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Author Topic: WotC cracking down on proxies, even in non-sanctioned events  (Read 18611 times)
thecrav
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« on: January 11, 2016, 10:07:52 pm »

FaceBook post from an LGS:
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2016, 10:15:39 pm »

My response a separate post to ensure a clear line between facts and my opinions:

My post from MTGTheSource:

Quote
According to Wizards Play Network policy, *no* proxies are allowed at WPN-sanctioned venues, regardless of whether the event is sanctioned or not.

That's... actually pretty insane. That's not just no proxy events. That's no proxy play testing. That's no proxy gold fishing. That's telling game stores that if you see someone with a magic card with sharpie on the back, they need to ask the player to leave or their ability to host DCI events and receive WotC product will be removed.

Whether the correspondence (they said it was a phone call) actually said no proxies vs no proxy events is something only WotC and the store owner will know.

I haven't seen the WPN agreement but based on some of the other recent drama in the Magic world, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that this no proxy rule isn't included. Can anyone confirm/disconfirm this?

To be quite honest, I'm surprised after some recent events that someone hasn't started an independent sanctioning group. Actually... not all that surprised. So many Magic players hate the status quo but are too lazy to correct it.

WotC's approval is only required for PlanesWalkerPoints, GPTs, PPTQs, buying product at wholesale, and being listed on WotC's site. Am I missing any other direct benefits to being a WPN store?

Additional thoughts re: vintage

The vintage community seems to me to be more tight-knit. It has a high concentration of people who like to get shit done. Aside from opinions regarding proxies, every vintage player I've ever interacted with didn't care whether an event was sanctioned. I think the primary effect this is likely to have on the Vintage community is moving proxy events from the back room of the LGS to other venues. This would have the side effect of making it harder for new players to get in.

So uh... who's in for returning to an ELO system for our new vintage sanctioning system?
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2016, 10:42:05 pm »

If you buy a pack of magic cards, Big Brother will be watching
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2016, 10:59:44 pm »

Never thought about player-sanctioning for Vintage events. Seems a great idea. It's what some Old School players do with their Pimpwalkers points. I'd be willing to help organize that.

The thing is, if the trouble is playing with proxies in WPN STORES, then we have a problem, since even if we organized a parallel sanctioning group, where would people play?
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2016, 11:23:03 pm »

Mhm, do we know if this is actually wotc policy or just a random guy on their organised play team misunderstanding stuff/ going crazy?

I mean it wouldn't surprise me if they decided on something like this given that they're well, wotc, albeit it seems way too hard to police and impractical to implement. If that's the case getting good locations to play is going to be a pain though.
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brianpk80
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2016, 12:31:17 am »

The store owner may have read through some fine print that hasn't really been enforced.  Vintage Proxy Events were tacitly condoned in an article in the last 12-18 months by Wizards where they highlighted the availability of proxy events for people looking to become interested in the format.  It was notable because it was a direct change from the stance circulating by them 4-5 years ago. 
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2016, 02:03:23 am »

The store owner may have read through some fine print that hasn't really been enforced.  Vintage Proxy Events were tacitly condoned in an article in the last 12-18 months by Wizards where they highlighted the availability of proxy events for people looking to become interested in the format.  It was notable because it was a direct change from the stance circulating by them 4-5 years ago. 

I've spent the last hour so reading and, as a non-attorney, attempting to untangle the legalese on the WotC website. Without getting into what it says, I've learned two things:

1. As best I can tell, the closest any official WotC-produced document comes explicitly or implicitly disallowing non-sanctioned proxy events is the extremely vague "Organizers may not engage in any other activities that Wizards deems inappropriate"

2. WotC's website is worse than I thought. Reading the WPN agreement linked me to all of the following:
* A page with over 100 other documents on it, including one not in English
* A Word document
* A redirect to their old website which, based on the links on the page, hasn't been updated since early 2014.

Once I've cooled down tomorrow, if WotC hasn't publicly clarified this, I'll post my analysis.

It really boils down to this: If WotC wants to, they can remove a store from the WPN and from being able to acquire sealed product at wholesale. Not being able to acquire sealed product is a death knell for a small store. Therefore, regardless of what the agreement say, the stores will do what WotC wants.

