Chalice is mainly for zero. Zero against TPS, zero against Long, zero against Slaver, with options to go for one as well if time permits. By the time I'm dropping that second Chalice for 1, Rituals are spent and Duresses/Therapies have been used as well. The only danger is having no answer for DSC. That's why I run Edict.

As for Chalice at 2, this sort of deck will never be happy with it, but against, say, Oath, it would be nice to be able to drop it and not commit suicide thereby. I am thinking of swapping in Glowriders for Spheres, as this will only hurt the aggro matchup where Spheres weren't stellar to begin with. What do people think of this switch? It makes my disruption a bit slower, but gives me more oomph. I usually want to drop a Sphere effect after I have a board built up anyway.

Splashing blue instead of white makes me the Sullivan Solution. A very different deck. Blue gives me reactive answers; this would cease being a hate deck and would turn into thin-lipped aggro control with shit like Dimir Cutpurse. The same logic excludes an otherwise decent card like Imp's mischief: I just can't be bothered to leave mana open like that, it hurts my development at all stages of the game.

I have been thinking more about the SB. I don't know if I am going to run Leylines, it's overkill in the Ichorid matchup, and there are other cards that hose Ichorid in like manner, but are useful in other matchups (Extirpate, Pithing Needle, Faerie Macabre, to some extent Tormod's Crypt and Yixlid Jailer). I do like that Leyline is un-Chaliceable, though, and free. I just hate having to run 4 of them.

A preliminary SB rewrite:

3 Kataki
2 StP
2 Extirpate
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Disenchant
1 Contagion
4 [something]

Fish:
+2 StP
+2 Extirpate (Fish is a redundant deck and I won't be Chalicing at 1 in this m.u.)
+1 Disenchant
+1 Contagion (yeah buddy)
-4 Glowrider/Sphere
-1 Diabolic Edict
-1 [something]

Other aggro:
same but no Extirpates and leave Edicts and [something] in

Oath:
+1 Disenchant
+2 StP
-2 Wretch
-1 Contagion

TPS:
+1 Disenchant
-1 Contagion
(StP and Edict still good for DSC)

Slaver:
+1 Stp
+1 Disenchant
-1 Contagion
-1 [something]

Ichorid:
+2 Jailer
+2 StP
+2 Extirpate
+1 Contagion
-5 discard spells

Only 4 of these 7 Ichorid SB cards are dedicated hate, but combined with 4 Wretch, 3 Grunt, and 5 strip effects I feel good about this matchup without Leylines.

I am no master sideboarder though, like a lot of people it's my worst area and I'm just guessing here. What do people think?

Thanks for all your help,
Eric

I have cut the Demonic Tut. recently because it is simply too slow in mono-black and cannot fetch anything that wins me the game pre-sideboard. I am reserving the possibility of running DT in my 'board, but this is uncertain.

Much as it pains me to say it, this deck does need the white splash. Jotun Grunt is too good in this deck not to be a 3-of, and StP and Kataki keep me in the game against the otherwise unwinnable matchups (Oath and MUD, respectively). Factories have been unimpressive, I was happy to have quality creatures (Grunts) to replace them, even if resorting to traditional casting cost works less well with Spheres and Chalices. I feel that Factories are better in more controllish builds, like Void, or in a more single-minded strategy, like Zherbus's 2002 list. With the printing of Jotun Grunt, Withered Wretch, Kataki, Yixlid Jailer, and even Aven Mindcensor, B/W hate has a real shot of hating hard on a lot of strategies at once, while having respectable 'legs' (4/4 in Grunt, 2/2 in Wretch, and 2/1 flying in Mindcensor) to complement Negators.

I have been admiring Schonkreuz's deck (also in this forum) and the Ponies deck linked within that thread. This deck is something like TMWA or Ponies but it replaces some of the creature answers with a suite of 8 targeted discard spells, Black's greatest asset, and it replaces some of those creatures' beatdown, and the extremely fast spirit guide mana necessary to execute those decks' gameplans, for staying power in Confidant. Plus it has a more stable manabase than all of those builds with the exception of monored TMWA (despite the anti-strip measure of Magus of the Moon in TMWA).

Here is my latest list:

//DISRUPTION
4x Chalice
4x Sphere

//DISCARD
4x Duress
2x Therapy
2x Unmask

//CREATURES
4x Confidant
4x Negator
4x Wretch
3x Grunt

//&C
1x StP
1x Edict
1x Contagion
1x Consult

//MANA
25x same as above

//SIDEBOARD
4x Leyline
3x Kataki
2x StP
2x Extirpate
4x metagame (currently: 1 Disenchant for Oath and 3 Aven Mindcensor when Wretch is less relevent)

I opt for Leyline over Jailer mainly because of the mana cost. I don't want to become too vulnerable at the 2cc spot either pre- or post-board. I will make decks maneuver their Leyline-hate through my discard gauntlet. By the time they accomplish this I hope to either have the mana to replay it (if it bounced) or dig far enough to find #2, and/or get Wretch active. Jailer is better than Wretch against Ichorid, but worse in every other matchup. The way I see it, only instant-speed, targeted removal can save me from Welding and from a giant Goyf.

If I expect a lot of Workshop-based aggro I may turn to Emissary of Despair. Part of the problem in this matchup is how easily their deck can cast a Chalice at 2, which cuts of all of my creatures except the one they would love me to play, Negator. Kataki just plays right into that weakness. Emissary, on the other hand, could be a bomb if he can be protected from Triskelion.

Random other thoughts--

(1) Null Rod. Seems like there should be room for it, at least in the SB, but it's not spectacular against any of the problem matchups. Chalice is better on the play against Moxen, and Sphere of Resistance is comparably good on the draw, but way closer to a 'lock piece' in a variety of other situations not involving artifacts.

(2) Mana Crypt for additional speed?

(3) Trinisphere? This is a legitimate direction for the deck. Subbing Glowriders for Wretches (pushing Wretches to SB) and maybe Thorn of Amethyst for some combination of Negators, Grunts, and discard would more or less result in The Swamps (& Plains) Win Again, for a storm-heavy meta. But boy would this deck roll over to Dredge.

(4) I am happy with the spread in my spot removal suite. Contagion is best under multiple Chalices and/or Spheres, and against Fish-type builds. StP is the most versatile and the most powerful, but has the least convenient cc; and Edict is very passable at the 2-mana slot, and is strengthened by the targeted quality of the other two (and 2 more swords from the boards).

Ever since the printing of Chalice of the Void, Withered Wretch, and Dark Confidant, I have been thinking about mono black aggro/control. The deck stems from Suicide black, but Chalice gives it game against Sligh-type aggro and hoses the shit out of combo. Chalice Black swaps Suicide's amazing game against Keeper and some non-Keeper control, and good game against old-school combo, for the best game an aggro deck could hope for against new-school combo, a good game against most control, and decent games 2 and 3 against aggro(/control).

Here is Zherbus's 2002 build, which is the starting point for my own:

//(Disruption - 20)
4 Duress
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void

//(Threats - 12)
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Mishra's Factory

//(Broken - 3)
1 Demonic Consultation (Happy now?)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

//(Mana - 25)
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
12 Swamp

And here is the build I'm fiddling with now:

//DISRUPTION (16)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Unmask

//THREATS (14)
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
2 Mishra's Factory

//SPOT REMOVAL (3)
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Contagion

//TUTOR (2)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation

//MANA (25)
12 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
1 Strip Mine
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal

Discussion---

Disruption. With the advent of fetches, the madness mechanic, and the general graveyard-whoring that is the hallmark of nearly every tier 1 deck, I feel that Sinkhole and Hymn to Tourach are outdated disruption choices. I elect to go the discard route. The Unmasks have been phenomenal. Chalices (my own or others') can't touch them, and they even make Chaliced cards in my hand useful. Plus, they are free. They also strengthen the remaining Therapies by giving me more peeks at my opponent's hand. With 14 creatures, flashing back Therapy is always an option, but 4 in a deck that sometimes wants to name 1 with Chalice is foolish. These four slots correspond to Zherbus's 4 Hymns.

The Sinkholes are benched in favor of the drawing power of Confidant. The plan no longer has to be total annihilation of opponent's resources and a win on the back of a turn 2 or 3 Shade/Negator. While the best decks still outdraw me in a vacuum, Confidant goes a long way to evening up the amount of cards my opponent and I see during a single game.

Note also that once Sinkhole and Hymn are cut, my need for two black sources goes down significantly. In fact, this build has only 30 specific mana among all main deck spells (not counting the essentially free Contagion and Unmasks), as opposed to 35 for Zherbus's Chalice Black and even more for traditional Sui. This cuts down on the instances when my available sources restrict my play during the all-important first three turns.

Thorn of Amethyst might be a better choice than Sphere in some matchups, but not in the aggro/control matchups, which I think are key for this deck's viability in the new meta. I'm open to suggestions on this though.

Creatures. IMO Withered Wretch is the best card in this deck. He is a bomb in so many matchups, matchups that only got stronger after the June 20th bannings. He eats 'goyfs for breakfast, Ichorid for lunch, and Welder for dinner. In conjunction with Extirpate and Leylines coming in off the SB (see below),  completely blanking graveyard-based strategies becomes a legitimate possibility. Nezumi Graverobber is worse in every way except mana cost.

