Ankh Sligh

[Androstanolone]

Exactly Rane.  The TNT matchup probably isn't bad enough to warrant bridge in the side, but we have no SB for madness O_O.  The scary thing here is we give them a target for artifact mutation.  At first bridge coming in from the SB will be unexpected, and it'd work, but good madness/stompy players will catch on and bring in their mutations and naturalizes.  Of course, naturalize isn't as scary as mutation, as long as the bridge stays on the board for a few turns it has done its job.  But turning the bridge into 3 1/1's sucks pretty bad.  On the other hand, as long as it stalls them long enough to draw the burn to kill, who cares about some 1/1's?  

Also I'd like to open up discussion on slith firewalker.  I know I've dismissed him before but I must be fair, I've never played with him.  So, I'd like to hear everyone's analysis of him vs. the obvious replacement, cadets, as they are hands down the weakest link in the creature base.  

Here is my slith vs. cadets analysis:

Similarities:

Both deal 6 damage after attacking 3 times
Both assume no blockers or burnable weenies to function

Differences:

Slith is RR vs. cadets' R
Slith has haste, and grows everytime he hits
Slith can chump block and doesn't screw you when faced with cycled Doj

Motivation for running cadets:

Their presence on the table keeps an aggro opponent from attacking as much simply because he doesn't want you swinging back for free and thus bringing him closer to burn range

They're 2/1 for R

Motivation for running slith:

Presence keeps the aggro player from swinging, but even moreso because slith will not only do damage but also grow bigger

Haste

Potential fattie for RR

Motivation to not run cadets:

Cannot chump block
Sucks against cycled Doj
Not beneficial to swing into the opponent's creatures when only a couple extra damage is needed

Motivation to not run Slith:

He is double the investment, thus losing him before he does 3rd turn damage is at least twice the loss

Vulnerable to all the same removal as cadets until 3rd attack

Doesn't sneak under mana drain nearly as often

*conclusions*

So, cadets have a weakness against control because of Doj, and slith has the weakness of seeing mana drain.  I'd have to say slith's weakness isn't as bad here because by the time they're cycling Doj you should be on the verge of winning.  

Cadets are significantly weaker against aggro for obvious reasons, while slith *can* be good if he drops at the right time and sticks around.  He also comes out a turn later which sucks a bit.  

If I was going to run slith I'd have to cut my factories and roll with all mountains and strips.  This isn't so bad anyway because now no wasteland targets, making us more hate resistant (which is how sligh is supposed to be).  I'm going to test him for a while and see how it goes, this is what I'll be testing with:

Creatures:

4 slith
4 pup
4 mancers
4 shaman

Damage:

12 bolts
4 ankh
4 price
3 fireblast

mana:

1 mox
1 strip
4 wastelands
15 mountains

SB:

4 pyrostatic pillar
4 scald
4 rack and ruin
3 something (bridge, tormod's crypt, etc.)

What do you think team bolt?

[Rane]

Ok it's official, Team Bolt has begun ;P.

The problem with Slith vs Cadets is entirly in Cadets favour.  The facts are;
- Sligh needs 8x2/1 for 1cc to get a good chance off dropping one first turn.
- Sligh wants to drop an Ankh 2-3 turn, whilst providing Burn and/or eating Mox/dropping Grim - whatnot.  It does not have the mana free to shove in a Slith.
- If you drew a Slith instead of Cadets, chances are you didn't have a Pup for the first turn drop.  As we know dropping a Shaman or Grim first turn is far superior to Pup/Cadets.  So you are stuck with a first turn inferior attacker, followed by a second turn Slith, which you wouldn't cast because he'd probably be heading right into a blocker(s).  So instead you bolt the blocker and waste land or eat mox or somethin, then attack for 1.  Third turn you drop a Mountain and can now Chain/Rate a blocker and activate Mancer or whatnot, but then you can't drop Slith.  Besides you want to be dropping Ankh now anyway.  Even if you do drop it the chances of a 1/1 or 2/2 getting through from here on in a very slim.

Slith as I demonstrated before just does NOT work with Slighes mana curve.  If it didn't have Haste and was a 1cc it would be THAT much better.  At 2cc it just doesn't work, especially with Ankhs.  Cadets do have their uses remember.  Many a time it has saved me a turn chump blocking a nought, or core, or monger, or Morphling etc.

Conclusion:  Slith is only better against decks that don't drop a creature 1-2 turn, and those decks are the ones that win by turn 3-4 so Slith doesn't help anyway.  It's an excellent budget card in scrubby environments where it can get to be a 4/4 or 5/5, but in real Type 1 it just is not going to make it.  Hell the only reason people like Dryad and Tog is cause they are a SUPER-fast Slith.  Like I said 1cc would be fine, normally the same dmg as Cadets whilst also being a blocker against Decree later, but if you're blocking Decree you're dead anyway.  After turn 3 creatures SUCK in Sligh (excluding 'mancer ) which is exactly when Slith would start to be doing SOME good.  Test it if you wish, but you need those 8xPups, and a Raging Goblin aftre turn 2-3 is really bad.  I'd run Fanatic's over Slith, and I run Cadets over Fanatics.

[Androstanolone]

I agree with you Rane, most of those points are the ones I've made before against slith, the mana curve simply doesn't work for it.  It's not a matter of can slith come out turn 1 or 2 and do some damage, it's that he can't ever come out early without a serious sacrifice in tempo, and if it's not turn 1 or 2 then he's pointless.  But lots of people argue the opposite side and I feel that if I spend some time testing slith I'll have a stronger argument.  What sligh needs is a way to turn late game creatures into damage, an R enchantment that says:  R:  sacrifice a creature, deal 3 damage to target opponent.  Mmmmm more bolts.