Each time I get more riled about this, I'm calmed by something that nedleeds, of all people, said when discussing MTGO. Paraphrased a bit more eloquently than he put it: I know the cards. I know the rules. No matter what WotC does, they can't take Magic away from me.
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2016, 07:35:25 am »

Honestly I think this is likely just to save face on WoTCs side.  This is not the first time I have heard of an event organizer receiving this type of message. 

Most likely what happened was, somehow or another the fact that this store was running a proxy event got broadcast publicly and that information/broadcast was brought to Wizards attention.  Once this happens the Wizards legal team most likely is required to send some sort of notice to tell the store to stop else it would look bad for their policy enforcement.

If I recall correctly the NYSE crew (Coss and Detwiler) received a similar such notice a year or two ago.
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2016, 10:09:33 am »

Honestly I think this is likely just to save face on WoTCs side.  This is not the first time I have heard of an event organizer receiving this type of message.  

Most likely what happened was, somehow or another the fact that this store was running a proxy event got broadcast publicly and that information/broadcast was brought to Wizards attention.  Once this happens the Wizards legal team most likely is required to send some sort of notice to tell the store to stop else it would look bad for their policy enforcement.

If I recall correctly the NYSE crew (Coss and Detwiler) received a similar such notice a year or two ago.

While I have help with the NYSE Open (it's impossible to run it alone), it's my event.  Much like Coss will have help with Eternal Weekend, which is his event.

I didn't get notification from Wizards about proxies, and I have to say, I was surprised to see this happen.  I wonder if, due to lack of official events (outside of Eternal Weekend), Vintage is 'safe' (or, 'safer' than the event in question, which was a Legacy tournament).  Legacy receives support (albeit diminished support), and there are Legacy Grand Prixes.  

Whenever I see things like this go out, there's a sense of trepidation.  How many players who attend events play fully sanctioned decks?  I have the cards I need, and I have a lot of friends who do, but I also have a lot of friends who don't.  Spitballing, I'd guess that something like 50% of the guys who play Vintage use proxies.  If you told all of those guys that they had to go out and spend $3,000 on an Unlimited Lotus, and then however many thousands extra on top of that to pick up the remaining balance of power, duals, Drains, Forces, Workshops, Bazaars, and whatever other expensive cards they need, I'd imagine that most would balk.  

I was a tournament organizer before proxies were introduced to the American metagame.  Steve wrote an article back in 2003 or so about the potential utility of proxies in expanding Vintage, and I was one of the T/Os who decided to try it.  We initially allowed five proxies per person, and this allowed players to play more decks than they were able to when they first started buying into the format.  When I introduced proxies to the Mark's Comics Vintage tournaments that I ran, an Unlimited Black Lotus was $400, Underground Sea was less than $20 (Beta Underground Sea was $200), Mishra's Workshop was $150, Bazaar of Baghdad was unplayable, Moxen were between $150-$200.  

What does a Vintage deck run nowadays?  The VSL list that I ran, in paper form, is apparently $19,647.78 according to TCG mid-prices:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/nicks-workshops/

The average blue deck will be significantly more than this, on the back of dual lands and blue power.  Speaking for myself, when I introduced proxies to the Mark's Comics crowd (20-30 regulars for monthly Vintage), it was because I wanted to give the players time to pick up the cards that they needed in order to play the format that they loved.  Even now, with prices being what they are, there are younger players who are working towards slowly buying into the format.  The best recent example, for me, is Will Magrann.  

Will won a Sapphire at a Blue Bell tournament back in 2011, and after we spoke, he decided to keep it and work on getting Workshops, power, and all the staples that he needed to play Workshops.  He won a Workshop the following month.  He got some good deals from members of the community, in part because we all knew what he was trying to do.  I'm cool with that.  But when Will won his Sapphire, it was marked at $485 in the case, if I remember correctly.  And when I helped Will pick up a Lotus, it was at $600.  

