GM :  I can tell you from experience (both mine and that of other members of my playgroup) that 5-color sliver decks don't tend to work without dual lands.  Barring that (should that turn out to be too expensive), you need to get your hands on City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, and Thran Quarry - all of which can give you any color mana.  Barring that, all your lands should be similar to the Elfhame Palace psuedo-dual or, better than nothing, the Lairs (Treva's Ruins, etc.).  Mana-screw is extremely difficult to overcome in a deck like this without specialty lands.

     If you have to run mainly basic lands, at the very least find yourself a playset of Darksteel Ingots (and eventually phase them out with better lands).





     A much weaker slot than Crystalline Sliver.  The Crystalline is the be-all, end-all, must-have sliver for any sliver deck that wants to protect its creatures.  Problem is, the Sliver Overlord's ability targets slivers, which can't be done under Crystalline, nor do many of the newer slivers' abilities work in conjunction with the Crystalline (also because their abilities target).



     Nice to have a 2/2 for 2cc, but its ability is too limited.  If you find yourself with a good amount of mana (quantity-wise, if not color-wise), I've found Acidic Sliver to be a better choice - they allow you to take out opponents' dangerous creatures.




     Against other creature-based decks, Talon Sliver is a 4-of.  Pop one out and you can gang up on any creature out there, not losing yours (plus they work beautifully with your Hunter Slivers).  



     You need 4 Winged Slivers.  There aren't a lot of decks that play flyers (even in most casual groups the creatures tend to be ground-based), and once your slivers have flying, you can fly over and deal damage at will.




     Again, a 4-of in a sliver deck.  This is one of the only guys that automatically make your slivers bigger if you're not using Coat of Arms - all the others force you to spend mana to beef them up, mana that can better be spent producing more slivers.





     If you stick to low casting cost slivers (I recommend two cc, three at the very most, and then only for extremely valuable slivers), Coat of Arms absolutely works to your advantage.  Here's why :

1)  By the time you're ready to cast the Coat, you've already got 4 or 5 slivers out, and their abilities drawf that of other creature types

2)  You have the ability to make more slivers, again, something that other tribal decks don't have.  Your creatures will be the biggest on the board and have better abilities to boot.

     You cast the Queen, start pumping baby slivers out, and pop out the Coat.  By that time, they're all untargetable, flying, first strikers.


     If you absolutely can't see yourself playing Coats, you might consider a white enchantment from Onslaught called Shared Triumph.  It costs 1W, and when it comes into play you choose a creature type.  Creatures of that type get +1/+1 as long as the enchantment stays in play (basically giving you 8 Muscle Slivers).     It isn't as great as the Coat, obviously, but it has the advantage of being cheaper (both dollar-wise and mana-wise).


     Most of the non-creature spells (Mantle, BoP, Untamed, Journey) you're carrying in this deck are unnecessary if you have a good mana base :



     Guided Passage might be a fun card to play, but it has three serious disadvantages :

1)  It allows your opponent to go through your deck, telling him everything that you can do.

2)  It has three different colors in its casting cost - a difficult cost without a stable mana base.

3)  You don't get to choose.


     You'd be much better off with a Demonic Tutor (or Diabolic Tutor, or even Diabolic Intent).
 


     Dark Ritual has more uses in your current build than mine (I have none in my deck, since there are only a handful of spells - Coat, Sliver Queen - that cost more than 2 mana to play.  I can see that it might be helpful with the 4 and 5 casting cost slivers you run, but I'd recommend trimming them (and the Dark Rit) from the build - they're just too slow compared to other tribal decks.


     Arrest and Attrition...Attrition has the drawback of not targetting black creatures, and Arrest is a one-shot deal.  Acidic Sliver is, IMO, a better option, as it allows you to sacrifice any sliver for the desired effect, and can target any color creature.


     Renewed Faith shouldn't be needed to keep you alive.  If the other decks are starting too fast for you, that should tell you that you need to use cheaper creatures, allowing you a faster start as well.


     Once you get your deck optimized, you should be able to beat the snot out of any other casual tribal deck, but slivers are also more expensive a build, due to the special land/mana requirements.


     For the record, here is my current build :

5-Color Sliver


Lands (28) (yeah, it's a high number)

4 Gemstone Mine
2 Thran Quarry
3 Scrubland
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
2 Badlands
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

Non-Creature Spells (4)

1 Demonic Tutor
3 Coat of Arms

Creatures (28)

1 Metallic Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Talon Sliver
4 Winged Sliver
4 Clot Sliver
2 Acidic Sliver
1 Heart Sliver
2 Horned Sliver (likely to be replaced - too expensive)
2 Sliver Queen


     Looks like too much land on paper, but the high dual count assures me a land drop virtually every turn for the first 4/5 turns, allowing the deck to play extremely well.  Typical game starts out Turn 1 dual and/or Metallic, Turn 2 dual and Crystalline, Turn 3 dual and 2cc sliver, Turn 4 dual and 2cc sliver plus Tutor if needed, Turn 5 dual and Coat or Queen...  After that, the game's pretty much won...  Even if you just keep drawing lands, each land is another half a sliver.

     It's not perfect, but it's definitely fun.  

From Toad :



     If your opponent has to just sit there for the duration of the game while you play spells, it isn't a fun game.  Magic is supposed to be about interaction - interaction between cards and between players.

     For instance, I despise land destruction decks.  There is nothing fun about watching every land you play get nuked while you take a slow beatdown from a Kird Ape.


     So the problem then becomes, how do you word the "ban?"  Do you come up with a list of specific cards?  Do you simply try to word the introduction in such a way as to make it clear what types of decks you wish to avoid being posted (with the inherent danger of some people still not grasping the subject)?



Ephraim said :



     I agree.  I don't think it's possible to be able to make a blanket statement on casual decks - after all, Fish came about from, if I remember correctly, what was supposed to have been just a casual merfolk deck of Phantom Tape Worm's, but was discovered to be able to reliably defeat Keeper, even in Fish's early incarnations.

     You can also look at some of the other decks out there in the past couple of years and see a good deal of cards that most people would agree usually wouldn't make it out of casual play had mad scientists like the Vintage Adepts here not started experimenting.