- Androstan

[Fëanor]

Slith comments, The card is not crap, but it doesn't belong here in general. Rane has the figures right. It reminds me of playing with 7 mana-elves so id get one first turn. thats why we'd play 7-8 "2/1's". We need to deal damage as fast as we can. personally id run raging over slith instead of fanatic. slith has long term potential, which is another reason why it doesn't belong in a "win-fast" deck. in a heavy creature meta, like the one youre talking about Andro, yes slith might make it in. personally I dont see too much beefs here, yet, or in general. when I do, 'Mancer and burn can push em aside, else I just use my chump blockers and draw out burn to kill.

@Androstan: Your icon kicks ass man. Sorry you had to get warned yourself, this thread has been everywhere.
As for your analysis, good job. I see why you want to include it. It's certainly not jank. When you say they both deal 6 damage, youre really saying theyre the same exact creature because you're not going to attack much more than three times, hopefully . When you think about it, cadets will deal more damage faster (two on turn two, whereas slith: 1 turn two, two turn three etc.), yet another reason to play Cadets. I love to laugh at newbies when they say "why would i want to attack?" when they have the perfect opportunity.
Every damage point counts. For Team Bolt, we know that additionally more damage points earlier counts. You could very well have gotten your opponet down to twelve on turn two if you get a decent hand. If the situation arises, you've played Cadets and can swing, Bolt, Chain, Blast for gg.  :shock:

Tell me if that doesn't make sense

an R enchantment that says: R: sacrifice a creature, deal 3 damage to target opponent. Mmmmm more bolts.

Seismic Assault anyone?

Peace

[Rane]

Slith IS crap.  There is no deck in which it is good, hence it is crap.  I'm not going to bother wasting my time testing it anymore as Cadets is FAR superior, and not that much worse than a Pup.  As for using Raging over Fanatic, that makes no sense, as they mathematically will ALWAYS do the same dmg, except when there is a blocker when they come down in which case Fanatic does 1 more, and Fanatic can also be used to kill of Welders n stuff.  Fanatic is mad and highly underated.  It was simply replaced by the superior Mancer lately.

ANDRO THATS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING FOR LIKE A YEAR NOW! Good to see some else is at the same point of reasoning.  Slighes game is meant to stall out after turns 3-4, so instead of packing Sliths we need to be able to turn those TD'd Pups into dmg.  This is another reason why Fanatic's were so good.  If anyone finds a cheaper Seismic Assualt for creatures let me know .

[Androstanolone]

*shrug* goblin bombardment .  That's all there is atm, and it's hella lame.  It'd never do more damage than ankh and only sometimes more than incinerate.  It's awful.

[Gbj]

4 slith
4 pup
4 mancers
4 shaman

Damage:

12 bolts
4 ankh
4 price
3 fireblast

mana:

1 mox
1 strip
4 wastelands
15 mountains

SB:

4 pyrostatic pillar
4 scald
4 rack and ruin
3 something (bridge, tormod's crypt, etc.)

Supposing you build is Cadet for Slith, my question is simple: how do you side for the mirror ?
The answer is: nothing !
You have 8 card at least that are dead in the mirror match (pup, Ankh) and 4 awful (pop).

For this purpose and for make the deck stronger in a field of Control (keeper, landstill, hulk, t$4k, tnt) / Combo (dragon, tps) / Scrubby Sligh ( ), i have made this list:

4 goblin vandal
4 goblin cadets
4 mogg fanatic ( i prefer it to mancers )
4 shaman
12 bolts
4 ankh
4 price
1 Vise
1 Fork
1 mox
1 strip
4 wastelands
16 mountains

SB:

4 pyrostatic pillar / scald (metagame choice)
4 pillage (this is in side because vandal is in the deck, you know why?)
3 crash / Null Rod (metagame choice)
4 tormod's crypt

Pillage is a strong card for the mirror and is a strong card in the TnT / Workshop match because you have Vandal for first turn hate.
Crash if you aspect a field of workshop / Null rod for combo. I don't want rack and ruin because i have already pillage that costs 3.
Pup is good, don't trust me, but in the current metagame you don't have the space to play 8 of it. You have to choose, and Cadet is stronger (how many times have you attacked with a pup with a blocker in the other side ? only few times, not in this metagame ).

[Rane]

Firstly, earlier in the thread Andro said he doesn't face the mirror, so out the window goes your post.

Secondly, do not run Vise or Fork anymore in Sligh as we said EARLIER.  You say you've read the posts but, I digress.  They can often be dead draws and so are not used unless you ONLY vs control, which I seriously doubt.

Fanatic's were replaced like, worldwide, by 'Mancers because they are just "double-dmg, repetitive use" Fanatics.  Fanatics are still mad though, just worse than Mancers.

And Pillage is at it's worst in the mirror.  There is not always a Scroll to destroy and I wouldn't bother killing an Ankh or anything like that, as they will take equal dmg.  They also ain't gonna care if I kill of a Mountain.  Pillage is CRAP in the mirror and I would SB out straight away, along with Ankh and Pillar if I had it MD.  My Mirror card is Pyrokinesis... if I can somehow fit it in :\.

The only reason I responded to your post is in case you actually did read the other posts and just simply did not understand, from here on in -ignore-.

[Gbj]

Firstly, earlier in the thread Andro said he doesn't face the mirror, so out the window goes your post.

So your point is, i don't face that, i don't face here, i face what i want...
It is not this in real life...

Secondly, do not run Vise or Fork anymore in Sligh as we said EARLIER. You say you've read the posts but, I digress. They can often be dead draws and so are not used unless you ONLY vs control, which I seriously doubt.