In terms of internal deck synergies Negator hasn't been this good since the days of Sarcomancy. Chalice and Sphere protect him from StP, Mogg Fanatic, Lightning Bolt, and cheapo bounce, while his drawback allows you to shuffle Chalice values when necessary.

I was never a very big fan of Nantuko Shade. He's just very average, and somewhat counterintuitive in a disruptive deck, in that he sometimes makes you choose between disruption and racing. By replacing him with 8 creatures with monster abilities (Confidant, Wretch) I trade the occasional 9/8 or 10/9 swing for acceptably consistent beats and a way better matchup with combo. In this deck, any extra mana goes to Wretch. Period.

The 2 Factories are an uncertain spot. I may replace them with more disruption or something else entirely.

Spot removal. Again, with the printing of Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf there is no end to the decks that are running at least some creatures. Contagion helps dispose of Chaliced cards and is kind of like Fire/Ice in that it can hit two x/1s at instant speed. Edicts are my maindeck answer for Tinker as well as very decent spot removal in conjunction with smart blocking and Contagion. Out of the board this plan is supplemented vs. aggro by 1 or 2 more Contagions and 1 or 2 more Edicts.

Tutor. Demonic Consultation is fabulous in this deck, and Demonic Tutor is pretty good as always. DT is great against jankier decks where tempo isn't as important but card selection is, and it can always be pitched to Unmask or Contagion when I don't have the mana or the time to go fishing. Yawgmoth's Will is bad with Chalice and Spheres. Necropotence is always an option but in light of the relatively control-light meta right now the slot is better served as something not so one-minded. Necro is a suboptimal play (even first turn) against combo and aggro, which make up the majority of the field. In those matchups I'm usually the control, so to speak.

Mana. As Zherbus said six years ago, having 8 Rituals (more or less) is key to establishing control early on. So far this manabase is really working. I am also considering Mana Crypt instead of Lotus Petal in light of the reduction of black mana that this deck needs as opposed to Zherbus's Chalice Black.

Converted Costs and Playability. There are a few things about the curve worth pointing out. Since both Chalice and Bob care about converted costs, it is productive to optimize the deck with regard to these restrictions. 26 cards (almost half) carry no converted mana cost (or 22 if you are casting Chalice for something other than zero). I am about evenly split between 1cc and 2cc cards (12 vs. 15) which I feel is an improvement over the old Sui lists which basically died to a Chalice at 2 (Welder MUD's favorite). I have 4 cards at 3cc, 2 at 4cc, and 1 and 5cc. On the other hand, the 3 cards over 3cc (2 Unmask, 1 Contagion) are actually free for the purposes of playing. I believe that one of this build's great strengths is its ability to abuse Chalice and Bob in conjunction with one another.


Sideboard---

Chalice Black needs to keep hating to keep winning. The following spots are all but certain:

4 Leyline of the Void (in for Edicts and Contagion vs. creatureless combo; stomps so many decks and I can hardcast it if needs be)
4 Extirpate (Simply unfair)
1 Contagion (Fish, MUD)

The other six spots are more or less up in the air. Pithing Needle is a strong contender as always, but it's 1cc is actually a drawback in this deck, and 4 Extirpate already limits how many 1cc spells I can comfortably fit in. Masticore is a beast, as always, but he is now kind of random here. Null Rod improves my game on the draw, when Chalice is not effective, but in general its functionality is all but superseded by Chalices (which stay in vs. pretty much anything) and Pithing Needles. Yixlid Jailer might get a few spots if there is room, it's always good to add to the gyard hate these days.

I have also discovered a somewhat janky tech vs. MUD (the worst matchup as always for monoblack): Emissary of Despair

Emissary of Despair        1BB

Flying

Whenever Emissary of Despair deals combat damage to a player, that player loses 1 life for each artifact he or she controls.

2/1

This would be perfect to side in for Negators in that matchup, and might be worth siding in for Wretch in matchups where Wretch is dead. Note that -4 Wretch, +4 Emissary makes Chalice at 2 a more realistic lockdown option. By no means does this card make the Stax/MUD matchups good, but I think it gives me as good a chance as I could hope for to roll the second 2 games or one of them if I managed to manascrew/race in game 1.


Cards not included:

Mesmeric Fiend (Always decent, but too Fishy. If I ran this I might as well add 4 Aether Vial and Blue or White and become Fish.)
Thoughtseize (In the hands of a reasonably informed player I feel that Therapy is always as good or better than Thoughtseize, and Unmask's card disadvantage matters less in this deck than in most others, while (for the same reason) its high manacost is actually a boon.)
Powder Keg (It eats my Chalices; and blowing it for 1 isn't that strong cause that's what Chalice should be set at. In the end it's a pretty good card that's good in some matchups and dead in others. Chalice takes care of most of its best functions.)
Dystopia (It's so good! But so dead in current meta!)

Matchups. I have not done extensive testing but what testing I have done, along with some common sense, suggests the following--- The strength of this deck is its ability to eat Tendrils alive on the play, and to give it game on the draw, while still remaining beefy and disruptive enough to race Drain-based control. Against aggro/control and straight aggro Chalice Black is not forced to choose between aggro and control strategies. Chalice and Sphere give it the ability to do both at once, simultaneously denying those precious 1-mana cards (Bolt, StP, 1cc creatures, Fish's Brainstorm, Vials) and making others more expensive, while beating down or at least holding its own on the board.

Splash. Right now I'm really happy with the deck as a mono black deck. But the question of a splash will inevitably arise. I think White is the best choice for the strategy as it stands, and a card-by-card analysis essentially breaks down like this---

---Jotun Grunt for Withered Wretch: decent gyard hate, bigger beats. Dissynergy with Leylines and Extirpates (and opponents will be packing Leylines of their own), whereas Wretch has positive synergy with these cards and is indifferent to opposing Leylines.
---StP instead of Edicts and Contagion: overall better removal, but 1cc hurts here and Contagion's card-disadvantage is actually an advantage in that Chaliced cards can be put to some use. But white is an undeniable improvement in the spot-removal department.
---Kataki (in for something): it's good in the abstract but I'm not sure what would come out for it. There's a point at which having a bunch of 2/x's makes me super-vulnerable to Fire/Ice and earthquake effects.
---Enhanced vulnerability to strip effects, which are going to be really big in the new Vintage, I think. Also, the creation of Stifle targets (fetches) in a deck with a minimum of good Stifle targets (only the 5 strip lands, Confidant, and Wretch).
---Artifact-hate in the board.


I'm just not sure it's worth it. The question essentially becomes-- is the extra beats (4/4) and the better Staxx matchup worth the loss of whatever I would need to take out (Wretch? Discard effects? Tutorage? Negators?). The point is, this deck is great at creating a situation where Negator's drawback doesn't matter (within reason). I'm not sure I can say the same for Grunt (could randomly die) or Kataki (1 toughness). Once again, these additions essentially push the deck toward Fish, which is a slower and weaker (in terms of creature power) deck than I want this to be. Chalice mandates speed, beef, and a well-distributed curve, three classic weaknesses of Fish.

The deck's main weaknesses are also perennial weaknesses of monoblack--

(1) Vulnerability to the topdeck, and, relatedly,

(2) Vulnerability to resolved anything.

I think the negative/positive engine of Chalice + Bob obviates the need for Chains, which are all but dead in the TMWA and MUD matchups (two of the problem matchups here), but I always keep it in the back of my mind as one possible solution.

Extirpate off the SB ameliorates #1 a bit, and to a lesser extent (basically, versus non-instants) Nezumi Shortfang.

#2 is really the best argument for a splash, but like I said it may not be worth the other sacrifices needed for that move. Honestly, most decks can't resolve much relevant stuff against Chalice Black before zero life.

Thoughts?

Null Rods are very good, this may be a good way to include them. Poor Sinkhole. Well, Wasteland + Strip may just be enough-- it's not like LD is a long-term strategy, especially with Brainstorm + fetch ruling the roost. It is at most a slight gain in tempo. With Null Rod I shut off lots of mana sources, as you said. Plus it's colorless instead of black, which really pushes my deck into the no-mana-screw zone, with only 8 cards left! It's pretty hard to draw seven that don't have what you need, mana-wise, except when it's Wasteland, Wasteland, Dark Ritual.

It is also good, as you say, to have a plan on the draw. Chalice is admittedly a lot weaker then, at least for the first two turns until you set up and can afford to Chalice for 1, at which point it's back online as legitimate disruption, which doubles (in the face of Oxidize and Chain of V., at least) as its own protection.

The addition of Null Rod makes Echoing Truth even better against this deck's disruption. However, I can cherry-pick that card with any of six targeted or six random discard effects. Also, its impact against Chalice is less relevant because no matter what, Chalice at zero on the play robs the player of those all-important first Moxen/other Moxen-like producers/Lotus drops. After I get another whack at their hand/land, or play a creature, they then play their second land and bounce Chalice. Best case scenario. As for Echoing Truth v. Null Rod, also not great, it opens up mana for one turn (but you spent two to do it), and there will not be more than one Null Rod in play (or if for some reason there are, it's not a two-for-one, they don't stack).

