How do you stop Tormod's Crypt, Planar Void, Leyline, Withered Wretch, etc? Pre-board you have no answers and in your sideboard all you have is 4xChalice and the 2x{Tap} hit only 1 of 3 options.

IMO this card fits well at the 2 mana cost counters slot. I think the new "order of playbility" will be Mana Drain>Delay>Remand>Rune Snag>Mana Leak. A simple glance at the facts proves that if you want a counter at 2, this is better than Drain if you can't afford UU in your deck. (Much like mana leak used to be) Since Remand seems to be the next closest I'm going to examine similarities and differences.

Similarities:
1. Both counter a spell.
2. Both are soft counters.
3. Both delay the spell from being played.
4. Both can protect Tendrils. (Delay Tendrils then 3 turns later with suspend on the stack play whatever spells you can)

Delay>Remand:
1. It gives you 3 turns instead of 1. (At best)
2. Is a hard counter against certain spells. (Counters, conditional cards, etc.)
3. Allows you to get a total of 2-3 cards before suspend wears off. (Remand is 1-2)

Remand>Delay:
1. Cantrips instantly.
2. Makes them pay mana for the spell that comes back.
3. Good at making storm.

I play control decks, so of course I am inclined to say Delay is better because in the decks I play the advantages of Delay are better than the advantages of Remand. However, a combo player (like kobefan) seems to be inclined that Remand is better. Both cards are great, but we can all agree that there are enough counters (FoW/MisD/Daze/Drain/Duress/REBs) to keep Remand/Delay/Snag out of most decks.

As to this vs. Mana Leak, the only deck that would take Leak/Snag>Delay is Fish, because in those 3 turns you get there is rarely the opportunity to blow out and win. (Since we are assuming the Fish player kept 1U open for a few turns)

In the end this issue won't be settled. The card will be played by some, dismissed by others. Just like the Gifts vs. Intuition debate. Both are great cards, neither is clearly better than the other. Both are played. In the end those with Intuition are happy and those with Gifts are happy(er ).

As for the Flashback question, the way suspend is worded I would assume it gets countered, is removed from the game, gets the counters, three turns later it goes on the stack, resolves then goes back to the graveyard because it was still played as a regular spell in this instance. Suspend is like playing a spell normally, except you don't pay the mana cost. Should I be wrong correct me.

Last I checked Brain Freeze can't beat DSC or Gaea's Blessing.

No, but seriously this card looks very strong in Stax. It's not uncommon to be able to come up with 3 mana. (Workshop isn't the ONLY mana source in the deck you know) Not to mention by the time you have that kind of mana you probably have some form of lock going. Crucible/Strip? Take out 5 cards please. Smokestack@2? 3 cards right there. Cap isn't exactly devastating early game, when a lock piece would help out more, and by even the mid game this card will often take at LEAST 3 cards. I really can't believe the deck that runs the most mana sources in Vintage is complaining about a CMC of 3. Not only is this card good by itself, it also has synergy (I hear that's good) with 5 strips, X fetches, 4 smokestack, XBraids, X Cabal Pit/BRing, etc. People were going bonkers over Extirpate in Stacks and this is Extirpate on drugs.

Even I can answer this question. Mana Drain is too slow for the current environment. Sitting back and leaving UU open is just not as powerful as it was even a year ago. Combo and Oath races Drain, Fish ignores the mana boost it provides, Ichorid ignores it completely, Control decks wait for your EoT threat thus ignoring Drain and in general everything either races or ignores Drain. Should this not be enough there is also a plethora of other options that make up for Drain's weaknesses. Duress, REB, Pyro, MisD, Leak, Daze, Therapy, etc. I have cut Drains from my CS list and have never looked back. I almost made at least T8 at a Beta Ancestral tourney but a play error and 2 Combo decks kept me in check .

I do not think that Ichorid and Fish is the direct cause of Mana Drain being dropped. However, the threat of Ichorid & Fish certainly sped up the process of innovation to get Drain replaced. Had those 2 decks stayed to the side it might have taken longer for the evolution, but I tihnk it still would have happened.

This is ridiculous and I can't believe that people are saying Trinisphere did not warrant restriction and it was only because of the "unfun" factor. Trinisphere was a 3 Time Walks AT LEAST. This is assuming you don't follow up with some type of lock piece in the 3 turns you have. Followed up with ANY lock piece it ended games. Tangle Wire, Crucible, any LD effect, Smokestack, Chalice, Orb of Dreams, etc. It was more disgusting than Necropotence, because the mana cost was easier, you didn't have burn a ritual to play it, and it won the game this turn instead of next turn. Even on the draw Trinisphere wasn't as useless as some people made it out to be. It was still better than SoR, and combined with any other lock piece it still had a very powerful effect. I don't care about Trinisphere being "unfun". However, when at its worst the card can still win games, something is wrong. Will can fizzle and requires setting up, Necro passes the turn with no health, any draw-7 gives your opponent a fresh hand, Time Walk is only 1 turn. Trinisphere requires no setting up, doesn't give your opponent a free turn, doesn't refill their hand and is multiple Time Walks. It can't be Misdirected, and will never get drained if the Stax player is competant. Keep in mind this is all assuming your opponent has the ability to get 3 basic lands to play that 1 bounce spell that you probably will lock him out of anyways. There used to be more than a 40% chance to win on turn one in Stax, and that is ridiculous. Don't give me any of that mana crap because Stax already ran almost 30 mana sources, and could easily get it out with Shop, land Vault, land mox ring, land mox mox, ancient tomb mox, tomb vault, tomb ring, city of traitors mox, city vault, city ring, etc. They could even run Rituals, SSG and ESG if they really wanted to. 4Trinisphere increased Shop's turn 1 win percentage by 40%. It is still stupidly broken and not even combo can put up those numbers today.