It is half true, only vise is good against control. Fork is good in many match, even mirror, when you are so close at life to die. Example, we are both at 3 life in topdeck mode i draw fork, you topdeck bolt and saying with a smile: Bolt you, win !. In response i fork it: I win ! (because my effect goes on stack after yours and you die first). Fireblast are good (random) against only aggro.

Fanatic's were replaced like, worldwide, by 'Mancers because they are just "double-dmg, repetitive use" Fanatics. Fanatics are still mad though, just worse than Mancers.

I have tested before say something, without cards in graveyard lavamancer is hard to activate, how do you put cards in grave ? Fireblast ? No mountain, no mana to activate, bad sinergy with Ankh. Bolt ? ok, but when you have removed one time you are out of gas. You really activate Mancer more than one time in a game ? Or are you never played your list ?

And Pillage is at it's worst in the mirror

It is not worst than pup ! It has sinergy with Ankh if the opponent don't play cursed. Try to fireblast me when i have destroyed a pair of mountain with pillage...

I am repeating, test before speak.My Mirror card is Pyrokinesis...

This is a good card, but you trade 2 for 2 at the best, and you have to remove a threat (bolt, creature). I have it in side for many times, i now pay pillage and it improve so many match than pyrokinesis...

The only reason I responded to your post is in case you actually did read the other posts and just simply did not understand, from here on in -ignore-.

Now i understand because Ric_Flair started another thread, with you there are no discussion. You talk with your friends and said "oh, you are right, how are you good..." and when another try to say something, even wrong, you became arrogant and don't give right motivation.

[Fëanor]

Don't start flaming again, we already got one person warned

@gbi:

without cards in graveyard lavamancer is hard to activate, how do you put cards in grave ? Fireblast ? No mountain, no mana to activate, bad sinergy with Ankh. Bolt ? ok, but when you have removed one time you are out of gas. You really activate Mancer more than one time in a game ? Or are you never played your list ?

Truth about 'Mancer that makes it sooooo good, is that even if you do only activate once, it's two (non-combat if that matters) damage to anything. you cant kill knights for example with fanatic. Yes both you and Rane are right that Mogg Fanatic is a great card, but i don't play it anymore simply because I've run out of room. There's plenty of fuel for 'Mancer and I've played MY list against fish recently and their little faeries couldnt help but dematerialze.
Consider I have already bolted and chained. Two cards gone for a repeatable shock (people play shock, why not 'Mancer?) By the time I want to use it again, possibility is that my opponent has gotten rid of something, pup, ankh, factory, and i can bolt and do it again. The thing is that mainly I wouldn't need to use 'Mancer unless I'm having a hard time keeping his beefs at bay. I can Bolt - 'Mancer  a 5/5, can you do that with Fanatic?

Try to fireblast me when i have destroyed a pair of mountain with pillage...

Alright, I think I was making sense before when I said that it's far too risky to play this card. It is indeed one of the most useful cards red has, but I have drawn this too many times and had to wait a couple turns to play it.

Fork has the *potential* to be a dead draw. we want to minimize those. Of course every card has it's uses, but you have to think about which cards will NEVER be dead in your hand or in play. That is why we've chosen against some of the cards on your list.

@Rane: Reason why I said raging was because it was faster. It's a better Slith. Fanatic still rocks over raging,  but i mentioned it simply because you did. Chew on the fact that 'Mancer is a rare and fanatic is a common and you could probably come to some sort of conclusion as to what WotC was trying to say

@Team Bolt: (:lol:) Fling come pretty close to bombardment but is an instant. Reckless Abandon, Goblin Grenade, ah the memories of Lackey Sligh.

Keep posting gbi, just as long as you have a good argument. It is not my judgement whether you've read the whole article, that's up to you. I think you'd have to find a pretty good way to argue about the cards we've dismissed. You and Ric aren't the only one's who have been ignored. Anro, who rementioned Slith, had gotten some criticism himself. Keep in mind, we've been playing Sligh for quite some time in some form or another, and our responses are just as valuable as yours.

Peace

[Gbj]

My intention was not start a flame, but only have a bit of consideration.
Thanks to Fëanor who give me a civil reply.
I now would explain better my choice:

- Vandal over Pup

Advantage:
Not dead in the mirror
A real threat against some major archetype (TnT, MUD, wMUD, LandStill)

Disadvantage:
Is not a 2/1, so can't win the damage race against pup

The point is, do you really care the disadvantage when you have depleted opponent resource  (in combination with wasteland / strip / Ankh ) ?
In type1 artifacts are used for land slot, right? They are shaman little brothers and have good sinergy with the deck theme.

- Fanatics over Grim Lavamancer

Advantage:
They don't suffer summ sickness to use the ability.
The ability can be used on Turn 1 (lavamancer can be used in the best case Turn 2, but you really cast it turn 1 before are able to use it ?).
The ability doesn't need tap.

Disadvantage:
They don't deal 2 damage.
They don't let you reuse graveyard resource already played.

Lavamancer is better obviously of Fanatics, but in this deck is more diffult to use Lavamancer ability than other decks like Gay/r and R/g Beats.
There are situation where you are on a clock with your opponent at 1 life, the flexibility of fanatic can give you the chance to topdeck and use it immediatly.

Vise - Fork / Fireblast:

This is harder to explain with advantage / disadvantage.
Vise is stronger in the first turns of the game. Against control wins game alone, better than cursed, just don't play anything and let him die.

Fork is a general purpose card, has good sinergy with your bolt (and some sideboard cards in side like crash or pyrokinesis). But it can copy opponent spells too (midtwist and ancestral are the better). Remember the mirror example...

Fireblast is good only in the mid-late game and only when your opponent is in a position of low life (10 or less).
In this part of the game, if you don't have control of the match you lose even if you draw Fireblast (control have the counter 90 % of time because have outdraw you).