Players are still buying in, but it's taking more time.  Killing proxies in Vintage is only justifiable (for me at least), if they're going to do a massive reprint.  I have Alpha power and I want to see power reprinted.  I hate the Reserved List as much as the next guy.  Since I don't think we're going to see power reprints, and since I think the price on power is going to remain mostly exorbitant, I think proxies are a necessary evil for Vintage to maintain its current attendance levels.  If I received a cease and desist letter, it would kill the N.Y.S.E. Open, without a doubt.  I would lose a tremendous number of players; the margins on this event are already small enough.  I want to help support the format, I want to grow the format, I try and get as many new players in as I can, and I try to support the new players whom we do get in, but there are some bridges that I can't/won't cross, and running an event where you lose $10,000 is one of them.

My first Black Lotus was $300.  My first set of Moxen were between $80-$100 apiece.  My first three Mishra's Workshops cost me $90.  Even after I sold everything off in 2005, crushed because my Beta powered, foiled up 5CStax deck was mistakenly thrown away, I was able to buy back in starting in 2008 for reasonable prices. Forgetting that, I'm now in my early/mid 30's; it's easier for me to buy expensive cards than it was when I was in my early/mid 20's, let alone still a teenager.  I upgraded my Moxen again recently; it ran me $10,000 for Alpha Moxen, and it was $7,000 for my MP Alpha Lotus.  These are now considered deals.  I just don't know where the format is supposed to go if proxies aren't allowed.  

What would happen if Wizards started enforcing the outlaw on proxies?  Some of that estimated 50% would continue to buy in, borrow cards, and be able to play.  I'd imagine that most would leave the format, angry.  Tournaments would dry up because there weren't the players to support them.  Sanctioned events, like Vintage Champs, would likely take a hit, mostly because the guys who played all year, and then were able to borrow cards for one event, were suddenly not interested, as they were forced out from playing for the rest of the year.  These guys that play proxies support the stores and tournament organizers by being there, buying cards they can afford, sleeves, food and drinks, etc.  That business goes away.  It's not the death knell for the format, because the format will only truly die when the game is dead, and that's not happening anytime soon.  But it would be a devastating blow.

And for those who'd say "Well, there's always MODO!", I'd respond by saying the MODO, or even Cockatrice, are a means to an end; they're primarily used as a testing ground for players getting ready for the big paper events.  And if Wizards decided to shift Vintage Champs to an online event, much of the player base would revolt.  This is not an option.  I don't play Magic to sit at home on my computer.  I play the role of road warrior and champion of the format in order to play with my friends, together.  We drive to events together, we play all day long, we have big dinners afterward, and we drive home together.  It is a communal experience.  Sitting at home on my computer would completely defeat the purpose of playing the format.  
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2016, 11:03:45 am »

Even now, with prices being what they are, there are younger players who are working towards slowly buying into the format.  The best recent example, for me, is Will Magrann.  

Will won a Sapphire at a Blue Bell tournament back in 2011, and after we spoke, he decided to keep it and work on getting Workshops, power, and all the staples that he needed to play Workshops.  He won a Workshop the following month.  He got some good deals from members of the community, in part because we all knew what he was trying to do.  I'm cool with that.  But when Will won his Sapphire, it was marked at $485 in the case, if I remember correctly.  And when I helped Will pick up a Lotus, it was at $600.  

Players are still buying in, but it's taking more time.

Thank you for the kind words and the help getting everything together, Nick.

I think that my journey was the exception rather than the rule for most, but I am extremely proud of the fact that I was able to acquire a fully powered Workshop deck all while being a full time student. I did it by saving every penny that I could, whether it was the $50 that my aunt gave me for Christmas or the $20 that my parents gave me to spend on the weekends at school. This money could easily have gone to pizza and beer, but instead I prioritized furthering my Vintage collection and in hindsight this was a terrific decision. I understand that for a lot of other young people this wouldn't be attainable for a variety of reasons whether it be student loans, buying your own books, paying for your own food, but just remember that every dollar counts.

Proxies are a huge selling point for people looking to get into the format. I can say with a high degree of certainty that although I was crazy about the format that I wouldn't have agreed to wait 5 years before I could play in my first Vintage tournament and almost certainly would not be involved in the format today. I traded a standard deck for a 10 proxy Workshop deck in 2007 and never really looked back. At some point you have to decide what you want, but without proxies your decision might be made for you. For me, that was to be able to play at Vintage Champs without having to borrow anything, something I've been able to do for the last 3 years thanks in large part to the help of my friends in the Vintage community.