@Grand Inquisitor

Consultation, frantic search, gush aren't run in any decks even as a 1-of, so the same logic used to unrestrict LoA could be used on those 3. Mind's desire is run in combo exclusively. It is one of the weakest bombs in combo. There are other, more powerful cards that could be run instead. It costs 4 colorless, 2 blue mana for 4 random free cards on average. Memory Jar is the only one on your list that I think is comparable to LoA, and that is only because Shop is unrestricted. (Not saying I want it restricted, calm down everybody.)

Consultation can randomly kill you, Grim Tutor doesn't.
Frantic Search is Bazaar that requires 3 mana-producing lands in play. At that point, LoA would have given you +2CA.
Why is Gush even on that list? Is Tog making a comeback? Is 2 lands for 2 cards better than 1 land for 1 card per turn?
Memory Jar costs 5 mana in any deck. In combo it is used only because of Tinker, you don't need more. In Shop decks it is as powerful as LoA is in control decks, for different reasons of course.
Mind's Desire. It is either amazing or a complete flop. It requires a massive investment and if it is countered or you get bad cards you might as well concede. Most of the time when I see it in my hand I wish it were something else. The fact that it randomly wins games still makes it a good card, but LoA consistantly wins games.

I stand by the fact that I would rather have every card on the list I made unrestricted before Library.The only cards I left out of the list were cards that would make a certain archetype insanely imbalanced.

To any more people that think anything on that list I made is too good I ask you this. Would any of them warp the format as badly as the UNRESTRICTED Gift's Ungiven? Every deck now either runs Gifts, can easily support Gifts in it or is designed to hate Gifts. Compare every card on that list to Gifts and see where you end up.

As for why Library should stay restricted, I completely agree that if we are saying 1 land for 1 card per turn is bad we should seriously evaluate what isn't restricted.

Against Stax it can get you out of mana locks through free card draw.
Against Ichorid you lose anyways.
Against anything with mana drain the game is all about card advantage. LoA, card advantage? Card advantage, LoA? Synonyms.
Against Fish you baited a wasteland for coloured mana, have a Dark Confidant that doesn't make you lose life or you just blow them out of the water. Either that or you lose and a basic Island wouldn't have been any better.

That's about it. The whole meta and LoA is not automatically useless against any of the decks like everyone has jumped to the comclusion of.

As to answers you have wasteland. Duress is not an answer because either you draw to 8 in response, or your next draw step takes you to 7 anyways. In addition to that it is still possible to Scroll->Recall to 7 again.

Bazaar is only good in decks that abuse the discard effect. Gifts doesn't run Bazaar for a reason. Bazaar restriction destroys entire decks, while Library unrestriction benefits the decks that are already tier 1 and winning. The same can be said for Workshop.

As to the control mirror I had Tinker->DSC turn 1 against Gifts with my CS game 2. I had double FoW backup. The Gifts player used my all-in "godly" turn 1 play to his advantage. He duressed me, then cast Ancestral. I FoWed he FoWed and he bounced DSC promptly after. Control is all about card advantage and I will never make that play again. Going for the quick win will always lose to the control hand.

That clearly shows how LoA is still very powerful in all 4 areas you deamed necessary.

As a side note yes I am crazy but that still doesn't make me wrong.

Since everybody seems all hyped up about the B/R list, I'm going to list every card that will be unrestricted before LoA. All those cards are either weaker, or are run in less decks than LoA. I'm sure there are a few other card that i missed with this quick list but that is what i have seen in a quick 1 minute scan of the B/R list that I feel is worse than LoA/run less than LoA. In my opinion debate these cards before you debate the Library.
Black Vise
Channel
Chrome Mox
Crop Rotation
Demonic Consultation  
Dream Halls
Enlightened Tutor
Fact or Fiction
Fastbond
Frantic Search
Grim Monolith
Gush
Memory Jar
Mind Twist
Mind’s Desire
Mox Diamond  
Personal Tutor
Regrowth
Time Spiral
Voltaic Key  
Windfall

Ah finally some support.

That Meddling Mage example is still part of my tempo group. It is still virtual card advantage, though I can see how adding the third dimension of an immediate response can make it seem like something else. Shocking the Meddling Mage, whether it slowed the player down or not, was still an answer to the virtual card advantage that Mage created. If they take an extra turn to drop their fat with Sneak Attack then you have created a very real tempo boost. However, should they destroy your Mage then the tempo boost was negated, along with the virtual card advantage. I do not believe the tempo itself can be virtual, merely the way in which tempo is gained. I also believe that virtual card advantage creates tempo, not the other way around. There are 2 other categories of tempo that I have listed earlier that clearly show how tempo itself is created. Of course the negative of all those categories also result in a loss of tempo, the same in which the positive creates tempo.

As to my rudeness, I feel I was more academic than rude. This is except when I was responding to Machinus. I feel that his intrusion in this thread was unnecesary, unprovoked, rude and was lacking any form of proof or reason. I will not appolagize for my response to him because I am sure he was aware of the response his posts would result in.

On the other hand I can see how some of my earlier posts may have seemed mocking in context, but I was merely trying to provide simple examples to illustrate my point. This includes things such as the 40 savannah lion.dec. Sorry about that Rich.