     Goblin Welder, considered by most to be the most dangerous creature in the game, was ignored for years - as were Intuition (hell, I bought 4 for $1 apiece a few years back), Sphere of Resistance, Brainstorm, Gush, etc.  



Malhavoc posted :



     Absolutely.  There is always that theme deck you've wanted to build (something incredibly slow like a Minotaur deck, or basing a deck around Carnival of Souls, Coalition Victory, or even...The Cheese Stands Alone!!!) that will never give even mid-level Type I decks a run for their money, but are fun to play in groups.

     That doesn't mean they're not worth trying to improve, it just means that Magic players more interested in winning at all costs rather than socializing with friends don't need to bother reading it - hence, the "casual" forum.

What kind of discussion are you looking for out of this, JP?  Are you asking for help, or simply posting the deck for general perusal...?


     Are you asking for our opinions on the quality of specific cards, or maybe how to try to tweak the deck to perform better in your metagame?

     If so, what is your metagame?  Tournament Type I, tournament Extended, casual, multi-player...?

     You haven't angered me.  The Rec/Sur build/s simply went away from the desired changes to the deck, and I wanted to try to steer any future conversation back towards a purely Sneak Attack build.  I've played an old version of Rec/Sur (and currently have a Reanimator deck as well), but it wasn't what I was asking for when I started this thread.  I'm simply looking to tweak Sneak Attack...make it a bit faster / more dangerous, and throw my group off with a new "look" so they don't automatically know what it is when I lay my first land card down.  





     You and I both, brother.  Hell, I just posted my "Simon and Garfunkel" deck the other day...






     That's got to be some of the sickest synergy I've seen for Sneak Attack yet !!!   ROFLMAO !!!    I love it.  Looks like it's time for me to start trading for the new Dragon Legends.  


     Many thanks for the card ideas.  I hadn't even known about half of these (Plunge, Dragon legends, Vengeance).

     No such thing as a good Magic deck that doesn't require you to use your brain.  

     Have you played the RecSur build much in multiplayer situations?

     Yeah, I'm aware of Anger.  That just means you've got five cards (Birds, 2 Quirion, Rofellos, Anger - not including Squee, not including the Survival) that you're depending on to be where you need them to be, not running into creature removal, not running into graveyard hate, not running into disenchant effects, etc.

     Like I said before, it's hard to imagine a deck this...involved with itself (dependent on multiple card combinations) not having trouble against anything with control, but it looks so damned fun that I'm definitely going to have to proxy some cards up to see how well I can run it in this meta.  You say that every card is a threat, and I'm going to have to take your word on that - and then do my best to prove you right.

     Yes.  As I said in my previous post, it's difficult to conceive of a game (at least in my meta) where that many mana-producing creatures are allowed to stay in play.  Birds of Paradise and Rofellos are instant targets the second they hit the board, so they need to be able to be used within a turn or two.


      That said, I'm going to have to (at least) proxy up this deck just to have the pleasure of playing a deck that involves so many intricacies.  If it is as resilient as you say, it's certainly head and shoulders above my current R/G build.  Thanks !

     Duals aren't a problem.  I went out of my way during Revised to acquire as many of them as possible, and have traded away only one the entire time I've played Magic (and I've regretted that trade ever since).  I'd just have to decide which other deck (have over a hundred decks, mostly funsy) to rip them out of...





     I've got two, but probably won't be able to get more anytime soon.  Not sure I like them much in this build, even though I see the potential with Squee and the other lesser creatures digging out the beatsticks.  

     Speaking of creatures, I'm not overly enthusiastic about a few of the creature choices in this build.  Perhaps you can explain them :




-    I fail to see what use the Quirions would be in this deck.  What am I missing?

-    Azusa...  Why not simply drop a turn one Exploration?

-    Rofellos...  Do you ever actually find yourself needing that much green mana?  I see how they might help cold-cast a few of the beats (in conjunction with the Birds), but you're asking a lot to be able to have Birds and Rofellos remain on the board in a multi-player (or halfway-competitive 1-on-1) game...

-    Wall of Roots......  C'mon, man.....  You'll have to do some serious convincing to make me think any wall belongs in a Sneak Attack build, let alone a vanilla mana-producer...  This seems to me to be a worse choice than even Moment's Peace.

-    Joiner Adept...  Theme time...  4 color deck, Mana-birds, Adept - How often do you find yourself mana-hosed with this deck?




     Sneak Attack already gives your drops haste...  Do you really find Anger to have an important enough effect to include him in the build?  Rofellos and the Birds are the only creatures (okay, add Necromancers) that would benefit from his presence...  Seems a little limited in scope?




     Would you rather draw the Necromancer, or another beat?  Adding another color (black) for 5 slots doesn't seem efficient (although I flat out drool over the prospect of Sneaking a Kokusho).




     Rector (damned near killed her) was one of the possibilities I'd debated with a G/R/W build...  Only problem remains how to get the thing into the graveyard/rfg from play...




     Do you find 1 Squee to be enough?  His synergy with Survival should probably be enough to deserve at least one more slot...  Better to pull out 2 beats through Survival than 1, especially if you're playing multi-player, or if your opponent has blockers / attackers...  I do realize that the other weenies can also serve as Survival fodder, but Squee's ability is too good to pass up, I would think...





     Love the potential, but her 6WWW CC looks a bit difficult to cold cast, leaving the only method of having her in play enough to make a difference by utilizing the Necromancers...

     I can see a lot of interaction between the various pieces / creatures in this build, and it does look like a lot of fun, but it seems a bit more problematic - almost combo-dependent, due to the lack of redundancy.

     What kinds of decks do you have problems with?  If the Survival gets countered/disenchanted, does the deck stand a shot?


     Man, I'd forgotten all about Kokusho...

With the introduction of the Urza's block, I thought it would be a great idea to make a deck involving all four cardinal direction Paladins, but until Masques came out with the Distorting Lens, it wasn't really worthwhile.

Here goes :

Holy Compass

Lands (24)
10 swamp
10 plains
4 Scrubland


Creatures (18)
4 Northern Paladin
4 Southern Paladin
4 Eastern Paladin
4 Western Paladin
2 Juggernaut (just for a threat)


Spells (18)
4 Dark Ritual
1 Sol Ring
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Distorting Lens
4 Disenchant
2 Dingus Staff
1 Charcoal Diamond
2 Righteous War


Card Explanations

     Northern and Southern Paladins have the added bonus of reading "target permanent," allowing me to hose peoples' mana bases if gotten out early enough with a Lens.