It is my hope that I will be able to repay this favor going forward to the next generation of Vintage players to keep this great format alive and well in whatever means possible. Whether that's by helping newer players manage their collection, lending cards, giving out a sweetheart deal here and there or whatever else, I want to make it so as many people as possible can play my favorite format.
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2016, 11:14:56 am »

Ya, I own over 2 sets of power currently (the beta set i play with, an unlimited set i lend to a friend, and am working on an alpha set and have some extra beta/unlimited with 4 lotus total) but they keep making it more difficult for me to play in events I want...so I may just sell out.   That'll be a task as my collection approaches 6 figures, but if they remove all reason for me to have all this cardboard sitting around I will.  I almost feel like they pressured SCG then coordinated them to reduce legacy support.  They seem to really want to just outright kill non-standard formats and just aren't able to with modern so do modern masters to at least profit from it.  They've:

* doubled down on the reserve list multiple times (adding cards, removing loopholes) despite the fact they've removed cards from the list before.
* this knew crack down on proxies in the name of anti-counterfeit even though this INCREASES the likelihood of people buying counterfeits and people turning a blind-eye to that and they don't do what it would really take to crack down on counterfeits (having full time people partner with people at ebay, aliexpress, etc to police these sites)
* made it so you can't run non-standard pptq but just in the summer and only modern
* reduced the number of non-standard gp and done poor scheduling causing conflicts
* make standard cards (that already get expensive and then tank in value) legal for less time
* do reprints infrequently enough that people aren't afraid to do buy-outs of cards.  if they wanted to they could do an FNM promo every time they saw a card get bought out and if they do that frequently enough doing buyouts will become too risky
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2016, 11:43:16 am »

Even now, with prices being what they are, there are younger players who are working towards slowly buying into the format.  The best recent example, for me, is Will Magrann.  

Will won a Sapphire at a Blue Bell tournament back in 2011, and after we spoke, he decided to keep it and work on getting Workshops, power, and all the staples that he needed to play Workshops.  He won a Workshop the following month.  He got some good deals from members of the community, in part because we all knew what he was trying to do.  I'm cool with that.  But when Will won his Sapphire, it was marked at $485 in the case, if I remember correctly.  And when I helped Will pick up a Lotus, it was at $600.  

Players are still buying in, but it's taking more time.

Thank you for the kind words and the help getting everything together, Nick.

I think that my journey was the exception rather than the rule for most, but I am extremely proud of the fact that I was able to acquire a fully powered Workshop deck all while being a full time student. I did it by saving every penny that I could, whether it was the $50 that my aunt gave me for Christmas or the $20 that my parents gave me to spend on the weekends at school. This money could easily have gone to pizza and beer, but instead I prioritized furthering my Vintage collection and in hindsight this was a terrific decision. I understand that for a lot of other young people this wouldn't be attainable for a variety of reasons whether it be student loans, buying your own books, paying for your own food, but just remember that every dollar counts.

Proxies are a huge selling point for people looking to get into the format. I can say with a high degree of certainty that although I was crazy about the format that I wouldn't have agreed to wait 5 years before I could play in my first Vintage tournament and almost certainly would not be involved in the format today. I traded a standard deck for a 10 proxy Workshop deck in 2007 and never really looked back. At some point you have to decide what you want, but without proxies your decision might be made for you. For me, that was to be able to play at Vintage Champs without having to borrow anything, something I've been able to do for the last 3 years thanks in large part to the help of my friends in the Vintage community.

It is my hope that I will be able to repay this favor going forward to the next generation of Vintage players to keep this great format alive and well in whatever means possible. Whether that's by helping newer players manage their collection, lending cards, giving out a sweetheart deal here and there or whatever else, I want to make it so as many people as possible can play my favorite format.

Proxies were a big factor in allowing me to get into the Vintage scene in March 2015; my first Vintage event was the Eternal Extravaganza, and the reason I was able to play in the first place was that I didn't have to borrow $10,000.00+ worth of cards to make it happen. Even with access to the cards to borrow them, not everybody wants to sign in blood to replace them in the event of a catastrophe. I was playing Legacy MUD at the time, so it was easy for me to just proxy power/Workshops and get in the game without having to risk the down payment on a house in the event that something happened to my borrowed cards.