Eric

Opted to down the Hyppie count (a slow card I only ever want to see one of, and which will either win me the game singlehandedly or be worthless) in favor of upping the Sinkhole back to three. New list:

//Creatures (16)
4 Wretch
4 Bob
4 Negator
2 Hyppie
2 Fiend

//Disruption (17)
4 Chalice
4 Hymn
4 Duress
3 Sinkhole
2 Edict

//Consistency/Mana (1)
Consult

//Mana (26)
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
13 Swamp

//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Contagion
2 Masticore
2 Dystopia
2 Null Rod
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Demonic Tutor

I noticed that having multiple Sinkholes can be bad, too, in this fast environment they are just too hard to unload in multiples, and often not worth it when you take a close look at the losses/gains of spending a turn on sorcery-speed LD. Three has been working out for me-- I still get one sometimes, and sometimes it's important, but now I have three topdeck/hold-back answers to DSC (incl. Consultation) with two more (incl. Tutor) coming in from the board.

I put the Dystopias back in because (a) I have room now, and they're next on the list of necessary; (b) I played an Oath match and realized it's unwinnable without them. With them, it's still not the greatest, but they're a good topdeck. I mean, the games I played were long and came down to topdecks a lot of the time. Leyline was really good here, as I got my opponent down to six cards in library, but I had only drawn one of my Edicts by then, and he had two Oaths out. Two Oaths hurts, that's where Dystopia could come in.

Eric

I'm considering -4 Sinkhole +4 Shadow of Doubt, but I really don't want to do it for a number of reasons. Shadow is no easier to cast, is a reactive answer meaning I have to play like a control deck when I have it, and that's not this deck-- it's supposed to be proactive disruption, not control in a strict sense. It would help against Tinker game one, though. Another strike against it is that it's a lot like a counter-- it's no good to search for after the fact, you need to be holding it when Tinker happens. Edict is an all-around better card, being good against other decks, too.

Heck maybe I'll go -2 Sinkhole, +2 Edict. I think Edict is a great solution. This deck is made to rip counters before playing important stuff. If my opponent has another creature out (Welder, most likely), that's tough shakes, but I'll side in Contagions in game two.

Or maybe I don't need to take out Sinkholes. Since Edicts account for one of my opponent's creatures, I could ostensibly take out two creatures with minimal impact (except less beatdown early-game vs. decks whose only creature is DSC). I could see -1 Negator, -1 Hyppie.

I actually tend to favor the Sinkhole solution. I can simply SB the Sinkholes and bring them back in in any match where Edicts are really dead, or where they'd be more helpful. Can't really think of a better way out right now. I don't want to start down the long path of infinite 3-ofs and 2-ofs.


Eric

PS I played a game against CS last night where my opponent Ensnaring Bridged me early. Ouch. But with Chalice and Null Rod I had the game locked down, a few times his hand filled up and I swung in for six or eight damage, but eventually he ran out of cards-- draw spells hurt him!

In a word: yes. Chalice is so much more than an artifact mana/Tormod's Crypt hoser. Null Rod works fine for that. What Null Rod dosen't do, though, is match your deck up casting-cost-for-casting-cost to your opponent's, find the greatest discrepancy, and capitalize. All for a maximum of four mana. It's best as a maindeck card, I think, because it pays to build your deck with Chalice in mind. Not so much build your deck around Chalice, but consider which are your best Chalice numbers, and smoosh some slots to other casting costs. Again, not all or anything, but some where it doesn't hurt you (Example: Echoing Truth over Chain of Vapor).

Eric

No, check out the explanatory text for the Suspend mechanic:


This will add to storm count.

One confusing thing here is that this happens to be a Suspend-mechanic card where Suspend is the only option. You can't 'hardcast' it, so to speak, like you can with Lightning Zap, mentioned above. So it doesn't have a casting cost (maybe Wizards will rule that it's zero, as with creature tokens).

I think we're dimissing it simply because it doesn't fit the style of play and, in particular, the decks, of contemporary Vintage. But Vintage will change, and maybe this card will even contribute to that process. If you go out of your way to build a deck around it (assuming it remains unrestricted), you may be able to break it. Who knows what the future holds? I mean, there was a time when we would have said the same thing about Donate. Useless card. But someone found a use. Not saying that this lends itself as much to a combo approach; however, I bet someone could come up with a halfway decent deck focused around exploding on turns 4 through 6.

That said, in the abstract, this is the single worse card to topdeck in Magic.

Eric

Some more thoughts and ideas, after playtesting and goldfishing some more.

(1) Holy croikee is Belcher a favorable matchup! They run so few land. Chalice is MVP, Wretch for their Welder, Null Rud out of the board!

(2) I played a Beacon/Doomsday combo deck, too. Owned that. Chalice at one prevents the stacked Ancestral from plowing through to Mind's Desire, Lotus, and Beacon; whereas Chalice for 0 coupled with LD can prevent Desire from resolving (they count on Lotus). This is kind of just jank combo, but it's nice to know that Chalice's all-around utility means something.

(3) I'm no longer that worried about the deck's ability to unload effectively. Lotus + Jet help, no issues with Chalice ordinarily, just good old-fashioned accelerando. While it's true that the deck packs too many cards in the 2cc slot, it makes up for this by Chalicing for 0 and then 1 (and winning out big-time on those plays), and honestly the cards in these slots are the heart of the deck, and it's not worth changing them to something less useful just to make the curve a bit better. If I were to replace 2cc cards, it would only be with 1cc cards, in which case I'm hurting myself on Chalice more. The only tenable switch in this regard is Therapy for Hymn or Therapy for Sinkhole (I also considered Pithing Needle for Sinkhole, which would take the deck in a new direction (more utility) but make it more vulnerable to artifact hate that Vintage is simply packed with, and, again, more vulnerable to my own Chalice). I also noticed that my previous worries were based on my pseudo-Legacy play with this deck vs. my friends' casual decks, where Chalicing for zero isn't strong and you have to Chalice for 1. When this deck has to Chalice for one instead of, rather than in addition to zero, it tends to get the Limp Black syndrome Tan talks about, where you go:

Swamp, Ritual, Hymn, burn for one, go.
Swamp, tap, tap, Sinkhole, go.
Swamp, tap, tap, Chalice at one, go.

And you wonder why you even drop third-turn lands at all. You had one of your '1cc cards' (Ritual) and yet it's still painfully obvious that your deck = 2cc.

Anyhow, with my first Chalice normally coming out for zero, this deck feels a lot more 'powered,' because Chalice is like this mini-Mox that is in reality a Mox-hater! (Especially on the play.) So, on the play, we get (with quite possibly the same exact hand as before):

Swamp, Chalice at zero, Ritual, Hymn, burn for one, go.
Swamp, tap, tap, Sinkhole on the only land (no Mox), go.
Swamp, tap, tap, Bob/Wretch/Fiend/Sinkhole/Hymn, go.

Now, we are still somewhat tied up at 2cc if we haven't draw into Duress or Ritual or even Waste/Strip; however, with Chalice coming down for zero we get one 2cc-card FURTHER into our hand. That makes all the difference, as next turn we'll draw two cards thanks to Confidant and swing for 2, shut down the yard and swing for 2, etc. Anyhow to others this may have been simple but it took me a while to move Chalice to the '0cc' column in my head. Chalice at one wrecks lots of decks, but zero on the play is great, and zero on the draw is still better than allowing some topdecked 0cc nonsense to accelerate my opponent into the one threat/tutor I wasn't able to nab this turn.

(4) Still mulling over Vial, Razormane/Jitte/Masticore (and I even considered Cursed Scroll here, but quickly decided that it's too situational and doesn't beat the way those other three do-- it's about as effective against creatures, but half as effective against black-hating strategies).

(5) Fiends are good, but adding any more maindeck would water down my creature base or my disruption base, making it better against some things and worse against others. The most probable cut would be -2 Hymn +2 Fiends, but Hymn is great so far in testing. Misdirection is the biggest problem, and I now have 6 discard effects to strip it before I Hymn, plus Sinkholes to bait it out with. I'm particularly fond of Fiend in conjunction with Hippie. When I can ensure that Hippie swings in once, it sort of snowballs from there for me.

(6) Twice while playing the Beacon/Doomsday deck, my opponent had Tinker in hand (he played DSC (and Tendrils) as alternate wins). I Duressed it away once while his manabase was in disarray, and a second time I think I had a Chalice on 0 or else a Null Rod and it was likewise deck. At one point when he had it in his hand, and I knew that he did, I actually had enough to Chalice for 3, plus the mana to do it if I committed. However, the game was over at that point as I think my attack that turn killed him.

(7) 13 Swamp (Lotus + Jet account for the others) is sweet. I'm having good draws as far as land goes, or moderate draws which Confidant smooths out. Twice against Belcher I drew a sideboarded-in Null Rod without the mana to play it, and both times Ritualed-out Confidant reveals a Swamp on the following turn.

