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Author Topic: Eternal Masters CONFIRMED  (Read 8450 times)
vartemis
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« Reply #60 on: February 27, 2016, 11:46:18 am »

The value of the high end stuff is also a magnet for crime. If we just ignore all the sad articles of decks being stolen at events, I've been seeing more stories in local news of shops being broken into and the only thing being stolen is Magic. One comic shop had a ton of expensive comics, but it's easier to liquidate Magic.

As gross is the thought is, I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 5 years we hear of quite a few more armed assualts at hobby shops where the only thing they demand is cards. Most stores dont carry a ton of cash because the costs are so expensive most people pay with credit or debit cards. At some tournaments you could get more value than hitting tellers and stores for cash. Hell, a major Vintage tournament could be better than a bank's front half, and you wouldn't have to launder the money.

At this point my cards just sit in a closet. It's not worth the risk of taking it out in public when I can play at home online. Of the few friends I have that still play Vintage, most won't bring their decks out in public. They just get together at friends' houses because it's not worth the risk. A couple do go out to local stores, but they proxy anything over $100 in their decks and keep photos of the cards on their cell to prove they own them.
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shrewarmies
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« Reply #61 on: February 29, 2016, 08:51:42 pm »

The only thing I expect to see is a lot of the non-modern legal goblins. Lackey, Matron, and possibly even Settler. It would also include refernce the recent re-printing of the pro-blue one in standard.

It would continue the example they set with MM about tribes and it would also serve as an entrance point into Legacy/Vintage/Eternal(eugh)
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gkraigher
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« Reply #62 on: February 29, 2016, 08:55:09 pm »

Wizards has confirmed that it has no intentions of making an eternal format.  The original announcement specifically said these cards will help those who have cubes, commander, legacy, and vintage decks. 

Eternal will not exist. 
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rcwraspy
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« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2016, 09:20:44 pm »

I'm one of the many players who began playing when Unlimited turned into Revised and I stopped playing when I went to college (1999).  I picked the game back up again around the time of Dark Ascension.  While I was in college, my brother sold all my valuable cards for weed money, so I no longer had any duals (and I never owned power).  I've transitioned from Standard to Legacy and Modern and even some Vintage.  Reprints of shocks and fetches and mutavaults and thoughtseizes were great, and I bought low on other cards when MM and MM15 came out.  I now have 8/16 blue duals and 6 of the others along with all non-reserve, non-"vintage-only" (such as Mana Drain) staples for the eternal and non-rotating formats.  And I'm continuing to buy here and there.  Just yesterday I pulled the trigger on 2 Volcanic Islands (which brought me from 6 to the 8 mentioned blue duals). 

I don't mind the current prices, and don't mind biding my time and collecting when I feel it's right to purchase certain cards.  I'm not a fan of the Reserved List, but I don't see it as barring me from playing Legacy and most of the Vintage tournaments where I can borrow from a friend (who has 2 playsets of power) or proxy.

That said, as a 3L law student (there's a saying that nobody's as dangerous as a law student, because we don't know what we don't know, so take this with a grain of salt), I can't see a lawsuit arising from the termination of the Reserved List surviving summary judgment (where one side asks the judge to rule in their favor before trial begins because the other doesn't have enough facts to support the required legal elements).  If WOTC doesn't want to get rid of the Reserved List, I very much doubt it has anything to do with fear of legal ramifications.  That said, plenty of other, valid business reasons could exist.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #64 on: March 16, 2016, 12:15:13 am »

Summary judgment comes after discovery and class certification and motions to dismiss and nonparties at fault and motions to compel and motions for protective order and depositions and practically everything before trial, i.e. after you are already in the poor house from paying your attorney. 

Advising a client to screw around because they probably win summary judgment based on facts that might or might not come out in discovery is dumb.
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rikter
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« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2016, 09:50:50 am »

I'm one of the many players who began playing when Unlimited turned into Revised and I stopped playing when I went to college (1999).  I picked the game back up again around the time of Dark Ascension.  While I was in college, my brother sold all my valuable cards for weed money, so I no longer had any duals (and I never owned power).  I've transitioned from Standard to Legacy and Modern and even some Vintage.  Reprints of shocks and fetches and mutavaults and thoughtseizes were great, and I bought low on other cards when MM and MM15 came out.  I now have 8/16 blue duals and 6 of the others along with all non-reserve, non-"vintage-only" (such as Mana Drain) staples for the eternal and non-rotating formats.  And I'm continuing to buy here and there.  Just yesterday I pulled the trigger on 2 Volcanic Islands (which brought me from 6 to the 8 mentioned blue duals). 

I don't mind the current prices, and don't mind biding my time and collecting when I feel it's right to purchase certain cards.  I'm not a fan of the Reserved List, but I don't see it as barring me from playing Legacy and most of the Vintage tournaments where I can borrow from a friend (who has 2 playsets of power) or proxy.

That said, as a 3L law student (there's a saying that nobody's as dangerous as a law student, because we don't know what we don't know, so take this with a grain of salt), I can't see a lawsuit arising from the termination of the Reserved List surviving summary judgment (where one side asks the judge to rule in their favor before trial begins because the other doesn't have enough facts to support the required legal elements).  If WOTC doesn't want to get rid of the Reserved List, I very much doubt it has anything to do with fear of legal ramifications.  That said, plenty of other, valid business reasons could exist.