The other big factor though, was Roland Chang. Because I was new to the format, I decided to just run a stock list that he used to top 8 the previous year's Vintage Champs. It seemed better to use something that at least recently was good than to try and brew. I wound up running into Roland completely by accident while trying to trade, and he was unbelievably helpful in answering some sideboard questions I had about the deck, and some general play questions as well. With only one exception, to a man (and occasional lady), everyone in the Vintage scene was welcoming and helpful, and this just cemented my desire to own my own power come champs this past August.

Getting fully powered wasn't easy. I think between that March Event and Champs it cost about $9,000 for me to pick up the 4x workshops, Lotus, and Moxen in solid shape to be able to play sanctioned with my own cards. Now, I'm not a man of substantial means...in the end the only way I was able to do this was because I was so possessed by the desire to have these cards again (I sold all my power in the early 2000's for horrific reasons and still regret it) that I made crazy sacrifices to have them. I ate less food, I wore my clothes longer, I did stop-gap repairs on my Jeep to keep it running long enough for me to re-save the cash to get another car later this year maybe...it turned into a pretty extensive list of cuts to my lifestyle that made my dream happen. Not everyone is willing to go to that level, not everyone would be able to understand why someone would do such a thing, though I think if they had the pleasure of attending a Vintage event they might begin to understand.

I'm hoping that Wizards isn't planning on hammering people for hosting unsanctioned Vintage events that allow proxies, because these are the types of events that bring new people to the format...the guys that play blue in Legacy are already in position to play 10 proxy, because they already have duals and forces. Even if most of them always go the 10 proxy route, it's still people to play with, and that is what really counts.
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2016, 12:08:26 pm »

Ya, I own over 2 sets of power currently (the beta set i play with, an unlimited set i lend to a friend, and am working on an alpha set and have some extra beta/unlimited with 4 lotus total) but they keep making it more difficult for me to play in events I want...so I may just sell out.   That'll be a task as my collection approaches 6 figures, but if they remove all reason for me to have all this cardboard sitting around I will.  I almost feel like they pressured SCG then coordinated them to reduce legacy support.  They seem to really want to just outright kill non-standard formats and just aren't able to with modern so do modern masters to at least profit from it.  They've:

* doubled down on the reserve list multiple times (adding cards, removing loopholes) despite the fact they've removed cards from the list before.
* this knew crack down on proxies in the name of anti-counterfeit even though this INCREASES the likelihood of people buying counterfeits and people turning a blind-eye to that and they don't do what it would really take to crack down on counterfeits (having full time people partner with people at ebay, aliexpress, etc to police these sites)
* made it so you can't run non-standard pptq but just in the summer and only modern
* reduced the number of non-standard gp and done poor scheduling causing conflicts
* make standard cards (that already get expensive and then tank in value) legal for less time
* do reprints infrequently enough that people aren't afraid to do buy-outs of cards.  if they wanted to they could do an FNM promo every time they saw a card get bought out and if they do that frequently enough doing buyouts will become too risky

This is the most frustrating thing about this decision for me personally. I can't speak for everyone but at least in my area the people who own fully powered Vintage decks are few and far between, but there are enough people that can play ~15 proxy or so that events can be organized regularly. If this rule is actually enforced, the number of Vintage events will almost certainly plummet, since most of those 15 proxy players can't/won't shell out the money to "finish" their decks. That means even people that own fully powered decks are going to get to play less and honestly I think a lot of people will think very seriously about selling off some or all of their collections. Many just aren't interested in owning a stack of $1000 pieces of cardboard that you never get to play with.

To me it is also a clear indication of the level of respect/support Wizards has for the eternal formats. I can't really imagine they think this will help the Legacy/Vintage scene in any way. I hate to be "that guy" but this does seem like a pretty clear signal that they want you to play Standard/Modern/Limited and they are willing to actively sabotage attempts to do anything else.