     The 2 Dingus Staff were put in to provide an additional method of dealing damage, since the Paladins end up locking down the board (and using mana) more often than simply swinging away, but the 4cc is a bit much for a deck already loaded down with 4cc's...

     The Charcoal Diamond is in there for additional mana - even though it sucks donkey song.  I'll definitely be looking for something ot replace it with.

     The 2 Righteous War were put in there to avoid the Northern and Southern being nailed by black creature removal and by each other if one of my creatures is Controlled by an opponent.  More often than not, however, they end up being a wasted slot.


     Suggestions for these 5 slots (I'll probably add another Distorting Lens, since the deck depends so heavily on them)?

     Creature-based decks without much creature control simply roll over to this deck, even in multi-player...  Its speed (or lack thereof) works against it, though.

EDIT (2-22-05):  This is a funsy deck.  I'm not really looking to scrap the deck and build RecSur (in which Sneak Attack would be an afterthought).  I'm not looking to dismantle the entire deck save 4 or 5 cards - I'm looking to tweak it - change it a bit here, change it a bit there, perhaps exchange a color for a new one...    Thanks.  end edit

Edit #2 (also 2-22-05):  Although I didn't put it in the subject heading, keep in mind that this deck tends to see more multiplayer action than 1-on-1 competition, so it needs to be able to finish multiple opponents off within a couple of turns of landing the Sneaks.  end edit #2





This used to be one of only two decks I had in non-standard sleeves, until my gaming group started saying, "Ooh, black sleeves - It's Sneak Attack - Kill him!" and I never got past turn two...  

     I used to have Pandemonium in the deck, but the second I played it, the rest of the table targeted me, and I was dead.   (recurring theme?)


Anywho, I'm looking for a way to possibly speed this deck up, as in, better ways to ensure that I have that Sneak Attack since, without Sneak Attack and Elvish Piper, this deck is S...L...O...W...

     I'm open to a color change only if the majority of the selected creatures in the new color have synergy with Sneak Attack, as once I get it out, the game is almost always over for the rest of the table.  

Here it is :

Sneak Attack or Green / Red Instant Death

Creatures (26)
2 Llanowar Elves (probably shouldn't be in there, since they aren't Sneak targets, but I need to get that enchantment out as soon as possible in order to have a chance - willing to lose them to speed search)
2 Elvish Piper (to drop creatures permanently into play - slow, though)

1 Genesis (awesome synergy with Sneak Attack, Greater Good, and the other creatures)

4 Weatherseed Treefolk (Sneak Attack's EOT effect doesn't phase him...)
4 Shivan Phoenix (ditto, and he's a flyer to boot)
2 Crater Hellion (for those pesky weenie hordes - saves my hide virtually every time I drop one)

4 Penumbra Wurm (again, synergy with Sneak Attack's EOT effect)
2 Thorn Elemental

2 Symbiotic Wurm (Sneak Attack's EOT effect gives me a small army)
3 Avatar of Might (can cold-cast with ACCost against weenie hordes also)


Spells (10)
4 Sneak Attack
2 Greater Good (nothing like drawing more fatty threats)
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
2 Moment's Peace (again, more than willing to lose these if there's a way to speed up the deck - these were put in there simply to keep me alive long enough to be able to find and use the Sneak)

Land (24)
12 forest
12 mountain


     I've thought about splashing white for Sterling Groves, but the mana base is iffy as is, let alone adding a third color.  I have duals and a few fetches, Gemstone Mines, etc., so I can probably get by with a three color monstrosity...

     There's also black for Tutors, but neither black nor white have creatures (that I've thought of, anyway) that have synergy on par with green's with the Sneak Attack.

     Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Keep in mind that my finances are very limited at this time (thanks, NAFTA), so anything over $10 is probably out of the question for a funsy deck (ie: no Serra Avatar, Power, Bazaar-type stuff).

     Thanks, folks !

     I see 2 Cloak of Mists, but very little else in the way of clearing a path for the Guild Masters...  Have you actually played this deck much yet, and if so, have the Guild Masters been worth the four (six, with Cloaks) slots?



     Also, have you considered the Odyssey standbys Traumatize and Haunting Echoes?  Or Supreme Inquisitors?  Are Millstone-like effects fair game, or does it absolutely have to be removed from the game?




     I see absolutely nothing in your deck or sideboard that would give you any indication of what card is on the top of your opponent's library...  6 mana is a little steep for a guessing game...  Don't get me wrong - I love the Booby Trap in a deck built to take advantage of it, but the card has no place in this deck - or sideboard.

@bebe



     I think it probably has something to do with the lack of responses.  Look down the lists and see how many replies these threads actually get - it's basically pretty negligible.

     Too many people seem to have lost sight of Magic being "just for fun" and a social activity, as opposed to balls to the wall Type I brokenness for the sole purpose of winning tournaments.

     Most serious players aren't going to "waste" their time in this forum, and most casual players come to TMD for a glimpse of tournament godliness, forgetting that their favorite deck of all time was the "pimple" theme deck or their prized Firebreathing Ornithopters....

     Not me.  While I'm going to continue to try to make a deck that is actually tournament worthy, I'm not going to forget my roots in Magic.

     Beware the Holy Compass (Northern, Southern, Eastern, Western Paladins with Distorting Lenses), tremble in fear (feigned or otherwise) from the Mythic Proportioned Academy Researcher, and quake in your booties at the awesome sight of an incoming Swamp Mosquito.....

     We very seldom get to play Emperor (6 players is a large group for us - we usually get between three and five).  That said, we've done the following :

Emperor can cast spells anywhere.
Knights (Lt.'s) can only attack / cast spells at the Emp. once the Knight barring their path is dead
Emperor can "pass" creatures to his Knights (sorcery speed) if said creatures have spent an entire turn under his control, but they then have summoning sickness again for the Knight.

     Flat out - the players are not allowed to play prison-based garbage, and the Emperor neither prison or combo, including alternate-win conditions like Test of Endurance.  There is NO FUN involved in sitting and watching a game you're supposed to be involved in.