It is the same as my description of fetchlands and Astral Slide, except the opposite. Alone, the fact that those bombs are there do nothing. I mean if on the first turn of the subgame somebody gets Possessed Portal into play with a way to keep it in play indefinetely then the fact that they are not there doesn't affect anything. However, the fact that they are not there, combined with things such as the draw step and card draw creates a loss in tempo for the player without bombs whenever they draw a card. Once again this goes back to the Ancestral Recall that hits complete jank.

If it is absolutely impossible without even the slightest shred of hope to be useable and there is no way to make it useable and it might as well just be RFGed now then yes it is real card advantage for your opponent because that card does not exist for all intents and purposes. This is because your opponent has given 0 cards to destroy 1 of yours and in that context it is card advantage. However, if there is any way for the mana off that land to be useful then it was merely a tempo boost for your opponent.

I am unclear about what you are asking with Shahrazad. After the subgame all cards in that subgame are shuffled back into their owner's libraries, so I don't know how you get better cards in your library. It is impossible to create card advantage with a card that only does damage to a player. I don't know how casting Shahrazad gives you tempo in a sub-game. The only possible way I can see your point is if you somehow remove a few bad cards from the game. In that case you have thinned your deck and increased the odds of drawing better cards. That is not tempo, nor is it card advantage. It is the same as casting Astral Slide, or using a fetch land. In a vacuum the card does nothing. In combination with other spells and the draw step, they can increase the tempo you would gain from drawing cards in that you would draw more useful cards. This goes back to my example of Ancestral Recall hitting shuffle effect and 2 bad cards. It creates little tempo, but it could have made more should you have waited to shuffle the library.

Yes casting Traumatize does in fact give you tempo. This fits perfectly with my defenition of tempo in that your opponent has to deal with the fact that you removed X cards in their library. As I stated earlier anything that causes tempo has to be answered whether it is negating the effect or just winning. Most players won't care that you removed those cards and will proceed to just win the game. The problem lies in the fact that the tempo boost Traumatize provides is in an area of Magic that most Vintage players don't care about. Of course you could remove their win conditions, and as such the tempo gained from Traumatize was a huge burst, rather than the statistically small one it normally would. Same goes with your example of Ancestral Recall. If your opponent has built a deck to completely mill you by turn 3, suddenly Recall is a bad card because it gives your opponent a tempo boost in the area that matters to him. Tempo can come from any part of a Magic game, the only problem is whether the tempo is relavent or not. In the case of milling in the format of Vintage, no it is most likely not relavent tempo.

As to the late game topdeck of a land that is VCA because you either ignore the fact that you didn't need it, and play it anyway, undo it through cards like Brainstorm or TfK, or just win beside the fact that you drew the land. 1 card for 1 card is never actual card advantage, and I don't know why playing a land becomes card advantage.

I would be glad to show how other cards and scenarios fit into my defenition of card advantage, so keep them comming.

Edit: Machinus

All you have done in this thread is come in saying that what we are doing is wrong and a bad idea and has nothing to do with Magic. My response to your post may not have been clear enough, so I will attempt to make it as clear as possible.

Please tell me of a time, a deck, a metagame, a card, a scenario in which my theory of Tempo and Card advantage is incorrect. Until then please stay out of this thread.

In addition to this if the rules of Storm were changed to: "Pull down your pants and start dancing around." you can't tell me that there isn't a clear sign that they are defining the metagame. A real example is perfect in the errata of Time Vault. They changed the official text of Time Vault into something more contradictory to the rules than before, but this time the combo didn't work. I think that is a clear indication that they didn't want the combo to be a part of the metagame.

What cards disagree with my theory of tempo and card advantage? I would rather hear why my theory is incorrect as opposed to somebody comming into this thread and stating that no theories work and everything is BS. As such there are a few questions I would like answered.


How are my premises incomplete/incorrect?
When did anyone here say that you have to use theories to understand MTG?
The third bold is a contradiction of itself, because how does analyzing the development practices of Wizards when designing MAGIC CARDS have nothing to do with MAGIC CARDS?
I fail to see what your third point has to do with disproving theorization in Magic. I clearly state in my first post an example that Ancestral Recall and Concentrate are the same card in a vacuum, but in practice they function to create tempo, CA, neither or both depending on the situation. How is stating a fact a bad thing?
I repeat my earlier question, when I ask you to name a card that does not function with my theory on tempo and card advantage.

I wanted to touch upon virtual card advantage but i was unable to earlier due to timing issues. VCA is just a way of descibing one of the 3 forms of tempo.

1. Quick boost in resources. (Drain mana, DRit, YawgWill, etc.)
2. Threat application. (Tinker->DSC, FoW on Hill Giant, Bombs in general, etc.)
3. Virtual Card Advantage. (Meddling Mage, Trinisphere, Tangle Wire, etc.)

VCA is a method of gaining that tempo boost in that your opponent has to deal with it, or win the game. VCA can be undone, ignored or played around, which is the main difference to actual card advantage. Take Meddling Mage for example. He can be killed/bounced (undone), you can name the wrong thing (ignored) or they can use alternate ways to win (played around). Once actual card advantage happens, it is done and there is now way to get around the fact that it happened.

Tempo is resolving something that causes your opponent's game plan to slow down more than it affects you. Card advantage is when a resolved spell creates more cards than it cost, whether through destroying/discarding multiple cards, or drawing multiple cards.