(8) Belcher used Oxidize to remove Chalice and Null Rod post-board. Seeing as lots of decks also use Chain of Vapor, I feel good about the deck's chances against artifact removal post-board. Hurkyl's Recall and Echoing Truth are really best against me, as Chalice for 2 is too crippling to try except against Oath, so those are the ones to watch out for.

(9) I have been considering Mana Crypt, basically because I find that Sol Ring is fantastic with Wretch, allowing me to play my infinite 2cc stuff with 2 swamps while always leaving that invaluable 2 colorless open. It feels a lot like Vial in Vial Goblins in terms of how it frees up my mana. In fact, Vialing in a Wretch is a prime reason to use Vial. Which I'm also considering, but it hasn't been great in testing-- seems like the kind of card that's a bit far from my strategy at present, would require an overhaul to include.

(10) Withered Wretch.dec?

(11) I recently played against Gifts control. In the first games, I generally lost to Tinker unless I got lucky with Duresses, Hymns, Fiends, and Hyppies, or unless my opponent was mega manascrewed. The sideboarded games, however, were fantastically close, with me mostly having the edge. The plan was:

+2 Null Rod
+3 Edict
+1 Demonic (I used this once to find an Edict-- sweetness!)

-2 Sinkhole
-1 Negator
-1 Hymn
-1 Wretch

In retrospect I should not have taken out Wretch, as resolving him practically means game here. I remember winning one game by Chalicing for 3 when it become evident that taking Yawg's Will and Tinker offline would win it, but I went back later and realized I also could have gone for Wretch, removing Will and Tinker from the yard, where they were. Either way. (I knew my opponent had no counter backup.) This is one of those matchups that make me wish I had room to maindeck Null Rod.

(12) I also played a Madness deck. Aggro decks in general are bad news, but green is the calmest flavor, meaning that if I resolve a first-turn Hyppie with a decent hand otherwise, I probably win. On the draw with no first-turn play, it's tough. My SB plan was:

-2 Negator
-4 Chalice (can get one of their three pieces of power on the play, or go for 1 to nab 'Walla, but all in all it's not worth the freight)
-3 Hymn

+3 Edict
+3 Contagion
+2 Masticore
+1 Demonic Tutor

I kept some Negators in 'cause they're just so huge. First-turn Negator is still good, esp. if I have excess lands and all my opponent drops is Rootwalla. This configuration worked pretty well. I'll call this matchup a toss. All in all my gameplan is more cohesive, but the Mongrel/Wall/Wurm/Logic synergies are pretty ridiculous.

(13) And lastly, I played Stax. I played kind of poorly as I haven't played Stax that often and am not comfortable yet. Even so, I got pretty well handled game one (turn one Trini off Workshop doesn't help . . . at least it's restricted). SB:

+2 Null Rod
+3 Contagion
+3 Edict

-4 Negator (can't be sacrificing even more things!)
-4 Sinkhole (manascrew really isn't an option here, when it comes at the price of and a turn (usually))

This worked decently post-SB. Chalices are nice to just throw out there for zero if there's no other use for them. Getting down a Chalice on the play, Wasting a Workshop, or first-turn Hyppying are all strong options. I'd call this 60/40 in favor of Stax. Winnable with a little luck of the die/topdecks, but their board removal strategy clearly has the edge. The greatest thing about my deck, though, being a tempo deck, is that I'm equipped to take advantage of any little reprieves in the Stax player's disruption. This is a deck that loves getting 'land, go' turns thrown back at it, where it can sieze the tempo and steamroll from there. Each little tempo card creates more time for each little tempo card. It's a tenuous strategy (that's why we also have cards like Negator, which just hammer), but when it gets going, it's very strong against any deck.

Eric

I had not yet considered Razormane. I think his casting cost is prohibitively high. He doesn't regenerate. And it's not that big a deal that he goes to the head, because I side in Masticores usually against creatures, so his mission is to take them out. He also doesn't chump block something huge (well, no one can chump DSC, really, but Masti can take 4 dmg. out of his punch for 2 colorless). Workshop can barf out mana like anything, I can't, it's not in gameplan; conversely, control can control the game until 5 mana and counter backup present themselves. I can't do that either.

*

Oh, restricted Necropotence, you're just so random now. No way I can count on you in my opening hand, but no way I can count on not drawing you when I have out a Bob.

*

This deck doesn't lose to random Tinker as easily as it may look. It's hard to gauge how effective proactive disruption is, whereas with counter you see it right in front of you-- wow, he FoWed my important spell. But against the matchups where Tinker mana can go up turn one, I am mulliganing for Chalice, Consultation (Chalice), Duress, or Ritual/Fiend. Barring Tinker + gas in the opening hand on the draw, the deck has a good chance to never see Tinker resolve. For those extra-long games where it's just impossible to keep my opponent off 2U, I have the possibility of Chalicing for 3. If it comes to that.

As with most monoblack lists of the past, its combo game, both pre- and post-board, is pretty dependent on the die roll. Even more so nowadays, as combo has sped up considerably (however, if you do survive past turn 1, a well-aimed Duress or a lucky Hymn or two practically seal victory).

*


I assume you're talking about the Dauthi. They're actually in Tempest, not Stronghold. The basic problem with the Dauthi creatures isn't really Shadow (although that is a problem, as it's meaningless in every matchup except aggro, where it hurts you unless you have out a Jitte). The basic problem isn't Shadow, it's that they're just not great creatures. BB for 2/2? Wretch gives you that, plus a game-changing instant-speed cheap ability. Confidant swaps one toughness for his ridiculousness. 1B for 2/1? No real ability except un-Swordsable. Confidant is again better. Fiend is better, as it swaps one power for Duress (I'll take one less damage point per attack for a Duress effect any day). It's not worth bastardizing the creature base to support Jitte. The better plan, if you want to smoosh Jitte in, is just to run more creatures. Viable, because almost all of the creatures pack some sort of disruption, so it won't be changing your disruption base if you do it right, it will just be making that disruption base more susceptible to creature control strategies, which don't exist in large numbers in Vintage anyway.

The third and fourth Fiends rather than Hyppies and perhaps some Chains out of the board would help the Grim matchup, although it's never going to be a particularly good one. But that would hurt lots of other matchups, where getting an 'active' (so to speak) Hyppie is devastating, and possible now with 6 Duress effects, 9 LD effects, and 4 Hymn that sort of skirt the line between the two.

*

My biggest bone with the deck now is just that 2cc spot. It's got eighteen cards there if you don't count Chalice-for-ones. That's a lot, and maybe it would be worth switching at least two of those cards for 1cc cards, to shore up the opening hand. That would still leave the deck in way better shape after a Chalice at one than most any deck. So, Sinkhole only works if you pack 4. If I take out 2 Hymn, I could go 2 Therapy. Less card advantage, more seeing my opponent's hand and putting irrelevant creatures to use (good for game-1 Wretches against a deck that ignores the yard). Less specific-mana intensive, too, which is great.

Or I could fit Aether Vial into the manabase, which can essentially drop my 2cc creatures out of the mana picture.

Neither of these options particularly appeal to me. Black just doesn't have that many quality one-drop disruption spells, and even fewer creatures.

The other option is to add more acceleration. Not sure how I would do this without hurting Chalice for zero or Null Rod. Mana Vault makes too much colorless; Mana Crypt is better, but works against Chalice and only helps cast 8 cards in the maindeck (Negator, Chalice), plus it deals me damage. Cabal Ritual is decent, kind of a Lotus Petal that requires 1B to function (and as a side-effect it turns one colorless into , which is good considering the problem cards in question mostly cost ), but to maximize it I would need to change the deck to put more cards in the yard. This is especially unuseful post-board if I bring in Leylines.

Of course, I've been playing without power at home. Lotus + Jet bring this closer to the level it needs to be at to have a prayer against the fastest of the fast.

Eric

(1) I just noticed that your current decklist is 61.

(2) I still disagree with 1x Hymn. The problem with running a tempo card (one which works best in the first few turns) in your toolbox is that you negate its slight advantage when you have to dig for it. The following happens, if you need it and don't have it: (1) Demonic makes Hymn cost 1BBB and 2 cards, negating card advantage and making Mind Twist a better choice; (2) Vampiric makes it BBB and 2 cards and a turn's draw, negating card advantage again, and costing as much as a single Mind Twist for 2 (but more specific); (3) Mystical makes it a multicolor card at BBU, 2 cards, and a turn's draw, for, again, a Mind Twist at 2. Of course, (4) sometimes you draw it just when you need it, but at 1, you seriously can't count on that. I mean, does this deck need it or doesn't it? It seems like a wishywashy include.

Now I'm not recommending Mind Twist. All that will do is make your tutor + discard move cost even more mana and cards and time, and choke off the possibility of adding more (restricted). I'm just using it as a yardstick, since it is generally known that, since Hymn is an early-game card, Mind Twist is really just an overcosted Hymn when you're not playing Drain.

Drawing it is only going to happen infrequently. And tutoring for it is akin to Demonic Tutoring up a Dark Ritual. The tempo gained = tempo spent, and you just played Le Vanilla.