     You've got to have the right kind of players for an Emperor game, and experience levels also need equalized.

First off, don't even consider this deck against anything tournament worthy - counter the Songs and it's pretty dead in the water...  it uses enchantments to neutralize your opponents' creatures (while dealing damage) and creatures that can't be targeted themselves...

Secondly - I'm not old enough to have seen Simon and Garfunkel, but I grew up listening to the parents' 45's, so there ya go......

Decklist :

Spells (22)
4 Song of Serenity (The Sound of Silence)
4 Wanderlust (the anti-Homeward Bound / 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover)
4 Insubordination
4 Festering Wound
4 Parasitic Bond (The Boxer)
1 Demonic Tutor (Mrs. Robinson?)  
1 Demonic Consultation (Still Crazy After All These Years)

Creatures (14)
3 Nimble Mongoose (Slip Slidin' Away)
1 Blurred (Kodachrome?) Mongoose
2 Pincer Beetles    
2 Jolrael's Centaur
2 Citanul Centaurs
2 Blastoderm (I Am a Rock)
2 Gigapede


Lands (24)
12 swamps
12 forests

     I should have 4 Troll Ascetic to go with both themes (creatures that can't be targeted - trolls under the Bridge Over Troubled Water), but I haven't gotten my hands on them yet...  I'll likely ditch the Centaurs and Beetles for the Trolls and 2 more Blastys.

     I may end up adding a couple of Naturalizes in place of a couple of lands, as the deck has no way of dealing with anything other than creatures as is...

edit : I'm also looking at tossing in a couple of Argothian Enchantresses for card advantage, due to the large number of enchantments in the deck...   end edit

     Any other suggestions?

     I'd have probably been forced to try something stupid with the various "Tims" out there (Prodigal, Ice Age, Merfolk, etc.), but we'll stick with "The Birds" for now...  








     While I'm sure you're deadset on the Keeper and the Orb, I think I'd rather have Opposition.  It works sooooo much better than the Keeper (something I actually paid money for before I realized how much better the oppositions I already had in the deck were).


     Something else that may be missing, depending on whether you want to win with beatdown or have friends playing a lot of creature removal, is Soulcatcher's Aerie.  I put these in (as opposed to Coat of Arms) to counteract what were becoming common deck types in my area - burn and other tribal decks.  The Aerie's function solely for birds, and make burn players think twice about roasting your Hawks/Falcons.

     I've a feeling, though, that your Faces take the same slot as my Aeries...




     Okay, I understand the cheap part (in fact, I also have the Hawks in my build), but the Envoys...Is an 0/2 really worth a slot?  Why not a Skyshroud Condor, a Stormscape Familiar, a Coast Watcher, or a Welkin Hawk?  Each of these choices offers a better alternative (CW = pro-green, Welkin = recursion, Condor =2/2, Familiar = cheaper white CCs) for one additional mana.


Here's my decklist to compare/contrast :

Creatures (25)
4 Suntail Hawk
2 Stormscape Familiar
4 Sage Owl
1 Skyshroud Falcon
2 Welkin Hawk
2 Skyshroud Condor
3 Coast Watcher
2 Aven Smokeweaver (an overreaction to burn)
1 Aven Cloudchaser (for those pesky enchantments)
1 Cloudchaser Eagle (same thing, different name)
1 Commander Eesha (probably too expensive)
1 Major Teroh (ditto)
1 Radiant, Archangel (yeah, yeah, yeah...so it isn't a bird - it's BIG, it flies, and it doesn't tap to attack)  :lol:

Spells (11)
3 Soulcatchers' Aerie
1 Theft of Dreams (should almost certainly be another Airborne)
2 Opposition
1 Airborne Aid
4 Battle Screech (thinking of taking one out - I draw them an awful lot)

Lands
11 plains
11 islands
2 Seaside Haven (my version of Skullclamp - I have yet to see opportunity to prove the synergy, but I'm still hoping that they'll show up in the same damned games as the Aeries...)


     It's pretty obvious that you have a more stable base of creatures due to the cheaper casting costs (not to mention mine looks more than a little haphazard due to trying to counteract too many things instead of just "doing my thing")...

     I'll still maintain my stance on Opposition over Keeper, though.

I'll start this off by saying that I play a ton of multi-player, and that this deck was put together because a few people in my group were complaining about the frequency with which a few other players were using Syphon Soul.

     So, of course, I put together a deck designed to play a whole bunch of spells that would instantly declare me as the target for the entire board. :lol:

     Since this deck was designed to lose (hell, I thought everybody would gun for me - and they do), I have been alternately surprised and disgusted at how often this deck pulls off the win...  


Multi-Player Piss-Off

Mana Base
12 swamp
9 mountain


Creatures (or "Chumps to keep me alive")
4 Wall of Souls
4 Maggot Carrier


Creature Control (or "More Crap to keep me alive")
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Terminate
4 Vicious Hunger


Damage Dealing
4 Flame Rift
4 Sizzle
4 Acidic Soil
4 Copper Tablet
3 Syphon Soul
1 Subversion


My Savior
1 Zuran Orb


NOTES

     On the surface, this deck should suck, but I underestimated the power of cheap casting cost spells (there is only one card in the deck that costs more than 3 mana), and doing 3-4 points per turn ends the games pretty quickly.

     The mana base may need adjustment - I've found myself mana screwed for red lately, but I was originally worried about the casting cost of the BB spells...



Card Specifics

Wall of Souls - With a deck that deals damage like this, opponents tend to be very anxious to attack me - the longer the game goes on, the better my chances of winning.  The Walls have proven to be an exceptional stalling method, since nobody wants to take any more additional damage.

Maggot Carrier - Early damage (and every point counts), they also act as early mini-beats if an opponent is slow to bring creatures on board, and as chump blockers once players realize they have to get rid of you...

Maze of Ith and Ensnaring Bridge - Both of these cards prevent me from losing large amounts of damage to the fatties that eventually hit the board, and Ensnaring Bridge has the added advantage of drawing disenchant effects away from the ZOrb.

Terminate - Lays waste to everything but pro-creatures.  An absolute must-have when fatties start rolling my way.

Vicious Hunger - I considered these slots the weakest in the deck while initially building it, but they've proven very effective.  The damage done by this deck generally hits everybody on the board, and the life gain from Hunger, combined with its creature removal capabilities, has proven to be worth it's weight in gold in this slot.  