In the early game Fireblast is a dead draw, you don't use it before turn 3 / 4 unless you are desperate. And you need double mountain...

[Androstanolone]

So far in testing slith has been so-so.  When he gets through it's cool but doesn't really break the game open or anything,  and when he gets STPed or fired right after casting it's simply a waste.  It is pretty much as one would expect, it clogs the 2cc slot and is generally a far less impressive early play than ankh and nearly as dead later in the game.  I haven't had the chance to use him against TNT or madness though, but I'm not expecting any miracles.  

An enchantment fling might just be worth it, but that would just be an upgraded goblin bombardment, seems unlikely they'd print it.  I'm hoping red will see some useful stuff when OnB rotates out, who knows what they'll come up with.  



- Androstan

[Androstanolone]

Also, I need to simply end the discussion once and for all on fork. It usually simply ends up being incinerate number 5. When I look back at old games from when I was totally new and ran fork in my sligh, I realize there is only really one spell that I copied with fork that ever truly swung the game in my favor, ancestral recall, allowing me to draw into the burn to win.  Red has no card advantage, it makes up for this with efficiency, so extra cards mean a lot more to red than any other color.  Outside of the occasional forked recall or AK, it simply is inferior as a finisher or damage dealer to fireblast.  In your specific example, Gbj, fireblast would have done exactly the same thing as fork, for exactly the same cost, and is unrestricted.  The difference is, fireblast is free, fork forces you to leave mana untapped, fireblast = massive tempo.  Thus it wins the mirror match in the situation where both of you are at 3 life and he TD's a bolt.   However, the ability to cast other things and hold your fireblast to take them by suprise or simply to deal the last 3-4 points of damage now, rather than passing the turn because you're tapped out, makes it infinitely superior.  All of the other disadvantages you cite are disadvantages to fork as well, neither is that great in the first couple turns and BOTH require RR.  In sligh fireblast is 4 damage to your opponent for free, including 3 is non-negotiable.  Fork is too responsive and doesn't win games.

Black vise, while sekzi and powerful, is too narrow and inconsistent.  

Mancers are strictly better than mogg fanatics, using the ability just once does the same thing if not more, the extra R to activate is not a big deal, as it is reusable.  Scroll costs 3 to active, and nobody argues its strength.  Fanatic can go 2 for 1 one time, mancer goes at least 2 for 1 and can do more.

I have mentioned vandal is a solid choice in an artifact heavy meta either MD or SB previously in the thread.  Otherwise mancer is undoubtedly superior.

EDIT:  yes gbj, getting graveyard fuel for mancer isn't hard, 12 bolts + 5 strips is 17 things that go straight to the graveyard.  Add to this dead creatures and a possible early fireblast due to mana flood, and it ends up being plenty.

[Gbj]

This is my last post, amen.
I suggest to everyone to read this link, from the beginning to end:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11851

Here you will find the answer to all question posted in this forum, i don't want comment this answers because everyone is free to do himself.

I am only sad that Legend is not posting anymore, he was an example of how to make a valuable discussion.

[Lyhrrus]

What makes Grim Lavamancer so good right now is the heavy development of aggro decks.  He functions as reusable removal.  I dare fish/landstill to throw down a standstill with him on the table.

Black Vise is still a powerful card, and hence why it is restricted.  It continues to function beautifully with Ankhs.

Fork is dead, as most of the time when you have RR open, you'll want to incinerate in response or something.  The domination of control isn't as much as it used to be.  There are less and less useful spells to copy.  (Notable spells are Ancestral, Hymn to Tourach, Time Walk (?!), MisD or Force for counter wars (?!!!?!))

Slith just doesn't pay off.  Unless there's a reliable way to get him out turn 1, I won't play him.  He's too slow from my testing.

[Androstanolone]

Good comments lyhrrus, all the talk about black vise is tempting me to toss 1 in.  Is it really worth cutting a price for?  That's my only cuttable slot, I'd have to go to 3 price.  

Testing for slith officially completed.  Before I thought he was simply sub-optimal, but really he's just *bad*.  He hurts the combo match by slowing down your damage ability, he hurts the control match because you double the resources for less return (maybe, just maybe, the same return as cadets) and his help in the aggro matchup is questionable.  He's ass.  Glad to hear another person agrees.  He wants to be good, but he just gets big way too slow, whole turns to grow is a snail's pace, even with haste.

[Rane]

For gbj if he comes back, and for historic reference in this thread -

I was civil, if you read the other posts you would understand our '-ignore-' system and that was the only close to rude thing I said.  I stated that Andro had no mirror in HIS META hence why HE didn't worry about it.  Then you accuse me of not caring about whats outside my metagame.  Arrogance.  The people here don't agree with me because they are my friends and vice versa.  I am NOT stubborn or in my own world, in fact I am a very open minded person.  IF you had read the other posts from the beginning you would see that we ALL came to the same conclusions finally.  Also you would see that Andro, Feanor and I all were strongly divided on almost all points.  It is through civilized discussion and REASONING that we ALL came to these conclusions.  So in future think about your argument before you try and flame people (yes you did flame me).  As for Legend I have nothing for respect for him.  But he knows that his build is outdated now with the glorified amount of change that has swept through T1.  We are looking for new answers and we ARE discussing.

Vise - I thought we sorted this out.  It's AWESOME sometimes but running 1-copy only when it's bad often just is not good enough.  Fork goes ditto.

For everyone now I would like to throw some idea's out that I've been toying around with.  As usual I am currently testing and welcome all thoughtful input.

1. Skullclamp
We now know that we would REALLY like to turn creatures into burn.  Is this our answer?  It is useless in the early game but it's not there as pump.  I was thinking more as a 2 or 3 of that we can use to kill of our Pups/Cadets/Shamans and Mancers when in need, for 2 more cards.  Apart from possibly being the draw engine we lacked before it also provides even MORE mancer fodder .