If, on the other hand, you're not tutoring it up, but are content to just draw it sometimes, then I don't really understand its usage here. Either it's a card you want to see, or a card you don't. I don't think a strategy as tempo-dependent as SS's can legitimately need a card 1/60 of the time.

Eric

What do you mean, '4 Strips'? Is that 3 Wasteland and 1 Strip Mine? To maximize the Stifle tempo (when used as LD), cut the random singleton Hymn for the final Wasteland.

As far as The DSC Solution, you have 3 MD solutions (if you count your own Tinker) as well as a good draw engine to find them. And that's only if he resolves. You've got some mana denial, 4 Duress, and 4 FoW. Siding into more than 3 Edicts would be a mistake, I think. Consider Shadow of Doubt in addition to or in place of Edict. It's FoW 4-8 for Tinker (although it costs 2 instead of 0, of course), and is almost never dead, and can serve as a neo-Sinkhole if that's a good play (he's manascrewed or you drew The Disruption Hand and want to go for the kill).

Oath: Your DSC Solutions work even better against Oath, except that FoW is slightly less potent because Oath can come out turn 1, and after that there's nothing to FoW. Of course, Stifle comes online in a big way as a Time Walk vs. a resolved Oath or a Forbidden Orchard's use. Shadow of Doubt isn't as good here. Again, I'd recommend 3 Edicts maximum.

Eric

@wethepeople

Yeah, it's getting creature-heavy enough that Jitte looks good. I don't feel comfortable cutting creatures for it, because then its actual relevance goes down (nothing sucks like drawing a hand of 1 Mesmeric Fiend, 1 Jitte, and getting the Fiend countered/dealt with); whereas cutting disruption is just not the right move, I think. In short, the question is space. Although I am could see the argument for Jitte over Masticore in the side. Any thoughts on that switch? Mine:

(1) They suffer the same antisynergy with Null Rod out of the board
(2) Essentially Jitte pings for two a turn, if needed, and doesn't tie up mana doing it.
(3) Jitte is dependent on my having a creature capable of dealing some combat damage and surviving-- against creature decks (where I'd side this in) that's really only Negator and Hyppie once my opponent has a 2/x out. Against 1/x's Wretch is also good enough. Or if I can play Jitte very early and disrupt my opponent for a turn, I can get a clear swing in with anything, and it's off we go.
(4) Costs no more than Masticore even counting equip (but can come out a full two turns earlier [unaccel.] to be equipped the next turn)
(5) Offers lifegain to screw storm combo or offset late-game Confidant draws.
(6) Doesn't force discard.

Biggest cons/offsets to the aforementioned:
(1) It doesn't regenerate.
(2) Sure, Masti makes me discard, but this deck loves getting rid of Chaliced cards. Against creature-based decks where Chalicing for one might be a great play, it's part of the reason to side in Masticores and Contagions. Use those topdecked Duresses and Rituals after all!
(3) Its two abilities may look pretty equivalent to Masti's pinging plus his 4 power, but (a) Masti swings every turn, AND pings, whereas with Jitte you sort of have to choose between the 'four power' option and the 'ping twice' option; (b) His pinging comes online right away (granted, with six-mana potential on board, but it's a slight edge); (c) His blocking comes online right away, whereas with Jitte the creature has to have already survived a combat to simulate a 4/4 blocker.
(4) It costs 2. Please God, please no more two-cc stuff. My cup runneth over.
(5) Jitte doesn't provide a colorless damage source to the head, only to creatures. If I do indeed cut Dystopia, Jitte over Masticore makes Cop:Black or Storycircle gg.
(6) Null Rod completely negates Jitte. Masticore just becomes an overcosted 4/4 beater.

____________

I'm glad you're trying it out. I encourage everyone who has the time and interest to try it out, tweak it to your liking, give feedback here on this thread!

Wethepeople, have you subbed in Jitte for something? If so, for what, and were you happy with the switch(es)?

Glad to hear it's done well, generally. Are you playing sideboarded games, too? The sideboard is pretty important here, I think. On that note, I'll present the SB with 4 Leyline instead of Purges/P. Void:

//Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Contagion
2 Masticore (Jitte?)
2 Null Rod
1 Demonic Tutor

No more Dystopia. The Oath matchup sucked anyway (and Dystopia wasn't awesome in it, anyway), and my plan against jank is now:

+2 Masticore
+3 Contagion
+3 Diabolic Edict
+1 Demonic Tutor

-4 Negator
-4 Chalice of the Void (unless it's running a plethora of 1cc or 3cc buggers)
-1 least useful 4-of-- or against monocolored jank, a Wasteland.

My GrimLong plan is:

+4 Leyline
+2 Null Rod
+3 Edict

-4 Sinkhole (they run few lands anyway, Wasteland kills them all, I can't afford BB for a somewhat irrelevant play in this matchup)
-3 Hyppie (too slow: irrelevant)
-2 Negator (4-turn clock is laughable; this matchup is all about disruption fast and often)

Chalice at zero is the most important play of the game. On the play, you've got to try to mulligan down to Chalice or Consultation. And don't keep a hand on the draw unless you've got acceleration or Chalice, although it's a lot worse on the draw.

As you said, the matchup's tough for any deck not packing reactive answers to key spells/ Tendrils FTW. But I am interested in playing some more matches to find out what this deck's best strategy is, or how to tweak it to deal.

You recommend Jitte against Tendrils. I don't think it works against Grim Long, Grim comboes out too soon, there's no way you'd cast a creature, cast Jitte, equip, and swing if that was your plan (and that's at least six mana's worth of plan, so how soon is that going to happen? Turn three at best (discounting Sol Ring)). Against control decks packing Tendrils, maybe.

I'm interested to hear more about your experience with the deck, and any more suggestions you may have based on that experience. Which matchups did you test against? Any cool tricks or tips to pass on?

____________

I'm gladdened by all the responses, criticisms, suggestions. Keep them coming if you've got them. I feel the deck has made significant progress since my initial post, and look forward to whatever new ideas or tweaks (if we're at the tweaking stage) we can come up with.

Eric

PS Does the deck deserve a name? It's no Tier 1 mainstay or anything but I think it's safe to say it's better than most of the mono-b jank you see getting 69th at these tourneys.

Edict is strictly better as a reactive answer to DSC. It costs less, costs less specific mana, is an instant, doesn't harm my hand, land, or creatures As I understand it Pox works best when the deck revolves around maximizing its non-symmetry.

As far as a general-usefulness card, I think it's not good in this deck. It causes life-loss, kills land, it forces discard, and it kills creatures. (a) Life-loss is fine. (b) I run fewer Moxen than my opponent, so its LD aspect will likely hurt me more than my opponent. Add to this the fact that I'm already running 9 land destruction effects, and it's almost certain to be unfavorable. (c) I run many more creatures than my opponent, so it will hurt there, too. And (d) the discard effect may affect us about even. Decks that can outdraw me (remember, Brainstorm is just a very good cantrip, no actual CA) tend to be combo decks, and these play out their hands (Moxen, ritual mana) quickly.

It just seems like it does too many things, and not enough favorable ones for me, to be the well-calibrated slice of disruption this deck survives on. It's random. Can I also point out that for BBB I could be getting Necropotence, which this deck can't at the moment even find room for? And that the most reliable way to get BBB is first turn Ritual, but Poxing then is a terrible move both on the play and on the draw, and there is always a better way to use BBB in such a situation?

Thanks for bringing it up, though, I love old Pox. It's such an interesting study in how sometimes doing more than one thing really restricts a card's deckbuilding possibilities. This card does so many things, so many important things, that it really needs to be the prom queen or it's just going to be random.

Eric

And is Ankh of Mishra worth SBing, or is even the 5 damage it provides against fetches negligible in this super-fast environment, and it should rather be something with an immediate impact on the game (Null Rod, Wasteland, etc.).

As for Aether Vial, here are the rationalizations I have so far:

(1) It hurts Chalice at 1.
(2) It helps Chalice at 2.
(3) If I run it I should up the Fiends to 4.
(4) If I run it I could replace a few Swamps (up to 2, maybe) but this makes them dangerously low, and I might have to rethink Hymn and Sinkhole at that point.
(5) I have never played them in Vintage. Without real answers to Null Rod and Pithing Needle except pre-Chalicing to 2 or 1 respectively, how well could this deck utilize them? It seems to me that Vial Fish works because it has a ridiculously dense chunk of utility, which my deck has none of. Rod or Needle kill me.
(6) I wouldn't use more than 2, because I would still want to be able to side into Null Rod.
(7) It might be worth looking into Skittering Skirge.
(8) It might be worth looking into SB Nether Void (not simply becoming Void).
(9) It might be worth making my creatures actually have some semblance of a curve (trying out 4x 1cc creature, adding the fourth Hyppie)-- but what the hell could it be? Sarcomancy, the best 1cc 'creature' for black, isn't a creature! Carnophage sucks. Martyr of Bones < Wretch).
(10) This might just make my deck Fish, in which case of course this is worse than U/W. Unless I want to invent worse-than-worse-than-Fish, maybe I shouldn't run Vial.
(11) It's not like my creatures are hard to cast anyway.
(12) They're pretty even as far as threats go, and all my other cards are threats too. The most counter-heavy decks in Vintage run 12 counters. My 4 Duress, 2 Fiend account for 6. So I'm dealing with an opposing deck with 6 counters. Playing Vial (if I get it active, etc.) will just make my disruption more vulnerable to countering, which isn't good (especially for Chalice, which is important to get down for at least zero or one in the first three turns). What I'm saying is, this deck has already been built around playing all its threats as opposed to sneaking them into play. Vial helps U/W because it has a much higher density of come-into-play abilities and special abilities that are really important to resolve/sneak in-- with 4 Confidant and 4 Negator, I just beat down more.