Tempo and card advantage are very closely entwined, and more often than not it appears that they are the same thing. For example it can be said that any draw spell creates both tempo and card advantage. However, it can be argued that the way in which those spells are used defines what it truly creates. For example, casting Ancestral Recall, but having to use a FoW to protect it shows that tempo is more relavent than card advantage. Your opponent has been slowed down because you have cost him protection, while potentially gaining protection. In this scenario Ancestral was tempo, more than a card advantage spell. This is because the end result is you have taken 1-2 cards from your opponent's hand, without losing any from your own. You have also gained information and your Recall cost 1 mana where as any counterspell printed either cost a land drop(tempo), +1card(tempo) or 2 mana(+1psuedo mana). What if instead your opponent decided to let it resolve unopposed? Then it is card advantage, and creates little tempo because it does not directly swing turns or turn fractions in your favour.

The point I just made can, of course, be disputed. It can be said that the Recall sped up your game plan by 3 turns, because it would have taken that long to draw those cards. However, assume the top 4 cards are 1 shuffle effect and 3 sub-optimal draws. All of the sudden Recall just lost you tempo in that waiting to draw the shuffle effect would have been the 3 turn tempo that was described earlier. The Recall itself didn't create tempo, the cards that you drew off it did. The point to be made is that Concentrate would have drawn those same three cards. The way in which you use a card defines whether it is card advantage or tempo. Concentrate costs 4 times as much and is a sorcery, but in a vacuum that doesn't matter. Through interactions with other cards it is clear that Ancestral costing 1/4 as much and being an instant allows for the flexibility that makes it a slight tempo card even in the worst situations.

Jackal Pup is not card advantage in the least. 1 Card for 1 permanent is just about the going rate for 0 CA. Assuming that your opponent plays nothing before he dies it is argued that the Pup was card advantage because your opponent played nothing and as such you made his hand useless and as such it was card advantage. However, it is clear that the Pup created such a tempo boost that it won the game. Your opponent could not deal with the 10-turn() clock and as such he created a 10 turn tempo boost. This goes back to my original point of slowing your opponent's game plan enough to win. Your opponent was probably sitting across from you struggling to find an answer. It doesn't matter that his draw step was the only way that he could do it, as the intent was clear that he wanted to get rid of it. In this way the Pup was pure tempo.

Making cards in your opponent's hand dead is, once again, tempo. It is not card advantage as he still has the physical card in his hand. That Stone Rain cut off one of his colours and your opponent has to search for the answer to that. The answer is a land that also produces that colour. You have created tempo because he can't cast his spells, and must dig for an answer to that Stone Rain. Once he gets that land, there is no more "card advantage". This leads to the second difference between tempo and card advantage.

Tempo is temporary, card advantage is permanent. After that Ancestral Recall resolves, those three cards go into your hand. There is no way he can go back and change this. Sure he can play Mind Twist for 9999999, but the point is those cards still went into your hand. Same goes for any destruction or discard effect that resolves. The card will go to the graveyard or be RFG. Nothing will change that fact. Sure he can play Crucible or Will, but the card still went to the graveyard. Tempo on the other hand, can be undone. Tinker->DSC doesn't create tempo if he resolves CoV that was in his hand, or if he wins the game next turn. If you Stone rain one of his colours and he is holding a hand full of lands, I'm sorry but that didn't accomplish much.

I have to go now but I will be back to continue debating what tempo and card advantage are either later, or when somebody argues with me.

Final note: Tempo is resolving something that causes your opponent's game plan to slow down more than it affects you. Card advantage is when a resolved spell creates more cards than it cost, whether through destroying/discarding multiple cards, or drawing multiple cards.

Tempo can be undone, Card Advantage can't.

Edit: I agree that not using your mana to its fullest extent is loss of tempo, but I do not agree that using it to the fullest is gaining tempo. Assuming both players always use their mana to the fullest then every player always gains tempo, and that seems contradictory because neither player has done anything to change this. Assuming 20 Plains 40 "Savannah Lions".dec then both players are using all their mana. It is not until somebody doesn't play a Lion that the other player gains a tempo boost. As such, using all your mana can't be defined as gaining tempo, only not using it is a loss of tempo.

The same is applied to your example. Diabolic Edict for Hill Giant is not tempo, because you have answered his threat, and as such have undone his tempo. Had you done nothing on your turn your opponent would have gained tempo off the Hill Giant, but no card advantage. Should all your threats have costed 5 mana, the Hill Giant didn't stop you from playing them. He created no card advantage because it was 1 spell for 1 permanent. Assuming however, that you also played a black knight along with the edict. There is no card advantage. You didn't gain more than what you gave. The tempo boost was very minor, because what if next turn your opponent drops 3 creatures? He is ahead in card advantage simply because he cast spells? By that logic, once again, we are assuming that casting spells is card advantage, when I just can't see this happening.

The easiest way to disprove this logic is with Ichorid. They cast what, 2 spells a game? Rarely use any mana that is in the oppening hand? By your logic they have no tempo or card advantage because that 1 swamp in the oppening 7 is going to waste. This is all while they are using dredge for card advantage(their graveyard is their hand so they "draw" 10+ cards a turn), and Dread Return for tempo. Dread return is hardly card advantage. It costs 3 creatures in play+1 card in their "hand" for 1 creature. -3CA, but it creates a tempo boost in that the Ghoul needs to be dealt with this turn, or next turn if the Dragon Breath doesn't come up.