2. Rancor
This is a hypothetical and would like to know, IF there was a Rancor that costed R, would we use it?  At first I scream YES!, but I am not to sure.  After some thought it can get -CA, and can be a dead draw late game when you have no creatures or they can't get through... or it might make them get through... I don't know.

3. Meekstone
Is this our answer to TnT and the like?  Is this the Bridge for 1cc that we so dearly desire?  It appears to be too good to be true.  At the exact power that we cut off our creatures, Meekstone starts to affect.  This also has wonderous uses as stopping gators, noughts, Shades from pumping, Big O, and SOOOO much more.  The only problem is that it doesn't tap them directly, so a nought still gets 12 dmg through.  But then again if it did that too it would be TOO perfect.  So let's here some discussion...

[Cuandoman]

Meekstone:

Creatures with power 3 or greater don't untap during their controllers' untap steps.

Shade and OS's pump critters would untap just fine. It sounded as if you were confused.

[Rane]

I was reffering to burn.  I can know force Shade to lock out for a turn by hitting it with Grim.  They either let it die or pump, wasting mana for their turn.  It was just one of the minor reasons why Meekstone is good, there are thousands upon thousands more.

[Fëanor]

Hm...interesting. I spent all last night reading Legend's thread because I'd never read it before. I must say however that current T1 changes very fast. This thread is likely to last until Bolt is banned :lol:

Yeah, the responses before by gbj, I'm sorry to say while somewhat constructive, were actually very narrow minded. As i said in my last post, you'd have to find some really good reason we haven't already posted in order to get our attention. Truly all some people have contributed to this thread are things we've already discussed and dismissed.

@lhyrrus: I agree totally with 'Mancer, and I can see another person who knows he's not going to cut it.
If you and Andro read the Legend post and that's why you're thinking about Vise, think against it my friends. When I tested it out way back on page 8 or 9 or whatever, I remember of course it was useful but tempo tell sus to play a creature turn 1. Which do you think URPhid would rather counter, Pups or Vise...? Thought so
Plus A LOT of decks, Slaver for instance, can drop down below four easy, first turn ("Mox, Mox, Mox, Vault, Crypt, Slaver, Strip Mine, go...Slaver..." :shock: ).  

Yep, I agree and have agreed ever since an old discussion with a renowned Gay Red player in our area. Fork was once a staple and currently it's lost to the world of Mirrodin.   I may weep openly...
Someday we'll see red's poster card again, but it is not this day...eh, damn Peter Jackson...

@Rane: Skullclamp I can't wait for. I've been toying as well with them in other netdecks of mine, but Ankh Sligh wasn't one of my choices. It seems to fit here, but the question is what will/would we take out, and when in the game would it be played. If played correctly it has power over Scroll, I hope you agrre with me there .

A red Rancor...we've tried the charge and while it was good, we figured that it was too unreliable. This too would be unreliable, unless it reccurs like rancor...

Hm...meekstone...damn...I don't have any...I have an original WEAkstone...guess that wouldn't help, *dawdle dawdle*..............
Seriously it's better in this deck than Bridge, but Bridge in general is better than Meekstone, meekstone does go well with the deck however, so if Andro thinks it might work on his stuffy aggro meta, we might as well see how it fares. I'll have to find some first tho...

I haven't posted a new decklist in a while so I think I'll post one here:

Tiki's deck of killer Cadet Traitors maybe i missed something, sue me...

//Beasties:
4 Funky Munkys
4 Jackal Pup
3 Goblin Cadets
4 'Mancer
//Ankh
4 Ankh of Mishra
//Burn:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 PoP
4 Incinerate
3 Fireblast
//Mana/ManaKillers:
R Mox Ruby
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
R Strip

SB:
3 Pillar
4 R+R
4 tormod's crypt
3 scald
1 BEB (Yes, I know there's no room)


20/20/20 Factor:
Beasties: 17
Mana: 21
Burn Etc.: 22

As for gbj's "final post", we never meant to scare you away. Legend has done a wonderful job here at TMD, but his thread was in a different time and for a different purpose. I don't really care much for whiners, so if you don't like the fact that this post is actually succeeding and at 12-13 pages then simply don't post, easy and simple as that. I think Rane is being a tad too harsh when he says we'd be ignoring, but we certainly will take all irrelevant posts with as little of a grain of sand as possible. thank you for keeping my thread clean guys. Well my beef is out...now back to discussion.

Peace

[Androstanolone]

Hm, meekstone, that's a damn good suggestion rane.  Pisses me off, why didn't I think of it? .  Meekstone has less brute power than bridge but fits the mana curve so much better.  As far as cost to benefit ratio it's definitely more efficient than bridge.  Also, stone is good anytime, including turns 1-3, while bridge will A) Be too expensive and B) ineffective because you will not have dropped your hand.  Stone also has synergy besides its CC and the perfect cutoff for creatures it has.  If you wait for the opponent to overextend and swing with 2-3 fatties, then drop stone next turn, you can swing for the hills.  Bridge makes your weenies dead, as they will inevitably have big fat blockers just standing there, stone can get your weenies through for some fast beatz.  
I'm diggin' it.  

Most people's initial impression of a card like skullclamp in sligh is pretty negative, as it just doesn't seem like much of a "red" card.  Actually, it has merit, card advantage in sligh is *sooo* good, which is why there's so precious little of it.  Creatures after the first 3 turns simply aren't very good, skullclamp presents us with a way of turning those mid game weenies into cards.  At 1 to cast the weenie and 1 to equip, you net one card.  2 mana for a card is pretty fair, but it comes at somewhat of a tempo loss.  I think that, if you're going for some kind of card advantage and a way to help out your weenies later, cursed scroll would actually be the better choice.  It can clear the way for weenies or just keep dealing damage, either way scroll IS burn, rather than skullclamp which can get you burn.  Know what I'm saying?  I won't dismiss it outright, it'd be cool if someone tested it, but I'm sticking to my regular sligh for a while, it's undergone too much surgery lately with ass cards :/.  slith sucks.