Eric

I'm not saying either strategy is actually that strong, just that the disruption route is generally more consistent and in keeping with the deck's strength. Tinker is undercosted and DSC is the perfect card to break it, there's no doubt that this is a card that is more powerful than any card in my deck. However, there is only one copy of it. Tutors find it, and sometimes put it on top of the library, which is a problem. So I go after the tutors. Brainstorm hides those, so I go after Brainstorm and blue mana sources in general.

And I disagree that Edict is good in most matchups. In this deck, it's just not. There are possible Edict targets in most decks, but that doesn't mean Edict is not this deck's correct answer. The most usual creatures, and this deck's pre-board correct answer (as I see it now):

Welder : Wretch

Confidant : Confidant (and in a more general sense, Their draw : my disruption)

DSC : Denying Tinker long enough to win

Oath's Akroma/Razia/ridiculousness : Denying Oath

Fish's fishies : Hippie (flies); disruption

Postboard I have Contagions for Bobs and Welders, Null Rod to further screw the Tinker play, Edict for Collossus (in addition to, not instead of, the disruption), Edict and possibly Dystopia for Oath, probably Null Rods too, and Contagion/Masticore for Fish.

My point is that Edict looks great on paper. And in practice it is good, but only if it complements the deck's existing ethos, not if it replaces it. This deck can't become reactive. It needs proactive disruption, which constitutes 'answers' in a looser sense. Since the Collossus play is so devastating it also helps to pack Edicts as reactive answers post-board, but not at the expense of denying the play to begin with. Again, it's not that they're dead. It's that they are self-defeating in so many matchups-- by making me not disrupt, but rather wait, I invite more problems than they can handle to begin with.

@oneofchaos: I agree. Royal Assassin? Arena over Bob? What the heck?


Eric

I am not counting Fiend. His creature-ness is a bonus, especially since Vintage is light on removal, but he's mainly Duresses 5 and 6 here. Running him over Cabal Therapy because he costs 2 (Chalice concerns), and because he beats a little.

I'm considering 4 Leyline.


Edicts are good in lots of situations. Especially if I ditch Dystopia, they're my only Oath slots. And I could also have a Demonic Tutor in hand after sideboarding, assuming Tinker doesn't happen turn 1.


3 Edicts/1 Demonic in games two and three is going to have to do it. Other than that I'm banking on nabbing Tinker/Tutor before 2U is up, which is a stronger strategy anyway than just siding in three reactive spells. I mean, I'm already worried about how siding into the Edicts/Demonic water down the disruption strategy. There's a point at which you hurt yourself by allowing for the situation you're sideboarding for to happen at all.

Other playstyle considerations--

(1) If you want to drop Sinkhole, the best bet would be 3x Chains and beefing up the creatures (probably 3x Fiend).
(2) It's possible to switch the numbers of Specter and Fiend. A little more right-now impact, a little less punch and advantage in longer games.
(3) If you play in a metagame where Chalicing for 1 is not as strong a play, replace Hymn with Therapies. Also consider Aether Vial, and Pithing Needle in the board.
(4) Sinkhole can be replaced by 3x Null Rod, 1x CoW. This also changes the deck a bit, more Fishlike which gives it better midgame, less Sui-like which make it even more vulnerable to a topdeck.

Eric

Okay, I decided:

+2 Mesmeric Fiend / -1 Demonic Tutor, -1 Withered Wretch

And the SB:

+1 Demonic Tutor/ -1 Contagion

So now I have Fiend in addition to both Sinkhole and Hymn, at the expense of a little gyard hate consistency game one, and de-gogglez Tutor (zey do nothing!). Zey do something post-baord, though, so D.Tut. stays in to fetch my hate in the back two.

You might be right about the fetches. I'll have to think it through some more. I will say though that I'm almost certainly not going to be comfortable with eight.

I am also seriously considering replacing Shade with Hyppie. Reasoning:

(a) To be effective, Shade comes out late, effectively making their casting costs equivalent
(b) With Mesmeric Fiend the deck is tilting toward more controllish, and Hyppies would further that, assigning even more power to Negator as the finisher (not that swinging for 2 is negligible, anyway)
(c) I am starting to agree with whoever said before that "all your extra mana should go to Wretch anyway"
(d) I am in love with Swamp, Ritual, Hyppie on the play, especially with this deck's strongest turn 2.
(e) Makes me less susceptible to Chalice @ 2, which helps when I really need to make that play myself if I can (read: Oath), as well as when my opponent tries to hate me out (Workshop variants, Stax at times).

I think that the reason Shade was so good (and I believe he was) for Legend Black was that Legend Black played at a time when aggro-vs-control games tended to last for a while. If aggro didn't score the knockout punch early, Shade cleaned up like a champ, and provided a possible answer to what control ran as a finisher-- Morphling. Nowadays, by way of contradistinction, control decks have combo wins-- Tendrils + lots of spells, Welder + Slaver, Tinker + artifact = DSC. These are the types of endings that (1) don't involve creatures (well, I think we can hardly call DSC a creature in the sense that Shade could be any sort of answer!); (2) can happen much earlier than a Morphling; (3) win much more rapidly than Morphling; (4) provide more immediate board control than a Morphling. In short, I don't think games drag on anymore, even aggro-vs-control games. Aggro-v-combo games even less so. As for aggro-v-aggro, while Shade can take out weenie armies, so can Chalice (preboard) and Masticore/Contagion (post-). And like you point out, aggro barely exists in Vintage. Workshop was practically an auto-loss anyway, I don't think replacing Shade with Specter changes the matchup much. Chalice murders Sligh and Stompy, no need for Shade in those.

I also decided to cut a Swamp for that all-necessary fourth Wretch, especially after (a) Fiends give me more ways that a one-swamp, one-other-land hand are keepable; (b) Confidant fixes lands; (c) Wretch rocks; (d) I like making lists.

Here would be the new decklist:

//Creatures (17)
4 Confidant
4 Negator
4 Wretch
3 Hyppie
2 Fiend

//Disruption (16)
4 Chalice
4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole

//Consistency (1)
Consult

//Mana (26)
1 Ring
1 Strip
1 Petal
4 Ritual
4 Waste
15 Swamp

//Sideboard (15)
3 Edict
2 Contagion
2 Masticore
2 Null Rod
2 Dystopia
2 Coffin Purge
1 Planar Void
1 D. Tutor

The benefit of this list is, I think, that it has the highest threat density of any list I've come up with yet. Every single creature is must-kill, and what with Vintage running almost no creature removal, and the rest of my strategy specifically designed to pre-empt countermagic, countering all my creatures is not possible either. So some creatures get through. I also like Mesmeric Fiend, because it's either a Duress on legs (unbelievably good); or else my opponent has to remove it, wasting a spell that now cannot be used on Hyppie, Negator, Confidant, Wretch, which are controlling the board. It's also an immediate-impact card, with possible card-disadvantage or mere 1-for-1 trade, as opposed to Hyppie, which has possible card-advantage or mere 1-for-1 trade. But together, these two creatures work wonders. Let's say I play one of each. Whichever stays on has taken a pretty big chunk out of my opponent's strategy. Duress's effect is just so strong that even a crappy little 1/1 which only does the effect conditionally turns out to be able to cut it here. It's also nice that this deck now has six ways to check out the opponent's hand, 4 of them turn one (or 6 with Petal/Ritual) for checking the appropriate Chalice number.

One reason Hyppie was good in old Suicide builds is that it served as a "Lightning Rod" to allow the other creatures in FTW. Basically here we have a Sui deck where all the creatures are Lightning Rods for various reasons.

As a side effect, Pyroclasm is a pretty big problem now. But that's the sort of card I go after early with Duress, Duress-on-legs, Hymn, denying red mana, and playing my creatures carefully.

Eric

Ankh of Mishra also makes fetchlands equal personal Beacon of Destructions to the head. Not saying it's that played, but I think that if the meta goes on like this too long, dedicated fetch hate will start really meaning something.

I want a lot of mana because it's the only way Negator is playable against aggro, because it makes Shade a lot better, and because this deck actually plays a low Swamp-count to begin with, what with all the Strip effects and Rituals. Once I Chalice for 1, Ritual is out the window. I really need those third and fourth Swamps. I have fifteen {B}-costed cards! That's a quarter of the deck!

I'm glad you see Will the same way. I'm concentrating right now on honing the Chalice-at-one synergies in the deck. Rethinking Demonic, too. Consultation is definitely > it here, but is Tutor still worth running? With 2-ofs, 3-ofs, and even a 1-of in the sideboard, I think it's most useful post-sideboard, and since 2/3 of games are post-sideboard, it's a useful card. I should really find room for it in the SB, though. Ironically, if I swapped it with a SB card/another singleton, suddenly I would need it again, to find that card! Sheesh.