Second last point of this edit is about how you view making cards usefull as card advantage. By that logic Grim Long has more card advantage than any other deck in the format. Grim Long rarely wins with spare cards in hand, because that is what the deck is designed to do. Yet, Gifts variants always seem to win with a few spare cards in their hand. Does that mean that Gifts decks are bad at creating card advantage? Does that mean that Ancestral Recall is jank because you probably don't need those 3 extra cards to win, and it makes card disadvantage?

The final point is the comment about Trinisphere. Trinisphere is not card advantage. Trinisphere merely demands an answer. I will assume that you mean something along the lines of shop->trini go because it is one of the most powerfull openings for the card. You have not made their cards in hand disappear. A good player will build up a pile of basic lands and then bounce that Trinisphere. Suddenly those Moxen fly back into their hand? No, it was just that the tempo threat that Trinisphere created demanded an answer. This goes back to my point that Tempo is created by forcing your opponent to find an answer, and card advantage is created by physically gaining more cards in usefull zones than it cost you to put it there.

You ripped everything you could have ever needed off the top good job.

I don't think there is are any deck changes that would allow a win with Tendrils except for one. If those Mana Drains were Dark Rituals instead, you would have had enough to win with Tendrils on the spot. I guess that is why Ritual Gifts is faster.

Congrats on the absolut ballz again.

Please tell me you aren't saying that pyrite spellbomb is bad in Salvagers.

I can see how useful Cap is against Oath, but how does it help the Ichorid or Fish matchup? Ichorid can get most of its threats in the graveyard before Cap is online, and Fish has no outstanding targets. Even Silent Arbiter is a better choice than Cap in the Ichorid and Fish matchups, because it ensures you never get hit as long as he stays in play, which buys time to drop more Lock.

The main problem I see with this deck, is that it gets burned by all the hate aimed at Stax, except you don't run Ubazaar to rip through your deck, Welder to recur what the hate kills, Confidant to draw more threats, Tutors to get the best possible Locks, Barb Rings to kill creatures, Tomb to pay "Energy Flux" etc. etc.

I guess what I'm trying to say is how is this deck better, or at least more metagamed, than any Stax variant? You can't just say "Oh but they're different decks so no need to compare them." That is the same like telling an employer at a job interview that the other guy is better at the job than you are, but you are different so he should hire you. In a similar context you could say that a 2 year old TPS is an OK deck, so people should run it instead of IT, GrimLong, Pitch Long or Ritual Gifts.

I don't mean to play devil's advocate here, but somebody had to ask the question sooner or later. To state once more, how is this deck better, or at least more metagamed, than any possible Stax variant? Why is putting all your eggs in the artifact basket better than adding even a splash of colour for bombs/utility?

My original 1-page post was lost in a computer error just 20 minutes ago, so I'll sum it up. I don't need Extirpate in my deck to abuse it. Any good player will have heard of the card, and will think I am holding B up for Extirpate. The printing of this card makes a Basic Swamp into Time Walks. Should I be running Extirpate, I will not be running 56 Swamps and 4 Extirpate. I can run anywhere from Trinisphere, SoR and Tangle Wire, to FoW, MisD and Drain, to Duress, Therapy and Unmask.


You said it yourself TWO TURNS for leaving a Swamp untapped. That comes out to BB for 2 Time Walks, as long as I have 1 card in hand. I will not use those 2 turns to sit back and let you set yourself up perfectly. I will drop more disruption. Meanwhile you are ripping your own hand apart with bazaar. Let me explain something. Every Bazaar activation is -1CA. If thats not enough every WGD you draw is another -1CA until one of us wins. Which means that every turn you lose a card from bazaar, then you play a land. Assuming you don't hit a WGD that is -1CA every turn. If you stop using bazaar, then you can't dig. If you stop playing lands, you are Strip Mining yourself, and if you discard WGD Extirpate and you lose. You will not draw 1 Deep Anal every 2 turns to offset bazaar every single game.

Extirpate is not a useless card, and it will kill every WGD player that has not adapted to face it. You can't assume that you opponent will drop a swamp and just sit there all game discarding cards and waiting for the Dragon. Strip Mine is not a bomb in Dragon, or else Dragon would be running 5 of them. If you can't play through 1 Strip Mine then your deck is horrible and you should go play T2. Dragon has to adapt, and will adapt. It will not just sit back and pray the opponent is playing 56 Swamps and 4 Extirpate.

For the record I do not think Extirpate is the best answer to Dragon, but it is certainly a very powerful one. I would rather kill the Dragon and remove all their permanents as it leaves them with no way to rebound, as opposed to removing WGD from the deck. I will probably run a few in my deck as it is worth bringing in as the "Lightning Bolt" of my sideboard because it slows down a lot of decks. If you underestimate Extirpate, you will lose its that simple.

In addition to this Extirpate has 2 answers, Duress and Xantid Swarm. Every other hate against Dragon has about 8 ways to counter it. Duress can be countered/Duressed. Xantid Swarm can be killed, bounced, countered, etc. Have fun losing to Extirpate.

Time Walk
1U
Sorcery
Take an extra turn after this one.

ANY LAND THAT PRODUCES BLACK
Land
As long as this is untapped target WGD player doesn't combo off.

I'm sorry but your logic of leaving 1 mana open zeus, is like saying a MDG player that leaves Drain mana up sucks because he isn't using his mana. If sitting back and waiting for Duress is the best option you can think of, good luck. You have officially made basic swamp as broken as Time Walk. There will very rarely be a time when an opponent will completely stop casting spells because he needs to leave one B mana open. I would gladly pay an upkeep cost of B to stop a WGD player from comboing off. I mean you don't even need to run Extirpate in your deck.

