks to double painter and tolarian, which allows me to play a free and a 1cc counter. He's also flooded, so that flusterstorm doesn't do anything when he casts empty for 8 tokens, putting me on a two turn clock. I topdeck demonic tutor.

In the finals, I play against an Oath deck.
Game 1, I have Jace, the bigdaddy early.
Game 2, I have a mental misstep/pyro heavy hand, which matches his ancestral recall/misstep/force hand nicely. I then get my own recall countered to have a misdirection-protected cage. We flood a bit, he casts lotus griselbrand with protection, but I have force plus REB.
I have jace. Jace controls the game, leaves a griselbrand on top, brainstorms, does what he has always done: put games away all on his own and winning the tournament (triple force and altered trophy empty the warrens).

It's all a bit hazy, I haven't slept enough, but testing with and against dark petition storm certainly helped.

Some observations in no order and no rememberance in games:

- I always boarded out tinker blightsteel and dack, except against dredge and hate. I could also board it out there to null the cages.
- I almost never used misdirection.
- Library of alexandria drew some cards and didn't cost me a game.
- Big daddy Jace is boss. I played him because I didn't have boy jace. Would keep it that way, even with gush, pyroblast etc.
- Mystic remora is a triggered laser gun.
- Untap, randomly draw into the combo, win, is often a good solution for weird boardstates.
- Strip mine took a game.

Here's the list:

Artifact: 11
1 Black Lotus
2 Grindstone
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring

Creature: 4
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Painter's Servant

Enchantment: 2
2 Mystic Remora

Instant: 22
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Dig Through Time
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Gush
3 Mental Misstep
1 Misdirection
3 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Thirst for Knowledge

Land: 15
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

Planeswalker: 2
1 Dack Fayden
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorcery: 5
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Sideboard: 15

3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle

2 Ingot Chewer
2 Shattering Spree
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mountain

1 Flusterstorm
2 Toxic Deluge

In the new metagame with more dark petition, I would maybe go down to 4 blasts (play 2-2 spilt because of therapy) and add the 4th misstep. I would suggest not taking out misdirection as it's the only answer there is to abrupt decay, but it wasn't very good. If you're not afraid, this slot is free for another metagame card, maybe move the fluster main or a mindbreak trap.
I you see a lot of merfolk, there is always the secret tech of llawan, cephalid emperor, which is useful together with painter for any creature. But deluge is just fine, too.

I have never cared for mana drain in the remora deck. Love me some cheap, situational counters.