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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2016, 12:42:52 pm »

The LGS in my hometown in central IL received "clarification" today on the support line. Here is the store manager's post:

"**** REGARDING PROXIES ****
Ok guys, here is what I have directly from Wizards of the Coast.
They DID NOT send out the emails regarding no proxies being allowed, HOWEVER, this was an existing rule that has just been bent to the point of breaking, and they are trying to enforce it more.
With that being said, they told us that we should not be "policing it" (take that however you want), but that we should not be promoting proxy tournaments, which we will obviously no longer be holding.
Which in theory means that I am NOT the proxy police (you didn't wanna see that), so I will not be confiscating your EDH decks, or Draft Cubes wink emoticon. But, I sadly will not be able to hold tournaments using WER that contain proxied cards, so our Sunday Legacy Proxy tournament is gone frown emoticon. (decipher this if you can)
I understand there is some gray area involved, so if you have any questions you can PM me, and I will answer to the best of my ability."

So it seems to me that it's a similar story for store owner's and TO's out east that have received similar notices but no real enforcement or even consequences for continued proxy events?
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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2016, 01:14:57 pm »

The LGS in my hometown in central IL received "clarification" today on the support line. Here is the store manager's post:

"**** REGARDING PROXIES ****
Ok guys, here is what I have directly from Wizards of the Coast.
They DID NOT send out the emails regarding no proxies being allowed, HOWEVER, this was an existing rule that has just been bent to the point of breaking, and they are trying to enforce it more.
With that being said, they told us that we should not be "policing it" (take that however you want), but that we should not be promoting proxy tournaments, which we will obviously no longer be holding.
Which in theory means that I am NOT the proxy police (you didn't wanna see that), so I will not be confiscating your EDH decks, or Draft Cubes wink emoticon. But, I sadly will not be able to hold tournaments using WER that contain proxied cards, so our Sunday Legacy Proxy tournament is gone frown emoticon. (decipher this if you can)
I understand there is some gray area involved, so if you have any questions you can PM me, and I will answer to the best of my ability."

So it seems to me that it's a similar story for store owner's and TO's out east that have received similar notices but no real enforcement or even consequences for continued proxy events?

It sounds to me like if you just dump Wizard Event Reporter you will be ok. I understand some of the issues that come with that, because for as much grousing as I have heard about that program, it still does some things nicely. How possible is it to work around not having WER?
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2016, 01:25:45 pm »

If an event falls in the forest and isn't promoted does anyone play in it?

They are saying don't promote them. What I take from that is, you won't be asked to leave for playtesting with sharpied Jace, Vryn's Prodigies. However, there won't be any store affiliated or promoted proxy events.
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2016, 01:43:51 pm »

What is to stop your local store of advertising vintage tournaments, with no mention of Proxy's whatsoever and a simple "call the store if you have any questions" wink wink.  My point is this is the internet, people will find creative ways to sell/advertise things,  Just ask any "Ski Equipment" add on craigslist.  Wizards hasn't profited from the sale of a black lotus since the last sealed box of unlimited left their shelves the better part of 25 years ago, if this is some preemptive attempt at an attack on the reserved list I highly doubt this is the route they would take
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2016, 02:35:40 pm »

What store wants to risk poking the bear, losing pre-releases, losing FNM, losing possibly access to promos and wholesale pricing just to host a $10 entry 10-30 person Vintage event for which they might sell ~$100 in singles? If I owned a store I'd decline.
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cYnic
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2016, 02:55:58 pm »

What is to stop your local store of advertising vintage tournaments, with no mention of Proxy's whatsoever and a simple "call the store if you have any questions" wink wink.  My point is this is the internet, people will find creative ways to sell/advertise things,  Just ask any "Ski Equipment" add on craigslist.  Wizards hasn't profited from the sale of a black lotus since the last sealed box of unlimited left their shelves the better part of 25 years ago, if this is some preemptive attempt at an attack on the reserved list I highly doubt this is the route they would take
I might be missing something here, but what do you substitute ski equipment for? When I checked on craigslist there was actual ski equipment on offer.  Surprised
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portland
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2016, 03:09:24 pm »

They did this a couple of years back in the UK. Couple of vintage proxy series were nipped in the bud to the great disappointment of the community. Shop had to dissociate itself entirely, meaning couldn't use staff, venue, reporter etc.
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portland
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2016, 03:12:20 pm »