     I considered dumping them for Browbeats, but the damned Hungers end up saving my hide far too often to justify their removal (I may still experiment).


Flame Rift, Sizzle, Copper Tablet, Syphon Soul - Nothing like painting a big target on your butt...  These are the main early-mid game spells that put your opponents in position for the coup de grace :

Acidic Soul - The end.  By this time, most people are well below ten in life, and have been laying a land every turn (most generally have at least 5 out).  It doesn't matter to me in these particular games if I die, as long as I take everybody with me, but I'm usually lucky enough to draw into the Zuran Orb a turn or two before playing the Acidic Soils...

Subversion - Certainly a questionable slot.  This was put in here for those games where I'm not drawing the requisite spells, and the game is drawing out too long, with too many opponents still posing a threat.  I'd rip it out for a second Zuran Orb, but I don't want to draw a second Orb ever, whereas more damage coupled with life gain is almost always welcome.



     Direct damage rarely phases this deck due to the life gain.  Weenie hordes aren't generally fast enough.  The sheer repetitiveness of the damage spells means less susceptibility to counter magic.  Fatties are slowed by the Walls, Maze, Bridge, and Terminates.


     So, my question to you folks is :

Do you see any way to speed up the deck, ie : any cheap red or black (or artifact) spells that I may have missed that can do more damage than those I've selected?


I know, I know...  This deck looks like utter garbage (and it should be), but it does surprisingly well, even to the point of beating a Type I U/G Madness deck (unpowered) in 1-on-1 play, so, rather than dismiss it out of hand, try it out - see if it isn't seriously fun to play.  Let me know.

Negator : barring a flying weenie horde, I've found that Abyssals are an outstanding method of keeping your opponents off you in the early stages of chaos / multiplayer games involving a lot of aggro.  Nobody wants to lose their quick starts, so they generally leave you alone.  The danger then comes from the other player/s with board disadvantage, who will do anything possible to get rid of your Gatekeeper, clearing the board and saving their own butt...but by then it's done its job, and you're well on your way to establishing the kind of tempo you want.

     I play almost exclusively chaos / multiplayer during breaks at one of my jobs, and the games usually consist of three or four players (we play Allies / 5-Star if we have five players), so the environment sounds pretty similar to yours.




     Anything with regen can avoid the Oblivion Stones and Deeds.  While the deck may produce a ton of mana, I'd definitely rip the O-Stones out of the build for something along the lines of Edicts (whether Chainer's for the flashback, since you have the mana, or Diabolic for the instant speed) or additional creatures (see below).  Gotta love Mutilate, though...




     Pernicious Deed is golden, obviously...  How about Plague Bearer?  No synergy with the board removal, but he can dust zeroCC critters without breaking a sweat, plus lay waste to tribal decks and possibly keep you from taking those early beats...  Doesn't help much against Pandemonium, but...

     I hesitate to suggest graveyard hate in chaos unless your deck depends on empty graveyards, which, in this case, doesn't apply.


     As for your problems with combo in general...that's always a problem in multiplayer.  Generally speaking, once the rest of the group realizes what deck the combo player is piloting, he's the target.  Is this not so in your group?

From me :



From ThatOneguy :




From moxpearl :




     Yep, as I suspected, I was being a newb.  

     Thanks for the clarification, guys.

From [Supa_T(im)] :



     Lot of draw out there right now, which was one of the reasons why I didn't naysay this card completely.  I'm assuming that some decks currently en vogue would view it as a must-counter /disenchant effect target.  I know Fish dislikes it, since my buddy's Void deck owns my Fish build (not surprising).





     I disagree on Keg's usefulness against Oath.  Keg won't stop Oath itself (creatures and artifacts only), and Null Rod is quicker Mox-hate.  I won't disagree on Keg's usefulness, though.  Against scrub aggro like Fish, FCG, Sligh, etc., or even against Welder variants (provided you have no other artifacts in your graveyard).

     Junk on so many levels.

1)  FAR too mana-intensive - four mana to destroy a single creature is horribly slow.  By the time you could actually use the ability, the game's pretty much decided.

2)  As Jacob Orlove already pointed out, the "big" creatures in Oath will thumb their noses at Kiku, having protection from black.  About the only maindeck Oath creature that Kiku would be useful against would be Colossus.

3)  Stax and Welder will simply outrace you due to mana acceleration and the differences in activation abilities.

4)  Decks like Meandeck Tendrils don't run creatures, so Kiku's 1/1 for BB isn't cost effective when your win condition is beatdown (eight 1/1's and four 2/2's aren't going to win the race in Type I).

5)  Legendary status - even if Kiku could be considered a decent card, only being able to have one out at a time when your win condition is beatdown is a bad drawback.


     Almost anything else would be better in Kiku's place - Nantuko Shade comes to mind first.

     I understand that you're trying to incorporate creature control into your deck, but black has better options (Diabolic Edict) than Kiku.





     I understand your fascination with this guy- I'm sweet on him myself - but not for Type I tournament play.   He's not going to help you against more than a couple of different decks.

- Oath - getting rid of Orchard spirits wouldn't matter, because Bearer still counts, and you'll never have the mana available to get rid of Oath's real threats (again, most of which are pro-black anyway).

- Stax/etc. - popping Welder is a nice effect, but you can do that with Edicts, too.

- Tendrils - nothing

- Goblins - nothing, as he'll be 'bolted before he's useful.  

- Fish - jackpot, if he resolves and survives past Lavamancer and Fire/Ice, but Fish can't exactly be viewed as a real threat to win tournaments nowadays.







     Planar Void might be better...  you've already got the Wretch for cards that make it to the graveyard before Void gets cast.





     More like too, too, slow, DZ.  You're too concerned with creatures, and the piddly ones at that (other than the Welder, there isn't much out there at the top of Type I right now that will ever be affected by the Plague).  At best (at best) this is a sideboard card if you plan on playing in a heavy budget meta.  Trust me on this - I've actually tried this card in Type I - way too slow, way too limited in scope.

     For an investment of 3 mana, you could have a Negator out, putting your opponent on a 4-turn clock.  Plague is too dependent on your opponent.