I see a bit of similarity to isochron scepter here, actually.  Both are artifacts, both require a 2 card combo (scepter with instants and clamp with creatures), both net you one card upon use, and both require 2 mana to activate.  Scepter turned out to just not cut it in sligh.  

The whole push for scepter in sligh and now wanting clamp in sligh comes from 1 basic concept, trying to improve sligh's late game.  We all want sligh to have a late game, scepter boosts that, clamp has that kind of potential.  We're right in trying to improve the late game, if sligh had a way to keep the gas going a while, it'd be a top deck.  No new fast cards have been printed for it, so we've been looking elsewhere, but overall these kind of cards usually result in more tempo loss than good.  Clamp might be different, but the similarities are there.  I vote for Rane to test it, since he suggested it ^_^.  

Right, no black vise.  EVER.  

EDIT:  btw, my next (much worse) suggestion was going to be mogg maniac lol.  More old school tech ^_^.  

- Androstan

[Rane]

Yeh I was looking through some cards and my eyes literally popped out at Meekstone.  Something I found in like 4th ed. and was jank is now tech!  I have been testing.  There's seriously nothing wrong with it.

The question of a Red Rancor is still out there and I mean if it was EXACTLY Rancor except it had Rcc.  So this has nothing to do with chrage which was meant to speed up your game.  It is more of a speed up/help your creatures get through card.  So the question remains if Rancor was Red, would you use it in Ankh Sligh?

As for Skullclamp it's draw engine is much more powerful than Sceptre because it comes down easier, can be 'activated' the turn it comes down, doesn't net you a card loss at the start, and takes less time to actually gain CA.  Also whatever's one sceptre can be useless at times, whereas with Clamp it is more of a card that is just 'there' to cycle your creatures for 2 cards if you need it.  The only problem I see with Clamp is that it goes against the all-time rule of 'anything, usable at any time.'  With that though there are exceptions like Blast, PoP, Scroll, and now maybe Clamp that are just so good that they can make the cut anyway.  Much further testing is required.

Note:  I would not run Clamp over Scroll, Scroll is too good by itself.  This does more of a different purpose.  Scroll is a great clock/weenie killer/card advantage.  I'm looking at Clamp for its ability to generate CA from our dead creatures.

[Fëanor]

On a short note. One good reason to play Skullclamp, not to mention over Scroll, is because we are also playing with 'Mancers. Clamp supports 'Mancer, Scroll still functions on it's own. I have tested Scroll in this deck and it was useful of course, but now with 'Mancers in, i think the first place to start cutting to at least test Clamp is the scrolls.
In response to Androstan's analysis, consider scroll to be in play and you have too many cards in hand to risk three mana. You'd keep playing spells to decrease your hand size in order to accurately use scroll to your benefit. (of course the whole EOT nullifies such things, but sure keep three mana open till opponent EOT ). With clamp in play, creatures and 'Mancer, you get to pay one to get CA (some of which may be burn OR LD don't forget), plus you fuel 'Mancer which can also go off for two. This scenario calls for more cards and a certain situation, but it is optimal for the deck we have built. "Scroll IS burn", makes it sound like all you want to do is burn your opponent at any given time, but think of those times when you need some extra cards, like Wasteland, Creatures, Ankh. All can be fetched with Clamp, and if you're lucky, you can also find some burn.

Peace

[Androstanolone]

Good points, some things I hadn't thought of, in my likening of clamp to scepter I failed to see that yes, clamp is a bit quicker and doesn't net you card disadvantage at first.  Also, clamp has some versatility over scroll.  It needs testing, if it does turn out to be good then the hardest thing to do will be to figure out what to cut.  I also overlooked the synergy with lavamancer, you get fuel to shoot and more cards.  It's nice.  Also I have meekstone in the SB now, it's a great card.  It seems like it was printed soley for sligh.  I *heart* it.  As for clamp, if someone else doesn't test it I'll probably pick it up.  God knows it's more worth testing than slith was :/.  



- Androstan

[Rane]

I've been doing quite a bit of pondering on Ankh's.  Let's say you have straight Sligh, no Wastes/Ankhs.  Let's say this deck has a speed rating of 8 and a control rating of 5.  Let's now say we add Ankhs.  The deck will have a speed rating of 6 and a control Rating of 7.  Now that we have Ankhs, Wastes are kinda like disruptive 0cc Shocks, so we add them to and we go to speed rating 5, control 8.  Then if we have Ankhs and Wastes it seems that we may as well get Dwarven Miners as they are tech in the mirror, can attack like a Monkey, and can act like Grims with disrupt.  We now have a speed rating 4 control 9.

It's not new news that Ankh is more controlish than Sligh and lacks some of the speed, my question is where to draw the line.  As soon as you add Ankhs, it seems like you can't not add Wastes, and then Miners.  It appears to be an all-or-one deal.  With this, is the control element straying to much fro the speed that makes Sligh good?  I mean Pups become even less efficient when you drop a seconed turn Ankh instead of bolting a blocker.  I used to Waste+Bolt second turn and attack, then drop Ankh third.  Then I realised that dropping Ankh instead gives me equal dmg, better choice of Land D if he was baiting, and leaves a Bolt in my hand.  It just seems to me now that 'Ankh Sligh', is not really 'Ankh Sligh' rather it's just 'Ankh'.  As soon as I add Ankhs I may as well make a mana denial/land d deck and forget about attacking.