At this point people will adapt to Extirpate whether it is run in decks or not. For example, you sit across from an opponent and he leads with Island, Mox Sapphire. Immediately you start playing around the Drain, because it's calling card is UU. Next turn he combos off and you see a Grim Tutor. No Drains, just a threat. Let's say instead your opponent leads with a Fetchland, or a USea, or a Swamp. Playing WGD you can't take the chance of dropping Dragon in the yard, so you play around Extirpate. (Sound familiar?) Whether Extirpate was in the deck or not, you still were forced to play around it, just like the UU in example 1.


Any deck that can't drop more disruption or a kill condition while a WGD player sits back waiting for Duress deserves to lose.

Edit: Sorry if I seem rude but I find it mind-boggling that you would say turning Swamp into Time walk is bad.

I noticed that a lot of these lists posted here don't run True Believer. Was the WW cost too inconsistant in testing? To me it seems like Meddling Mage 5-8 is some good. Shutting down Gifts, Intuition and Tendrils all at once while Mage cuts down Tinker and their removal/bounce looks powerful enough to fetch out your Tundras instead of Islands, or even running Plains.


I agree 100% and I generally laugh at decks that run "Savannah Lions". If 2/x was a good clock Stompy would dominate the format to no end. Turn 1 should be disruption or draw. Turn 2 a clock/disruption followed by turn 3 clock/disruption/draw. "Isamaru Go" is a good way to have a Gifts resolve on turn 2 in your face.


I run black AND Null Rod. I stomped the mirror badly in a tournament for a Mox. The game you won with 3 "Savannah Lions" your opponent either kept a slow hand, a bad hand or was mana screwed. I refuse to believe that 3 2/X can race an 11/11 trample, Tendrils or EtW.

Edit: You don't need to run bad cards just for the sake of curving. I use all 6 mana almost every game in play barring some form of mana screw. I will admit that the Stax matchup is a problem, but nobody in my meta is running Stax at the moment so screw it.

Isn't it obvious? Evenpence wants people to pick up this deck so he can stomp it with Stax. Basic land problem, loses to Chalice@2 and no artifact bounce.

No, but seriously the deck does seem to completely fold to Stax, where as other Intuition decks have a favourable Stax matchup. (IT for example) Through my testing I have often found that Intuition is better at enabling combo, while Gifts is better at setting up a controlling situation. Intuition costs 1 less mana and can make piles like 3xRituals or 3xBounce spells. Gifts will never be able to do that because it is not supposed to do that. Gifts can grab piles like FoW, Drain, REB, Pyro, or Gifts, Scroll, FoF, Thirst. Intuition can never do that because it will always end up being 1 for 1. Intuition is a Grim Tutor thats sets up AK or Will, while Gifts is 1 for 2+more if you fetch draw spells.

Mana seems to be the main point of Intuition>Gifts, but it really is trivial.
Intuition/AK:2U+1U=3UU=5 mana=2 cards
Intuition/AK:2U+1U+1U+1U=5UUUU=9 mana=5 cards (This assumes Merchant Scroll->AK)
Gifts/Thirst:3U+2U+1U+U=6UUUU=10 mana=4 cards (Assured ME off Gifts)
Gifts/FoF:3U+3U+1U+U=7UUUU=11 mana=5 cards or 3-4 BROKEN cards (Assured ME off Gifts)
Gifts/Gifts:3U+3U+1U+U=7UUUU=11 mana=4 cards+the Gifts chain continues (Assured ME off Gifts)

Both are instant speed not counting the Scroll. Both "draw" at least 4 cards. Intuition is left with only Ancestral Recall, while Gifts still has other Gifts/Thirsts. This is just for card advantage. Gifts can fetch 2 counterspells where Intuition gets 1. When the 2 decks go for the Will pile, Gifts has more mana. Will, Recoup, Lotus is not the same as Will, Recoup, Lotus, Ritual/Crypt/Vault.

This is exactly why Intuition has to play catch-up against Gifts. Intuition is broken not because it is similar to Gifts. Intuition is broken because it is an instant speed Grim Tutor that fills up the graveyard for Will.

Great to see Gro being rebuilt. I remember that it was the first Vintage deck I wanted to build. (Ah the memories.) Anyways the biggest problem that I have seen come up with Gro decks is the actual Tog. For 2U instead of 1UB you can Tinker for an 11/11 instead of casting a Tog. Smiley ends up eating your hand, which leaves you with no protection and removing your GY which leaves no back-up Will. Do you find the Tog that good/necessary? Your list runs 2 Togs how often do you Tutor for them? Would getting Tinker have been an equally good choice? It seems to me that the Togs could be cut for some more protection or tutors. In your first post you said that the lack of artifacts was what made you question Tinker. Now that you have Moxen isn't it stronger? Cutting Tog would make room for Scrolls/Seal/Pithing Needle/Will etc. If your friend has an Imperial Seal I would cut the Togs for 1xImperial Seal and 1xYawgmoth's Will. Dryad and Colossus seem quite capable of taking out 20 life without the loss of your hand and graveyard. If you DO stick with Tog try to find Berserks. They can boost your Tog while letting you keep some protection in your hand. Should you stick to Tog in your Sideboard I would suggest packing a few Pithing Needles since Tormod's Crypt really messes up the plan.