     I don't have any personal experience with them, but I have a friend who has played Nether Void in Type I tournaments, and he maindecked them when Gro was in its prime.  Even with the draw inherent in that archetype, he said that he still wished more often than not that the Chains would've been creature control - that said, Gro's creatures were better targets than somebody playing Meandeck Tendrils...  

     You may want to consider these as sideboard options only.


     Speaking of which...




     C'mon, man...  Didn't you ever watch The Karate Kid...?  "So-so" (or "pseudo) = "squish, just like grape."

     Going "pseudo" in Type I is like saying "I haven't got a clear idea of what this deck should do, and I'm going to try to imitate the other decks out there, even though I don't have an entire deck to support these pieces..."

     You have no mana acceleration that wouldn't be affected by your own Spheres (in effect, slowing you down more than your opponents), making this a terrible choice.





     Again with the weenie hate?  You've got too many answers to something that isn't a real problem in Type I today...





     Not to beat a dead horse, but this deck's only hope against Oath is an early Duress that doesn't get forced.  Kiku blows.  If the Oath comes into play, you die with this deck.

     Graveyard recursion is Stax and Dragon...there are other decks in this format that don't rely on recursion (Oath, Tendrils, Mono-U, U/G Madness, Belcher to name a few).  Did you mean those are the main decks in your metagame?


     Have you ever read TMD's Legend Suicide primer?  If you're going mono-black, that might be a good place to start.

From your semi's results :




     Am I misunderstanding the post (and being a newb), or was there a bad play error there?


From Crystal Keep, on Orim's Chant :




     Did you counter his spell with Chant, or did he just draw a spell and you Chant'ed during his upkeep before he could play it?

Okay, I lied.  I'm going to throw one more thing out there before I step down from my soapbox...


     I think that there is far more than attending the SCG tournaments to supporting Type I, and here is one example.


     Those of us who don't live in the major metro areas (or have easy access to said areas), fully realize how much of a priviledge and blessing it is to have a good cardshop in your local area.  Prior to this year, my hometown has not had that sort of shop.

     At the beginning of this year / end of last year, a new cardshop opened up locally.  This shop has owners that give a damn, employees that enjoy the game, a decent card selection (no Power, obviously, but pretty much anything under $100, which is very good for Iowa), good prices (at or below internet lows), and responsible management.

     The owners and employees have committed themselves to making sure that they have a steadily-rotating stock (assuring economical prices, steady income for the store, and the bringing back of customers regularly to see "what they've got today").  

     The owners, having seen the failure of so many cardshops in the recent past (we've lost no fewer than 6 shops in the past few years) aren't expanding just to expand - they stick to a few basic games (Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Warhammer), all of which sell extremely well in the area, and they don't over-extend themselves financially.

     They hold tournaments (next one is for a Mana Drain - largest prize I've ever seen offered in this state), and they're starting artist signings (Ron Spencer will be here next month).

     That is what the new shop is doing for Magic.  

     As I said above, those of us who have been without realize how much of a blessing it is to have a good local cardshop, and we've done everything we can to promote the shop (and, ahem...thereby support Type I).

- We spend as much free time there as we can afford, which helps keep other players coming in who might be bored and looking for a game (and are then there to possibly spend money to help the shop).

- Anytime we meet other players, we talk up the new shop and try to make sure that the shop is assured another customer.

- We make the time to attend tournaments there (much easier to do when it only encompasses 1 work shift due to not having the need to travel).

- And yes, we spend our money there, too (when we have any), rather than going over the internet.

     Magic (and Type I) has survived not because of SCG and giant tournaments, but because of individuals who love the game and local card shops that are dedicated to the game.

     Not trying to preach or boast, but I thought I'd point out that there are more ways to "support Type I" than by simply attending the big tournaments.

UFactor states :




     Speak for yourself - something that the original poster should've done as well.  Whether or not it is now easier than it used to be to attend a Type I tournament depends entirely upon many different scenarios.

      First, I live in Iowa (for those of you who don't know, that's the state where we grow Potatoes, all live in Des Moines, and farm the rest of the state during the day).  When Magic first started getting big, it was relatively easy to find tournaments.  There were numerous card shops, Yu-Gi-Oh (I hate to even type the name) and irresponsible ownership hadn't closed down the majority of card shops in the state, and I was in college with disposable income, a decent vehicle, and a number of Magic-playing friends who went to college with me and lived in the main cities where the tournaments were held.

     Fast forward...2005...Economy takes a downswing, I, like many others, am laid off and working multiple jobs just to continue to keep my house, with next to no disposable income and very little actual spare time to play, let alone actually be able to set aside an entire weekend (4 work shifts with two jobs) to attend a Type I event anywhere (notably Chicago, Minneapolis, or St. Louis/Kansas City).

     Financial considerations, time considerations, travel considerations, employment considerations, relationship considerations...  Nobody can intelligently say "the list of excuses to not attend is getting smaller" if they're attempting to speak for everybody else.


     That said -

     I plan on attending the SCG tournaments in Chicago.  I've set aside tiny amounts of money from every paycheck, cut back on "luxuries" like Pepsi, never go to fast food restaurants, etc., in an effort to make it financially feasible.  Hopefully, I'll have the money for gas, a hotel, and food by the time each rolls around.

     Even if I do, however, there remain other issues including the mortgage ($975 a month), utilities (minimum of another $300 a month), vehicle insurance, house insurance, and so on and so forth.  It will all boil down to whether or not I can afford to lose a mimimum of four shifts of pay (likely 5 or 6 if you count Friday as drive time).


     Steve (if I'm correct as to the original poster?) may be blessed enough to have the kind of job where he can afford to do whatever he wishes when he wishes - some of us do not.  Rather than be insulting and demean others by saying they have no reason to not attend tournaments and aren't supporting Type I, he should be thankful that he has the opportunity while others do not.

     Soapbox speech ended....

Mark_Story :

     Thank you for the advice.  That was exactly the sort of thing I was looking for when I opened this thread.  Much obliged!

Hmmm...  Not really sure how I managed the double post...  my apologies...

Diego :

     Many thanks for a very thorough response.  Iowa sucks for top Type I tournament play (closest usually being Chicago (CrazyCon !!!)), so I don't get to see the intricacies of the decks like you guys do.  




