[Single Card Discussion] Bitter Ordeal

[wethepeople]

This card has recently been spoiled on MTG Salvation, and will apparently be released in the upcoming set- Future Sight.

Bitter Ordeal   
Casting Cost:
Sorcery

Search target player's library for a card and remove that card from the game.Then that player shuffles his or her library.

Gravestorm (When you play this spell, copy it for each permanent put into a graveyard from play this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)

This also has been discussed on SCG, but originally proposed to be run in Stax. I myself don't think that a card like this would be strong at all in such a deck, but I'd imagine that it could be a strong-selection elsewhere.

When teamed with fetchlands, Petals, et cetera, Gravestorm allows you to target multiple cards in your opponent's library, which can lead to serious problems in several Vintage decks.

Discuss.

[Roxas]

It says "permanent," not "card," so it wouldn't really work with Rituals.

I don't read the SCG boards, but I do agree with the idea that this is probably best in Stax. It's not unreasonable for Stax to sacrifice a permanent to Smokestack, kill something with Wasteland, and then play this for a potentially crushing number of copies. It seems like it might still be too conditional to really be useful, but it wouldn't surprise me too much if this saw a little play (especially in the Stax lists already running plentiful black mana and/or Urborg for Confidants and such).

[Khahan]

I would definitely have to playtest this in my welder deck. I have 1 utility slot that I'm constantly tinkering with and would be very curious to see how this works out. Welder has multiple ways to make good use of this card.

[jcb193]

I like the thinking, but it seems like a card that would be much more conditional than Jester's Cap for a similar effect (are you going to Gravestorm for more than 3?).  Jester's Cap- colorless, welderable, workshopable, etc.

This takes colored mana, and while it could be explosive (if you ramp up your gravestorm), it also seems like one of those cards that could really punish you for trying to be too cute (saccing permanents non-ideally to ramp up storm).

Good thought.  Just can't see why it would be an improvement unless you are running Rituals, because otherwise, Jester's and this are probably 2nd-3rd turn hits. 

[magus888]

I think Bitter Ordeal would be a great card for UWb Bomberman! Not only is it a good control card, but a win condition.

[Khahan]

I like the thinking, but it seems like a card that would be much more conditional than Jester's Cap for a similar effect (are you going to Gravestorm for more than 3?).  Jester's Cap- colorless, welderable, workshopable, etc.

This takes colored mana, and while it could be explosive (if you ramp up your gravestorm), it also seems like one of those cards that could really punish you for trying to be too cute (saccing permanents non-ideally to ramp up storm).

Good thought.  Just can't see why it would be an improvement unless you are running Rituals, because otherwise, Jester's and this are probably 2nd-3rd turn hits. 

That's why I said I would 'playtest' it in welder. It doesn't jump out at me as an auto-include, but it certainly does seem like it would have value.  Consider this: sac lotus (1), weld an artifact out for lotus (2), sac lotus (3), play graveystorm: 4 cards removed. Not that uncommon and against tps or gifts that can often be all it takes. Then again, there will be the games where you get this in  your hand and despite your best efforts just find nothing to get into the GY.

[zeus-online]

I can't see this replacing Extract or jester's any time soon, is more then  ....
and is easier to get then  in workshop decks, hence Bitter ordeal is inferior.

/Zeus

[Bill Copes]

I would play this in my shop deck.  I'd be running caps if I didn't have 3-null rod in the maindeck, and I tried Hide // Seek and had pretty pitiful results with it.  This fills the niche for those of us (few) that play black-based shop decks.

[runeblayde]

I also play black stax and look forward to testing this card out as a sideboard option, I like that it seems to be inclusive of all GYs and not just your own, letting strip effects count as double for the gravestorm trigger.  Forgive me for not being an experienced player of the deck if this is a horrid idea, but one thing that came to mind was using it as an alternative finisher in Dragon, besides witness grabbing cunning wish for stroke, the possibility of grabbing this as an alternative method of decking the opponent without having to worry about force, etc.

[A.-1.]

I can't see Bitter Ordeal replacing any of the win conditions in Dragon. It is essentially Ambassador Laquatus but it does not pitch to Force of Will. If you maindecked Bitter Ordeal, since only Burning/Death Wish could find it, it is almost entirely dead by itself unlike Eternal Witness and Kumano/Hellkite. This is just my opinion though runeblayde. Please feel free to playtest a Dragon build with Bitter Ordeal. I am all for the advancement of Dragon 

[wethepeople]

I think Bitter Ordeal would be a great card for UWb Bomberman! Not only is it a good control card, but a win condition.

That's a cool idea, but I can't see why it could possibly be a better selection than Brain Freeze. Freeze pitches to FOW, and is much easier to cast because it doesn't require you to fetch for a dual, and costs less.

The reason I like it because it is more difficult to counter (when copied multiple times), and can remove all of your opponents win conditions from the game entirely.

I doubt it is very good in regular Stax builds, but some of the more-recent lists abusing Tomb of Yawgmoth may be able to make a better use of it.

[Kieranwolf]

I think this card is yet another addition to black's arsenal. It's great with Chalice, unlike Extract. All you have to do is break a lotus, fetch, or petal. Or waste/strip something. Or blow EE. Or let smokestack trigger.

The problem is that you'd need to be using it with full artifact acceleration and/or dark rituals. Otherwise it has synergy with every removal card printed.

[Vegeta2711]

This card has recently been spoiled on MTG Salvation, and will apparently be released in the upcoming set- Future Sight.

Bitter Ordeal   
Casting Cost:
Sorcery

Search target player's library for a card and remove that card from the game.Then that player shuffles his or her library.