I am reconsidering Mesmeric Fiends. They would replace Sinkholes or Hymns. Sinkholes most likely, as this would then give me twelve great hand-destruction cards at the expense of some early tempo. It would up my creature count. It would down my {B}-costing count. All good things. However-- I love Sinkhole! When this deck has the ability to be (post SB): 4 Sinkhole, 4 Wasteland, 2 Null Rod, 4 Chalice, 1 Strip Mine . . . it just eats Vintage manabases alive. And I want to minimize Pyroclasm's effect on the deck. I don't want this to turn into Black Fish, I want to be faster and more powerful and more inconsistent than that! Shorter games. I don't want to get caught in too much Fish-hate crossfire.

What if I could fit in Mesmeric Fiend in addition to Sinkholes? Keeping my mana denial strategy intact, but upping the hand denial strategy that is so powerful today? Knowing the contents of opponents' hands is ridiculous advantage. I could re-cut a Wretch, cut Demonic, and cut . . . something else, for three Fiend. Demonic Tutor's post-SB strength is the main thing stopping me from doing this.

Eric

Okay, so I made the -1 Swamp/+1 Consultation move. Happy so far.

I had a big thought this morning. Under Chalice for 1, Yawgmoth's Will sucks. Even if I were playing a Jet and a Lotus and a Petal, that's only two cards guaranteed to be in my yard, and one more if the Mox was killed somehow (but usually they're just Null Rodded). And that's only if I don't also/alternatively have a Chalice at zero, which I often do. Honestly, once I realized that this deck's strongest play is a Chalice for 1, or a Chalice for zero and then a Chalice for 1, I rethought Will. Cutting it would give me room for the fourth Wretch, upping my gyard hate count to seven post-board (+1 P. Void, +2 Coffin Purge), not counting two tutors and Bob draw. Suicide has got to keep up the hate, or else lose, and right now graveyard hate is important. Plus, more creatures = good.

Thoughts on + 1 Wretch/ - 1 Yawgmoth's Will?

Eric

It's unnecessary life-loss (in a deck somewhat committed to life as a resource) and susceptibility to Stifle and other fetch-hate.

And this deck wants to continue to draw lands all game. Negator and Shade mandate it.

And thinning the deck of lands makes Bob hurt more.

Believe me, this is a deck where, in the right circumstance, a Swamp is a great topdeck. Especially as a Bob card.

Eric

Well, I'm not opposed to a challenge to Sinkhole. I don't want to include cards simply because tradition mandates them. But I happen to like Sinkhole in the deck.

As for its weakness v. Misdirection, it's not an issue. Why? Because Misdirected Hymns are much more of a problem, so you often use Sinkholes to bait out Misds. if you don't have the Duress. And if you think about it, it's not card disadvantage (2-for-2 trade). This deck runs a lot of mana, because the early game is most important, and because Negator hurts sometimes, so a Misdirected Sinkhole is quite recoverable.

Re: weakness against Combo, well, 4x Chalice of the Void help a lot. I know they're no lock, but Chalice for zero is still a very strong move on the play against any deck, and is still a great option on the draw against Moxen/Lotus/LED/Petal-abusing combo. Chalice for one is also the sort of play I make as soon as I possibly, as I almost always cut off more cards for my opponent than for me.

Re: graveyard hate, I've got 3x Wretch mainboard, with the prospect of siding in 3x Coffin Purge and 1x Planar Void. Along with the disruption strategy in general (Duress, Hymn, Sinkhole, Wasteland, Strip Mine, Chalice), which is no fun for any deck, I feel this gives Sui game against combo-- about as good game as you can expect from aggro. Suicide's big weakness has always been jank/unexpected aggro (embarrassing); anything with a good amount of direct damage; and finely-tuned fast aggro, especially packing fast artifacts that aren't susceptible to Null Rod (Workshop, and it used to be Sligh in the pre-Chalice days).

Contagion v Darkblast. So far I'm sticking with Contagion. Welder is not the only concern here-- Darkblast isn't combat manipulation to the extent that Contagion is; Darkblast doesn't pitch Chaliced cards; and Darkblast can't be played under a Chalice at 1, which this deck right now loves to do. I just think I can stand the possibility of taking 5 damage in a turn, especially since the matchups where I'm siding in Contagion tend to be those in which I'm siding out Negators. I like the Darkblast/Confidant trick, as well as Darkblast's low cc, but Chalicing at one is too good a turn 1/turn 2 play (before I even now, perhaps, whether I have a Darkblast coming up). As for the Mana Drain issue, I would think twice before siding Contagion in against these decks; and they tend to not be the decks I would want to do so against anyhow. Anyway, to wrap up, I think Contagion's extra versatility and ability to work with Chalice and Chaliced cards is the eventual winner. Darkblast was great for Pikula because his main metagame concern is Goblins, where the low toughness is the biggest concern, and where a recurring threat is needed. In Vintage, there are very few decks that swarm with x/1's and x/2's besides Fish, and my Fish SBing is +3 Contagion, +2 Masticore, as I hope to just keep the same decklist and overrun them with my big creatures. Darkblast would be better in that matchup, yes, but Contagion is better in pretty much any other, as well as going a long way in the 'unexpected/jank aggro' matchup.


Does anyone have any ideas as to how to fit in a fourth Wretch maindeck? I have been drawing him consistently, with a three-of maindeck plus Confidant draw power, but oftentimes if my opponent counters one he gets a two or three-turn window to abuse the graveyard game one, if that's his deck's 'thing.' For reference, my current decklist again--

//Creatures
4 Confidant
4 Negator
3 Wretch
3 Shade

//Disruption
4 Chalice
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn
4 Duress

//Broken
Will
Tutor

//Mana
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Strip Mine
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
17 Swamp

//SB
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Contagion
2 Masticore
2 Null Rod
2 Dystopia
2 Coffin Purge
1 Planar Void

I would also really like a way to fit in Demonic Consultation again, for added consistency and a tenth one-drop (not counting Sol Ring, Strip Mine/Wasteland, or Chalice). I suppose I could cut one Swamp (Consultation=Swamp in a pinch). Incidentally, Consultation can sort of be the fourth Wretch in the matchup(s) where resolving him determines the outcome of the game. What does everyone think?

Thanks,
Eric

Does Contagion still work in the SB, considering Confidant hurts for 5? The only other option seems to be Darkblast. Darkblast is much worse with Chalice; however, it only deals 1 off Confidant, and you can Dredge a Confidant draw for various reasons. Darkblast also doesn't affect power as much, which matters when I"m trying to run over a somewhat decent-sized creature with a Negator. Or buying a turn vs. DSC.

Contagion also puts Chaliced cards to use. Ack.

Eric

I understand where you're coming from on Sinkhole. It's clunky. But I run it because it has very high potential in combination with the other cards in the deck. Since every deck craves mana, mana-screwing someone is so very awesome. To get into a situation where I have three lands out and I've just Sunk my opponent's last land, and then to watch him/her topdeck a non-mana card . . .

I suggest that, specific matchups aside (speaking in general), Sinkhole is a terrible card 10% of the time; a bad card 30% of the time; a decent card another 10%, say; a good card 30% of the time; and a practically game-winning good card 20% of the time. It's because of the last 20% that it's worth running-- there are certainly other cards that are good close to 100% of the time. However, these cards are never game-winners. Sinkhole is also just as good for intimidation factor-- it forces mulligans on hands that opponents facing nonSinkhole decks would gladly keep.

Simpy put, my rationale is that one of the three is true for each Sinkhole--

(1) Sinkhole is excellent, sealing the game or generating unrecoverable tempo for me.

(2) Sinkhole is a terrible card, which may as well read "BB : Lose your turn."

(3) Sinkhole is this vanilla waste-of-a-deck-space card, that sort of negates its own created tempo by costing too much or eating up my turn.

Now I've already said that I think (1) happens thrice as often as (2) with this deck. This deck is made to maximize (1). As for (3), it happens twice as often as the other two combined, in my estimation, which is what, I think, generates your overall feeling that there are lots of better choices. Now my contention is that the benefits of (1) outweigh the more consistently flavorless (3) output and the detrimental (2) output combined. I just think that when it's good, it's that good.

Not that any of this is 'true,' it's just how I look at it. And how I play the deck.

Eric

I agree with the previous two posters as regards your metagame. However, on the offchance that you asked which to play based not on win percentage but on gameplay--

Oath, as you probably know, is a combo deck based around resolving an Oath of Druids. Forbidden Orchard in the manabase ensures its activation upon your next upkeep, and the deck usually packs 1x Razia, Boros Archangel and 1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath as its creature-base. A single Gaea's Blessing prevents decking should you Oath with no creatures in library, facilitating the ultra-low creature count which, incidentally, guarantees that you get a whopper. The entire rest of the deck is devoted to making sure that

(a) Oath resolves.
(b) Oath stays in play.
(c) You don't end up with your two creatures in your hand.