     Speaking of which, there's an example...  Haven't seen a whole helluva lot of Tendrils decks around here, so wasn't fully aware of the bounce.  I've seen it played a couple of times in Chicago (and seen the opponent sit there and wait...and wait...and wait), but that's about it.





     Yep, on second thought, I'm not really happy with his activation cost, he doesn't do anything vs. Dragon or Welder, and he's too prone to burn/removal...  There's gotta be more good weenies out there somewhere for this deck...




     True...  I've had pretty poor luck at the few tournies I've attended with non-basic lands (all of a sudden a guy is thrown into an arena where everybody is running 5 Strips...).  This one all boils down to the Empyrial junk...  If I could just wean myself away from it, I'm sure I'd see the light.




     Agreed, but that goes back to my original point about Chalice - with white being as slow as it is, you're only liable to be able to use it for 0 or 1, since anything else is out of white's reach mana-wise, or would hose your own deck (2CC) worse than almost any others'.     Would you try to mulligan until you got a Chalice?



     Thanks again for such a detailed response, Diego.  You guys'll probably have to set me straight for awhile yet, until I can actually get a few more tournies under my belt (hell, who am I kidding, probably even after that!!!). :lol:




Bastion :



     But that's the whole point of this thread, Bastion...  It's a re-evaluation of a deck archetype based on new cards put out since it was last "viable" in an attempt to see if it can hang.  As Bebe pointed out in the thread-opener, the deck has a lot of potential maindeck hate for the current environment, and the sideboard can encompass further matchup breakers.

     The point isn't necessarily to say, "Hey, look, White Weenie is the best deck to play now," but to say, "Can we bring the archetype back and give it an actual shot to place?"

Wow...    Just spent a half an hour typing a reply, only to have it lost in log in/ log out...  I'll try again...





     Question for Bebe (and others that agree with him) on one or both of the following :



     Pro-color Creatures - I am absolutely in agreement with you guys on Savannah Lions being a waste due to being a "vanilla drop," but I can't agree on pro-critters...  With red's comeback (various Goblin builds, burn, including Fire/Ice and Slice and Dice), how can having pro-red critters be seen as a waste of a slot?  

     Empyrial Armor / Plate - You say this is a waste in today's game.....WHY?  A turn 3 Armor or equippage means a turn 5 kill, which, according to most of the threads I've read thus far is about the staple for Type I these days...Use it on a Soltari, and the only way they can stop you is to get rid of the Plate / Armor or to bounce / StoP it.

     Land Tax - Wow...  There's nothing I hate worse than drawing land past the first couple of turns.  This 1-drop thins your deck out fast, provides you with Hymn-bait vs. Sui, Super-sizes your Empyrial,  limits the effectiveness of Strip Mines and Sinkholes against you, and helps to make sure you don't get color-hosed for blue.  How can it be a poor choice?



     On other matters / theories :

     Icatian Javelineers - I love you guys...  I bought WAY too much Fallen Empires when it came out, and it's about time I get some use out of those dusty cards.  Goodbye, Goblin Welder, Goblin Lackey, etc....


     Samurai of the Pale Curtain - Thank you Wizards of the Coast for the Samurai !!!  I hate Dragon decks (view them as today's Channel-ball, only cheesier), and this card annihilates them, not to mention hosing Welder-based decks, and eliminating Yawgmoth's Wins...


     Abolish vs. Seal of Cleansing vs. Disenchant vs. Aura of Silence - Difficult decisions, probably based entirely on respective metagames...  
 - I have difficulty seeing running Abolishes without Land Tax (but have never tried).  Have you ever regretted the additional 1 CC to Abolish, or are you virtually always assured a Plains in hand?
 - I've been a proponent of Disenchant over Seal for quite some time, but realize that a Seal on the table can scare the heck out of some decks.
 - Aura...  With WW's lack of mana acceleration, do you find that you're able to cast this soon enough to make a difference?



     no Null Rod - Wow...  I realize that this deck's draw/play engine is Standstill / Vial, but don't Triskelion, Powder Keg, Masticore, and Mindslaver wreck this deck without the Rod?  Is it even possible to maindeck + side in enough artifact hate to make up for the loss of Null Rod?



     True Believer - Tired of Duress?  Tired of Diabolic Edict?  Tired of Mindslaver?  Tired of Tendrils of Agony?  Tired of Dragon effects?  I've loved this card ever since Onslaught first came out, and grabbed as many as I could get my greedy little hands on.  This is one of the cards that makes WW actually playable, and I can't imagine not having it in the build.


     Preacher - I fully recognize that the Preacher is fun to play with, but not being able to use him until 4th turn, his 3CC, and his vulnerability (1/1 without protection) make me leave him completely out of this deck.  By my 4th turn, i want to be laying the beat down with this deck, not waiting to see if my opponent actually has creatures...



     Kami of Ancient Law vs. Devout Witness vs. Whipcorder vs. a "new" idea? - The fact that Kami is a 2/2 with a 2CC is nice, as is its ability, but I wish it included artifact removal.  On the other side of the debate is the Witness, who can handle both artifacts and enchantments (repeatedly), but, due to its 3CC and it's activation cost, can't be reliably hoped for until 4th turn (quite possibly too late - almost assuredly so against Welder decks).  

     Others have brought up the Whipcorder, at least as an answer to fatties.  If you're more worried about creatures (including artifact creatures) as opposed to noncreature artifacts and enchantments, I'd suggest a different alternative from all of the above three choices...

     Has anybody considered / tried Avenger en-Dal?  He's from the Nemesis set, is a 1/1 for 1W, and his spellshaper ability is "T, 2W, discard a card from your hand : Remove target attacking creature from the game.  That creature's controller gains life equal to that creature's toughness."  I'd much rather StoP a creature (Avenger) than tap him (Whipcorder).



     Exalted Angel - I never gave serious consideration to including her in a WW build, for two reasons...

1)  Her CC is a bit higher than the norm for WW (3, then 4), and I'd rather play a turn three Empyrial Armor and swing for 8 or 9 than to cast a morphed creature (that everybody knows is the Exalted).
2)  She's a bit fragile compared to the other fatties in today's game (Akroma, Colossus, etc.).

     That said, I'm giving her a whirl...