Urban dictionary is your friend re ski equipment, ski instructor, rock climbing et al.
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rikter
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2016, 03:19:15 pm »

What is to stop your local store of advertising vintage tournaments, with no mention of Proxy's whatsoever and a simple "call the store if you have any questions" wink wink.  My point is this is the internet, people will find creative ways to sell/advertise things,  Just ask any "Ski Equipment" add on craigslist.  Wizards hasn't profited from the sale of a black lotus since the last sealed box of unlimited left their shelves the better part of 25 years ago, if this is some preemptive attempt at an attack on the reserved list I highly doubt this is the route they would take


So I could see this being a preemptive attack on the reserved list, in that maybe if they crack down on the proxy tournaments and make it harder to play Vintage, that the players will make enough noise or something to get reprints of these cards.

Personally I would prefer that they just reprint everything, and have my collection take a hit in value in exchange for having more events to play in. I bought in to play, with just the hope that if I ever had to sell out I wouldn't get killed. I'm sure if they reprinted we would all lose some value, but ultimately our power cards are still really rare, and nothing can change that. And if they reprinted and drove demand, it might end up raising the value of our portfolios because an increased population of players might lead to an increase in the number of players who want to trade up to the original issue power.

In regards to the ski equipment posting, it is likely a euphemism for cocaine.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2016, 04:24:31 pm »

Until I see a tournament organizer get banned, these are just words and wizards reiterating policy it's never enforced. 

Although, they have become draconian with player suspensions recently. 
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p3temangus
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« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2016, 04:29:54 pm »

Until I see a tournament organizer get banned, these are just words and wizards reiterating policy it's never enforced. 

Although, they have become draconian with player suspensions recently. 

I am in full agreement.  When stores start seeing "secret shoppers" showing up for Proxy Vintage Events I will become concerned. 
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thecrav
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« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2016, 05:33:49 pm »

Although, they have become draconian with player suspensions recently. 

By my count, this is the third time in the last year or so where Wizards is punishing or saying they'll punish someone for something that is not against any written rule. It wouldn't be so "draconian" if the rules were actually written down. As it stands, I'm kind of scared that I'll get suspended for something I had no idea I wasn't supposed to do.
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mtgnj421
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« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2016, 05:46:20 pm »

Do you think we will see less 10-15 proxy vintage events at the bigger LGS? I just started attending these type of events in the last few months and have really enjoyed them. Would hate to see them cut down in size due to this nonsense.
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thecrav
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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2016, 07:16:41 pm »

Trick Jarret replied on Reddit (Screenshot)

tl;dr: What we call "proxies" are actually counterfeits and everyone knows counterfeits aren't allowed.

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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2016, 08:11:33 pm »

If a card with sharpie is a counterfeit, then whoever is making the Monopoly game really needs to be stopped.
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jimmycolorado
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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2016, 08:14:38 pm »

Did Trick really post that image? Or is that a bit of editorializing on the part of suave and charming thecrav? Because if it's the former, nothing in that photo is counterfeit (unless it's a pretty decent Chinese fake of a Scalding Tarn and a $20 that would make Kim Jong-Un drop his donuts in admiration). Counterfeits are attempts to pass the fake off as real, which the comic examples do nothing of the sort. Then again, the likeness to MY BOY Andrew Jackson is disturbingly accurate...
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waz
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« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2016, 08:24:33 pm »

What I find interesting:

"we have started to ask stores not to organize unsanctioned events with counterfeit cards."

So does this mean that unsanctioned events organized by TOs other than stores are acceptable?

"WPN stores are our partners and we expect them to help us protect our intellectual property. "

Does that mean there is an obligation on the part of store? If so, what precisely is the obligation and the extent to which the store must go to enforce WOTC's right. Presumably WOTC defines the extent to which the store must act to protect its IP. This is using WOTC's definitions of what constitutes a "proxy" v. a "counterfeit" and not actually looking at whether or not those definitions make sense.

Given the above, and the statement from Trick, what, if anything does this mean for NYSE IV, which is currently scheduled to be held at a LGS?
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