Regarding the legal ramifications of ending the reserved list, the issue that I have seen most frequently raised, and which does not appear in your post, is that of promissory estoppel. Wizards made a promise regarding the reprinting of these cards, and people made financial decisions based on that. Some of them made significant financial decisions. Who can say for sure what the cost of litigation + WotC's exposure on this would be. I don't think you can really predict just what kind of price drop a reprint would cause. It may be possible that you could end up with a Modern Masters/Tarmogoyf situation where increased demand more than offsets, and actually improves upon, your position on a particular card (which I imagine would immediately put an end to any lawsuits because you wouldn't actually have lost anything), but who knows for sure until it happens? You're sort of rolling the dice.

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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2016, 09:57:18 am »

@rikrter: You are absolutely correct.  I am very confident that the conversation with Hasbro's attorneys focused on the fact that there were viable claims that MIGHT result from a violation of the Reserve List, chiefly Promissory Estoppel but also potential various state law deceptive trade practice laws (they vary). 

You then have to put yourself in WotC's shoes.  On the one hand, we have potential fallout from violating the policy and the money you'd make in doing so.  On the other hand, you have no risk and the same amount of money being spent all the time.  It's kind of a no-brainer, at least as long as Magic is growing and profitable.

But, all is not lost.  WotC is aggressively reprinting where they can (Shocklands! Fetchlands!) and printing situational substitutes for older cards when they can (Mana Drain's competition in different kinds of countermagic).  So far, they've been a bit too timid to print situational substitutes for the Power Nine, but there's no reason they cannot.  So, relax, the problem is being addressed in probably the most rational way possible.
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rikter
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« Reply #67 on: March 16, 2016, 10:35:14 am »

@Max

I think there are two other factors to this as well:

1) Even if you reprint once with no negative financial impact, further reprinting may cause financial harm, so you're creating this sort of long term liability around the printing of these cards. You could try and hedge through pricing, to make sure that the product is generating extra revenue to offset future legal fees and such, but that's a bit of effort and why even bother with it if you don't need to?

2) Even without any legal issues, by making the cards needed to play eternal formats easily available, you kind of cut your own throat in regards to standard. The excitement of playing standard may be tempered by easy access to the powerful stuff going on in the Eternal formats.If you shift a chunk of your player base into these formats, it really makes it harder to sell them new sealed product.
 There is also a lot less flex room in Eternal, particularly Vintage, because so many of the cards in there are just the best at what they do, and printing something that could actually replace a card like Vamp or DT or any of the blue draw spells is probably not a great idea from a design perspective, if you want to have standard playing a particular way.
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CHA1N5
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« Reply #68 on: March 16, 2016, 11:04:54 am »

1) Even if you reprint once with no negative financial impact, further reprinting may cause financial harm, so you're creating this sort of long term liability around the printing of these cards.

This is one thing I've wondered about: how far does this extend?

Let's say they simply eliminate the Reserved List and related policy tomorrow, but without reprinting anything.  Then, in 10 years (2026) they reprint the P9 in a Vintage Masters type set.  Do all the same problems exist 10 years after the policy is formally eliminated?

What about 20 years?

It would likely be that simply announcing the removal of the policy, even with no immediate associated reprints, prices would drop.  Exactly how much is anyone's guess, but it's clear that there are separate impacts from the presence of the policy and actual reprints.
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rikter
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« Reply #69 on: March 16, 2016, 01:15:13 pm »

1) Even if you reprint once with no negative financial impact, further reprinting may cause financial harm, so you're creating this sort of long term liability around the printing of these cards.

This is one thing I've wondered about: how far does this extend?

Let's say they simply eliminate the Reserved List and related policy tomorrow, but without reprinting anything.  Then, in 10 years (2026) they reprint the P9 in a Vintage Masters type set.  Do all the same problems exist 10 years after the policy is formally eliminated?

What about 20 years?

It would likely be that simply announcing the removal of the policy, even with no immediate associated reprints, prices would drop.  Exactly how much is anyone's guess, but it's clear that there are separate impacts from the presence of the policy and actual reprints.

Its an interesting thought, for both parties, if only because of the strategy implications for the potential plaintiffs: do you wait and see what happens on an actual reprint, do you move now? I think the points you raise are very valid, and they underscore the uncertain nature of this situation. That there are all these questions, issues and uncertainty highlight, to me at least, the reasons why we aren't going to see printings of these cards unless the game is in dire straits...what healthy entity would take on all the risks and headaches to print a product that they don't actually need to print to stay solvent, especially when printing that product may have a negative impact on sales of future standard product?
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rcwraspy
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« Reply #70 on: March 16, 2016, 06:37:03 pm »

Summary judgment comes after discovery and class certification and motions to dismiss and nonparties at fault and motions to compel and motions for protective order and depositions and practically everything before trial, i.e. after you are already in the poor house from paying your attorney. 

Advising a client to screw around because they probably win summary judgment based on facts that might or might not come out in discovery is dumb.
Yes, you're absolutely correct.  Just because you may win doesn't mean you should subject yourself to the lawsuit.

That said, it's all a matter of balancing values, isn't it?  If WOTC valued reprinting Reserved List cards, just how much value do they place on it?  Do they really care that much about Vintage and Legacy?  Their top 3 formats (Standard, Limited, Modern) make them plenty of money already, so I'd imagine there's not much incentive other than to milk a latent demand.  But if they did place a high value on it, there are plenty of paths they could take. 

For instance, someone mentioned that prior actions made it clear that WOTC heard directly from people complaining that printings came too close to breaking either the spirit or letter, or both, of the Reserved List.  If they know who these people are they can always give them confidential advanced warning that they plan to abolish the Reserved List, thereby preempting certain causes of action.  Those folks may take the opportunity to ruin the market for a bit, but the eventual reprints may fix that.

In the end I agree that what they're doing now is likely the path of least resistance and most practical.  And I'm not upset enough about the Reserved List to think too deeply on it.  But I assume WOTC has options for whichever path they choose.
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