One of Oath's best cards is Brainstorm, which lets you dig for countermagic and Oath, and provides (along with fetchlands, especially) a convenient way to re-stash accidentally drawn creatures.

The fun of playing Oath is that you can play with the creatures which are best when mana-cost is not considered, because you don't have to pay their manacost! Oath's very small set of combo parts allows for much manipulation and countermagic in the mainboard, keeping you ready for pretty much anything. The sideboard features a few silver-bullet creatures as well as some more utility answers (like Chain of Vapor) to hate that Oath faces. It's the typical budget deck in Vintage, and has gotten a reputation for being mindlessly easy to play. As with many rumors, not true, of course. There are many nuances, especially around mulliganing intelligently and using Brainstorm to its fullest.

I don't know as much about U/W Fish. But the Fish archetype in general revolves around controlling the game from the onset with lots of countermagic in the form of both spells and creatures. The reason it works is that it's just one big slushpile of synergy and subtle card advantage that grinds many decks down, eventually winning by attacking with 2/2s and 1/1s! It is a fantastic deck playing with individually terrible cards-- know what I mean? It relies on generically useful cards like Stifle to answer pretty much any roadblock. I think its learning curve starts considerably higher than Oath's, but when you get down to it any deck can become better in the hands of a superb player.

Sorry if some of that was a little basic. Or if that's not even what you are thinking about when deciding between the two. But gameplay-wise, that's my summary.

Eric

What exactly is your metagame, then? Since it's obviously very different from a generic Vintage meta, knowing it would help us determine the best card choices for you.

Eric

Thanks for posting that. It's interesting to see that more than a few people have similar builds of this Chalice/Sui thingy. I have a few questions about the mechanics of your list.

(1) How did such a low Swamp count work out for you?

(2) How was Chains? Obviously good, but worth cutting Sinkholes?

(3) Without part of your mana denial package, was 3 Spheres out of the board still an effective strategy?

(4) How did you handle the graveyard? I see 2 MD Wretches. What would you bring in against, say, Ichorid? Dragon? You have one more tutor than me, but one fewer Wretch. Could you find him when you needed him game 1?

(5) What's the plan against Oath?


re: Chains v Sinkhole: I like the deck's ability to cut off mana or mana-screw opponents, which goes way down when you've only got 4 Waste, 1 Strip. I know Crucible and fetches are everywhere, but as for the first, I can side into whatever would be better against the deck than Sinkhole; and as for the second, I think the point has been overstated a bit. Yes, they're everywhere, but people also play with 'real' lands to fetch, oftentimes actually drawing said lands. Also, if they ever plan to use those fetches, they'd better crack them eventually, and when they do -- Sinkhole. Of course, this is not optimal as it makes me wait a whole turn to use it, but this isn't as big a problem as it sounds. If I have a hand where my only turn 2 play (turn 1 w/accel.) is Sinkhole, I should not have kept it. My deck runs 19 2cc spells, not counting Chalice for 1.

That said, Chains/Confidant is nasty. It seems like a case of weakening the deck in general to improve bya good margin a bunch of matches. So the metagame matters a lot in that decision.

Eric

A few things I forgot before---

(a) I agree that Zuran Orb is a great addition. No cost, and this deck generates card advantage. A terrible card to see in your opening hand outside of accompanying a Tinker, though, but it would be one of very few cards in the deck like that.

(b) Have you considered Ensnaring Bridge? I feel that's better than Propaganda in every way. Works with Workshops; no specific mana. And you only need to really hold three or four cards in hand-- Vintage beaters are small, or else DSC. (Oath aside.) And holding back some cards can't be a problem for this deck, you have plenty to do with CoW and Fastbond making your sacrifice abilities recurrent. I mean, I haven't played this deck or anything, but I would imagine you go into the midgame with plenty of cards in hand, and that despite playing optimally, probably end the game with as many-- unuseful tutors, extra lands, etc. No? Even if this is not entirely true, it may be worth tweaking the deck to allow Bridge at least as a SB option.

Reading other people's suggestions and thinking a little more, I had a sort of overarching idea. This deck seems to me like it wants to win by sheer attrition-- it's like 65% one-for-one traders or symmetric disruption (Strip Mine, Duress, Sinkhole, Wire [well, Wire is a little better than symmetric]); then it's got 10% worth of extreme card advantage which works well with the disruption (Crucible, Fastbond); the other 25% is making sure these card advantage engines get out, so that you always come out on top of the war of attrition. And since you're fighting the war with mana, the most basic need of any deck, it's a decent strategy.

This idea brings more light to the reasons why Mana Drain does not work. This deck should be content to go into turn three or four with ANY two lands, while its opponent has only one or none. It can't sustain {UU} over the course of a game, let alone an open {UU}. The same logic makes me reconsider Sinkhole. I share Lochinvar's concern about your manabase. You could certainly find room for a few more specific-producing lands, so as to get at least one of each basic in there as your first fetches. Also, consider Shadow of Doubt over Sinkhole. Easier to cast here (especially when you consider that the chances of a Mox helping double as opposed to Sinkhole), and just as effective at denying mana. As a bonus it is pretty utility later on in games you may not be winning, tempo-wise. Shadowing a Tinker, D. Tutor, or the like is equivalent to countering the respective threats these searchers enable.

Lastly (for now), there has got to be a way to fit 4x Chalice in there. It's so good. Seriously. Chalice for 1 doesn't hurt if you've got either Fastbond or the Vise out already, especially since the primary method of bounce in Vintage (Chain of V.) costs one itself. Chalice for 2 looks to be an even better option. However, at this point you're spending 4 for the thing, so if that turns out to be the primary reason to run Chalice, it would be better to run Sphere of Resistance instead. Seeing as you've got jewelry (Moxen, Lotus), Chalice for 0 isn't a great play either. Maybe check out Sphere, then, unless you change the deck to accomodate Chalice (which could be a good move). Sphere matches up with Workshop's amount, too.

Why not run one copy of Ghost Quarter, too? Lots of Vintage decks have been getting away with running about 3 basics in their deck. That means that after three turns of Quarter (even if you don't yet have Strip), Quarter = Strip, buying you time to find Strip to get those basics (or you can Sink 'em!). Some decks don't even run basics at all. I saw this Madness deck that did surprisingly well in a tournament a few months ago, running 3x Ghostly Quarter. You look at the manabases, even the Top 8, and you realize why. Also, Quarter + Shadow of Doubt is good tech in a pinch-- you know, to get those last few Vise points in? Or DSC's final swing? Just a thought. Singleton for minimal commitment, although I would suggest upping Crop Rotation to two, especially if you also decide to run Wasteland. You could get away with 3x Wasteland, 1x Shadow in the Sinkhole spot, then Shadow of Doubt in the Drain spot, if you could find a way to get another Rotation in there. You really don't want to have to tutor for a tutor, you know?

Eric

(1) With so many tutors (including Tinker if needed, esp. post-board if you side more out), 4 Crucibles is surely incorrect. Three at most seems tenable. It's not the sort of card you want to get more than one of. Null Rod doesn't affect it, Pithing Needle doesn't affect it, it's out of Chalice range, and few people play Powder Kegs because of those other two cards. The main way it will be dealt with is bounce. The only other way I could think is Extraction, which doesn't care how many you're playing. There's your Trinisphere slot, at least.

(2) Replace Sinkhole with Wasteland. This is Vintage. Not only is Wasteland very close to as good as Strip Mine in Vintage, but Sinkhole stretches your deck's specific mana requirements and is counterable and -- just as importantly -- Misdirectable. Don't worry about Wasteland giving you colorless mana-- you build your manabase 66% thinking that you'll never tap Waste for a colorless, and 33% banking on it when you must. Anyhow, you have Tangle Wire and Crucible (and Trinisphere if you cut a Crucible) if it comes down to a slightly bad hand.  Wasteland comes online right away, too. First turn, if for some reason that's a good play (when Dragon drops a Bazaar, say, or when you also have Moxen/Lotus/Ring). In short, Wasteland is better than Sinkhole in every way, especially because it gives your manabase a boost without sacrificing mana denial. It's really close to Strips 2-5. Wasteland over Sinkhole also increases Fastbond's power in the deck, allowing you to Waste + play a land, or even Strip + Waste + play a land, each turn!

(3) I don't really understand Mana Drain here. It doesn't work as early acceleration, because it's not up turn 1 very often, and on turn two you should have drawn into Workshop or a way to get Workshop (any of your six tutors (five black ones, plus Rotation)). Add in Ancestral and that's 11 ways to get Workshop.The only spells you could realistically hope to 'accelerate' out after Draining turn two are Crucible and Tangle Wire, and you could have played them once you drop your third land anyhow! Are you finding that you usually have the {BB} for Sinkhole? If so, I would go with that in Drain's place.

(4) Factories would be better than Propaganda if you're worried about the random one or two creatures escaping your lock. They can take out x/3's on defense (and honestly, what in Vintage is bigger than that? Unless it's way bigger and we're talking DSC?), and come back with CoW. This would further ensure that you always have mana when you need it, too. Propaganda could be a SB choice, though.

Maybe more later . . . I'm mulling.

Regards,
Eric