Anyone's thoughts on this?

[Fëanor]

Makes perfect sense Rane.
What you need to remember is that, while Ankh is without a doubt control, the deck before Ankh was a happy BuRn.dec that we had a lot of fun with back in the days of 1.5 (that's the way it was for me). I first got interested in the idea of Ankh because a great frnd of mine (metamage) told me mono-red isn't even viable unless it plays Ankh. Really while Ankh changes the theme of the deck, it's more like the passage for red into competitive. If you dropped Ankh, you'd be down to gobbo again, and gobbo hasn't seen much success.
We are Sligh creators at heart. We created Sligh packed with bolts and beasties (and Munky's ), then we made it worth playing competitively. Gerrymander once posted a Dream Halls deck here on TMD. Everyone said dream halls was unplayable, and it technically is. With innovtion comes birth of abstract thought. There was certainly still some way to keep playing Dream Halls in T1 and make it at least viable. But no one saw that and they quickly dismissed it in favor of some tried and true archtype. I argue with Sytupal all the time about his Dragon deck. I have attempted all my magic playing years to create some immaginative way to win games. Here comes dragon with some great combo/strategy and everything else goes down the drain. I really do hate archtypes with a passion and truly it's the only reason why i havent posted much here. The Open forums are full of copied ways to win. I could get power and play keeper, or get workshops and play MUD, but i don't play strictly to win, I play both to win and have fun.
Basically, in conclusion, i think while we can't get rid of the evil things we face today, we have to learn to deal with them. Ankh fits that purpose. Sure our decks are slower, but it isn't simply that we want to outrun, just make sure, stupid dragon builds don't place first anymore DAMN YOU DRAGON!!!!!...ahem...now where were we?

I had a long talk with someone about 'Mancer....it still hurts to know that mogg fanatic is on our tails. I just dont really know what to do with him anymore. Sure 'Mancer is a great card, but think, the decks that play him have control backup to save him from death. The reason why I placed him in this deck was:
1. It wastes less mana than Scroll.
2. Synergy with Fireblast.
3. Another creature that can deal damage instead of sit in play if it can't be  used.
4. recycles Bolts into Shocks.
A reason that Anrdostan and I have been debating is because of its usefulness against rising aggro and bug creature decks. But, now i see that often the drawback of the card is too unfortunate. What a waste of turn one to play something that will be killed next turn by swords or fire. So in light of this, i am going to go back to playing fanatics for a while and see how they fare. 'Mancers still kick ass but now that ive thought about it for a while, it depends largely on what you go up against. I'll be back after much testing to tell all my descision, in the mean time, pleasse feel free to dicuss such things.
And Since 'Mancers will be missing, I might throw in a couple scroll depending on where i play. It would something like:

- 4 'Mancer
+ 4 Mogg fanatic

- # PoP
+ # Scroll

Please tell me if im doing the right thing by retesting these.

Peace

[Rane]

Scroll should be in anyway lol.  Scroll doesn't need testing, it's a GREAT card.  It's just whether or not it fits in the deck.  I said before that Mancer and Scroll are completly different cards that fulfill different purposes but you still treat them to similarly.  Scroll is constant colourless dmg the whole game, that can also be directed to take out blockers and turn every TD into whatever it is + a shock.  Mancer can be used to take out pesky creatures when you have used your burn, can go to the head when the ground game stalls out, and can attack if you run out of fodder for it.  Scroll is a great card by itself, not in relation to mancer.  Mancer is what we want all Sligh creatures to be.  Attackers than can turn into continuous burn to the head when the ground game stalls out.

And again you don't cast either of these card first turn, or you're asking to lose.  Unless you have a Ruby your first turn should always be Pup or Cadets, with SOME matchups having the exclusion of dropping Shaman instead if you have it.  Fanatic is just a far inferior Mancer.  Nobody is going to Swords a fanatic, and if they Swords a Mancer then they must be in trouble and you didn't lose CA or anything.  The only reason I would put in Fanatic now is if I was in a HEAVY aggro environment with mirror like fog.  In which case I would replace Cadets with Fanatics and still leave Mancers in cause they are still better.

On the note of Ankh Sligh I'm trying to figure out where to draw the line.  If Miners go in it loses pretty much all tempo and becomes Land Destruction.  Wastes, whilst disruptive don't cause dmg without Ankh out.  Ankh does provide dmg but kills your ground game and makes it more worthwhile to use Wastes and Miners...

[Androstanolone]

Obviously sligh has morphed and become much more controllish over the years.  When tempest came out and they printed jackal pup and scroll, sligh was fast.  Kill you by turn 4 consistently?  Wow!  But the format kept getting faster and red couldn't keep up, lackey is the only truly explosive card sligh could have.  So we got ankh sligh, a deck that slowly trickles in damage while slowing the opponent down enough so sligh can keep up.  

It's also obvious that ankh has mad synergy in a land destruction deck.  Between ankh and pillar, it's possible to make a somewhat scary land destruction deck.  If you MD ankh without a real mana denial aspect, it loses all that synergy and just becomes another source of a few damage, more of you're lucky, zero if you're unlucky.  But if you use it in land destruction you hit some of the common problems with that archetype, primarily sluggishness.  Rane's post got me thinking about if ankh + pillar + LD might be somewhat viable, besides being sluggish it also involves a lot of self-pain so I donno.  