Gravestorm (When you play this spell, copy it for each permanent put into a graveyard from play this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)

This also has been discussed on SCG, but originally proposed to be run in Stax. I myself don't think that a card like this would be strong at all in such a deck, but I'd imagine that it could be a strong-selection elsewhere.

When teamed with fetchlands, Petals, et cetera, Gravestorm allows you to target multiple cards in your opponent's library, which can lead to serious problems in several Vintage decks.

Discuss.

Crap, but since it removes cards from people's library it'll see play off and on by people for some unknown reason. People in Vintage have some sort of fetish towards any card that can do that. 

[Kieranwolf]

This card has recently been spoiled on MTG Salvation, and will apparently be released in the upcoming set- Future Sight.

Bitter Ordeal   
Casting Cost:
Sorcery

Search target player's library for a card and remove that card from the game.Then that player shuffles his or her library.

Gravestorm (When you play this spell, copy it for each permanent put into a graveyard from play this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)

This also has been discussed on SCG, but originally proposed to be run in Stax. I myself don't think that a card like this would be strong at all in such a deck, but I'd imagine that it could be a strong-selection elsewhere.

When teamed with fetchlands, Petals, et cetera, Gravestorm allows you to target multiple cards in your opponent's library, which can lead to serious problems in several Vintage decks.

Discuss.

Crap, but since it removes cards from people's library it'll see play off and on by people for some unknown reason. People in Vintage have some sort of fetish towards any card that can do that. 

It's also an annoying stall tactic with a lot of copies, what with the repeated shuffles. You might even be able to wear out your opponent's hands until they can't finish the round. XP

[Almighty]

That's a cool idea, but I can't see why it could possibly be a better selection than Brain Freeze. Freeze pitches to FOW, and is much easier to cast because it doesn't require you to fetch for a dual, and costs less.

Cost isn't the issue. Remember, Black lotus makes black mana too. Oh, and since you have millions and millions of mana available with the combo in place, what's an extra colorless? 

Semantics aside, I can see this popping up in sui type decks like what Vincent Forino runs. Might not be all that good, but it's still a powerful effect when it works.

[CCClark]

Quick question, when exactly is the Gravestorm counted, upon resolution or announcement of the spell? 

I'm assuming announcement.  So that makes this not so great since you can't go nuts with a Zuran Orb or such in response to bump it up a few copies.  This makes it quite hard to get anywhere near the power it needs to be devastating enough on the first few turns to do real amazing damage.   It does go well with Petal though.

[demonic effect]

I'm assuming that you mean the player casting bitter ordeal will also have the zuron orb.  In that case I don't understand what your complaint is because you will just do your fun tricks with the orb or whatever you want to do before casting bitter ordeal.  Its not really THAT different having to sac a land before you play it vs. during resolution etc...  Whats more relevant is that if someone is going to use this card with neat "tricks" like zuron orb they should already be winning at that point unless they are thinking of using the card as a win condition.  At which point, the RFG aspect isn't really important so much as removing cards from someone's library so that they deck themselves.  Since that is the case I agree with what people have already posted before discussing why Brain Freeze is supperior.  Granted different card with different use, but to the decks that can make infinite permenants it also tends to be the fact that they can also tend to produce infinite mana and can play enough spells to rack up storm (dragon as ex of both). In these cases bitter ordeal is in no way better than something like brain freeze and, while brain freeze may not be better than bitter ordeal as a win condition it is also a blue card and therefore helps FoW in dire situations being able to be returned by cunning wish if need be.

Additionally, as a win condition, Brain Freeze is an instant while bitter ordeal is a sorcery.  There are definately games that decks like Dragon attempt to go off during an opponents turn at instant speed meaning that brain freeze is strictly superior

[Laplie]

Quick question, when exactly is the Gravestorm counted, upon resolution or announcement of the spell? 

I'm assuming announcement.  So that makes this not so great since you can't go nuts with a Zuran Orb or such in response to bump it up a few copies.  This makes it quite hard to get anywhere near the power it needs to be devastating enough on the first few turns to do real amazing damage.   It does go well with Petal though.

I'm assuming it will work the same way as regular storm: the amount of copies is determined when the triggered abilty resolves.

On another note, i don't see this card making much of a splash in vintage.  Jester's cap is usually better in Stax, and brain freeze usually does better in most sorts of infinite grave/spell decks

[roberts91rom]

Last I checked Brain Freeze can't beat DSC or Gaea's Blessing.

No, but seriously this card looks very strong in Stax. It's not uncommon to be able to come up with 3 mana. (Workshop isn't the ONLY mana source in the deck you know) Not to mention by the time you have that kind of mana you probably have some form of lock going. Crucible/Strip? Take out 5 cards please. Smokestack@2? 3 cards right there. Cap isn't exactly devastating early game, when a lock piece would help out more, and by even the mid game this card will often take at LEAST 3 cards. I really can't believe the deck that runs the most mana sources in Vintage is complaining about a CMC of 3. Not only is this card good by itself, it also has synergy (I hear that's good) with 5 strips, X fetches, 4 smokestack, XBraids, X Cabal Pit/BRing, etc. People were going bonkers over Extirpate in Stacks and this is Extirpate on drugs.

[yespuhyren]

Ummm..........early caps aren't necessarily as good as late game???  You are CLEARLY playing cap wrong then.  Against decks with 3 or less win conditions, the whole point is to cap them ASAP.  IF you let them get one of their win conditions in hand, then cap is pointless.  I don't care about capping for random cards.  I want to win right there and then.  Thats the point.  Take out the creatures in oath.  Take out all the win conditions from Gifts.  Take out all the Tendrils in Tendrils.