How good has Daze been for you? You already pack in 6 Pitch Counters, do you need more "free" counters? I would suggest cutting 4xDaze for 3xMana Leak/1xMisdirection.

Anyways I hope my post has given you something to think about, and thanks again for the memories.

OH before I forget there is also a new card called Trickbind. It is a Stifle that can't be responded to and it only costs 1 more colorless mana. The mana cost shouldn't be a problem if you're packing Moxen so check it out.

Forgot about Planar Void until some time last night when I couldn't get to a computer, and I agree completely with the diagram. Only a few more problems with Planar Void.

1. Can't remove cards already in the graveyard.
2. Not as bounce-proof as Crypt because it can't be sacrificed in response, or deal with point #1. This can lead to bounce followed by dumping their bombs and waiting for Will.
3. Anything past the first one is pointless, because there is almost no enchantment destruction and Echoing Truth (the bounce of choice for control decks at the moment) still hits both.

However, the fact that Tormod's is an artifact is a pro and a con depending on the deck. Also by point #8. I meant that you could replay Crypt out of the graveyard with Will. It is highly unlikely that Planar Void will hit the graveyard due to a lack of enchantment hate so it really only shares points #3,#6 and #2 (situationaly).

How is 4xLeyline more effective than 4xTormod's Crypt? The only deck that Leyline is better than Tormod's is in Manaless Ichorid. Any Stax can use Welder to recurr Tormod's Crypt for the same effect as Leyline, without being worried about having it bounced or a dead draw. (Tormod's can't be bounced in an ideal situation, because in response you either RFG or you replay it on your own turn. ) Stax can also discard Tormod's to Bazaar to use with welder, instead of throwing it into the graveyard with no further purposes. Tormod is never a dead draw because multiples help greatly with Trickbind being played more and more.

Leyline is a poor lock piece in Stax, however it looks very solid in Manaless Ichorid. 40% chance that you will greatly hinder your opponent does not look bad. This is not to mention that you can mull into it if necessary, since the deck is made to mulligan. The other "60%" of the time you will dredge it into the graveyard where it would be no more useless than any other piece of disruption you would run in that slot. Even then you have to deal with Echoing Truth, Rushing River, Chain of Vapor, etc. However, the fact that every piece of countermagic would be aimed at Tormod's (Since it is the only spell you cast.) makes Leyline better. Not to mention they will probably be tutoring for their own Tormod's instead of bounce.

Short Version^tm

In my opinion any deck that could make room for 4xLeyline might as well run 4xTormod's Crypt instead.
PRO
1. Tinker
2. Bounce-proof
3. Casteable
4. Almost never a dead draw
5. Goblin Welder
6. Tutorable
7. Thirst for Knowledge
8. Good with a non-lethal/card advantage Yawgmoth's Will
CON
1. Null Rod, Pithing Needle, Trickbind (All do the same thing)
2. MAY need 2 to stop them (Rarely if you use Tormod's properly)

Leyline>Tormod's in Ichorid, Tormod's>Leyline in every other deck.

In my opinion "stalling" qualifies as not changing the game state with intent to result in a draw. Players are given 3 minutes per turn because it is intended that they will think for a duration, cast a spell and use that time to think between spells being cast. If I am sitting across from an opponent that does not change the game state noticably within 25 seconds I will give a friendly reminder about stalling. At 40 seconds I am willing to get a judge involved.

Things that change game state noticably:

1. Using a non-mana activated ability that directly changes the state of the game in comparison of when it was announced, and when it resolves.
2. Casting a spell that can legally be cast.
3. Deciding on how to stack triggered abilities. Order should be decided all at once.
4. Playing a land that can legally be played.

This general rule of thumb prevents abuse of the 3 minute per turn rule. The judge only needs to get involved once before the other player picks up the pace usually. Should they not speed up the judge is allowed to use discretion in the situation, and obviously what they say goes.

As for the mulliganing problem, the solution is simple. No deck in the format requires more than 5 minutes in total when it comes to mulliganing. 30 second shuffling, 1 minute to decide whether to mulligan or not. Once a deck goes below 4 cards they were either specifically looking for a card, and as such their other mulligans should have been quicker, or they are in a state of hopelessness. The DCI was a bit loose when it came to time restrictions, but that is because they hoped Vintage players would have the integrity to play the game, not the clock.

Your entry fee was what you paid to have fun, not to be jerked around by a time jockey. Call the judge over and over again if necessary until one of you two get a warning. It's sad that this is actually an issue, and it is very good that this thread was created because now maybe the rules will be tweaked to make "stalling" clearer.

Side note: If you get fed up with stallers, just play a version of Long.dec and beat them before stalling becomes an issue. :lol:

My CS list runs better answers for small wars than repeal. Later I will list every playable card that wins small wars wnd we can decide which is better.

Oath brings in Simic Sky Swallower. You bring in targeting removal.

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Just run ways to stop oath, because you will never stop their creatures in UG. As to which deck to play. KITT dies to chalice@1, but WTF doesn't run answers to anything in your meta. Take the combo deck because WTF is better played in a meta with no combo and little oath. It does have a decent game against Gifts and oath pre-board isn't terrible. Take the combo deck.

I don't see how CS can run Repeal. My list is tighter than pants at an art show. CS is basically 4 slots of innovation, so why would you run a cantripping Echoing Truth? It doesn't answer the biggest threats in Vintage. In Gifts I can see Repeal as great utility for the storm win. It's just not that good in CS. Oh, and against oath I would rather just destroy thier oath or use cheaper bounce that can also target their fatties.