The weird thing about ankh is it *can* make sligh faster, by dealing 2 extra damage per turn, it can do 6-8 damage or more if they have to drop a fetch.  Or it can make sligh a lot slower, by being a late game draw that should have been a burn spell.  I won't lie, I've questioned the use of ankh before, if for nothing else than that it violates one of my basic principles of sligh, minimizing dead draws.  It's also 2cc.  I don't know how much faster an ankhless version would be though.  It'd look something like this:

16 dorks

12 bolts
4 cursed scroll
4 price of progress
3 fireblast

21 mana

with my SB being like this:

4 scald
4 pillar
4 meekstone
3 rack and ruin

You may even work in some skullclamps in place of a price and a land or a price and a scroll.  Clamp has some antisynergy with scroll though, as they both tie up mana and one wants your hand empty and the other wants to replenish it.  You'd still run 5 strips, they're just too good.  The main question though, is whether this version is truly faster at dealing damage than ankh sligh.  

I think that a version like this is more consistent, as ankh simply sucks to be TDed while this deck has no dead late draw other than weenies.  And those draws *may* be able to be cycled through via clamp.  In being more consistent I'd have to go with the logical conclusion that extra consistency = more speed in a deck like sligh.  You also have the great synergy between mancer , scroll, and fireblast.  Secondly, I get to MD cursed scroll again ^_^.  Lastly, other decks have gotten to the point that many don't need lots of lands to win, with the exception being control.  This is kinda what ric was getting to, and one of the few decent points he made.  

So is it time to toss out the ankh in favor of a more redundant and consistent build, with more inherent synergies such as between scroll and mancer, and perhaps clamp and mancer?  Also a deck that prevents the loss in tempo of ankh?  Ankh forces you to play it as early as possible to be good, preventing the fluid slighish tempo that it consistently produces turns 1-3 by tapping out and playing several things each turn.  It's true that ankh has power against dragon, but dragon simply has not had a great presence lately, as every deck MD's or SB's some hate for it.  Or should we keep the ankh in and change the core of the deck to land destruction and mana denial?  At first glance I don't think a land destruction deck can be good enough, fetchlands have made mana bases way better, and land destruction spells often become overcosted shocks.  So I'd say the former.  I don't think ankh/pillar LD is quite reliable enough.  

R Rancor, not in typical sligh, but in goblin sligh hell yes.  You could run like 24 goblins, 4 bolts, 4 chains, 4 grenades, and 4 rancors.  Plus 20 land.  Rancor would be pure power in that kind of deck, as all your weenies are now 3/1 tramplers for RR, combined with goblins like piledriver, lackey, mogg fanatic, warchief, etc.  An R rancor would just be sick.  Actually, I'd go with 2 chains and have 2 final fortune's in the MD as tech.  In a deck like that a single extra creature swing can easily win it.  I salivate.  I donno if grenade is necessarily an automatic inclusion though, it may not be needed since your weenies will be useful much further into the game now.  You could replace 2 grenades with 2 chains, plus 2 fireblast.  Or 4 more goblins, I donno, there's lots of possibilities to test and now I'm all excited.  *wakes up* shit, it was all a dream, there is no Adrenalin .  I think if it was printed, it'd be "target creature gains +2/+0 and has haste" since haste is a more red ability.  This would be less useful against aggro since you can't make a trampling 16/2 piledriver, but you can get your piledrivers big quicker, and 3/1 weenies with haste for RR aren't so bad at all.  

What does everyone else think about potentially cutting ankh?



- Androstan

[Gbj]

Hi everyone,
i try to answer sowe issue:

What a waste of turn one to play something that will be killed next turn by swords or fire. So in light of this, i am going to go back to playing fanatics for a while and see how they fare. 'Mancers still kick ass but now that ive thought about it for a while, it depends largely on what you go up against

I am glad to see Fëanor has arrived to this conclusion, simply Mancer doesn't belong to this deck and can't substitute Cursed Scroll or a creature slot.

For me the debate is not between Mancer and Fanatic, but i am seriously thinking to cut Pup over Fanatic. (and don't play Mancer, obviously).
This is for match like Madness, mirror, Goblin, Fish, RG Beatz, even TnT or wMUD, ecc...
Against control Pup is stronger, but only if you can attack 2 turns in a row.
Attacking only one turn make the same damage ('cause you can always sacrifice Fanatic to deal the extra dmg).
But if you can attack 2 or more turns just mean only one thing. You are already winning. You have depleted opponent resource in the previous turns and now you are finishing the opponent. Doesn't care at this point one or two damage, you are already in a winning position.

What does everyone else think about potentially cutting ankh?

This answer is simple: you are not more playing Control (Ankh) Sligh. You are trying to go the route of beatdown, so you better playing Gobbo Advantage or Food Chain Combo.

I see in some list the use of Mishra's Factory. Now, because you are thinking to cut Mancer, isn't stronger Barbarian Ring ? Obviously with Fireblast in main deck. Try to think... Mishra have to be able to attack to deal damage. Barbarian deals damage immediately (with threshold, ok, but with two maindeck you draw it only in midgame). Is the same motive because you play Fanatic over Mancer. Speed. Flexibility. Win now, not after...

Ok, i have finished. I think there is room for a good debate.

[Androstanolone]

Then I think it's also obvious that, if we're including ankh, we need to become more controlling.  We need enough mana denial to make it significantly disrupting, basically like Rane said, we need to go one way or the other.  The thing is I think a deck like this would be even weaker against fast aggro, and just more slow and sluggish overall.  I played with an ankhless sligh, the one I posted, last night.  It was faster than the ankh version, had better tempo, and was more consistent.  It's still aggro control, shaman and cursed scroll are both control cards. I think ankh may just be too slow of a control card in T1 now, in addition to simply not being disruptive enough, and though scroll is somewhat slow it can help in the aggro matchup.  Red stompy depends on creatures to bring the life total to zero, and also depends on lackey for a lot of its speed.  Anyway, I'm liking the discussion, it's healthy and quite productive.  



- Androstan