     Orim's Chant - Is it just me, or is this card basically worthless in this type of deck without my next card to back it up...?


     Isochron Scepter - In a deck that is so worried about combo and/or enchantments/artifacts...  in a deck that doesn't run Null Rod...  in a deck that has so many potential low casting cost instants to abuse...  Why not?  You've got disenchant, you've got StoP, you've got Orim's Chant...  It's a low-CC virtually instant threat to any deck it comes across...  Why not (seriously...anybody test these that absolutely hated them)?



     Weathered Wayfarer - In the immortal words of Chet from Weird Science...  "GACK !!!   PHLBT!!!"

       What a total waste of a 1CC slot!!!   This card is JANK compared to Land Tax.  You get ONE land card as opposed to THREE with Tax, you have to spend mana (and tap the creature) to activate it, and it suffers the same "you have to have fewer lands than your opponent" requirement as Tax.  Sure, you can drop it to the Vial, but by the time you can use it (3rd turn if dropped via Vial), I'd rather be swinging away with an Armored / Plated fatty and thinning my deck out three times as fast.  Wayfarer is an exceptionally weak Man Tax.



     Chalice of the Void - Again...WOW.  I'd NEVER have thought to include Chalice in a WW build, for a couple of reasons...  

1)  White is typically the slowest color in Magic, and Chalice's double-CC seems completely out-of-place in a budget deck without SoLoMoxen/Crypt...
2)  It seems to me that you'd hose yourself, since most of your spells are 1CC and 2CC (yes, I know...AEther Vial).    What would you set it at?  There's no way you could get enough mana to attempt to stop Tendrils or Slaver, and Welder has alternate methods of "casting" things, too...

     Have you guys seriously liked this card in your builds?



     Karakas vs. Maze of Ith - Karakas has the added bonus of bouncing the creature, while Maze doesn't suffer from the Legendary rule.  If you were sure you'd be facing a lot of aggro (Oath/Stax), it might be worth it to at least have these in your board.  I have a hard time accepting not putting 5 in, due to most decks playing with 5 Strip effects.  There's not much sense including something (say, Karakas) if your opponent has that choice outgunned 5 to 1.



     Gilded Drake - Hmmm...  I suppose I can see it...marginally.  My favorite pasttime is NOT handing my opponents a 3/3 flying beatstick, though.  Sure, you can steal a Platinum Angel, but it'll almost assuredly be returned to the Stax player using the Welder...     I can see Akroma...a Colossus...   I guess it's a metagame choice, really...but when most of my creatures don't have flying...



     Any comments?  Thoughts on the Avenger?  Please let me know, as I've been wanting to guide WW back into Type I (still can't get used to calling it Vintage) for some time now...

     Okay, but Jester's Cap is not a "kill," and it's a 1-shot (yes, I know you can recur it with Welder), as opposed to Belcher, which actually ends the game, rather than allowing your opponent the possibility to come back (depending, of course, on their deck selection).  You've spent your initial resources to pull off a Cap, but the game is still on.

     Further, what do you do when you're paired off initially at a tournament with a deck that doesn't use 1-ofs as its kill (Fish, 5/3, or even a janky rogue deck)?  The Cap, which you've used all your initial resources to pull off, is essentially useless.  Certainly you can employ your transformational SB for the next game (or two), but your margin for error has just become nil.




     IF you're facing a standard net-deck and can gobble their 1-of win conditions, you still have to finish them off, so, yes, the kill will still take longer.  There's no doubt that, should they choose to continue to play it out, you can eventually resolve a threat (Colossus) or deck them with the Cap, but again, you're talking a much longer game, which means your "new tech" will be scouted and planned for by subsequent opponents.




     Yet, again, you're now talking about being behind by a game in a best-of-three situation - certainly not an admirable position.

     I don't understand why you would replace a kill card with a non-kill card and claim that it's a viable alternative.  For all intents and purposes, you've simply weakened the Belcher deck.

     That said, it's nice to see people experimenting, and not simply rolling over to current powers.





     Meaning...?  IF you're insulting people that disagree with your build by dogging the newbie forum, I've got to say that's about pathetic.  If you dislike being disagreed with by "newbs," think how much more unhappy you'd be if one of the Vintage Adepts summarily dismissed your ideas, with all the weight of experience behind them...

     Limbo : Thank you for the link, but I'd already read that particular article (I actually have the article both printed out and bookmarked) - along with the majority of the articles found in that thread, prior to posting my questions.  The Art of The Mulligan does a fine job of giving a general outline for mulligan strategy, but, aside from U/G Madness, no specifics for Tier 1 decks, which was more along the lines of what I was after.






     BigMac :  I absolutely agree, and that's one of the most frustrating aspects for me (other than making blatantly obvious play mistakes that only retarded chimps could rival).  Playtesting is constantly underway, and now I'm actually taking notes and saving them...  I've got a feeling it's going to take a lot of work than we thought simply to get those decks "down" in order to give an accurate representation when we test our own, and I'm a bit disgusted with myself for allowing myself to slip a little into the "the top decks should be easy to play just because they have Power 9 and are great" mode...






Necrologia :  Thank you for the specifics.  They've been written down on the respective notes for each deck.  Any advice for a Game One mulligan against an unknown deck?  I would assume the lock for STAX, since that's what it was built on?


     Thank you for your help, guys.  It's much appreciated.

I've begun putting together a series of proxy decks entailing a host of current and near-current tournament decks for the purposes of playtesting with some friends before large tournaments.  We know how to play each others' decks, and our own, but none of us has more than one piece of Power to our name, so we don't often see many of the Tier 1 decks.

     I've played with a few decks ( notably TnT/$TAKS/MUD variants, GRO variants, FCG, Parfait, Oath, Long ), but they don't seem to "roll" as well as we've all seen them do in past tournaments.  I've read as many of the articles and forums here as possible on these decks, and am fairly well-versed on game play decisions, but the one that I think keeps biting me in the arse is when (and how aggressively) to mulligan...

     So, my questions, to those of you that have a lot more experience with these decks (and any others I've neglected) than I, is this :


How aggressively do you mulligan?  

Are there certain cards (or combinations thereof) that you almost never will willingly start a game without?

     Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I am convinced that the mulligan is one of the most overlooked aspects of the game, especially in my circle...