Um...No. First off Leyline is complete garbage. Any self-respecting GrimLong player will just bounce/playthrough/TPS you out of the game. I don't know why in the name of God you would EVER play Leyline in Slaver. Stifle, Duress, TCrypt, Chalice, Slaver, Drain, FoW, Mana Leak, Disrupt, Force Spike, Extract, Cranial Extraction, etc. are ALL better answers to combo than Leyline in a CS deck. Thats right, I would rather run Force Spike than Leyline because at least Force Spike can't be bounced, isn't expected and can stop anything I want it to not just Will. As to Shadow of Doubt. If you have 2 U/B MANA, WHY WOULD YOU RUN AN ANSWER TO A TUTOR? Mana leak can be played off any color +U and does more than Shadow of Doubt. BEST case scenario you are running a few more Time Walks. That is assuming the Grim player runs no draw-7s...or draw spells in general. Oh, and is an idiot. The Grim player also has to be an idiot.


@Purple Hat: Blood moon better be a joke. For the love of God it had better be a joke. You cut yourself out of black mana, stop your OWN FETCHES, and in turn screw yourself over. Your entire mana base is now mountains and a few Islands. By a few, I mean 3-4. All that for the low, low price of 3 mana. What do you get in return if you actually live to 3 mana.(Good Luck Buddy) You have a 1 and a half-hour long match against Grim Long thus drawing the game. Hurray. I'm gonna pack 6 of them in my Sideboard next time.

It only took this long to get a warning because I didn't notice this post before.  Warning issued.  There's a preview button so you can wash your posts clean of Tourette's before you click the post button, so use it.
-Kowal[/color]

I play CS and Gifts. You don't play Null Rod or Chalice. I pray to God your deck becomes a huge and popular netdeck so I can get byes against you. I also can't see how you have any game against stax. You run 2 basics and no artifact hate. Post-board you bring in single-target hate such as Annul and Seal of Cleansing (I would assume). That wont help if they start dumping 2 artifact lock pieces a turn. The Grunt is a joke against any good players. I mean, you can't drop that guy on turn 1 or 2 because he dies after 1 swing. The only way I can see this guy being played is late game where it is either win more because you stopped me already or lose more because he isn't disruption to my deck. If you cast that guy on your turn I will either play Will on my turn or play conservatively. He doesn't stop an EoT Gifts.

I will now proceed to list your Maindeck removal. Swords to Plowshares. 3cc bounce that isn't Rebuild. Thats it. Once again, against a good player its just not good enough.

Now we reach your 14 card sideboard with 2 open slots. Unless your entire metagame is Oath and unpowered Stax then I don't think that the sideboard is any good. There are better disruption slots than Sacred Ground in a UBW deck.

Now to wrap up this comment I have 2 things left to say to you.

1. This deck is not "amazing" against CS. The people in your area must be pretty bad to lose to this. I don't need to answer each of your threats individually. Pyroclasm or any one of the cards with a sweeping effect owns you. What is your answer? The Grunt is your only answer to Darkblast, and only stupid players will allow you to remove their darkblast with that thing. Decks like these make me love running Pentavus because it says YOU LOSE in big bold letters like the ones I used. You won't be able to get more than one StP per game and there are so many things you need to remove against CS. I WILL draw a Welder/Big Machine before you get Darkblast/StP. I DO have a proactive draw-engine that allows me to draw cards NOW. I HAVE tutors to get what I need to own you. I RUN more control than you. YOU have no answers to my insane acceleration. What am I? Control Slaver.

2. I may have a biased view because MBDI WUmBo Fish runs better hate, more beats and more answers. Don't take these comments the wrong way but you made a lot of strong statements and backed it up with "In my games against those matchups (even though my opponents werent that good) i had  pretty good games."

You have made a deck that beats bad players, which is fine. But GrimLong completely owns bad players, can beat even the best players AND gives you time to go get lunch.

Actually he has 2xVolcanic, 1xCoB, 6xFetches, Mox Ruby, Lotus and 14 ways of digging/tutoring for red mana. I do not agree with running Niv-Mizzet however. He is a win-more card. If you can draw 18 cards AFTER dropping Niv, (Since you said you draw with him rather than attack for 4. We are also assuming 2 fetches in a game of Control vs. Control.) then you have won. You might as well just tinker for DSC or go for the tendrils kill. He is just a more complicated method of winning. All this seems like is Gifts with life loss black card-drawing instead of Gifts, Niv instead of Burning Wish and a different array of answers. Don't take this the wrong way. This deck is extremely cool and I love the ability of Niv-Mizzet. The difference is you're willing to pay 2UURR, where I would rather pay 3U at instant speed and have a few Time-Walks built in because I win in 1-2 turns where as you win in 6-7turns.


[Edit] Oh, and to your note on the slaver match-up. I don't see how you can say you have a draw-engine that "easily mathces theirs". Your draw-engine is either a SORCERY speed 2/2 -2 life or a SORCERY speed BX/X -X life -X cards for Yawgmoths Will. Slaver has 3/2 +dumping cards for Welder (Notice it isn't - something?) at INSTANT speed plus most lists run 1xGifts. (Which my list does) You are comparing Night's Whisper to Thirst (Which is ridiculous) and Skeletal Scrying to Gifts+TfK (Which is even MORE ridiculous.) Slaver owns your draw-engine and no, I don't NEED welder to smash your face in. I just need to drain Niv-Mizzet.